Slow Motion Video

iChen

Semi-Pro
this whole pat-the-dog thing effs me up on high balls :( especially in point-play :(
in practice - I consciously control the swing plane, and keep the RH above the palm ...
but in point play ... I tend to drop the RH : and make a mess of those shoulder level shots :(

(I am not even talking about frozen legs that cause me to take those shots shoulder level and above)

sigh ...
I’ll let someone more knowledgeable than me like @J011yroger or @nytennisaddict give the correct answer. But what I do is the same movement but just a little higher depending on height of ball. If need be I generally jump to hit shoulder height. I feel like it’s just muscle memory and repeat in match play.
 
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tlm

G.O.A.T.
this whole pat-the-dog thing effs me up on high balls :( especially in point-play :(
in practice - I consciously control the swing plane, and keep the RH above the palm ...
but in point play ... I tend to drop the RH : and make a mess of those shoulder level shots :(

(I am not even talking about frozen legs that cause me to take those shots shoulder level and above)

sigh ...
That's why I love to hit shots that get above my opponents shoulders.
 

iChen

Semi-Pro
this whole pat-the-dog thing effs me up on high balls :( especially in point-play :(
in practice - I consciously control the swing plane, and keep the RH above the palm ...
but in point play ... I tend to drop the RH : and make a mess of those shoulder level shots :(

(I am not even talking about frozen legs that cause me to take those shots shoulder level and above)

sigh ...
Found this video interesting at 1:48

 
D

Deleted member 120290

Guest
this whole pat-the-dog thing effs me up on high balls :( especially in point-play :(
in practice - I consciously control the swing plane, and keep the RH above the palm ...
but in point play ... I tend to drop the RH : and make a mess of those shoulder level shots :(

(I am not even talking about frozen legs that cause me to take those shots shoulder level and above)

sigh ...
On high FH's, think of patting this dog:
 

dimkin

Hall of Fame
That's why I love to hit shots that get above my opponents shoulders.
it's effective.

I've been selecting playing partners that hit with a ton of top lately as to get more practice ... and in practice - things are seamless,
matchplay, old habits take over ... need more reps
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
this whole pat-the-dog thing effs me up on high balls :( especially in point-play :(
in practice - I consciously control the swing plane, and keep the RH above the palm ...
but in point play ... I tend to drop the RH : and make a mess of those shoulder level shots :(

(I am not even talking about frozen legs that cause me to take those shots shoulder level and above)

sigh ...
Nobody said it would be easy.

J
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
this whole pat-the-dog thing effs me up on high balls :( especially in point-play :(
in practice - I consciously control the swing plane, and keep the RH above the palm ...
but in point play ... I tend to drop the RH : and make a mess of those shoulder level shots :(

(I am not even talking about frozen legs that cause me to take those shots shoulder level and above)

sigh ...
The purpose of pat-the-dog is to pronate the arm at the start of the forward swing. If the racquet face is pointing to the ground on a waist high ball, the same pronation wil cause the racquet face to point more upward toward the side fence depending on how high the incoming ball is.
 

Wise one

Hall of Fame
Found this video interesting at 1:48

Just awful. Balls land way too short, too much spin. Remember, depth is more important than spin.

Hitting from back foot too often. No variety in shots. Just awful!

Who is the moron teaching him?
 
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Bobby Jr

G.O.A.T.
It depends on what you think a "good job" is.....

It is much more inefficient and takes far more effort to be "self-taught" to reach a certain level. A coach can teach proper fundamental progressions which optimize the rate of learning. The other big benefit of learning proper fundamentals and foundation from a coach is that it can prevent injury. That is a big plus in tennis.
This ^.

The key thing which holds self-taught players back is a general inability to recognise what they're doing (even with videos of themselves) which needs to be focused on and, similarly, what parts of pro videos they should take inspiration from.

This is precisely why TLM, respectfully, looks like he was encouraged by the obvious flare of outrageous forehands seen online when it was the basic, core parts of the technique which needed to be looked at most. This wouldn't happen if a coach was used more during the formative learning period and why, after years of practice, his strokes still look basically the same as before give or take a few conscious changes. The basic stroke is the same as I'm sure they also are for @ByeByePoly.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
This ^.

