GhostofPetros
Semi-Pro
That coincided with Nole's loss of form as well though. This is just a wholesale retreat after a Nole win.
So basically, have we all admitted to ourselves Novak is > Fedal?
- Thread starter GhostofPetros
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TheNachoMan
Guest
Fed wasn’t good at Wimbledon in 14 and 15? lol
go watch his match vs Murray
GhostofPetros
Semi-Pro
These are frankly laudations to pile on achievements in order to hyperbolize him to the extreme. Nobody cares about winning 5 titles at 3 different venues. Nobody grows up to win 5 straight titles at 2 different slams, make all slam finals 3 different seasons, or to have the most consecutive weeks at #1 etc. These are important achievements, but not in the context of the GOAT debate. They're sort of like nice trivia facts on a collector's card.
Matheson
Semi-Pro
LeBron can win 10 rings & you’ll still never convince anybody he’s better than Jordan. And maybe he would be but honestly nobody would give a sh*t either. Same goes for Djokovic. Outside of Serbia & apart from his club level pusher fans, nobody cares. In 10 years people will still be talking about 2008 Wimby, 2017 AusOpen & Nadal’s 13 RG titles. And Djokovic will be remembered as a consistent player who got really angry often & hit a line judge.
Congrats on 19 though
Lmao. The cope is real. Fedal fans seething at the thought of the true GOAT.
GhostofPetros
Semi-Pro
Fed's '15 Semi v Murray was otherworldly, and it came against a multi-slam winner, as opposed to Ancic or back-from-injury Philippousis
GhostofPetros
Semi-Pro
I have to admit, as a long time PETE fan, I was both impressed and amazed by how good Nole's running forehand has become! That thing is a BULLET when you get him running out wide! Reminds me of how Pete used to clobber the ball square into the opponent's forehand and get winners, or forced errors from the sheer pace.
When making irrational statements like the above on "compiler" and not "feeling star power", better use "I never feel....." rather than the generic "you". YOU may feel whatever it is you want to feel, doesn't make it true or what everyone feels.
Your desired conclusion is driving your analysis, not the other way around. That's the wrong way to approach things.
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GhostofPetros
Semi-Pro
Appreciate it my friend!Spot on as usual
Djokovic doesn’t need “without Nadal” - he went out and beat him twice at his pet slam, and Fed 3 times
Fed actively needed Nadal and Djokovic injured so he could vulture and win slams in 09 & 17-18, where as Novak just goes out and destroys his in form main rivals.
Nole is too thug for this era. His balls of steel make Fedal look like mugs by comparison. Although there is something to be said for Fed's opportunism. Its kept him in the conversation this long, hasn't it?
Sampras-Bruguera 1993
Legend
His #s and overall body of work for the past 13 years makes him open Era GOAT. Not only has he won each slam at least twice but I think he's done the same at the Masters? INSANE. Sure his game is not the "greatest" we have ever seen (guys like prime Sampras and Fed and a few others have bigger and greater games etc) but his resume now is. At least for the open era
GhostofPetros
Semi-Pro
'greed. I think Pete had the highest level ever, but to be quite frank, Novak's peak level is right there. If only you could combine their powers...Olympus would tremble.
Sampras-Bruguera 1993
Legend
Nole's level is up agreed for 2011/2015 but I wouldn't give him a hope in hell personally against peak Sampras on medium/Fast courts. Pete had a game, DJoker probably would want to avoid at all costs outside slow surfaces. Djoker would be so flustered playing Pete outside AO/RG LOL
GhostofPetros
Semi-Pro
Oh for sure. I mean generally speaking, I would put Nole's peak level on Plexi and slow hards and like you said '11-'15 up there with PETE's on anything other than grass or indoor carpet at his very, very best
If he gets to 21 this year, which means he’s won the Grand Slam, I will certainly call him the GOAT. No question at all. Not right now though.
itrium84
Hall of Fame
There's a stat made almost exclusively to quantify competition level - ELO. It's the closest you can get to objective measure of one's competition.
itrium84
Hall of Fame
It's hard to win an argument against smart and objective people, but it's almost impossible to win an argument against subjective and stubborn people.
CHillTennis
Hall of Fame
LeBron can win 10 rings & you’ll still never convince anybody he’s better than Jordan. And maybe he would be but honestly nobody would give a sh*t either. Same goes for Djokovic. Outside of Serbia & apart from his club level pusher fans, nobody cares. In 10 years people will still be talking about 2008 Wimby, 2017 AusOpen & Nadal’s 13 RG titles. And Djokovic will be remembered as a consistent player who got really angry often & hit a line judge.
Congrats on 19 though
LeBron and MJ are not contemporaries. Djokovic, Nadal, and Federer more or less are.
