So basically, have we all admitted to ourselves Novak is > Fedal?

myth said:
Taking into account only numbers Novak is ahead.
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Yeah but those are not just numbers. They are stats that reflect achievements. Superior and unique achievements.
And the achievements themselves reflect skills, mental fortitude, persistence and courage.
 
I have seen a lot of butthurt comments but let me say something...

As great Ben Shapiro once said:"Facts dont care about your feelings".


Djokovic is Goat and after he gets 21 he will be undisputed goat and thats it...


Tennis is individual sport and unlike football or basketball it is much easier to judge and formulate an argument...


Sorry boys
 
Premise: I'm a Federer fan, albeit not the fanatical kind that lets himself be blinded by allegiance. The reality is, no other player has achieved the kind of transcendental status and quasi-divine aura that Roger reached at the height of his success, with the possible exception of Borg in his lustrum or so of dominance. Equally undisputable is the fact that no other player has so fully embodied the quintessence and the beauty of the game.

Then, of course, there are the numbers. And when all is said and done, those will tell a different story.
 
Baseline_Bungle said:
Premise: I'm a Federer fan, albeit not the fanatical kind that lets himself be blinded by allegiance. The reality is, no other player has achieved the kind of transcendental status and quasi-divine aura that Roger reached at the height of his success, with the possible exception of Borg in his lustrum or so of dominance. Equally undisputable is the fact that no other player has so fully embodied the quintessence and the beauty of the game.

Then, of course, there are the numbers. And when all is said and done, those will tell a different story.
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The quasi-divine nonsense was all hype from the puppet pundits and dummy journalists who have never actually experienced the Divine so they have to fish for It in a tennis player's movements. They then transmitted their slavish doting onto the rest of the public who followed suit. None of this matters ultimately, as you well say, the stats, analysis, and realities will tell the true story.
 
A lot of moving goal posts here. Casual sports fan care about GS. Novak needs to get to 20 to be considered GOAT. He owns pretty much every tiebreaker but he need to get even.
Second. This idea that he cant be considered GOAT because he is not popular like other 2 is dumb. Very few people like Brady but he is consider GOAT because of his accomplishments. I dont like Lebron but if he wins 1 more I gotta put him ahead of Jordan.
 
GhostofPetros said:
The quasi-divine nonsense was all hype from the puppet pundits and dummy journalists who have never actually experienced the Divine so they have to fish for It in a tennis player's movements. They then transmitted their slavish doting onto the rest of the public who followed suit. None of this matters ultimately, as you well say, the stats, analysis, and realities will tell the true story.
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Nice theory, but even most of the pros think Roger is the GOAT
 
initialize said:
Nice theory, but even most of the pros think Roger is the GOAT
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Of course they do, they were playing along to the media's tune. Even Rafa and Nole were obliged to call him GOAT as a courtesy, even after beating him in slam finals. Thankfully they both freed themselves from this mental spell cast over the public. Its up to the rest of us to do the same.
 
GhostofPetros said:
Of course they do, they were playing along to the media's tune. Even Rafa and Nole were obliged to call him GOAT as a courtesy, even after beating him in slam finals. Thankfully they both freed themselves from this mental spell cast over the public. Its up to the rest of us to do the same.
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Nope, check out Tennis TVs video “Word Association” from a few days ago. The word “GOAT” was associated with Federer by 99% of the players
 
eagletennis said:
And today is especially weird. Some of people here mostly Fed fans took it really really hard. Amount of salt is staggering. I am wondering are they finally coming to conclusion that Djokovic can catch their guy or smt also. It was weird day here...and entertaining to be fair
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Yeah most of them have left or are salt posting. Most of the salt posters are new users though. The old timers seem to be gone for right now
 
At this point, when it's all said and done I expect there to be a marked gap between Djokovic and ............ Federer, Nadal.

I suspect those who "know tennis" will see Djokovic as the best of the "Big Three" era.

