Slow Serve or Junk SpeedTrax

[thebuffman]

Okay so I went ahead and purchased a SpeedTrac X for two purposes:

1. To see what my service speed might actually be
2. To develop optimum technique for my service motion by gauging service speed increase or decrease

I returned from the courts disappointed to say the least. All of this time I thought I at least served about 100 mph (not that 100 mph is in anyone's book "great" or even "mentionable"). My best serves averaged 85 mph. I topped out at 90 mph. I placed the radar in front of the net on the ground and when unsatisfied with the report, I placed the radar on top of a propped up ball basket. Result, same...avg 85mph.

Now I am trying to determine if this thing is accurate. I am okay with the report if it is true, at least it tells me that I simply have more work to do. However when I look at players like Dementiava (who has a terrible serve) clock a speed of 103 mphs just now playing radwansk (???), i get a bit perturbed. Something definitely is not right. Then I see her hit a slow lofty spinny serve clocking at 80mph that double faults not making it to the net even and I scream "NOPE! something is definitely wrong. I aint buying it." Then Radwanska serves a kick serve and clocks 87mph and I am about to pass out in unbelief. My hardest hit serves from my 228lb decently athletic frame averages below Radwanska's kick serve?! I can't take it. Coaches in the adjourning court have commented on how nice my serve is and how big my serve is as it bounces and slams 3.5' high into the fence 22' from the baseline. I have one of the strongest serves amongst the 3.5 league that I play in and yet I can't break 90mph according to the radar. It is difficult for me to accept this as true.

Can anyone point out something I am not taking into account with these radar devices?? I just received this thing from hockey dawgs. It did not look new in box when I received it, so I wonder just how accurate it might be. I am open to any suggestions of validating the device.

I am not sure if I am looking for advice or just griping as I am a little disappointed in myself today. It really took a lot of air out of my sails. Heck at some point I put the radar behind the net and hit the ball at the radar as hard as I could....80mph. WHAT THE HECK?!! 80MPH!

sigh....help me out of this misery somebody.

ps. I have some old footage of my serve but this has been cleaned up with a more fluid motion, better pronation and I have dropped 30lbs since (i am 260 in the video but weighed in at 228 this morning). i plan to put up new service footage friday night.

 

[itracbui3]

the radar i think is pretty accurate. maybe + or - 3~5 mph because i used that radar before and it clocked my serves at ~95mph and when i was playing in my league, i was clocked at ~93mph. and as for your serve, it could have some spins on it so it might hit the fence within 1 bounce because my kickserve, which is only at high 60's or low 70's can also hit the fence within 1 bounce

 

[thebuffman]

you make a really good point. perhaps my serve is more spinny than it is flat. hmmm....i will have to consider this point of view.

 

[theagassiman]

Or maybe the radar they use at pro tourneys will add a bit mroe speed than yours would

 

[goran_ace]

I'm going to say a little from column A and a little from column B. Most people's serves will not clock as fast as they think they are. I have used the Speed Trax at different places I've taught and think its basically a toy radar gun that shouldn't sell for more than $30. It is hard to get consistent readings with it, and accuracy is anyone's guess.

Pro radar is much more senstive/sophisticated equipment and is set up to pick up the ball right after contact, where it is near its fastest speed. You can't pinpoint where you are taking the reading with the SpeedTrax, so maybe it is taking an accurate reading, but it is taking it further down the ball's flight path.

 

[LeeD]

Hard to get consistent readings on almost any radar device, but....
A 90 mph serve is about average fast for a male server on most recreational courts. If you think you can really serve faster, then you have to consider....faster serves than 115 usually draws a crowd of amateur rec players to watch your serves. The noise goes POP, the ball hits the back fence, 21' from the baseline, hard and bounces back or crazily. Usually around waist high.
You opponents less than 5.0 usually stand 5' behind the baseline to BLOCK the ball back on your first serves. And you have the fastest first serves of anyone on the courts.
I can't see your Vimeo vids, so I can't rate your serves. Mine are just around that 115 mark, and everyone watches me practice my serves for a little while. And everyone says the noise distracts them playing on the adjoining courts.

 

[GuyClinch]

I actually agree with Lee. I had a pro coming off a satellite tour demonstrate his 115mph serve to me and it had a different sound and feel then anything I see the guys around me (or me hit). It's like a mini-explosion or something. its definetly distracting..

I think the average rec player hits a "big" serve around 90-95 MPH.. Some of the former college guys get it into the 100's..but a 100mph serve is much more rare then people give it credit for..

So in short my money is on the radar gun being fine.. Sorry dude.. I am 6'4" and I am saying this..

 

[drakulie]

You need to be aware that the speed trac records the speed of the ball as it approaches the device, and not at impact when the ball is struck like in the pros, so the reading will always be a little slow (about 5 mph).

That said, the Speed Trac is fairly accurate. When I purchased one a few years ago, I compared it to the pro radar guns used by baseball teams. It nearly always gave the same reading as the more expensive gun.

