So basically, have we all admitted to ourselves Novak is > Fedal?

Edgecrusher

Professional
LeBron can win 10 rings & you’ll still never convince anybody he’s better than Jordan. And maybe he would be but honestly nobody would give a sh*t either. Same goes for Djokovic. Outside of Serbia & apart from his club level pusher fans, nobody cares. In 10 years people will still be talking about 2008 Wimby, 2017 AusOpen & Nadal’s 13 RG titles. And Djokovic will be remembered as a consistent player who got really angry often & hit a line judge.

Congrats on 19 though(y)

For years we‘ve been told by Fedal fans only the slam count will decide the GOAT question. For some time now the story‘s changed
 

Patogen

Rookie
Fair to say Fed has greatest 4 year stretch, Novak with greatest 12 and 18 months ever.

Difference is, Novak achieved his domination toppling peak Fed, peak Murray, peak Wawrinka. Fed achieved his when guys like Grosjean, Bjorkman, Kiefer were making slam SF :-D :whistle:

Fed wasn't peaking at 30 or 34. Peak Murray and peak Wawrinka alone don't sound nearly as impressive. He did manhandle peak Nadal though. The way he set him apart and got in his head in 2011 was similar to the shift in the Hewitt-Federer rivalry during 2004, except peak Nadal >>>>>> peak Hewitt.
 

GhostofPetros

Semi-Pro
Fed wasn't peaking at 30 or 34. Peak Murray and peak Wawrinka alone don't sound nearly as impressive. He did manhandle peak Nadal though. The way he set him apart and got in his head in 2011 was similar to the shift in the Hewitt-Federer rivalry during 2004, except peak Nadal >>>>>> peak Hewitt.
Fed said in 2013, 2015, 2017, and 2019 he was playing his best ever tennis. I'll take his word for it bud.
 

GhostofPetros

Semi-Pro
This is so dumb people not admitting that Djokovic is GOAT because they want to hold on to their Federer myths. When Federer got to just 12 slams, he was considered the GOAT despite being two slams behind Sampras.

People need to stop kidding themselves.
He was being called GOAT long before 12 slams.
 

Jai

Professional
I’ll accept him as GOAT with 21 slams.

If Novak Djokovic fans are so certain of their man’s brilliance, then he should get there soon enough and secure my vote as the greatest (despite my animosity towards him).

:whistle:
Well, am something of an anomaly in this deeply, sometimes viciously partisan forum - am a Djokodal fan who also respects Fed's superbly artistic game (though I'm not a fan of his).

From that POV, let me try to respond to your comment above.

1) whom you, phoenix1983, accept or don't accept as GOAT, is upto you and is of zilch consequence to anyone apart from you personally or at max, people you know on an individual level. I don't mean this to be rude, the same goes for anyone else on this forum. "Convincing" you is not something anyone is obligated to do, nor is anyone required to be interested in "securing your vote".

2) I, personally, am certain of Novak's brilliance and I am quite certain he will have the slam record. But even if that doesn't happen, it's ok. I would be disappointed, but it doesn't take away from the greatness of all he has achieved.

3) Whether you, personally, like to accept it or not, there is a legitimate argument to be made that lead in other stats (weeks #1, h2h, masters titles), compensate for a 1 slam difference even now. And even that argument would become moot if the slam tallies are tied. This may not be your opinion. But there are numerous records each of the Big 3 hold. You have your view, others have theirs.

Try to admire the greatness of other players too, without tinging it with animosity. Greatness deserves to be applauded.
 
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TopspintheTerrible

Hall of Fame
Your LeBron Jordan analogy. You know it and know it.

You’re arguing who’s the GOAT. I’m saying nobody outside of Serbia really cares about Novak now & I doubt anybody will care that much in 10 yrs. Novak has always seemed to want the crowd to be with him & yet they never are, even at the height of his career. So I’m just not sure why those sentiments will change when he’s not on a court anymore.
 

GhostofPetros

Semi-Pro
You’re arguing who’s the GOAT. I’m saying nobody outside of Serbia really cares about Novak now & I doubt anybody will care that much in 10 yrs. Novak has always seemed to want the crowd to be with him & yet they never are, even at the height of his career. So I’m just not sure why those sentiments will change when he’s not on a court anymore.
And none of that matters one bit for Novak's arguments over Fedal, which is the subject of the thread.
 

