Slow Serve or Junk SpeedTrax

okay gang i am back from my lunch break where i did some experimentation. i must say that i am pleasantly surprised. the experiment was to use as less "body" into the serve as possible. so i wasn't doing a full wind up, hip out type of a motion. at least i wasn't trying to. my main focus was concentrating on the pronation while not over-pronating.

windy day in vegas so at times it got a little frustrating with 20mph gusts but thats vegas and what are ya gonna do. anyhoo i tossed the ball out in front and came right at the ball with the edge of the racquet and then pronated so that the racquet stayed relatively flat toward the net instead of my usual overpronation where the strings end up facing the right side fence. after i got into a nice groove, the radar read 88, 88, 88 just like that with three balls in a row. hmmmf, i thought how about i add a little waist into this POP 91. then it went down hill as i struggled to maintain this new form...i kept reverting back to my form stored in my muscles memory. so i would see 77, 85, 80,80 81 stuff like that. decided to quit hitting into the wind and changed sides of the court. diminishing returns...my arm was fatigued since i was just arming the ball without really getting my body into it. i concentrated hard at pronating at the right moment by watching the ball all of the way to contact while adding a little waste into the shot....POP 91.

summary: i think i am on to something. first of all i have been over pronating. secondly, people who want a solid serve at the 3.5-4.0 level do not require all of this stuff about racquet drops and momentum shifting that we are being fed. with this new way of pronating, even my 75mph shots were hitting 4 feet high on the back fence with nice looking pace....i wouldn't have know it was a measly 75mph had i not seen the radar myself. thirdly, i definitely need to introduce a service coach into my life in order to get that extra 20 mphs i am searching for on my serve. fourthly, hats off to the wta girls. i have found that my timing had to be perfect to hit those two 90 mph shots that i hit. it felt so good coming off the strings..like butter, but it had to be PERFECT. even the 88mph triple i set off was with perfect timing. i was able to hit the ball the same exact way each time and the radar came with the same report.

i am glad i purchased this radar. i have read a lot of adverse postings against having one, but i see nothing but a benefit. the radar helps you to see consistency and track consistency. i dont know any other way to do this without a radar device. some of my 77 mph shots sounded like bombs and i would have thought they were 85mph without the radar device.
 
ps. i forgot to mention that it was a little upsetting that i was able to get the same result by concentrating on pronation as i got from all of my super duper calisthenic effort. all that wasted time and effort..over a years worth. wow. very upsetting.
 
thebuffman said:
ps. i forgot to mention that it was a little upsetting that i was able to get the same result by concentrating on pronation as i got from all of my super duper calisthenic effort. all that wasted time and effort..over a years worth. wow. very upsetting.
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Don't let that upset you. Every part of your body can work towards providing your arm and hand with the energy and force to throw that racquet as fast and loose as possible. So without first establishing the understanding and recognition of how the shoulder, the elbow, the wrist and the racquet rotating in your hand operate to impart the speed and spin on the ball to make it do what it needs to do to get over the net and come down in the box, all your "super duper calisthenic effort" wasn't helping you at all. Now you can continue doing some of those calisthenics to aide in increasing the speed and action of you arm/racquet chain. Look at Roddick's service motion. His incredible knee-bend and body torque are solely about producing as much thrust and action in his arm/racquet chain. There are a lot of crazy-ass service motions out there, some helpful, some not so helpful. But if you're comfortable with the rest of your body motions you very well may be able to use them to legitimately help your arm and racquet swing and snap faster, which wouldn't have been possible before understanding the end of the process (the wrist and racquet action).
 
supineAnimation said:
But if you're comfortable with the rest of your body motions you very well may be able to use them to legitimately help your arm and racquet swing and snap faster, which wouldn't have been possible before understanding the end of the process (the wrist and racquet action).
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some people know how to make that country time type of lemonade from them bitter lemons. thanks my friend for those optimistic words. i needed to hear that.
 
geese oh pete's....i just had an epiphany. as i was going to get some snacks, it suddently dawned on me, and no matter many how many times i had heard it before, that i am actually just throwing the racquet at the ball. the same as i would do with a baseball or football. all of a sudden I GET IT. this is why some people will excel at the serve while others will only be able to hope for decent or average service speeds because some people have a cannon for an arm while others don't. a friend of mine who stood like 5'9 170lbs was tossing a football with me. i could dig deep and hurl that thing but this guy...MY GOD... was on another level. the kid just flat out naturally had a cannon. this does not mean that i couldn't match him because all things were not equal. he had training because he played qb for high school. i had never played football organized. so his natural talent was amplified or maximized by proper technique. i have good strength athleticism but improper technique. and so now i finally get it. LOL!! this is just like throwing a football. this is why one of you posted that youtube vide for me to see with the guy teaching the kids the "throwing" motion with a sock filled with tennis balls because thats all it is. the coach even said that he has people stand at the back fence and throw the sock at the other fence.

all this time i have been thinking "okay, drop the racquet back but not too early and do a pinpoint not a platform and stick out the hip...dang it forgot to stick out hip...." but i have been lacking the comprehensive overview of what i am really trying to do, "throw a racquet as fast and far as i possibly can".

with that said, i am in definite trouble. my right arm has always been weak. i have never been able to gun a baseball or football with this arm although i've played baseball both as a righty and a lefty. the right arm is very accurate but the power arm has always been my left. my left side, i should say, is the power side. my left leg and arm have way more power potential than my right left and arm. so i will have to begin today practicing with the left handed serve.

man oh man, what an epiphany.
 