Already there are a slew of folks from all three fanbases giving it up to Djokovic, and it won't stop here. I guess Nadal has a shot to fire back, but I do not expect it. But Djokovic, well he's a threat at EVERY Major. Honestly, I didn't see this after Nadal won RG 2020 but his fortress just got shattered.

Many from the three fanbases are coming around to the idea that in the end Djokovic really is the best, and he might go on to win several more Slams yet. Who knows, a CYGS might be just around the corner.
 
-NN- said:
At this point, when it's all said and done I expect there to be a marked gap between Djokovic and ............ Federer, Nadal.

I suspect those who "know tennis" will see Djokovic as the best of the "Big Three" era.

Already there are a slew of folks from all three fanbases giving it up to Djokovic, and it won't stop here. I guess Nadal has a shot to fire back, but I do not expect it. But Djokovic, well he's a threat at EVERY Major. Honestly, I didn't see this after Nadal won RG 2020 but his fortress just got shattered.

Many from the three fanbases are coming around to the idea that in the end Djokovic really is the best, and he might go on to win several more Slams yet. Who knows, a CYGS might be just around the corner.
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I'm so conflicted about CYGS. On the one hand it would be epic not just for Nolefans but tennis in general to have something like this happen in our generation. On the otherhand, I'm worried about the insane level of pressure it would put on Nole and if that could lead to an early retirement even IF he pulls it off. I want him around a couple more years lol
 
GhostofPetros said:
I'm so conflicted about CYGS. On the one hand it would be epic not just for Nolefans but tennis in general to have something like this happen in our generation. On the otherhand, I'm worried about the insane level of pressure it would put on Nole and if that could lead to an early retirement even IF he pulls it off. I want him around a couple more years lol
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Highly doubt Djokovic is going anywhere any time soon. Only if Federer and Nadal (at this point only really Nadal) gave it up and retired. He's a somewhat tumultuous character but deep down I think he does actually love the game.
 
Baseline_Bungle said:
Premise: I'm a Federer fan, albeit not the fanatical kind that lets himself be blinded by allegiance. The reality is, no other player has achieved the kind of transcendental status and quasi-divine aura that Roger reached at the height of his success, with the possible exception of Borg in his lustrum or so of dominance. Equally undisputable is the fact that no other player has so fully embodied the quintessence and the beauty of the game.

Then, of course, there are the numbers. And when all is said and done, those will tell a different story.
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On the other hand, the “numbers” are not simply digits that Djokovic entered in a calculator. He actually went out and beat Federer many times, owning the most wins over him ever…

Obviously there is an age difference but I think the strongest case each of the Big 3 have is that they took Slams off of 2 of the greatest players of all time playing some of the best tennis of all time. You can’t boil that down to “numbers” - they were real moments that happened.
 
With Nadal I think there are strong arguments for Djokovic to be ahead already, I always thought Djokovic had "enough" arguments over Nadal even before this victory despite being behind in slam count, but with Federer it gets a bit trickier. I definitely think his Nole slam, double CGS, golden masters, weeks at #1, year end #1s are strong arguments already, but it feels like he has to do "a little bit more" to assert himself firmly over Federer.
 
RF-18 said:
With Nadal I think there are strong arguments for Djokovic to be ahead already, I always thought Djokovic had "enough" arguments over Nadal even before this victory despite being behind in slam count, but with Federer it gets a bit trickier. I definitely think his Nole slam, double CGS, golden masters, weeks at #1, year end #1s are strong arguments already, but it feels like he has to do "a little bit more" to assert himself over Federer.
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He's dominated him 11-6 in slams. What more do you want?
 
Djoker does not feel like the greatest player ever. He just doesn't. Greatest? He only beat a down and out and then aging Nadal at RG. He never beat Fed at Wimbledon when Fed was good. He has a losing record in slam finals at the USO. He's not that dominant in slams and slam finals. He survives a lot of these five setters like he did today. Djoker was good at the AO, consistent in Masters and consistent overall, but he does not scream GOAT. He's more of a compiler. When you watched Nadal and Fed in the 2008 W or 2009 AO, ths star power jumped off the screen. You never feel like the with Djoker.