The key thing which holds self-taught players back is a general inability to recognise what they're doing (even with videos of themselves) which needs to be focused on and, similarly, what parts of pro videos they should take inspiration from.

This is precisely why TLM, respectfully, looks like he was encouraged by the obvious flare of outrageous forehands seen online when it was the basic, core parts of the technique which needed to be looked at most. This wouldn't happen if a coach was used more during the formative learning period and why, after years of practice, his strokes still look basically the same as before give or take a few conscious changes. The basic stroke is the same as I'm sure they also are for @ByeByePoly.
I never watched pro video when I was learning. I took some lessons early on from a traditional teaching coach that had me hitting eastern grip with closed stance and racket back early. I had little success with this method, I would either hit the net or hit long.

Then I watched the Oscar Wegner instructional videos and there I learned to hit topspin. That is when tennis became fun, I could now swing out and keep the ball in. From that point on I just played a lot and learned to hit more topspin. I found that by closing my grip more I could swing harder and keep my shots in the court. I probably took the brushing and topspin technique to the extreme but I loved the control that all the topspin gives.

This had nothing to do with any flare of pro players forehand videos, I was out playing all the time not watching videos. My opponents have commented that my forehand has changed and improved a lot over the last few years. I can hit through the court much better than in the past, now I still hit high looping shots but can also hit flatter faster shots through the court.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
I never watched pro video when I was learning. I took some lessons early on from a traditional teaching coach that had me hitting eastern grip with closed stance and racket back early. I had little success with this method, I would either hit the net or hit long.

Then I watched the Oscar Wegner instructional videos and there I learned to hit topspin. That is when tennis became fun, I could now swing out and keep the ball in. From that point on I just played a lot and learned to hit more topspin. I found that by closing my grip more I could swing harder and keep my shots in the court. I probably took the brushing and topspin technique to the extreme but I loved the control that all the topspin gives.

This had nothing to do with any flare of pro players forehand videos, I was out playing all the time not watching videos. My opponents have commented that my forehand has changed and improved a lot over the last few years. I can hit through the court much better than in the past, now I still hit high looping shots but can also hit flatter faster shots through the court.
Don't listen to the nonsense ... your strokes (and that rock body :D) improved. You sound a lot like me, you seek out information from whatever source you can. You decided for yourself if the information is 1) something you want to include in your game 2) something you agree or disagree with. They really don't want to come at us with the bs "I'm an expert, just listen to me or you are destined to be a lifetime pusher. Believe me.". What's the worse that could happen ... we spent hours on the tennis court we love trying to improve but didn't improve. I call that a win ... you had me at "hours on the tennis court". Have you noticed we have quality instructors here that do offer advice? They either think it is useful, or they are just f***ing with us. I wouldn't put that second one past Sinjin.

You know what is really funny with all this stroke discussion? As far as winning or losing, the ability to "run/move" matters WAY more than our perfect strokes, or how much spin or pace, particularly in singles. I used to beat several of the 4.0 guys I play now 6-3ish ... sometimes worse. Now 5 years later, I lost a step, and they are running better than I am. Now it's a lot more even. Our games didn't change much ... their legs just lasted longer. :confused:
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Don't listen to the nonsense ... your strokes (and that rock body :D) improved. You sound a lot like me, you seek out information from whatever source you can. You decided for yourself if the information is 1) something you want to include in your game 2) something you agree or disagree with. They really don't want to come at us with the bs "I'm an expert, just listen to me or you are destined to be a lifetime pusher. Believe me.". What's the worse that could happen ... we spent hours on the tennis court we love trying to improve but didn't improve. I call that a win ... you had me at "hours on the tennis court". Have you noticed we have quality instructors here that do offer advice? They either think it is useful, or they are just f***ing with us. I wouldn't put that second one past Sinjin.

You know what is really funny with all this stroke discussion? As far as winning or losing, the ability to "run/move" matters WAY more than our perfect strokes, or how much spin or pace, particularly in singles. I used to beat several of the 4.0 guys I play now 6-3ish ... sometimes worse. Now 5 years later, I lost a step, and they are running better than I am. Now it's a lot more even. Our games didn't change much ... their legs just lasted longer. :confused:
You make some good points here. Your right trying to improve or maintain our movement is probably the most important thing to help our game.
I read that in one of these threads where someone pointed out that many of us are way to concerned about perfect stroke mechanics and we should be working on improving footwork.