Secondly, when I posted my serve videos a few years ago, a couple of the engineers on the board, provided a formula to determine speed measurememts from watching video. They measured my serve, distance traveled, etc, and came up with the following conclusion: The speed trac reading, as is described in the instructions was slow by about 5 mph. This is because of the distance the ball travels before the radar records the speed.

Many players who have never been radared, over-rate their serve speed by a lot. One mistake they make is going off of how fast/slow they perceive shots in tennis. It may look slow on TV, but as the case with Dementiava, make no mistake, she hits her serve much faster than 100mph. She has for the last few years trained where I live, and she is definitely hitting faster than any of the rec players or "3.5's" there. (Way faster on average).

I remember when I first purcahsed it, I took it out to a mens league where they do a ladder of guys between 3.0 all the way up to 5.0. Before they began hitting serves, they were asked how fast theythought they could serve. Nearly everyone one of them truthfully thought they could serve over 100, and were averaging in the 90's. Everyone was given a bunch of serves to break the 100 mph mark, and they weren't required to hit it in the box. If my memory serves me correctly, only 1 guy was able to hit a serve over 100. Most of the others were topping out at around 80. Mind you, they were hitting the serve with everything they had, and weren't worried about getting it in the box, and still couldn't reach the 100 mark. Imagine how fast there serve really is when they are playing a match? For the most part, probably in the 70 range.

100 mph is really fast, and not very easy to obtain.

Here is the serve the engineers looked at. The radar recorded 108, the engineers stated it was more like 113.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDNhhzaj3wc

However, it looks on video very slow.

 

[LeeD]

If that serve is really 113, the server has a real good chance of hitting 125 given some amount of good service technique....and actually trying.

 

[thebuffman]

thanks for the replies. i guess there must be a lot missing in my technique plain and simple. to watch dementiava serve consistently 107 mphs yesterday at indian wells was eye opening. she doesn't have a wind up, pull her momentum into the court plus she stands there like a pole but she is popping off 107 mph serves regularly and 85 mph kick serves. LOL! her kick serve is faster than my flat serve and i am throwing all 230lbs of me into the ball, have large upper body and strong legs. LOL! wow i guess strength and weight literally has nothing to do with a fast serve.

thanks for making this abundantly clear gang. i have a lot of work to get done if i am only avg 85mph on a hard hit serve.

 

[drakulie]

^^LeeD, I had a tear in the arch of my foot when I did that video. The reason I did the video was to prove a point on the forums so didn't care to much about looking like I was trying.

But back to the OP, the point is, many people really do over estimate their serve speed (especially on this forum), and I would guess, most have never seen a 100 mph serve up close, or coming at them.

 

[thebuffman]

But back to the OP, the point is, many people really do over estimate their serve speed (especially on this forum), and I would guess, most have never seen a 100 mph serve up close, or coming at them.

thanks for the video drak. i actually watched it last week sometime. very nice. i just noticed that you place your radar a lot further forward than i did. mine was pretty much at the net. maybe i will move to the center of the service box and see if that makes a difference (doubt that it will though).

if you get a chance, take a look at my serve video. this was 9 months ago and i've made a lot of adjustments but it is still good for critique. i am interested to see how fast you think my serve might be going since you are a veteran guy and all.

 

[drakulie]

thebuffman, I'm 5'9" and weigh about 155. I play a lot of guys much bigger than me, and they are surprised my serve has so much pop, and spin compared to them, who serve much slower. Goes to show, one doesn't have to be huge to hit hard, although I'm sure it helps.

By the way, here is the thread I referenced about calculating serve speed.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=99228&highlight=calculating+serve+speed

I can't look at your video right now because my computer at work doesn't allow me to open vimeo, but will look at it tonight.

Good luck.

 

[thebuffman]

thebuffman, I'm 5'9" and weigh about 155. I play a lot of guys much bigger than me, and they are surprised my serve has so much pop, and spin compared to them, who serve much slower. Goes to show, one doesn't have to be huge to hit hard, although I'm sure it helps.

By the way, here is the thread I referenced about calculating serve speed.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=99228&highlight=calculating+serve+speed

Good luck.

yeah, i feel you and i am in no way degrading smaller guys. i hope that is not how my point was received. i am more so degrading "me" that at my size 6'2 and build 230lbs with bmi of 30, that i can't hit harder than 85 mph. i think that is sad to be honest with you...very very sad. i walked away from the court yesterday very discouraged.

one good point though about buying this radar device is that it allows me to try different tweaks and see how those nuances affect serve speed. i was amazed to see that after hitting high 70's low 80's, squeezing the racquet harder actually increased my average speed to 85. up until this point i have always been told to keep a loose grip on the racquet. i am no longer a believer in that.

heck as an added bonus i also noticed that when i tossed the ball so that it was directly out in front of me and not slightly to the right, i hit my hardest serve (90mph). i popped off a few personal best at first doing this at 87mph. i hit 87 about 3x and then ended with a 4th serve before taking a break. the 4th serve was not as intense as the other three (i wasnt trying to hit it as hard because i was winded) and the radar said 90mph. i almost dropped dead. hitting with all my might and focusing on directing all my energy straight ahead with a straight ahead ball toss and hitting 87mph and then relax a bit and not swing as hard for 90mph...a new personal best. first i was excited and then i got mad. because this introduced a topic i did not want to face.....relaxation in place of muscular strength.