Tsongerer

Rookie
I think Double career slam, Nole slam, most weeks at #1, tied for most year end #1s, double golden masters, winning head to head over fellow GOAT contenders is worth more than being one slam ahead and having the most consecutive semi-final appearances in slams tbh

Grandparer beat peak Nole at grass and clay in slams and got matchpoints at HC. Fed 2005-2007 would straight set that same grandparer without a single tiebreak. I think peak level + slam count are the only things that matter. We know that if Fed 2005-2007 plays Nole 2011, 2015 or first half 2016, he will win more often than not on rebound ace AO, RG, Wimby and USO and probably only lose more often than not on plexicushion AO. This is the logical conclusion if you are honest with yourself and admit Feds wins and MPs on all three surfaces in slams (after turning 30 and Nole being in his absolute peak) are pretty much indicators of how Nole just started winning after Fed got too old and how he simply has a lower peak level. Just because Fed still plays with 1 foot in the retirement home, Rafa still did well at RG late in his career and Wawrinka occasionally could expose his one dimensional baseline pushing game in BO5's doesn't mean that his competition since 2015 has mostly been laughable. That is why he has to at least overtake Federer in GS count to be considered the GOAT (which would be GOAT of consistency, not of peak level which would be Fed for HC and grass and Rafa for clay).
 

Jai

Professional
You’re arguing who’s the GOAT. I’m saying nobody outside of Serbia really cares about Novak now & I doubt anybody will care that much in 10 yrs. Novak has always seemed to want the crowd to be with him & yet they never are, even at the height of his career. So I’m just not sure why those sentiments will change when he’s not on a court anymore.
I'm from India. Plenty of Novak fans across the length and breadth of our vast country. You need to get over your narrow, parochial definitions of where his fanbase comes from. Your constant "no one outside Serbia cares" is narrow minded, besides being sorta xenophobic.
 

TopspintheTerrible

Hall of Fame
I'm from India. Plenty of Novak fans across the length and breadth of our vast country. You need to get over your narrow, parochial definitions of where his fanbase comes from. Your constant "no one outside Serbia cares" is narrow minded, besides being sorta xenophobic.

Nobody outside of America really cares about Tom Brady. It doesn’t bother me.
 

GhostofPetros

Semi-Pro
Grandparer beat peak Nole at grass and clay in slams and got matchpoints at HC. Fed 2005-2007 would straight set that same grandparer without a single tiebreak. I think peak level + slam count are the only things that matter. We know that if Fed 2005-2007 plays Nole 2011, 2015 or first half 2016, he will win more often than not on rebound ace AO, RG, Wimby and USO and probably only lose more often than not on plexicushion AO. This is the logical conclusion if you are honest with yourself and admit Feds wins and MPs on all three surfaces in slams (after turning 30 and Nole being in his absolute peak) are pretty much indicators of how Nole just started winning after Fed got too old and how he simply has a lower peak level. Just because Fed still plays with 1 foot in the retirement home, Rafa still did well at RG late in his career and Wawrinka occasionally could expose his one dimensional baseline pushing game in BO5's doesn't mean that his competition since 2015 has mostly been laughable. That is why he has to at least overtake Federer in GS count to be considered the GOAT (which would be GOAT of consistency, not of peak level which would be Fed for HC and grass and Rafa for clay).
2012 Fed was not "grandparer", in fact he grew into a better, more complete player in 2015, 17, and 19 as he himself stated. The rest of this is mostly projections which I'm not of a mood to get into. What I DO know is that Nole leads Fed 11-6 in grand slam encounters in the real world.
 

Jai

Professional
Nobody outside of America really cares about Tom Brady. It doesn’t bother me.
That's a poor excuse for making the untrue and ignorant arguments you made earlier. India is not Serbia, you see. :) and there are a multitude of fans and media globally who follow tennis, and yes, root for Novak. You need to brush up your geography.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
I think most tennis experts realized that he was playing like the BOAT already in 2015-16 and Federer in particular didn‘t believe he was better than Djokovic in their matches since that period. So, I think most experts have been waiting for him to break all the records and get to the GOAT title uncontested - the delay of elbow surgery in 2016-2017 due to New Age beliefs in Pepe and the COVID year have just delayed the ascension to the peak. It is time now for our emotional dissonance to vanish and for the records to match what our eyes have been telling us for a while.