I have been running more and I just purchased an agility ladder and have been using it. Wow those ladder drills are tough, you talk about feeling like a clod. When I started I called it the non agility drills lol. I am getting better but still have a long way to go, I can see where these ladder drills can help my footwork for tennis.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
This ^.

The key thing which holds self-taught players back is a general inability to recognise what they're doing (even with videos of themselves) which needs to be focused on and, similarly, what parts of pro videos they should take inspiration from.

This is precisely why TLM, respectfully, looks like he was encouraged by the obvious flare of outrageous forehands seen online when it was the basic, core parts of the technique which needed to be looked at most. This wouldn't happen if a coach was used more during the formative learning period and why, after years of practice, his strokes still look basically the same as before give or take a few conscious changes. The basic stroke is the same as I'm sure they also are for @ByeByePoly.
"The key thing which holds self-taught players back is a general inability to recognise what they're doing (even with videos of themselves) which needs to be focused on and, similarly, what parts of pro videos they should take inspiration from.

You could make your case better if you listed the things tlm an me are failing to recognize. Not only that, it might really help us. That's what many of us are doing here, working on our game. We have instructors here give advice. Please join the fray.

I can tell you what I look for with the pro video ... checkpoints. I don't try and copy a pro player stroke. But with slow motion HD video, I can learn from stances, coil positions at backswing, look for common elements across pro swings, etc.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
You make some good points here. Your right trying to improve or maintain our movement is probably the most important thing to help our game.
I read that in one of these threads where someone pointed out that many of us are way to concerned about perfect stroke mechanics and we should be working on improving footwork.

I have been running more and I just purchased an agility ladder and have been using it. Wow those ladder drills are tough, you talk about feeling like a clod. When I started I called it the non agility drills lol. I am getting better but still have a long way to go, I can see where these ladder drills can help my footwork for tennis.
LOL ... you missed my point. I'm not talking about working :confused: on movement. I'm talking about "born with" movement, and "how much of it I still have left". Let's put it this way, I have running down better than hitting a 2hbh. All the two step drills in the world aren't going to change my legs age. But I still intend to add squats, etc. this winter, but that's only a concession to the hamstring and calf pulls this summer. Those are not fun.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
LOL ... you missed my point. I'm not talking about working :confused: on movement. I'm talking about "born with" movement, and "how much of it I still have left". Let's put it this way, I have running down better than hitting a 2hbh. All the two step drills in the world aren't going to change my legs age. But I still intend to add squats, etc. this winter, but that's only a concession to the hamstring and calf pulls this summer. Those are not fun.
Okay but I still think that you can at least maintain the movement you have and try to improve reading and first step reaction time.
I have been playing so much tennis the last several years that I don't think I've really lost any speed and with the added leg work I do I may have even improved movement.

I don't pay any attention to age to me that's just a number. Many of my opponents have said that I am covering the court better than ever. Now maybe it's more of better reading and anticipating where the ball is going I'm not sure but regardless it's an improvement.

I noticed that when hitting with the ball machine or easy paced rallying I am hitting my backhand better than ever. But when pace is increased or I have to get to one side of the court quickly and little set up time that is when I have more trouble with two hander. So to me if I can improve my set up time the backhand should follow.
 

iChen

Semi-Pro
I noticed that when hitting with the ball machine or easy paced rallying I am hitting my backhand better than ever. But when pace is increased or I have to get to one side of the court quickly and little set up time that is when I have more trouble with two hander. So to me if I can improve my set up time the backhand should follow.
Instead of shadow swings all the time, I’ve done a lot of running from side to side. Left side of court in closed stance BH, arms and shoulders turned, run to right side of court, neutral stance FH, arms to side. I’ll basically just keep running side to side of singles out line for 15-20 minutes, I’ll keep feet stable for 1-2 seconds before moving to other side.