Further, Djoker doesn't have the slam record or a share of the slam record yet, so we'll see what happens. The last time he won the French Open he went into the tank for two years.
 
Antonio Puente said:
Djoker does not feel like the greatest player ever. He just doesn't. Greatest? He only beat a down and out and then aging Nadal at RG. He never beat Fed at Wimbledon when Fed was good. He has a losing record in slam finals at the USO. He's not that dominant in slams and slam finals. He survives a lot of these five setters like he did today. Djoker was good at the AO, consistent in Masters and consistent overall, but he does not scream GOAT. He's more of a compiler. When you watched Nadal and Fed in the 2008 W or 2009 AO, ths star power jumped off the screen. You never feel like the with Djoker.

Further, Djoker doesn't have the slam record or a share of the slam record yet, so we'll see what happens. The last time he won the French Open he went into the tank for two years.
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I need a better argument than "he just doesn't 'feel' like the greatest..."
 
GhostofPetros said:
He's dominated him 11-6 in slams. What more do you want?
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As I said, there are already strong arguments for Djokovic to be put above Federer, he almost has his numbers everywhere right now, and that 1 slam deficit can definitely be kicked out of the park by Djokovic's extraordinary achievements like winning all slams atleast twice, #1 records, holding all 4 slams at the same time, winning all big titles in tennis atleast twice, his 1on1 records against his biggest rivals (beating them multiple times aswell at their home slams). Djokovic has essentially unlocked the game and achieved everything there possibly is. The only goal he has left really is achieving the Grand Slam (if we even really can call it a realistic goal since in these times it's impossible to do).

For me personally, I've always said Djokovic is the best player, even years back when he was just entering the conversation of one of the greats and I got so much backlash for it ,the problem was he didn't have the numbers to back it up, but now he truly has amassed the numbers and achievements. There should be no issues really now to claim he is the greatest of the three right now (I say this cause the 3 of them are still playing, who knows what can still happen) but I understand those who still would back Federer. Regarding Nadal, no, Djokovic is firmly ahead of him right now.
 
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PilotPete said:
Guys from Fed's era own Djokodal
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Djoko has only about 11 players in the history of game who have lead him in H2H. I think Rafa is about 10. Plus only 2 of these players for Novak lead him by 2, the rest just 1 win. Same really for Rafa. Whereas Fed has a losing H2H to over 25 players and also 2 his biggest rivals. It shows Feds early era was pretty weak.
 
Djokovic with this win has placed Fedal under maximum pressure. They both know they need more slams now or the inevitable of Djoko being the undisputed best looks very likely. Novak has a big case already now but it could be put beyond all doubt soon.

Incredible to say this but despite everything Nadal and Federer have achieved there resume isn’t enough. It looks like 20 slams isn’t going to be enough. Can Fed and Rafa reinvent themselves for one last charge? As Novak right now is on a mission to be the GOAT.
 
Djokovic_is_the_best#1 said:
Djokovic with this win has placed Fedal under maximum pressure. They both know they need more slams now or the inevitable of Djoko being the undisputed best looks very likely. Novak has a big case already now but it could be put beyond all doubt soon.

Incredible to say this but despite everything Nadal and Federer have achieved there resume isn’t enough. It looks like 20 slams isn’t going to be enough. Can Fed and Rafa reinvent themselves for one last charge? As Novak right now is on a mission to be the GOAT.
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Rafa probably can scrape another RG and USO if the draw opens up and Nole is upset. Fed...I never count him out, but it feels like this Wimbledon might be it. Then again, he may have another Fedaissance and come back ready to win another major next year.
 
What would the typical IQ be for the following categories of tennis fans?

- Those who think Djokovic is the GOAT
- Those who think Nadal is the GOAT
- Those who think Federer is the GOAT.