The man himself believes it and that is what gives him the unshakeable belief that he will win all close matches.
 

GhostofPetros

Semi-Pro
That's a poor excuse for making the untrue and ignorant arguments you made earlier. India is not Serbia, you see. :) and there are a multitude of fans and media globally who follow tennis, and yes, root for Novak. You need to brush up your geography.
Even if it WERE true (which I agree its not) it would have absolutely no bearing on Novak's greatness over his rivals.
 

GhostofPetros

Semi-Pro
I think most tennis experts realized that he was playing like the BOAT already in 2015-16 and Federer in particular didn‘t believe he was better than Djokovic in their matches since that period. So, I think most experts have been waiting for him to break all the records and get to the GOAT title uncontested - the delay of elbow surgery in 2016-2017 due to New Age beliefs in Pepe and the COVID year have just delayed the ascension to the peak. It is time now for our emotional dissonance to vanish and for the records to match what our eyes have been telling us for a while.

The man himself believes it and that is what gives him the unshakeable belief that he will win all close matches.
Well said.
 

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
You can't really argue much against Djoker now that he has the Double Career Slam and Weeks #1 Record. He doesn't even need 21 slams being that Nadal/Fed never won the Double

You very much can argue against him.

If none of the three men won another slam, I can guarantee that, when looking back in decades to come, many would favour the Swiss and the Spaniard over the Serb.
 

GhostofPetros

Semi-Pro
You very much can argue against him.

If none of the three men won another slam, I can guarantee that, when looking back in decades to come, many would favour the Swiss and the Spaniard over the Serb.
If they make the effort to look up slams, they'll make the effort to know the major achievements. Fedalovic all have more majors than Laver, yet most still consider Rod the GOAT.
 

TopspintheTerrible

Hall of Fame
And none of that matters one bit for Novak's arguments over Fedal, which is the subject of the thread.

5d54zj.jpg
 

vex

Legend
LeBron can win 10 rings & you’ll still never convince anybody he’s better than Jordan. And maybe he would be but honestly nobody would give a sh*t either. Same goes for Djokovic. Outside of Serbia & apart from his club level pusher fans, nobody cares. In 10 years people will still be talking about 2008 Wimby, 2017 AusOpen & Nadal’s 13 RG titles. And Djokovic will be remembered as a consistent player who got really angry often & hit a line judge.

Congrats on 19 though(y)
Lol yah, I’m sure they’ll be talking a lot the 3rd place guy’s RG records or when Fed won a slam while Djoker was injured rather than the slam title holder LOL
 

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
Yes of course !!!!! Djoko is the super duper GOAT. Here is a list of tier 1 titles by age for the big 3. Djoko has the most with 60 (Nadal has 56 and Fed 54). But you have to add the weeks at #1 record, the year ends at #1 record, the complete set of 9 masters + 4 slams + WTF, the DCGS and the Djoko slam (holding all 4 at once), the dominant head to head vs his main rivals and top 10 in general







Tier 1 won at same age for the big 3:

18 years old- Nadal: 2 (2 Masters)- Fed/Djoko: 0
19- Nadal: 5 (1 Slam + 4 Masters) - Djoko: 1 (1 M) - Fed: 0
20- Nadal/Djoko: 4 (1 S + 3 M) - Fed: 1 (1 M)
21- Nadal: 3 (1 S + 2 M) - Fed: 1 (1 S) - Djoko: 1 (WTF)
22- Nadal: 7 (3 S + 4 M) - Fed: 6 (2 S + 3 M + WTF) - Djoko: 1 (1 M)


23- Fed: 6 ( 2 S + 3 M + WTF) - Djoko: 5 (1 S + 4 M) - Nadal: 3 (3 M)
24- Fed: 6 (3 S + 3 M) - Djoko: 5 (3 S + 2 M) - Nadal: 4 ( 3 S + 1 M)
25- Fed: 7 (3 S + 3 M + WTF) - Djoko: 5 ( 1 S + 3 M + WTF) - Nadal: 3 (1 S + 2 M)