 

[drakulie]

yeah, i feel you and i am in no way degrading smaller guys. i hope that is not how my point was received.

No, I didn't look at it that way at all. Don't worry.

My point was more about having good technique sometimes goes further in terms of pace, than does height/weight/musle.

 

[LeeD]

I'm not sure about the word, "relaxation".
For me, looseness is much more important than being "relaxed".
Loose implies you can tighten up just before the moment of impact, so the body is taut during the ball strike, but loose and goosey before AND after the ball is struck.
And of course, you have to swing as fast as you can with a loose body.
And of course, you toss well into the court, moving your body forwards.
And of course, you try to employ the most leverage you can.
And newer balls, warm temps, and fully loosenned and warmed up body.
In 1978, I was timed 4 out of 7 at over 125mph, the fastest at 129.4 for second place, amateur division, in the GoldenGateway (SF Ca) fast serve contest in adjunction to the TransAm Pro tournament at the CowPalace.
I like to think I can still hit close to 115 on my good faster serves.
And yes, of the 40 or so guys at the courts, I have by far the fastest first serves....except the 2 5.5's who occasionally play there. Not that they go in very often, I don't practice serves any more.

 

[thebuffman]

Loose implies you can tighten up just before the moment of impact, so the body is taut during the ball strike, but loose and goosey before AND after the ball is struck.
And of course, you have to swing as fast as you can with a loose body.

thanks for these two bullet point items. i will have to employ this. i did not realize that you are to tighten up just before impact.

a new experiment is underway.

 

[onehandbh]

i am more so degrading "me" that at my size 6'2 and build 230lbs with bmi of 30, that i can't hit harder than 85 mph. i think that is sad to be honest with you...very very sad. i walked away from the court yesterday very discouraged.

I think it's also part genetics. There's this one MLB pitcher who threw
mid 80's when he was 16 and now clocks over 100 and AVERAGES about
mid 90's. He's a tall lanky kid. Most tall lanky kids can't throw that hard,
but being tall and lanky can help a little bit.

That said, I think your throwing motion can be improved by quite a bit.
It looks like you're mostly muscling the ball right now.

I would go out to a field and practice some long throws with a baseball
with your friend. Can you throw from middle depth center field to the
home plate with relative ease? From deep center field? Also try throwing
a football. How far can you throw it?

 

[athiker]

thebuffman...for a sec after reading your first post I though you were a guy on my team! We made a friendly bet last fall, loser buys dinner at the post-match hang out, that he couldn't hit a serve over 100. He has an excellent serve for 3.5 level - low 4.0 level. I just thought that it would be tough to break 100 mph for an 40 ish weekend warrior that was not really trained in mechanics since childhood.

Well, the other guy at the table had a radar gun. They went out one day when I wasn't around and did some tests. The agreement was the serve had to be "serve-like"...not necessarily in, but close to in. I can't remember the mph number he hit that day, but he wasn't threatening 100. The verdict? The radar gun must be off.

That's been the standoff ever since...someday they will get it calibrated (verified).

This doesn't take away from the fact that he does have a nice solid serve, its just a couple of things. First, he is not a 20 something pro, male or female, that has trained many hours most days of the week since he was 9 using video equipment to break down the minutia of his serve action. Second, I think the distance lag from racquet head to where the radar measures does bleed of some mph from the readings as mentioned before. Finally, he, like you, hits hard but with a decent amount of spin.

If you look at Drakulie's vid vs yours you will see 2 things. His shoulders angle after his toss is much more loose and extreme than yours. Second, he hits a much flatter ball with wrist pronation. Your serve is quite spinny and your follow through has very little pronation. That's what I see anyway.

 

[thebuffman]

That said, I think your throwing motion can be improved by quite a bit.
It looks like you're mostly muscling the ball right now.