I’m sure people at the park think I’m dumb :D
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Don't listen to the nonsense ... your strokes (and that rock body :D) improved. You sound a lot like me, you seek out information from whatever source you can. You decided for yourself if the information is 1) something you want to include in your game 2) something you agree or disagree with. They really don't want to come at us with the bs "I'm an expert, just listen to me or you are destined to be a lifetime pusher. Believe me.". What's the worse that could happen ... we spent hours on the tennis court we love trying to improve but didn't improve. I call that a win ... you had me at "hours on the tennis court". Have you noticed we have quality instructors here that do offer advice? They either think it is useful, or they are just f***ing with us. I wouldn't put that second one past Sinjin.

You know what is really funny with all this stroke discussion? As far as winning or losing, the ability to "run/move" matters WAY more than our perfect strokes, or how much spin or pace, particularly in singles. I used to beat several of the 4.0 guys I play now 6-3ish ... sometimes worse. Now 5 years later, I lost a step, and they are running better than I am. Now it's a lot more even. Our games didn't change much ... their legs just lasted longer. :confused:
I think a lot of those giving advise mean well and are trying to help us. It's not hard for me to listen to their comments and then watch my videos and see exactly what they are saying. I agree with a lot of the observations and I do try and use a lot of the advise.

But I would like to see some of these guys actually hitting the ball instead of just talking. Many use pro strokes video which I guess is fine but I like watching good rec players strokes better. Which I think is more relatable to us.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Instead of shadow swings all the time, I’ve done a lot of running from side to side. Left side of court in closed stance BH, arms and shoulders turned, run to right side of court, neutral stance FH, arms to side. I’ll basically just keep running side to side of singles out line for 15-20 minutes, I’ll keep feet stable for 1-2 seconds before moving to other side.

I’m sure people at the park think I’m dumb :D
Last year I was doing similar drill to that in my basement and I think this could be very helpful. I would run to my right with racket stop set up take a forehand swing then run to the left set up and take backhand swing. This is a good drill to use and very good conditioning.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Okay but I still think that you can at least maintain the movement you have and try to improve reading and first step reaction time.
I have been playing so much tennis the last several years that I don't think I've really lost any speed and with the added leg work I do I may have even improved movement.

I don't pay any attention to age to me that's just a number. Many of my opponents have said that I am covering the court better than ever. Now maybe it's more of better reading and anticipating where the ball is going I'm not sure but regardless it's an improvement.

I noticed that when hitting with the ball machine or easy paced rallying I am hitting my backhand better than ever. But when pace is increased or I have to get to one side of the court quickly and little set up time that is when I have more trouble with two hander. So to me if I can improve my set up time the backhand should follow.
Didn't you drop some weight? That is huge. I weighed 155 (for one glorious summer :D) 5 years ago, and waffling between 162-165 this summer. I would like to play at 155 again next summer, but that requires paying a "eating" price. Also, I had several friends tell me at that point "please, no more weight loss". Then again, they had been around me for 20 years at 175lbs ... they had no idea there could be a skinny guy in there. 175lbs was doubles years. :p
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Didn't you drop some weight? That is huge. I weighed 155 (for one glorious summer :D) 5 years ago, and waffling between 162-165 this summer. I would like to play at 155 again next summer, but that requires paying a "eating" price. Also, I had several friends tell me at that point "please, no more weight loss". Then again, they had been around me for 20 years at 175lbs ... they had no idea there could be a skinny guy in there. 175lbs was doubles years. :p
I have weighed between 175-180 for the last 25 years my weight has been the same. I was 155 right out of high school but then got into weight training and trying to gain weight which I got up to 190 and I added more muscle.

But then in my 40's I started playing a lot of tennis and trimmed down to 175 in the summer and up to 180 in the winter which has been the same for years now. Right now weighing 177 but I do want to lose a little weight. I would like to get down to 170 for older age.

Because as you say lighter is better especially for tennis and overall health. Plus with age we are losing some muscle mass so our weight should go down otherwise we are replacing muscle with fat.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
I think us older over 50 people need more muscle. Otherwise we get hurt. That has been my issue. Not enough strength.
At least need to maintain some muscle tone and which should translate into strength. I work out all year but I really don't increase the weight much or try to get stronger, I just try to maintain muscle tone and the strength I have. Which seems to be good so far for preventing injuries.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Are you making progress with your BH? I'm trying to make progress with my FH but rainy weather!
@TenFanLA ... this is a LONG post ... don't start it if you haven't finished you meals and dog walking duties.