26- Djoko: 6 (5 M + WTF) - Nadal: 4 (1 S + 3 M) - Fed: 3 ( 1 S + 1 M + WTF)
27- Djoko: 8 (2 S + 5 M + WTF) - Nadal: 5 (2 S + 3 M) - Fed: 4 (3 S + 1 M)
28- Djoko: 9 ( 3 S + 5 M + WTF) - Fed: 2 (1 S + 1 M) - Nadal: 1 (1 S)
29- Djoko: 2 ( 1 S + 1 M) - Fed: 2 (1 M + WTF) - Nadal: 1 (1 M)


30- Fed: 5 (1 S + 3 M + WTF) - Nadal: 2 ( 2 S + 2 M) - Djoko: 0
31- Djoko: 6 (3 S + 3 M) - Nadal: 4 (2 S + 2 M) - Fed: 1 (1 M)
32- Djoko: 3 (2 S + 1 M) - Nadal: 3 (1 S + 2 M) - Fed: 0
33- Nadal: 3 (2 S + 1 M) - Djoko: 3 (1 S + 2 M) - Fed: 2 (2 M)


I stopped at 33 since Djoko has just turned 34 and we don't know yet how much he'll win by end of May next year.
Note that Nadal is the only one who did not have a single year without tier 1 titles since 18 (Fed had no tier 1 at 32, Djoko at 30). Kudos for "robotic" consistency!
Also note that Novak's 33rd year corresponded to the COVID pandemic and that a number of tier 1 events were not played that year, including Wimbledon.
Other than that, the age pattern is quite clear I think!
Djoko leads with 7 years at # 1, of which 4 consecutive: 20, 26, 27, 28, 29, 31 and 32
Nadal has 6, of which 5 consecutive: 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 and 33
Fed has 4, of which 3 consecutive: 23, 24, 25 and 30

Long live GOAT KING Djoko!!!!!!!!! (to be continued...)
 
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Krish872007

Talk Tennis Guru
If they make the effort to look up slams, they'll make the effort to know the major achievements. Fedalovic all have more majors than Laver, yet most still consider Rod the GOAT.

Also worth noting that Laver actually has 19 Pro Majors in total with the pre / post-Open Era corrections. And as we know he won the Grand Slam twice, a feat which has not been replicated in 52 years. Its easy for people to dismiss him from conversations today for a number of reasons but I think there are a lot of strong arguments for him if we are genuinely talking about "All Time" and not just the 21st century
 

GhostofPetros

Semi-Pro
Yes of course !!!!! Djoko is the super duper GOAT. Here is a list of tier 1 titles by age for the big 3. Djoko has the most with 60. But you have to add the weeks at #1 record, the year ends at #1 record, the complete set of 9 masters + 4 slams + WTF, the DCGS and the Djoko slam (holding all 4 at once), the dominant head to head vs his main rivals and top 10 in general







Tier 1 won at same age for the big 3:

18 years old- Nadal: 2 (2 Masters)- Fed/Djoko: 0
19- Nadal: 5 (1 Slam + 4 Masters) - Djoko: 1 (1 M) - Fed: 0
20- Nadal/Djoko: 4 (1 S + 3 M) - Fed: 1 (1 M)
21- Nadal: 3 (1 S + 2 M) - Fed: 1 (1 S) - Djoko: 1 (WTF)
22- Nadal: 7 (3 S + 4 M) - Fed: 6 (2 S + 3 M + WTF) - Djoko: 1 (1 M)


23- Fed: 6 ( 2 S + 3 M + WTF) - Djoko: 5 (1 S + 4 M) - Nadal: 3 (3 M)
24- Fed: 6 (3 S + 3 M) - Djoko: 5 (3 S + 2 M) - Nadal: 4 ( 3 S + 1 M)
25- Fed: 7 (3 S + 3 M + WTF) - Djoko: 5 ( 1 S + 3 M + WTF) - Nadal: 3 (1 S + 2 M)