I would go out to a field and practice some long throws with a baseball
with your friend. Can you throw from middle depth center field to the
home plate with relative ease? From deep center field? Also try throwing
a football. How far can you throw it?

see i guess this is where things get interesting for me. FIRST OF ALL thank you onehandbh for taking the time to look at my video. things get interesting for me because i play tennis right handed but my right side is not as powerful as my left side. in baseball i fielded right handed and batted left handed. one day my coach tells me to get a ball that ran astray while he was practicing with a kid (i was on the bench waiting to bat). i got the ball and beamed it with my left hand and he lost it, "Bill! What hand did you just throw that ball with?!" "My left coach" "Why are you playing right handed??" "I don't know coach" "Get that kid a left hander's glove". They put me at third base at that point because I had a strong arm and could cover the line with the glove on the right hand.

its been like that all my life. basketball i shoot left handed but can easily finish around the rim with either hands. boxing, i enter a left handed stance. so to go out and throw with a friend will not help me because i throw a football left handed and couldn't even begin to try throwing it right handed. being ambidextrous has had its perks but it introduces issues like this just the same. basically when i am picking up a sport i have to go by what my body tells me "feels right". it is the weirdest thing.

all of that to say, i really think i might be more relaxed as a left handed tennis player with a more powerful serve instead of muscling the ball with my right handed serve as my left is naturally 30%+ more powerful. however i dont even know how i would begin the transfer process of everything i have learned these 2 years over to my left side (or more so sad to say i don't think i have the energy after hitting well around 10k practice serves right handed).

i have isses :-|

 

[thebuffman]

The verdict? The radar gun must be off.

That's been the standoff ever since...someday they will get it calibrated (verified).

that actually made me laugh. the male ego....who can know it?? LOL!

If you look at Drakulie's vid vs yours you will see 2 things. His shoulders angle after his toss is much more loose and extreme than yours. Second, he hits a much flatter ball with wrist pronation. Your serve is quite spinny and your follow through has very little pronation. That's what I see anyway.

That is a very accurate analysis and it is the part of my service motion i have worked to clean up. I will post a new video this coming Friday night. I have worked at a more direct hit into the ball. hitting "down" on the ball and strong pronation. Please no comments on my "hitting down on the ball" statement. I do swing up toward the ball but slam down on it with pronation.

 

[athiker]

Ahh...simple. Serve left handed and then immediately switch your racquet to your right hand. That way you only have to relearn the serve, not the rest of your game!

Of course its gotta be tempting to just play with both a left and right handed forehand...that would be sweet. I assume Nadal has already tried that though and I guess it didn't work out as well as picking a side.

Good luck...a problem, but overall probably a good problem to have.

 

[thebuffman]

Ahh...simple. Serve left handed and then immediately switch your racquet to your right hand. That way you only have to relearn the serve, not the rest of your game!

well for now i will just see if i can make improvements from this point forward. if returns become diminishing in respect to effort, then perhaps i will rebuild the wheel starting from the left hand. heck even that gets strange as my left leg is way more powerful than my right leg. i couldn't even touch the rim playing basketball when jumping off my right leg but could dunk jumping off my left leg/right hand. so for tennis service, i drive the serve from my leading left leg. changing to left handed serve would require me to load on the left leg which would be the back foot....that might not be proper *dunno*.

hmmm...i would make driving a left handed forehand a lot more powerful as i would load up on the stronger left leg. MAN U GOT ME ALL IN A TIZZY. :???:

 

[athiker]

Sorry...good luck sleeping tonight!

 

[SuperDuy]

I'm not sure about the word, "relaxation".
For me, looseness is much more important than being "relaxed".
Loose implies you can tighten up just before the moment of impact, so the body is taut during the ball strike, but loose and goosey before AND after the ball is struck.
And of course, you have to swing as fast as you can with a loose body.
And of course, you toss well into the court, moving your body forwards.
And of course, you try to employ the most leverage you can.
And newer balls, warm temps, and fully loosenned and warmed up body.
In 1978, I was timed 4 out of 7 at over 125mph, the fastest at 129.4 for second place, amateur division, in the GoldenGateway (SF Ca) fast serve contest in adjunction to the TransAm Pro tournament at the CowPalace.
I like to think I can still hit close to 115 on my good faster serves.
And yes, of the 40 or so guys at the courts, I have by far the fastest first serves....except the 2 5.5's who occasionally play there. Not that they go in very often, I don't practice serves any more.

Do you have any vids of your serve lee?

 

[supineAnimation]

Yeah, with all due respect, judging from the video you posted I would be surprised if any of those were 85-90mph. You have some issues with your mechanics - since you didn't solicit feedback about that I won't discuss them - that would make it really difficult for you to serve even close to the speeds you want. At the end of the process it's all about racquet-head speed and everything in the motion is in service to having that racquet rotate in your hand and turn via pronation as quickly and with as little resistance as possible. Yours looks a bit stiff and forced and if you're looking for more serve speed, I'd suggest you work on getting the end of your motion looser and faster, which will require some changes in your technique. Good luck.

 

[BLX]

thebuffman, I'm 5'9" and weigh about 155. I play a lot of guys much bigger than me, and they are surprised my serve has so much pop, and spin compared to them, who serve much slower. Goes to show, one doesn't have to be huge to hit hard, although I'm sure it helps.

By the way, here is the thread I referenced about calculating serve speed.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=99228&highlight=calculating+serve+speed

I can't look at your video right now because my computer at work doesn't allow me to open vimeo, but will look at it tonight.