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i am actually just throwing the racquet at the ball. the same as i would do with a baseball or football.
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Not really, and this impression can actually be counterproductive. A pitcher or a quarterback gets sideways to their target line similar to a server, but a pitcher and a quarteback open their upper body and shoulders with the arm trailing the opening of the shoulders towards the target. You do not want to do that for the serve. You are not trying to hit the ball towards the service box. You are solely concerned with throwing your racquet at a single spot in the air, to the right of your body and in front of you, not towards the service box but rather closer to the opposite net post. And you want to inhibit the upper body and shoulders from opening with your core/obliques and, very importantly, by tucking your toss arm into your front side both because you're trying to throw your racquet up and to the right and because tucking your toss arm into your gut creates a pivot over which the upper body and shoulders snap. But make no mistake: unlike a baseball pitch or a football pass, the upper body should not be facing towards the service box when you make contact with the ball.
 
supineAnimation said:
Not really, and this impression can actually be counterproductive. A pitcher or a quarterback gets sideways to their target line similar to a server, but a pitcher and a quarteback open their upper body and shoulders with the arm trailing the opening of the shoulders towards the target. You do not want to do that for the serve. You are not trying to hit the ball towards the service box. You are solely concerned with throwing your racquet at a single spot in the air, to the right of your body and in front of you, not towards the service box but rather closer to the opposite net post. And you want to inhibit the upper body and shoulders from opening with your core/obliques and, very importantly, by tucking your toss arm into your front side both because you're trying to throw your racquet up and to the right and because tucking your toss arm into your gut creates a pivot over which the upper body and shoulders snap. But make no mistake: unlike a baseball pitch or a football pass, the upper body should not be facing towards the service box when you make contact with the ball.
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i see. what you just described is "how to crack a whip". if everything is done as you say, i should hear thunder crack from backside of that ball!
 
Yeah, a tennis serve is NOT like throwing a football or a baseball.
In my twenties, easy 70 yards and 300 feet in the air.
But serving is about getting the rackethead to move fast, so you have to slow down the hand just before ball strike, to allow the racket to catch up and almost pass the hand at the moment of impact.
Back then, I could serve just under 130.
Age catches up, of course, now maybe 115 and getting slower.
5'11" and 149 lbs. 2 days ago after dinner.
 
Additional tip (if not already tried):

I'm using J011yRoger's described way of gripping the tennis racket low (for my serve and forehand grip) - the pinky almost off the butt of the handle - with lots of success. Mentally, it gives me the impression of being easier and looser to throw the racket up at the ball. I also tried holding it even lower with pinky completely off the handle, and it also works well.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=2148457&postcount=6
 
A tennis serve is like a throw - but its an UPWARD throw. So its more like a long toss in baseball or a high deep bomb in football. Football QBs and baseball pitchers have huge advantages in adapting their throwing mechanics towards serving..

The serve doctor guy who is at Bolleteri explains all this if you want to disagree. I am not going to bother as its pretty self-evident if you understand these sports and how to serve.
 
Speed Trax. I use this all the time. My students love it.
The speed varies but over all I believe that for the price, this is a great teaching tool. The batteries ware out to fast. Don't be disappointed by your fastest serve speed. Use it to as a tool to measure how fast your ball goes. Tweek your serve toss, more knee bend, relax the arm and wrist and see if you can bump your average speed.
I use this device even for my player's groundstrokes to differentiate the appropriate speed of a cross court passing shot vs. a down the line drive. It gives players Feedback in form of a number. A number that may be 5 MPH slow, but a number that we can use and build a stroke from.
 
okay, i went ahead and bit the bullet purchasing The Serve Doctors DVD on Serve MPH (well i really purchased the 800MB download in place of being shipped a dvd). all i can say is WOW!!!!

i am entirely blown away by the things this guy is teaching. i thought i got it but now i completely get it. i see now why my serve is stuck at 90mph tops. for those with a scientific mind who need something more than just being told "pronate" will greatly benefit from this dvd. this is the best $18 i've ever spent toward my tennis hobby.

for instance, he discusses the "pronation pop" drill. in this drill he shows how you are using a pitching motion where the elbow goes back (in the wind up) then forward and then BACK to allow the forearm to roll past the elbow causing a POP at contact! in my ignorance, i have always brought the elbow and the forearm together and snapped down with the wrist for pronation - this method is what he labeled "hitting long". He advocates reaching a "Point of Impact". As your elbow abruptly stops its forward momentum, the loosely relaxed forearm+wrist are propelled forward meeting the ball at a POI. He explains that a lot of players hit long (nothing to do with the service line and hitting faulting on a serve) which means they hit through the ball. Hitting long or hitting through the ball places the POI well beyond the ball. When you hit long, at the point of contact with the ball, the greatest power potential has not yet been realized. This means that most people leave a lot of potential power on the table never to be used because they are hitting through the ball or hitting long.

that is just a sample of what this guy is teaching. this is paramount stuff.
 
