So basically, have we all admitted to ourselves Novak is > Fedal?

[StannisTheMannis]

This forums collective grief process is incredible to witness.

 

[ServeBot]

I think we've all known this on some level for a while, but does the win today cement it?

Confirmed GOAT

 

[GabeT]

I don’t really care all that much tbh. I wanted Tsitsipas to win because it would have been cool to see a new slam winner.

The reality is the most press coverage Novak ever received was when he hit the lineperson. And the 2nd most coverage was when he hosted the Adria tour & caught Covid. Those are really the only times people outside the tennis world cared about Djokovic. So I’m just not sold on the idea he’ll still be massively relevant after he retires.

LOL, keep telling yourself that.

 

[Beckerserve]

Appare

Yes! The NextGen are starting to pull their weight in these Slams. Even if they don't win Wimbledon, I think they are going to spoil someone's day. Nole is one away from 20, Rafa and Roger one away from 21, Muzzah on home soil, Stan could get the missing Slam, and everyone else is looking for their 1st ('cept Marin and Domi). I am excited....there are not enough exclamation points to convey it in text

TTW - Are you ready?

Apparently Djokovic fans arent. They think its all over. Not one has taken the gauntlet up for the Slam Race determining GOAT. Which is baffling now Djokovic just one behind.

 

[GhostofPetros]

Spot on as usual

Djokovic doesn’t need “without Nadal” - he went out and beat him twice at his pet slam, and Fed 3 times

Fed actively needed Nadal and Djokovic injured so he could vulture and win slams in 09 & 17-18, where as Novak just goes out and destroys his in form main rivals.

I'm honestly amazed at how often Fedfans bring up the Weak Era argument. Hypocrisy from their years of whinging and moaning that there was no such thing as a weak era aside, its just terrible crisis management. It opens them up to the counterargument they've had to defend themselves against for years.

 

[Beckerserve]

LOL, keep telling yourself that.

20-20-19. Game on for GOAT. Yes?
All to play for yes?
Cmon bud its mano v mano v mano now. You surely up for this?

 

[jga111]

How many GOATS at their peak did Djokovic play and win during that time?

There is your answer.

 

[GhostofPetros]

How many GOATS at their peak did Djokovic play and win during that time?

There is your answer.

Two. Peak Federer 2015 on, and prime and at times Peak Nadal.

 

[TMF]

This is tennis, not basketball, and Nole and Rog are not Lebron and Jordan. Let's try to keep it straight.

GOAT evaluation should be use the same criteria across all sports. You have to be consistent.

 

[myth]

Spot on as usual

Djokovic doesn’t need “without Nadal” - he went out and beat him twice at his pet slam, and Fed 3 times

Fed actively needed Nadal and Djokovic injured so he could vulture and win slams in 09 & 17-18, where as Novak just goes out and destroys his in form main rivals.

No one has ever dominated the game the way Fed did in 2005 2007.
It's true, Fed would not have won the AO with an in form Novak in the draw in 2017 2018.

 

[Aabye5]

Appare

Apparently Djokovic fans arent. They think its all over. Not one has taken the gauntlet up for the Slam Race determining GOAT. Which is baffling now Djokovic just one behind.

Maybe it is. Maybe Djoker sweeps Wimby, too. He is playing like a man on fire, that's all I know.

That said, the big 3 are always raising the stakes.

 

[smalahove]

Congrats to Nole. If he reaches 20 GS, and the big three all have 20, he’ll be the GOAT in my eyes because he’ll then have won 2 of each, which makes his 20 GS > than the others.

But GOAThood can also be defined with other variables than metrics such # of this or that. As mentionned above, the GOAThood of Maradona is not based on his trophy cabinet which is actually second to a lot of players.

Tennis is a sport but it is also entertainment, and I love to watch attacking tennis, and skill around the net, which is why I prefer Fed to Nadal or Djokovic.

But on the courts the last decades, defense and aggressive counterpunching is the best tactic, and nobody is better than Djoko.

Nole plays the tennis that most of us should emulate, super solid everywhere (except the net). But the tennis of my dreams looks like Fed’s.

 

[Jai]

42,000 people payed to see Federer play an exhibition vs Zverev in MEXICO a little over a yr ago.

So in your mind, Popularity necessarily equates to Greatest achievements status?

 

[GabeT]

20-20-19. Game on for GOAT. Yes?
All to play for yes?
Cmon bud its mano v mano v mano now. You surely up for this?

I'm just enjoying the moment right now

Djokovic is not winning the FO

 

[jga111]

Two. Peak Federer 2015 on, and prime and at times Peak Nadal.