Good luck.

I don't think height directly correlates to serve speed just the increased angle of attack. Arnaud Clement is 160 5'7 and his fastest serve was 139. Benjamin Becker 5'10 fastest was 140.



OP don't compare your serve speed to the pros,
the pro serve guns like the getronics one used when roddick magically served in the 150-155 range back in 2004 give out a reading a few Millimeters away from the contact point of the racket and ball. Sadly your SpeedTrac x although fairly accurate the radar would never give the absolute maximum velocity of the ball the moment it departs contact with the strings.



Also event organizers sometimes "Juice" the Guns for increased publicity. Roddick hit a 155 ,mph bomb 6 years ago but his average fastest after that was 136-142mph, go figure.

 

[thebuffman]

since you didn't solicit feedback about that I won't discuss them

consider this my official request for feedback. here is the original "critique my serve" thread with the three progressions toward perfection

i would love your feed back. i will also be taking some footage friday of my latest most improved form and will also solicit feedback from you after i post. thanks for taking the time my friend. i, for one, love GOOD advice. what turns me off is people who have no clue what they are talking about trying to lead someone who doesn't know what they are doing.

OP don't compare your serve speed to the pros,

believe you me, i would never think of comparing my serve to most pros. i am a bit upset that i can't even serve as fast as jankovich & klaybanova (was just watching their match during my lunch period). klaybanova was serving 110mph and get this, she never did the "hip out and momentum noticeably moving into the court". she has an excellent toss out in front (a bit too high to my liking) and excellent pronation through the ball...that's it and the gun kept saying 110mph.

at this point i am beginning to wonder about all this mess people have been preaching about momentum and pinpoint stance and all this other stuff that is suppose to wrap around the service motion for a BIG SERVE. klaybonova wasn't doing half of this mess i've been reading, studying, pondering over, trying to integrate etc etc etc. she just toss the thing high out in front, crouches and then pronates hard directly into the ball BAM ONE HUNDRED TEN MILES PER HOUR! LOL! what in the living world. heck even jankovich with her soft serve was in the 90's!

and here i am with all this mass and muscle and hitting 85mph on a good day.

btw at lunch i took the radar out and placed it on the curb and drove the car past it at 22mph. the radar recorded 20. looks like it is pretty there +/- 3 mph. summation: problem is me.

 

[goran_ace]

buffman - my advice would be to talk to a teaching pro a your club and tell him/her that you just want to book 1 or 2 30-minute sessions to work on your serve. on these boards you will get a LOT of advice, some good, some bad, and sometimes its hard to distinguish the two. either way, its just advice written on a computer screen and is no substitute for a live instructor.

 

[thebuffman]

buffman - my advice would be to talk to a teaching pro a your club and tell him/her that you just want to book 1 or 2 30-minute sessions to work on your serve. on these boards you will get a LOT of advice, some good, some bad, and sometimes its hard to distinguish the two. either way, its just advice written on a computer screen and is no substitute for a live instructor.

yeah that sounds like the logical next step. i've spent a lot of time following progressions from fuzzy yella as well as taking in advice from the masses. i've rebuilt my serve ground up multiple times and must admit that i've had good success. at my level, my serve hardly ever comes back at me with any pace if it comes back at all.

the problem however is finding the right coach. i come across a lot of coaches here in vegas while i am out practicing my serve. they are typically coaching in the adjacent court and they always comment on how big my serve is while offering their services. when i see these guys serve however, i am not impressed. i am hitting just as hard as them and they are suppose to be pros. that is the issue i have with paying someone. you should be able to pop 120mph serve with no problem if you are a true expert at what you are teaching. if these young 20 year old girls are popping 105-110mph then a man should have no problem doing the same thing.

i am thinking of checking out what coach kyril is talking about with his free dvd + shipping. maybe he will be able to take me to that 100mph club where i can sit amongst the elites like jankovich and dementiava :neutral:

 

[onehandbh]

buffman,
btw, how tall are you?

jankovic is a top pro. She's one of the elite in the world, so don't compare
yourself to her. Plus she's not a small girl. Looking at both of your
motions, I'd say hers is much better.

If I were you, I'd immediately start serving left handed and playing
left handed. The transfer of skill is pretty decent. I play lefted handed
once a year and can rally okay and hit weak serves.

P.S. who cares what the WTA women are hitting and them hitting
harder than you. Guess what, Jankovic could also double bagel you
I think. Don't worry about it. Just have fun and keep trying to improv
and don't let your male ego get you worked up.

 

[thebuffman]

btw, how tall are you?