It's been either to windy, or cold ... but finally got to hit about an hour with bm yesterday. Video at the bottom. We have so many 2hbh threads, hard to figure where to post.

I've decided if I'm going to re-work 2hbh muscle memory with the better unit turn and rf issues, I should go back and look at pro 2hbhs to decided where I want to end up. Just like @TenFanLA deciding he wanted to move in the Fognini type 2hbh direction.

I see a very common element in pro 2hbhs, and then a lot of variation getting to that common element.

Common: (shirtless pic for @TenFanLA 's and iChen's man crushes)



To me, this is the common element of pro lag 2hbhs. I call this the slot (right at the point shoulders about to turn into shot). The pros get here in many different ways ... high drop, low drop, straight to slot ... but they all seem to get here.

I doubt I end up with that much lag (pic #2), but I will be shooting for more than I currently have. I used to say that right hand position in pic #1 was to extreme for a rec player, but I think I didn't understand it. The more I watch video, that right hand turns like that simply when the rh drops below the hand (it happens naturally from the rh drop). So I no longer think it's to extreme for a rec player ... we should let the rh drop and this should be the result. Yeah ... pic #2 forearms/racquet angle is probably not something that would be very repeatable by the rec player. If I'm squaring up my rf for "more repeatable", I think this falls in the same category. That said, I'm curious where I end up.

Why I'm for the lag for rec players (at least rec BBP):
I think the 2hbh lag is very doable and worth it for the rec player. For one, it's more fun to hit, and two ... easier ts and pace (which means my 2hbh would be REALLY slow without the little bit of lag I have ). Based on my memory of early 2hbh bm sessions (those first couple of weeks where I hit balls over the fence into the park) ... I started with no lag. At some point, I figured out nothing was going over the net without 1) shoulder turn 2) relaxed arms and hands 3) hit with the left arm. I can't remember for sure, but I think I briefly hit no lag (no butt cap forward), and then just got lucky with relaxed arms/wrist/hands some lag got introduced. At some point there will be a robust (religious) argument here about whether Fognini gets into that pic #2 arm and hand position "actively" or "passively based on doing k-chain stuff right" ... but I'm not interested in that (YET :D).

So that's what is common. Go check Venus Williams ... she lets the racquet flop down in an exaggerated version of Fog pic #1 above before she even takes a full backswing.

So that is one goal, when I look at my 2hbh on video I hope to see a lot of that common hand, forearm/racquet angle/late release into contact.

That is the endpoint, but if I'm going to re-work muscle memory with the 2hbh, I'm going to look at pro video and decide which checkpoints I want to mimic. Not copy a pro swing ... but shoot for similar checkpoints. For example, I know I don't want a Zverev high drop. I know I don't want to go direct to slot, I'm used to a little drop. I'm looking at arm/hand positions on unit turn (how far hands are from body), and I'm looking at variation of hand position during stroke. Pouille (one of my favorite new players) sets his unit turn to the side with rh more straight up if he has time ... looks pretty cool. Gilles Simon appears to hit many strokes with his hands way away from his body. I don't see that for me, but that doesn't mean I don't need more space with hands away from my body on forward swing than currently. Nows the time to nail down muscle memory ... while I'm going through it.

Here is the big one for me. Here are two big types of 2hbh backswings that I see, including watching live matches on TV. The best way to look for this is from behind. Players like Fognini, Djokovic seem to get a rh assist coming around getting into Fognini pic #2 position. You can walk Fognini's 2hbh frame by frame in the pic #2 video, and he ends up there before any significant forward shoulder turn. This is what I typed in on my iPhone from the court that day when I said "it's the waggle". That's the feeling I have when I know I just got extra forearm/raquet angle lag. I relaxed the arms and hands and the rh swings around on the way back ... and I probably give it a little wrist/hand turn assist (teaching myself muscle memory ... no religious war here ... YET).

I like that feeling ... seems to get me to racquet lag easy. You can see a different type of 2hbh from someone like Cilic. He sets at the top behind him with pause, and then drop to slot and then in forward swing introduces the lag. I find that harder. I never liked the PTD stuff where Macci said set it back there ... and then yank it. No thanks... Fluid Swing for a $100 (stole that from Jolly). Now, I'm sure as I look through pro 2hbhs again each will have variations. For example, I think I've seen Djokovic have the pause on the back also as a timing delay sometimes, and he can still introduce the lag.