Peak 2015 haha. Case dismissed

 

[GhostofPetros]

GOAT evaluation should be use the same criteria across all sports. You have to be consistent.

Every sport has its own criteria, are you kidding? On top of that, tennis and basketball are different types of sports altogether, one individual, one team.

 

[World Beater]

the big 3 are all statistically similar and there are arguments for each. But pete is not the discussion for sure....

But Novak/Nadal/Fed >>>>> Sampras.

Statistically, there is no doubt about this.

 

[GhostofPetros]

the big 3 are all statistically similar and there are arguments for each. But pete is not the discussion for sure....

But Novak/Nadal/Fed >>>>> Sampras.

Statistically, there is no doubt about this.

bwahahaha whatever you need to tell yourself to stay in denial.

 

[Jai]

Congrats to Nole. If he reaches 20 GS, and the big three all have 20, he’ll be the GOAT in my eyes because he’ll then have won 2 of each, which makes his 20 GS > than the others.

But GOAThood can also be defined with other variables than metrics such # of this or that. As mentionned above, the GOAThood of Maradona is not based on his trophy cabinet which is actually second to a lot of players.

Tennis is a sport but it is also entertainment, and I love to watch attacking tennis, and skill around the net, which is why I prefer Fed to Nadal or Djokovic.

But on the courts the last decades, defense and aggressive counterpunching is the best tactic, and nobody is better than Djoko.

Nole plays the tennis that most of us should emulate, super solid everywhere (except the net). But the tennis of my dreams looks like Fed’s.

Beautiful reply. Balanced, recognising the genius of all the greats, non partisan. Such a pleasure to read.

 

[eagletennis]

And the same people showing this ESPN graphic will not agree with a word you just said (unless you have the TV on mute and make up your own commentary)

As it stands now, Djokovic is GOAT.

You are naive. Casual fans dont look at the sport that way. I want Djokovic to be GOAT but I am also not blind to what shapes GOAT narrative. Sports fans in general are not to deep thinkers. You can make that argument on TTW but world doesn't work that way

 

[Beckerserve]

I'm just enjoying the moment right now

Yes that is fair enough. Im still enjoying RG2020. I was lucky as that was last slam of year.
Wimbledon is coming up. Would be devastating for Novak if either Nadal or Federer bag it.
Wimbledon and USO are absolutely huge now. The stakes cannot be higher in world sport ever.

 

[dumb-person]

I like Nadal or Federer style more but i cannot deny that he is pretty much in pole position to become greatest tennis player of all the time.

 

[Djokinho]

42,000 people payed to see Federer play an exhibition vs Zverev in MEXICO a little over a yr ago.

And what about it?

I'm not a Federer fan, but I would pay to see him for the experience.

I would pay to see even Medvedev.

 

[GhostofPetros]

Congrats to Nole. If he reaches 20 GS, and the big three all have 20, he’ll be the GOAT in my eyes because he’ll then have won 2 of each, which makes his 20 GS > than the others.

But GOAThood can also be defined with other variables than metrics such # of this or that. As mentionned above, the GOAThood of Maradona is not based on his trophy cabinet which is actually second to a lot of players.

Tennis is a sport but it is also entertainment, and I love to watch attacking tennis, and skill around the net, which is why I prefer Fed to Nadal or Djokovic.

But on the courts the last decades, defense and aggressive counterpunching is the best tactic, and nobody is better than Djoko.

Nole plays the tennis that most of us should emulate, super solid everywhere (except the net). But the tennis of my dreams looks like Fed’s.

Federer is not even the best attacking player though, that would be either his heroes PETE or Stefan. Fed is an aggressive baseliner who occasionally plays great points at net.

 

[Midaso240]

Knee-jerk and recent bias.

I remember Lebron James won a championship for the Lakers last year and the same old reaction happens in every sport. His fans declare him the GOAT over Michael Jordan. LOL

It's very surprising to me the way media all became very pro-LeBron when he went to the Lakers. I find it a much more difficult argument in basketball though, because it's a team game. The example from basketball though is that this GOAT debate is never over, MJ became the near unanimous GOAT something like 23 years ago and yet the debate rages on and on. Even if Novak finishes on about 24 slams there will be someone else in 15 or 20 years who people will be saying is better...

 

[Patogen]

I thought he reached the highest level of the three by 2011.

 

[Beckerserve]

Maybe it is. Maybe Djoker sweeps Wimby, too. He is playing like a man on fire, that's all I know.

That said, the big 3 are always raising the stakes.

I think it is great. I mean its really exciting now.
I am not sure why so many arguing with me. This is what sport is about.
I hope Rafa is on the grass practicing right now.