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Yeah, a baseball swing is not the same as a golfer's swing, for reasons of ball ....moving or static.
Forehand, the ball is moving, so you adopt a long contact zone.
Serve, the ball might be moving up and down, but it's static as far as you're concerned, because YOU threw it up where you want to hit it.
Stationary ball, you concentrate your swing energy into a small sport, so conti grips, pronation, and twisting of the arm with a loose wrist.
 
For the record, and I'm sure someone has already said this, the serves in the videos look like they're going pretty close to the indicated speed. They just aren't that fast.
 
Nanshiki said:
For the record, and I'm sure someone has already said this, the serves in the videos look like they're going pretty close to the indicated speed. They just aren't that fast.
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affirmative. i am working at getting some of my glitches cleaned up. wish me well.
 
registered a person best today, 94mph. i'm slowly but surely getting there. 100mph here i come!

ps. i would also like to note that these radar devices are very finicky. i placed the device about 3 feet from the T and began hitting some boomy serves, some of the fastest i've ever hit and the silly thing kept saying 70-75mph. i blasted one serve, that was really fast, and the machine didn't even report 77mph. i shook my head in disbelief. i have already been humbled from this experience and have learned not to doubt the machine any longer but i know for sure that the serve i hit had to at least be 80. so i pushed the device back a couple more feet, just past the half way mark from the T and closer to the net. then i hit those same serves and the radar screamed 88. "i'll be doggone". now why on earth would moving the thing back make THAT big of a difference. man-o-man
 
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You can also film your serve and count the frames it takes to get from contact to landing. Then you just plug it into an equation. So if your SURE your gun is wrong you can always double check with this method. This is actually very accurate.
 
GuyClinch said:
You can also film your serve and count the frames it takes to get from contact to landing. Then you just plug it into an equation. So if your SURE your gun is wrong you can always double check with this method. This is actually very accurate.
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you know this sounds like a very viable solution. when you say "from contact to landing" are you talking about when the ball bounces in the service box?
 
From what I remember on threads on this several years ago the consensus was that it read 5% to 10% low compared to what a radar at a pro tournament would read.
 
thebuffman said:
registered a person best today, 94mph. i'm slowly but surely getting there. 100mph here i come!

ps. i would also like to note that these radar devices are very finicky. i placed the device about 3 feet from the T and began hitting some boomy serves, some of the fastest i've ever hit and the silly thing kept saying 70-75mph. i blasted one serve, that was really fast, and the machine didn't even report 77mph. i shook my head in disbelief. i have already been humbled from this experience and have learned not to doubt the machine any longer but i know for sure that the serve i hit had to at least be 80. so i pushed the device back a couple more feet, just past the half way mark from the T and closer to the net. then i hit those same serves and the radar screamed 88. "i'll be doggone". now why on earth would moving the thing back make THAT big of a difference. man-o-man
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Likely the angle that it is seeing the ball at. Ideally, the radar would be pointed exactly in the line of the ball.
 
Being big or strong doesn't mean much if you can not use your size and strength efficiently, this is the reason WTA pros can serve faster than you, yet probably don't have a third of your strength.

The key is making efficient use of your power by using the kinetic chain. The energy starts from your legs and ends in your racquet.

Notice in this comparison photo -Roddick's coil vs. yours, his hip is leading forming a backwards "C" shape, his energy is loaded and ready to uncoil into the ball. In comparison your knees are bent but your energy is not coiled properly to explode into the ball. You need to use your knee bend to coil your energy to catapult forward, not just up, to do this key on your hip leading into the court, bend your front knee a little more to get the backwards "C" shape with your hip leading into the court. Look at his shoulder angle compared to yours, Roddick has about 90-100degrees of coil to contact, now look at your coil to contact point I would guess it is around half of that. You need a little more coil to contact.

2ag23vl.jpg


Next step, you are not getting the maximum use out of your power because you are making contact a little too early, I noticed this on quite a few of your serves, your contact point is sometimes straight over your back leg or lagging behind your body. Notice where Roddick makes contact out in front at the point of maximum power. His racquet is the end of the kinetic chain contacting the ball out in front of his entire body , not straight over or behind his body in comparison to you. To fix this, try tossing a little further into the court, so you force yourself to go after the ball making contact at your point of greatest speed and power.The end of the kinetic chain.

2621kt1.jpg


Lastly, relax your body before you start your motion, tensed muscles can not move fast, try to stay relaxed all the way until contact. Relax, coil, accelerate, hit out in front.
 
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i can't put in text the degree to which i appreciate the length you went to in order to help me out. thanks a ton my friend. i will definitely make these adjustments.
 
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