So VERY LONG way to get to here ... but that's how I post :cool:

My 2hbh re-work list (at this point before pro 2hbh video review) in order of what I want to tackle first:
1) unit turn with arms extended and hands away from body ... I think I will settle with arms going past good initial arm triangle unit turn at the back
2) rf ... no sunny side up
3) drop to slot from side (back) so I get the lag assist from rh coming around and down
4) posture ... no leaning back, athletic balance stance, slight bent knees but decided more Fognini standing up wise for my age ... just go for more knee bend on max ts
5) enough with the huge step and extreme closed stance ... get there in time, and groove a slight closed or neutral 2hbh ... point right foot more in the direction of left net post

I found pretty early on that's too many swing thoughts at once. I made it to #1 :eek: ... and the rf pretty much went right back to sunny side up. Also, I still don't know how far I want to take the arm triangle unit turn back before I transition into the arching from there to the slot.

My way of changing strokes/muscle memory is to force it with exaggerated moves. For example, at one point I was having trouble just getting both arms straight in the unit turn (and never got there totally) ... so I said to myself, just turn the damn arms straight and point back there at my iPhone and the tripod. Even if I never hit the damn ball ... just point with arms straight at tripod. Pause there ... feel what should become automatic later.

As you can see, this is going to take a long time. I'm really in to this at the moment. I'm going to have to find out if I can rent a ball machine once a week at our tennis center indoor courts. I doubt it ... I think they stay very busy.

 

mightyrick

Legend
At least need to maintain some muscle tone and which should translate into strength. I work out all year but I really don't increase the weight much or try to get stronger, I just try to maintain muscle tone and the strength I have. Which seems to be good so far for preventing injuries.
I do agree with what you are saying here. Quite honestly, if people just lift/maintain strength and not build mass... they can stay healthy well into old age playing tennis.

Core strength and joint strength are the two biggest issues as people get older. Some of this is obviously genetic, but a huge part of the problem is that people don't do any strength training whatsoever. They think merely tennis (by itself) is good enough. Which it isn't. That line of thinking is a good way to land you in a surgeon's office.

People who play tennis over the age of 40 with no strength training regimen are rolling the dice and greatly increasing the odds of injury.
 
D

Deleted member 120290

Guest
@ByeByePoly
Latest video shows better BH. More consistent, less sunnyside up.
However there are still 2 chicken wings + 1 small sunnyside up (freeze frame at 0:07) which means you still have to manipulate your hands to bring racket face to square at impact.
The big difference I see between your and advanced 2hbh's is that their rf is somewhat closed at backswing. Then they accelerate to contact which automatically squares the rf.
However you start from open rf. If you were to release the racket without manipulating the rf, the ball would go flying toward the back fence.
Even if someone started with a square rf at takeback, the racket would open up a little too much at contact.
Notice how Fog's rf is a little closed at takeback. I don't have my own pic but it is an exact duplicate of Fog's 2hbh without the 6 pack.



 
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ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
@ByeByePoly
Latest video shows better BH. More consistent, less sunnyside up.
However there are still 2 chicken wings + 1 small sunnyside up (freeze frame at 0:07) which means you still have to manipulate your hands to bring racket face to square at impact.
The big difference I see between your and all other advanced 2hbh's is that their rf is somewhat closed at backswing. Then they accelerate to contact which automatically squares the rf.
However you start from open rf. If you were to release the racket without manipulating the rf, the ball would go flying toward the back fence.
Even if someone started with a square rf at takeback, the racket would open up a little too much at contact.
Notice how Fog's rf is a little closed at takeback. I don't have my own pic but it is an exact duplicate of Fog's 2hbh without the 6 pack.



Yeah, still a breakfast platter ... sunny side up + chicken wings. I'm not sure why your tips always make me hungry. If I lived near you I would take you to breakfast while you gave me tips. :D

I'm still trying to figure out when to chicken wing. It wasn't as simple as I thought of just straight left and right arm from unit turn down to slot.