 

[TMF]

Every sport has its own criteria, are you kidding? On top of that, tennis and basketball are different types of sports altogether, one individual, one team.

Base on career achievements - titles, records, peak/prime dominant, intangible. That's what I mean by being consistent.

Point here is that Djokovic and Lebron fans are having a knee-jerk reaction after a big win. Eventually the fanboyism will go away over time and everything will be back to normal.

 

[GhostofPetros]

Base on career achievements - titles, records, peak/prime dominant, intangible. That's what I mean by being consistent.

Point here is that Djokovic and Lebron fans are having a knee-jerk reaction after a big win. Eventually the fanboyism will go away over time and everything will be back to normal.

But Nole does have all the most important records, aside from the Slam record which he's just one away from tying. This is not a knee-jerk reaction at all. Its about recognition of a body of work that is FAR superior to Fedal's.

 

[TopspintheTerrible]

So in your mind, Popularity necessarily equates to Greatest achievements status?

You & other posters made the argument about his achievements/ current status in the GOAT race. He’s obviously an incredible player & a solid argument can be made that he’s the best. I simply said I don’t think people will really care all that much about Novak post-retirement regardless of how many slams he wins & Fedal will still be favored. That’s it.

 

[smalahove]

Beautiful reply. Balanced, recognising the genius of all the greats, non partisan. Such a pleasure to read.

Thank you. Even if I’m a Fed fan, I hope the most eager fans in all camps realize how fortunate we are these guys have managed to extract the absolute best out one another. The disappointment with some of Fed’s losses against Nole or Rafa, have often been a result of disbelief in these guy’s ability to find yet another gear, not used earlier in the tournament, but in hindsight I appreciate the majesticness of the show they’ve put on for us.

It looks like Fed and Nadal will end their careers before Nole, and I’m not worried about protecting any GS records. But I do believe we will miss the epic matches these rivalries have given us.

 

[Jai]

But Nole does have all the most important records, aside from the Slam record which he's just one away from tying. This is not a knee-jerk reaction at all. Its about recognition of a body of work that is FAR superior to Fedal's.

He won't listen to you. He will drag in some vague, never-normally discussed stat which will still prove, if only to his own mind, that his favorite is the Greatest.

 

[NoleIsBoat]

Fed’s GOAT claim is hanging by a thread. He has some trump cards over Nadal by virtue of his career work, but the h2h domination sets him back. All he has over Nole is the 1 slam, with the caveat that 11/12 of first slams won facing Bagdhatis, Philippousis, Kiefer etc.

I think Fed fans already know he’s not GOAT so have resorted to living in alternative reality where 04-07 peak Fed beats everyone and anyone everywhere and Djokodal are just lucky.

It’s Nadal fans I feel for. Their trump card has always been the slam h2h, but Novak having 2 RG wins to Rafa’s 0 in Australia is massive.

 

[GhostofPetros]

He won't listen to you. He will drag in some vague, never-normally discussed stat which will still prove, if only to his own mind, that his favorite is the Greatest.

Well I know Fed has made more money, with his spaghetti sponsorships and whatnot, but I thought we were talking about tennis?

 

[itrium84]

No one has ever dominated the game the way Fed did in 2005 2007.
It's true, Fed would not have won the AO with an in form Novak in the draw in 2017 2018.

Novak dominated the game more in 2015/2016 with his Grand Slam and highest ATP+ELO record in history. Check the numbers, it's true.

 

[GhostofPetros]

Fed’s GOAT claim is hanging by a thread. He has some trump cards over Nadal by virtue of his career work, but the h2h domination sets him back. All he has over Nole is the 1 slam, with the caveat that 11/12 of first slams won facing Bagdhatis, Philippousis, Kiefer etc.

I think Fed fans already know he’s not GOAT so have resorted to living in alternative reality where 04-07 peak Fed beats everyone and anyone everywhere and Djokodal are just lucky.

It’s Nadal fans I feel for. Their trump card has always been the slam h2h, but Novak having 2 RG wins to Rafa’s 0 in Australia is massive.

I think Nadal fans are more honest though. Fedfans are the type to project this alternate reality they're living in onto the rest of us and expect us to buy into it as if its real.

 

[Mustard]

Nadal is the best.

 

[Tony48]

You are naive. Casual fans dont look at the sport that way. I want Djokovic to be GOAT but I am also not blind to what shapes GOAT narrative. Sports fans in general are not to deep thinkers. You can make that argument on TTW but world doesn't work that way

Casual fans think Federer is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Who cares what casual fans think. And also, the narrative is driven by what is presented in the media. And the media will definitely consider Djokovic as the GOAT right now.