26- Djoko: 6 (5 M + WTF) - Nadal: 4 (1 S + 3 M) - Fed: 3 ( 1 S + 1 M + WTF)
27- Djoko: 8 (2 S + 5 M + WTF) - Nadal: 5 (2 S + 3 M) - Fed: 4 (3 S + 1 M)
28- Djoko: 9 ( 3 S + 5 M + WTF) - Fed: 2 (1 S + 1 M) - Nadal: 1 (1 S)
29- Djoko: 2 ( 1 S + 1 M) - Fed: 2 (1 M + WTF) - Nadal: 1 (1 M)


30- Fed: 5 (1 S + 3 M + WTF) - Nadal: 2 ( 2 S + 2 M) - Djoko: 0
31- Djoko: 6 (3 S + 3 M) - Nadal: 4 (2 S + 2 M) - Fed: 1 (1 M)
32- Djoko: 3 (2 S + 1 M) - Nadal: 3 (1 S + 2 M) - Fed: 0
33- Nadal: 3 (2 S + 1 M) - Djoko: 3 (1 S + 2 M) - Fed: 2 (2 M)


I stopped at 33 since Djoko has just turned 34 and we don't know yet how much he'll win by end of May next year.
Note that Nadal is the only one who did not have a single year without tier 1 titles since 18 (Fed had no tier 1 at 32, Djoko at 30). Kudos for "robotic" consistency!
Also note that Novak's 33rd year corresponded to the COVID pandemic and that a number of tier 1 events were not played that year, including Wimbledon.
Other than that, the age pattern is quite clear I think!
Djoko leads with 7 years at # 1, of which 4 consecutive: 20, 26, 27, 28, 29, 31 and 32
Nadal has 6, of which 5 consecutive: 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 and 33
Fed has 4, of which 3 consecutive: 23, 24, 25 and 30

Long live GOAT KING Djoko!!!!!!!!! (to be continued...)
Great research friend! Keep it up!
 

vex

Legend
For anyone in here ripping Fed’s pre-2011 slam wins, Fed couldn’t control his opponents level and thier level didn’t effect his level at all. Fed has proven repeatedly what kind of player he is. Show him some respect
 

Tsongerer

Rookie
2012 Fed was not "grandparer", in fact he grew into a better, more complete player in 2015, 17, and 19 as he himself stated. The rest of this is mostly projections which I'm not of a mood to get into. What I DO know is that Nole leads Fed 11-6 in grand slam encounters in the real world.

Yes 35 year old Fed was better than 25 year old Fed (even though in pretty much every relevant sport in the world athletes peak around their mid 20s and the most ridiculous GOAT tier seasons are recorded by athletes in their mid 20s). Where logic starts, that's where Nole fans vanish.

The fact that you have to convince yourself that grandparer was actually Feds peak to justify peak Nole's loses or MPs against on all surfaces in GSs is mental gymnastics of the very highest order. If you can't come up with better "excuses" as for why Nole lost/struggled mightily against an early 30s Fed, then there is no point for discussion.

20s Fed was 4-1 vs Nole in slams (hardcourt only btw, Nole's most suitable surface) and the overall H2H was terrible for Nole too (something like 12-6 iirc). Nole's peak coincided with Fed turning 30 (that's what a 6 year age difference does). That's all there is to say to be honest. People with an IQ above 85 and a semi decent level of consciousness can acknowledge that most athletes in most relevant sports peak around the mid 20s and therefore it is logical to assume that grandparer beating peak Nole is an indication that peak Fed (05-07) beats peak Nole (11/15) more often than not in less than 5 sets anywhere except the plexicushion AO.
 

GhostofPetros

Semi-Pro
Yes 35 year old Fed was better than 25 year old Fed (even though in pretty much every relevant sport in the world athletes peak around their mid 20s and the most ridiculous GOAT tier seasons are recorded by athletes in their mid 20s). Where logic starts, that's where Nole fans vanish.

The fact that you have to convince yourself that grandparer was actually Feds peak to justify peak Nole's loses or MPs against on all surfaces in GSs is mental gymnastics of the very highest order. If you can't come up with better "excuses" as for why Nole lost/struggled mightily against an early 30s Fed, then there is no point for discussion.