I stand 6'2.

jankovic is a top pro. She's one of the elite in the world, so don't compare yourself to her. Plus she's not a small girl. Looking at both of your
motions, I'd say hers is much better.

i feel you and i am not comparing myself to her. sorry if i am giving that impression to the forum. i know all of those players have developed skills and muscle memory that i will never attain from the sheer hours of repetition and expert coaching they receive. all i am saying is that i should be able to pancake a fuzzy ball 100mph given my build and it is frustrating not to be able to. not even hinting that i should be able to crush a 120mph serve at all. just saying that if some of these girls like radwinka and the likes are snapping down 87mph 2nd serves, i should be able to hit a flat serve at least harder than their 2nd serve with just brute force. evidently though that is not the case. evidently.

If I were you, I'd immediately start serving left handed and playing
left handed. The transfer of skill is pretty decent. I play lefted handed
once a year and can rally okay and hit weak serves.

i might have to consider trying this. it might not be to hard to transfer especially with the fact that i bat and golf left handed so i imagine a left hand forehand should be easy to develop. you know being ambidextrous is a crazy thing. you would think that because i batted for years as a lefty that i would also have a dhbh but nope...when i picked up the racquet my brain decided that i should do a shbh with the right hand. go figure LOL.

 

[MayDay]

I'm trying to find the video where it shows how the most basic serve power is in the pronation. He did examples serves showing different serve speeds with just arm pronation without any body movement - almost like a arm only throw. Of course, he's just trying to show what is the most critical in a power serve (in his teaching method).

Ah, here it is - it might ask for your (or an) email address.
http://www.coachkyriltennis.com/revealed.php

 

[thebuffman]

I'm trying to find the video where it shows how the most basic serve power is in the pronation. He did examples serves showing different serve speeds with just arm pronation without any body movement - almost like a arm only throw. Of course, he's just trying to show what is the most critical in a power serve (in his teaching method).

Ah, here it is - it might ask for your (or an) email address.
http://www.coachkyriltennis.com/revealed.php

get out of town. i have this site open in one of my browser tabs. just unable to watch it through because of work.

of course i do realize that pronation is definitely the key to power as it has helped me but it seems like pronation + timing is what i am getting wrong. i will watch all the way through to see what he is trying to convey.

 

[anantak2k]

Like most people have already mentioned, the radar is probably close to accurate. You just have to further work on your service motion. Sure being taller helps with angles but it doesn't give you that much more pace like most people think. You see pros like Grosjean who isn't that tall hit big first serves over 130mph. I have seen this one 15 or 16 year old junior girl hit 110+ mph serves.

A few years ago I was at this babolat exhibition thing where they had different fun games and drills where you can win prizes. The also had speed radars where you can hit as hard as possible. You don't even have to get your serves in. And from the hundreds of people who were there that day (everyone got 5 tries I think) there was only one guy who actually broke the 100 mark. He hit a serve at like 127 and averaged in the 120s. Me and my friend both maxed out at 97. I averaged around 90 while my friend averaged around 85. But I am only 5'5.

Most of the people I play probably average around 80-90 on their first serves but when I ask them they think they hit a lot harder than they actually do. They are like "there is no way I serve under 100mph." But I know for a fact that they are serving more in the 80s. I do however have two friends who easily hit their first serves between 110 and 125 and you can tell teh difference just from the sound.

 

[LeeD]

I'd think my serve resembles PeterKorda's the closest, but with more energy from legs and a more twisting trunk.
Can't find another lefty who's close. I'm sorta a stiff on the prep, then go into a blur of motion.
Just the last two weeks, after not hitting any balls that time, I could still serve harder on first serves of everyone except one 6'1" long armed 27 year old.
But then, last week, first throw with a football, no warmup or stretching, easy 50 yards. I can throw far, but not accurately. I can serve hard, but I like my flat first percentage to be right around 30%. Keeps my serves really fast, and I can use other serves for out wide, into the body, twists, and kicks, if I need a better percentage of first serves.

 

[mtommer]

If you think you can really serve faster, then you have to consider....faster serves than 115 usually draws a crowd of amateur rec players to watch your serves.

Hmmmmm, I can't wait then until I can eek out another 5 mph on my serve consistently. All's I gots ta' do is figure out how to get my body more involved properly. Ahhh, to bask in the glory....

 

[GuyClinch]

Well I think the serve doctor video is pretty good if you want to spend some dough on your serve - that and a practice court where you can hit alot of serves every day..

As a big guy like me your only scratching the surface of your potential.. the difference from 90 to 100+ on the court is much bigger then the numbers would indicate IMHO.

 

[thebuffman]

As a big guy like me your only scratching the surface of your potential.. the difference from 90 to 100+ on the court is much bigger then the numbers would indicate IMHO.

i think i agree with you guyclinch that bigger guys have potential for bigger serves. BEFORE I GET FLAMED, the reason i think so is because of the comments from the analysts during match play on tv. for instance they always talk about tsonga's size and strength in the same sentence of his big serve. if size and strength was a non-factor i dont think they would even mention it.

i am not saying that smaller frames cant generate big serves....i repeat....i am not saying that smaller frames cant generate big serves. i am just agreeing that big+strong frames have a great potential for producing big serves. for instance i think it would be a shame if isner wasn't dropping bombs on people's heads. at his size and strength, he better be creating hail storms on that court.