 

[smalahove]

Federer is not even the best attacking player though, that would be either his heroes PETE or Stefan. Fed is an aggressive baseliner who occasionally plays great points at net.

Yes, he had to change his tactics because it’s not possible, even for Fed, Sampras or anyone else, to play using these tactics if you’re facing Novak, or Rafa on clay. The courts are just too slow and they’re just too good

 

[NoleIsBoat]

I think Nadal fans are more honest though. Fedfans are the type to project this alternate reality they're living in onto the rest of us and expect us to buy into it as if its real.

Yea true. At least when beckerserve mentions the 2-1 USO, 10>7 and 20>19 it’s based in reality and solid numbers.
This whole “peak Fed destroys Djokodal” despite the 10-21 real life h2h, or peak Roddick > 2015 Fed or Murray is just pure fantasy.

 

[Vanilla Slice]

All this coping from Fedal fans…

Djokovic - upon winning 21 - will become undisputed goat and that’s almost certain to happen. Enjoy greatness.

 

[NoleIsBoat]

Novak dominated the game more in 2015/2016 with his Grand Slam and highest ATP+ELO record in history. Check the numbers, it's true.

Fair to say Fed has greatest 4 year stretch, Novak with greatest 12 and 18 months ever.

Difference is, Novak achieved his domination toppling peak Fed, peak Murray, peak Wawrinka. Fed achieved his when guys like Grosjean, Bjorkman, Kiefer were making slam SF

 

[Jai]

Thank you. Even if I’m a Fed fan, I hope the most eager fans in all camps realize how fortunate we are these guys have managed to extract the absolute best out one another. The disappointment with some of Fed’s losses against Nole or Rafa, have often been a result of disbelief in these guy’s ability to find yet another gear, not used earlier in the tournament, but in hindsight I appreciate the majesticness of the show they’ve put on for us.

It looks like Fed and Nadal will end their careers before Nole, and I’m not worried about protecting any GS records. But I do believe we will miss the epic matches these rivalries have given us.

Absolutely. I am more of a Djokodal fan (more leaning towards Novak), but I respect Fed's superb artistry though I'm not a fan as such. TTW gets so rife with these tribalism infused arguments, it's crazy. It's perfectly possible to root madly for one's favourite and yet appreciate the greatness of the other ATGs. As you said, we are lucky to be in this generation, having seen them battle it out for the last 1.5 + decades.

 

[GabeT]

Base on career achievements - titles, records, peak/prime dominant, intangible. That's what I mean by being consistent.

Point here is that Djokovic and Lebron fans are having a knee-jerk reaction after a big win. Eventually the fanboyism will go away over time and everything will be back to normal.

by that time Novak will be on 21 slams and there won't be any debate anymore

 

[GhostofPetros]

Yea true. At least when beckerserve mentions the 2-1 USO, 10>7 and 20>19 it’s based in reality and solid numbers.
This whole “peak Fed destroys Djokodal” despite the 10-21 real life h2h, or peak Roddick > 2015 Fed or Murray is just pure fantasy.

Its routine material is what it is.

I'm honestly convinced the heavyweight Fedfans like NatF, Acesalvo, abmk etc. are all comedians trolling us all

 

[myth]

Fair to say Fed has greatest 4 year stretch, Novak with greatest 12 and 18 months ever.

Difference is, Novak achieved his domination toppling peak Fed, peak Murray, peak Wawrinka. Fed achieved his when guys like Grosjean, Bjorkman, Kiefer were making slam SF

Schartzman FO 2020 Pouille AO 2019 Karatsev AO 2021
I love Novak but please be fair

 

[Jai]

Yea true. At least when beckerserve mentions the 2-1 USO, 10>7 and 20>19 it’s based in reality and solid numbers.
This whole “peak Fed destroys Djokodal” despite the 10-21 real life h2h, or peak Roddick > 2015 Fed or Murray is just pure fantasy.

What you say is mostly true, but the poster you mention is also notorious for intellectual dishonesty. He keeps shifting goalposts, fudging stats, and makes outright false claims to buttress crazily partisan arguments.

 

[NoleIsBoat]

Its routine material is what it is.

I'm honestly convinced the heavyweight Fedfans like NatF, Acesalvo, abmk etc. are all comedians trolling us all

abmk has me crying with some of his takes
04 Nalbandian > 11 Fed was one of my favourite nuggets.

 

[GhostofPetros]

abmk has me crying with some of his takes
04 Nalbandian > 11 Fed was one of my favourite nuggets.

So, 2004 Nalbandian>2011 Federer *audience laughs uncontrollably*

 

[ttwreader]

I know this is TTW but things would settle down when all 3 of them retire

For now, I am looking to see Novak to complete his Golden Slams this year.