20s Fed was 4-1 vs Nole in slams (hardcourt only btw, Nole's most suitable surface) and the overall H2H was terrible for Nole too (something like 12-6 iirc). Nole's peak coincided with Fed turning 30 (that's what a 6 year age difference does). That's all there is to say to be honest. People with an IQ above 85 and a semi decent level of consciousness can acknowledge that most athletes in most relevant sports peak around the mid 20s and therefore it is logical to assume that grandparer beating peak Nole is an indication that peak Fed (05-07) beats peak Nole (11/15) more often than not in less than 5 sets anywhere except the plexicushion AO.
So Fed was lying about his own peak level? And Nole fans are the one who have no logic?
 

Tsongerer

Rookie
So Fed was lying about his own peak level? And Nole fans are the one who have no logic?

Feds words are more important than all the relevant statistics in all the relevant sports in the world? Maybe it fitted his narrative when he said that (like Djokovic saying that him beating 35 yo Rafa friday was a top 3 match in his career JFL), but whatever his reason was, if it doesn't match with the stats I don't care. Just because Fed is my favourite player, doesn't mean I take his words for gospel. I try to be as logically consistent as possible and therefore I believe that tennis is no exception in that the players peak around their mid 20s. Therefore I have to believe that mid 20s Nole losing to early 30s Fed is an indicator of mid 20s Fed being probably superior to Nole in all slams except plexicushion AO. I just can't see the flaws in that line of thinking.

Therefore, Nole has to at least overtake Feds GS count to be considered the GOAT (of consistency).
 

Fiero425

Legend
Pretty close to effectively over in my view. 20 would be the cherry on top, but it's unnecessary to overtake Fedal, imo.

Yep; ya need it for these hardcore Fedal fans who are already softening the blow by screaming from the roof-tops; "Fedal got old" as if Nole's still in his 20's! Ridiculous of course, but expected! It's been sad and pathetic these last few years with Djokovic's detractors "reaching" more and more to stay on top of this GOAT race as he acquired his majors in bunches to catch up to Fedal so quickly! Technically he's already ahead of schedule as they do have years on him on the tour! For him to be 1 major behind, but leading in all other record catagories, it's almost embarrassing the defense of Fedal as twin GOAT's!:-D
 

GhostofPetros

Semi-Pro
Feds words are more important than all the relevant statistics in all the relevant sports in the world? Maybe it fitted his narrative when he said that (like Djokovic saying that him beating 35 yo Rafa friday was a top 3 match in his career JFL), but whatever his reason was, if it doesn't match with the stats I don't care. Just because Fed is my favourite player, doesn't mean I take his words for gospel. I try to be as logically consistent as possible and therefore I believe that tennis is no exception in that the players peak around their mid 20s. Therefore I have to believe that mid 20s Nole losing to early 30s Fed is an indicator of mid 20s Fed being probably superior to Nole in all slams except plexicushion AO. I just can't see the flaws in that line of thinking.

Therefore, Nole has to at least overtake Feds GS count to be considered the GOAT (of consistency).
In tennis, stats don't determine level, competition generally does. For example, Fed may go out and feel like a million bucks and beat Roddick 6-3, 6-3. 6-3 and then play Novak at the same exact level and lose 3-6, 3-6, 3-6. Your competition determines how well you accumulate stats. Therefore stats are not as objective a measure as a player who knows far more about their level than you or I.
 

duaneeo

Legend
Federer still has the greater records at the slams: More slam titles, 6 titles won at two different slams, 5 titles won at three different slams, a stand-alone record at Wimbledon/a shared record at the USO, 5 consecutive titles won at 2 different slams, all slam finals made 3 different seasons, 3 slam titles won 3 different seasons, defended 3 different slams multiple times (Wimbledon and USO 4 times, AO twice).

Federer still has the WTF record (three won in BO5 finals). Federer also has the record of 237 consecutive weeks at #1.

For many records Federer doesn't have, he's runner-up (weeks-at-#1, AO titles).

Nole gets points for winning all 9 Masters, but the double Grand Masters (with Cincinnati won in New York) has a huge asterisk. And, the records are skewed. Many Masters had BO5 finals (as did some 500 and 250 events) during Federer's peak, so he often skipped them (didn't play the Masters 9 times from 04 - 06). To add, no grass tournaments.
 
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