Well I think the serve doctor video is pretty good if you want to spend some dough on your serve - that and a practice court where you can hit alot of serves every day..

man if you only knew how many practice serves i have hit to date. i estimate it fast approaching 10k serves. it is nothing for me to go out to the courts at night and hit 300 serves in a session and do this 3 days a week. i have been consistently doing this for over a year now. this is why it was so discouraging to see that my service speed averages 85mph. if i were only practicing my serve 2 times per month that would be acceptable. but man i drag that double sized milk crate to the courts all the time filled with 150 balls and just hit serves. at the 3.5 level, it is very dominant but i do play for my level, i am a perfectionist and play for my own satisfaction. i will not be able to rest until i eventually get about a 120mph serve. we will see how it goes.

i imagine i am at the point where i need to solicit assistance from a coach as the online tutorials i have read over and over and tried duplicating have run its course. must admit though that fyb has really brought me up to a consistent 85mph service game so i am truly grateful for the work will hamilton and those guys are doing over there.

thanks all for you input. please keep it coming.

 

[GuyClinch]

^^^ the serve is essentially an upward throw. So just like in baseball most pitchers are big strong guys.. There are exceptions like a Pedro Martinez but the Roger Clemens body type is the norm. Also compare NFL QBs - another group of throwers (again similiar to servers) - usually big tall guys too.

I'd say in tennis you get more of an advantage if your tall - simply because you get better angles and can hit flatter balls in. This in turn encourages you to practice even more serves. Thus the natural advantages gets magnified.. People tend to practice what they are good at..

You notice the same thing in hoops. The little guys are often awesome jump shooters. It's something they could do well so they work on that even more. This is why I hold the most admiration for someone like Henin who is maximizing her talent. I think Roddick has done that as well....

 

[thebuffman]

I think Roddick has done that as well....

be careful when you speak of height and roddick because you know that guy stands 6'2 and 180lbs. he is thin but tall. as a matter of fact most of the dominant guys on the tour are tall and thin: rafa, djovick, potro, fed.... these guys are all over 6' tall. they are not the build of football linebackers with the added muscle mass but they are tall.

on another note, i was watching more of indian wells tonight as well as watching coach kyril's tips on pronation and i noticed something for the first time. it seems that the pronation taking place with the pros on the flat serve is definitely NOT what i am doing during my service motion (start at 1min mark). i seem to be over pronating the shot where the face of the racquet and palm initially facing the left fence terminates facing the right fence. i thought this was the proper method but now i have my doubts because i am not pancaking the ball but putting extreme spin on the ball. PERHAPS??!! when i watched nadal and ??? (forgot name) tonight i noticed how they pancake the ball with the palm extensively facing the net. then coach kyril in his explanation of pronation seems to pronate into pancaking the ball but does not talk about trying to get the face of the racquet and palm to face the right fence as fast as possible which as always been my #1 goal. heck i even try to imagine myself hitting the ball as the palm and racquet face are facing the right fence just to try getting every bit of power of out the shot. now i am beginning to wonder if my efforts to over pronate the shot has absolved me of the power i have been looking for.

 

[thebuffman]

i'll be doggon! i just watched kyril again and i am floored. i am suppose to pronate into a full racquet faced slap of the ball not a super fast supanation to over-pronation of the wrist and forearm. if someone would be so kind to take a look at this alternate video of me serving and tell me if what i am saying is making any sense. thanks!

 

[onehandbh]

i'll be doggon! i just watched kyril again and i am floored. i am suppose to pronate into a full racquet faced slap of the ball not a super fast supanation to over-pronation of the wrist and forearm. if someone would be so kind to take a look at this alternate video of me serving and tell me if what i am saying is making any sense. thanks!

Just noticed something in your video. The kinetic chain of the
swing is a little off. You start swinging with you arm instead of initially
the up and out swing with your legs, then trunk, then shoulder, THEN
ARMS. Keep your arms and shoulder more relaxed.

 

[GuyClinch]

be careful when you speak of height and roddick because you know that guy stands 6'2 and 180lbs. he is thin but tall. as a matter of fact most of the dominant guys on the tour are tall and thin: rafa, djovick, potro, fed.... these guys are all over 6' tall. they are not the build of football linebackers with the added muscle mass but they are tall.

Yeah but that's because its like a long drive contest in golf. The longest driver in the world is some big huge muscular nobody..All he can do is hit long drives.

The top pro players need to be able to do everything at almost great levels..

In golf for example..

"These two mountains of muscle headline the men's open division of the World Long Drive Championship, the sport's Super Bowl, which started Wednesday and concludes Saturday night under temporary lights at the Palms Golf Club here.

Defending champion Johansson, 6-foot-6, 275 pounds, is nicknamed "Swing Kong."