Bonus 10 points on IQ from your test score if you thought Djokovic was the GOAT more than two years ago. Reduce 20 points from IQ test score if you still think Federer is the GOAT. On the other hand, those who think Federer is still the GOAT might be the most creative as they come up with more and more convoluted theories to justify this. Discuss (disgust)!
 
socallefty said:
What would the typical IQ be for the following categories of tennis fans?

- Those who think Djokovic is the GOAT
- Those who think Nadal is the GOAT
- Those who think Federer is the GOAT.

Bonus 10 points on IQ from your test score if you thought Djokovic was the GOAT more than two years ago. Reduce 20 points from IQ test score if you still think Federer is the GOAT. On the other hand, thise who think Federer is still the GOAT might be the most creative as they come up with more and more convoluted theories to justify this. Discuss (disgust)!
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Highest IQ is those who think Borg is GOAT, second most those who think Pete and Nole are GOAT.
 
Sunny014 said:
Nole had to beg before Becker to improve his grass game after he was having just 1 slam on his 27th birthday, isn't that pathetic?

Do you think he would have had the luxury to win 4 slams from 27 onwards on Grass with 2 young ATGs below him in the immediate next gen aged 5-6 years younger ???

Only turf where Nole was great from day 1 was on HCs like Fed and it is there where he is comparable to Federer.
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I wish I had 1 grass slam at 27. Don't consider it pathetic at all.
 
Tying Federer and Nadal for 20 would surely seal the deal but yeah, I'm ready to consider Djokovic the GOAT. Getting 19, winning all four majors twice, having the number 1 ranking record, combined with his back-to-back victories over Nadal and Tsitsipas have settled this in my mind. The one slam differential is no merely a reminder that Djokovic is younger than the other two and started getting good later than they did. It's not an indicator that they are greater than he is.
 
Beckerserve said:
If Nadal wins slam race he is greatest. If Federer does he is greatest. If Djokovic does he is. That is called competitive sport.
I am happy to let it play out. If you want to give up at this stage lol then that is your choice. Doubt Djokovic will. Or Rafa. Or Roger.
Game on Bud.
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Answer this if only the 8 weeks of the majors count towards GOAT why do they even have the other tournaments? Why do the big three waste their time? The entire season counts.
To use an analogy that would be like determining who is the greatest baseball player in history by homeruns alone. Batting average, RBI, strikeouts, defense it all comes into play. Same as match wins, titles, weeks at #1,but I think being the current #1 is bigger. You can't just disregard the other stiff. Each of the big 3 have their claims. Major wins is not the be all although it is the most important. Roger has titles and match wins, Rafa has olympic gold and clay domination, and Novak has overall domination and consistency such as each major title twice, and weeks at #1.

Let just say it is too close to call. It may always be too close to call. Novak cannot help there was no tournament at Wimbledon last year. He could help he hitting the lines person. He could very well be on 21 more than likely 20 at least.
 
reef58 said:
Answer this if only the 8 weeks of the majors count towards GOAT why do they even have the other tournaments? Why do the big three waste their time? The entire season counts.
To use an analogy that would be like determining who is the greatest baseball player in history by homeruns alone. Batting average, RBI, strikeouts, defense it all comes into play. Same as match wins, titles, weeks at #1,but I think being the current #1 is bigger. You can't just disregard the other stiff. Each of the big 3 have their claims. Major wins is not the be all although it is the most important. Roger has titles and match wins, Rafa has olympic gold and clay domination, and Novak has overall domination and consistency such as each major title twice, and weeks at #1.

Let just say it is too close to call. It may always be too close to call. Novak cannot help there was no tournament at Wimbledon last year. He could help he hitting the lines person. He could very well be on 21 more than likely 20 at least.
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He could have been but he isnt.
History only looks at Slams. Can u tell me without looking it up how many m1000s (super 9s as they were back then) Sampras won?
 
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