Chicken wings:

Started here:



Last round:





So I haven't figured out the gold standard on chicken wings, or lack of. For example, my second pic chicken wing isn't that much different than Murray's 2nd pic. It's the final pics ... when we are in the forward swing where arms become straight. I would say Djokovic's straighter arms are the way to go, but then ... why? Murray's bh is world class.

Here's the thing I really wonder. Since I believe the $ is made from the slot forward ... does it matter how you got there. Asked another way ... if we took a pic of any player in the slot position right before his shoulder turn started forward, and we like what we saw, would it matter how he got there? I'm changing my regardless, because it looks cooler to rotate. :cool:

Sunny side up:

I don't think it's a "hands" thing. I think it is a superfluous rolling of the arm that adds no value, creates a timing problem, and should die an ugly quick death.

I have a continental RH grip, and eastern FH LH grip. Normal... I would expect if I rotated to RH BH eastern and LH SW it would naturally close more, but that doesn't explain why a normal Continental/BH Eastern ends up in the backswing that way. What I think is happening is the right arm rolls (pronates) to the backswing/slot. For no reason.... I have no idea where that came from. Then on the forward swing, that right arm is rolling back (supinating) to contact ... but doesn't get all the way back leaving an open rf at contact. So this doesn't appear to be a "hands" thing, other than they are obviously attached. The rolling of the arm in the backswing was the manipulation ... but he rolling back is just happening with my relaxed arms in the swing. Doesn't get back all the way, and it leaves an open rf. A timing problem for absolutely no reason... has to die.

That said, to me, unless I'm missing something, this flaw didn't change the dynamics of core/shoulder/arm/lag stroke/power. I don't think a closed rf gets or open rf has any different dynamics of rhs in the foward swing. It seems to me all of that is the same, I just have the extra arm roll which creates a squaring up problem. I actually do think a closed RF creates a squaring up problem also, unless it's the same closed face at contact. I might be missing something there, but to me a rf change is a change regardless of direction.

Thanks for the help ... make BBP's 2hbh Great Again. (yeah ... like it was ever)
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
I do agree with what you are saying here. Quite honestly, if people just lift/maintain strength and not build mass... they can stay healthy well into old age playing tennis.

Core strength and joint strength are the two biggest issues as people get older. Some of this is obviously genetic, but a huge part of the problem is that people don't do any strength training whatsoever. They think merely tennis (by itself) is good enough. Which it isn't. That line of thinking is a good way to land you in a surgeon's office.

People who play tennis over the age of 40 with no strength training regimen are rolling the dice and greatly increasing the odds of injury.
Yep I tell some of the guys that are getting into their late 40's and starting to have injury problems the same thing you are stating.
 
D

Deleted member 120290

Guest
I don't like Murray's 2hbh as a model. His BH has very small margin over the net compared to those of Djokovic, Fog, Nalbandian, etc.
Murray's BH shots are very flat compared to other top pros'. Only because he is so coordinated and athletic can he hit them consistently at the pace he does.
Also his flat swing makes it difficult to hit high balls if you are not tall like him.
I think a coach who really knows 2hbh can watch you hit in person and tell you what is going wrong and what needs to be done to improve the 2hbh.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
I don't like Murray's 2hbh as a model. His BH has very small margin over the net compared to those of Djokovic, Fog, Nalbandian, etc.
Murray's BH shots are very flat compared to other top pros'. Only because he is so coordinated and athletic can he hit them consistently at the pace he does.
Also his flat swing makes it difficult to hit high balls if you are not tall like him.
I think a coach who really knows 2hbh can watch you hit in person and tell you what is going wrong and what needs to be done to improve the 2hbh.
I was just using Murray as an example of arm positions in the unit turn. I watched Nalbandian video looking at 2hbs this weekend. Yeah ... that would work. :D I was looking for a 2hbh pro example that didn't hit any lag, but he does (not as much as Joker or Murray ... at least on the videos I saw). I thing Chang maybe, but I didn't find any decent video.

Watching Fognini, I think he has a very live arm and magic wrists.
 
D

Deleted member 120290

Guest
...I watched Nalbandian video looking at 2hbs this weekend. Yeah ... that would work. :D...
That guy is cheating. I saw him play at 2012 Indian Wells tourney. He was basically using 2 FH's.
 
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