I am sure we could get say Randy Johnson some training and he could hit some of the biggest serves ever (well maybe if we did it ten years ago)..

 

[goran_ace]

man if you only knew how many practice serves i have hit to date. i estimate it fast approaching 10k serves. it is nothing for me to go out to the courts at night and hit 300 serves in a session and do this 3 days a week. i have been consistently doing this for over a year now. this is why it was so discouraging to see that my service speed averages 85mph. if i were only practicing my serve 2 times per month that would be acceptable. but man i drag that double sized milk crate to the courts all the time filled with 150 balls and just hit serves. at the 3.5 level, it is very dominant but i do play for my level, i am a perfectionist and play for my own satisfaction. i will not be able to rest until i eventually get about a 120mph serve. we will see how it goes.

i imagine i am at the point where i need to solicit assistance from a coach as the online tutorials i have read over and over and tried duplicating have run its course. must admit though that fyb has really brought me up to a consistent 85mph service game so i am truly grateful for the work will hamilton and those guys are doing over there.

hey buffman, I think this is even more reason to book a lesson with a live instructor. practicing that much may be just reinforcing the bad habits in your serve. I saw your comment earlier about how you aren't impressed by the serves of teaching pros and are suspect of how much they can help you, but keep in mind in ANY sport, the best players aren't often the best coaches. normally its the smarter ones who become coaches. also, very rarely will you see a teaching pro go all out - maybe only in league/tournament play - so they were likley holding back on the serves you watched. these guys teach tennis for a living and come certified/with credentials that let you know they know what they are talking about. reptuation is everything in that business so if you have doubts about some pros, ask around the club who people think is the best to work with.

good luck!

 

[athiker]

I thought this was interesting when I read it recently and applies here. It's from the Tennis Tips section of James Blake's website.

http://www.jamesblaketennis.com/jb%20pages/08_TennisTipshtm.htm

Dear James,
My name is James and i have been a big fan of yours for a long time now even from your Harvard days. Anyway, in the past you have told me that the power on the serve comes from the wrist snap but TennisOne website did a service analysis and they disagree with you and say that notion about the wrist snap is a Myth. Why dont you read it and tell me what you think ?? and also I noticed that you use BigBanger alu power 16 string and i use it too and i love it. But i hit with such big power that i need to string it at about 71 lbs to control it. But the Luxilon tells me that this string should be strung at lower tension or it doesn't perform well and it can cause arm problems. I noticed that you string it at 67 lbs. Has it been ok for you to string it at high tension and did you notice any problems?? Thank you so much and keep up the great work.

Jin cha

jin, i haven't seen that website, but maybe they've done some analysis to prove me wrong. the only evidence i have is that my serve is about 120 miles per hour, and if i only use my wrist, i can serve about 110 miles per hour. so i still believe it's where the most power comes from on my serve. as for the luxilon big banger string, i haven't had any problems with it, if you have to string it tight, then just use what feels comfortable to you.

I've read a lot how the serve is a whip and the wrist pronation is a result of an action (kinetic chain, etc.) and not a forced action in and of itself. Maybe James is doing a lot of other things right and he doesn't realize exactly what is happening, but its interesting to hear straight from him that he feels he can serve 110 using just his wrist and feels the wrist is where "the most power comes from".

 

[athiker]

Oh, and to ease your mind re: serving as hot as a WTA player I though I'd post some pics of a WTA player who happens to be hot. I don't know how fast she serves, but to just look at her relaxed you would never think she has the guns she has. They not only work on technique, but they are pretty darn strong. Even the ones that aren't as ripped, have some serious muscle under there.

According to her website she is 5' 8" and 127 lbs.

http://www.mariakirilenko.com/?page_id=10

Pic #1 Fairly normal looking arms

Pics #2 Ripped arms

 

[athiker]

And Dementieva?...she gets a lot of flak for her serve, mostly b/c is so inconsistent, but she has some serious guns.

WTH...one more of Kirilenko looking "normal"

And Dementieva:

 

[thebuffman]

you know i am eager to get back out to the court today. just from what blake said and what coach kyril is saying in his video, the power is all in pronation of the wrist and forearm. i know people will say things like "you are not standing right, you are not racquet dropping, you are muscling..." and those things might be true but i don't believe all of those "kinetic chain" things are hardly necessary to produce a 100mph serve especially after i saw the jankovich vs klaybonova yesterday. i wish you all would have seen klaybonova serve 110mph. she was tossing the ball straight up and and then boom! 110mph. she wasn't doing a deep knee bend with hip sliding into the court preparing potential energy for a fantastical release of kinetic energy blah blah blah. i was sitting their watching this in disbelief.

i am going to do some experimentation where all of my energy gets directed into pronation and i will be sure to stop over pronating. i am going after as flat a hit as possible. i can hardly wait to see what happens.

 

[MayDay]

Other things to try with your experimentation:
Try and toss the ball a little more into the court than where you are tossing it now.