BauerAlmeida
Hall of Fame
Federer still has the edge, for now, on slams and masters cup, which are the two most important events, so they're probably somewhat at the same level. Nadal is slightly below Djokovic unless you think slams are all that matters, but he's below in virtually everything else except for OG, and sometimes by a considerable margin (TMC).
For Djokovic and Federer, the OG will be crucial, they have the chance to match Agassi as the only players to win everything.
Nadal has that chance at the TMC. Obviously, he has the advantage of playing it every year, but this might be his last chance.
For Djokovic and Federer, the OG will be crucial, they have the chance to match Agassi as the only players to win everything.
Nadal has that chance at the TMC. Obviously, he has the advantage of playing it every year, but this might be his last chance.
itrium84
Hall of Fame
Fortunately, your personal feelings have zero importance to Novak's GOAThood.
duaneeo
Legend
I see. Nobody cares about winning 6 titles at 2 different venues, or 5 titles at 3 different venues, but surely everybody cares about winning 2 titles at 4 different venues.
And nobody grows up to win 5 consecutive Wimbledons, 5 consecutive USOs, or to remain #1 for 237 consecutive weeks, but surely everyone grows up to win 4 consecutive slams in a non-calendar year.
GhostofPetros
Semi-Pro
Tell me...if you were growing up to play tennis would your goal be to:I see. Nobody cares about winning 6 titles at 2 different venues, or 5 titles at 3 different venues, but surely everybody cares about winning 2 titles at 4 different venues.
And nobody grows up to win 5 consecutive Wimbledons, 5 consecutive USOs, or to remain #1 for 237 consecutive weeks, but surely everyone grows up to win 4 consecutive slams in a non-calendar year.
1) Break the record of winning "5 consecutive US Opens" or try to be the all time slam leader?
2) Make "all slam finals in a calendar year" or win the CYGS?
3) Break the "consecutive weeks at #1 record" or break the all time #1 weeks record?
Just curious.
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itrium84
Hall of Fame
It seems you're getting it.I see. Nobody cares about winning 6 titles at 2 different venues, or 5 titles at 3 different venues, but surely everybody cares about winning 2 titles at 4 different venues.
And nobody grows up to win 5 consecutive Wimbledons, 5 consecutive USOs, or to remain #1 for 237 consecutive weeks, but surely everyone grows up to win 4 consecutive slams in a non-calendar year.
My God, you have some patience debating with borderline trolls.
he will continue to cherry pick arbitrary stats, and make them up to be "records", just so he can spin the conclusion he wants. Admire you for the effort of debating with him, though. Just don't hold your breath expecting a productive discussion 
Djokinho
Rookie
This discussion looks sweet to me.
I remember 2015 when Djokovic beat Federer in WB and USO, Federer fans were so arrogant. It was said that Nole would never win at Roland Garros, never make 17 Slams, and that he would never dominate tennis for so long that he was #1 in weeks.
These days, I see the same Federer fans appealing to subjective issues like playing style, or nonsensical things like "fan passion".
Very good to see this change in behavior. From complete arrogant to cornered, afraid of reality.
What a sweet taste.
Let's move on.
Let them talk.
I remember 2015 when Djokovic beat Federer in WB and USO, Federer fans were so arrogant. It was said that Nole would never win at Roland Garros, never make 17 Slams, and that he would never dominate tennis for so long that he was #1 in weeks.
These days, I see the same Federer fans appealing to subjective issues like playing style, or nonsensical things like "fan passion".
Very good to see this change in behavior. From complete arrogant to cornered, afraid of reality.
What a sweet taste.
Let's move on.
Let them talk.
GhostofPetros
Semi-Pro
When you state your opinion in such a non-combative, unhateful, reasonable way, no one has a problem. In fact, rational Fedfans are some of my favorite people to talk to.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
He just passed Kyrgios in the all-time ranking. Still a ways to go before catching Federer and, eventually, Zverev.
GhostofPetros
Semi-Pro
Hope is so precious, yet so deceptive...
I just do not see the point of 'teaching cognitive ability'. It is a waste of life.
Some delusions are for life. Some minds cannot do any better.
Design of life, namely DNA -providing variance to maximize survival. And variance means both ends of distribution.
Vicious49
Legend
Dont you guys get tired of arguing the same thing over and over again? Its 1 reason i tend to stay out of this forum,
I dont like joker because he whines a lot on court, gets angry for no reason, and his dad cant keep his mouth shut. But after what he did at last years Wimbledon and this years FO, i have to admit hes probably more clutch than anyone ive seen. The guy can be down 2 sets and is still never really out if it. He looks like he has no energy and is being dominated and comes back to win. He has nerves of steel. Its tough to argue against that 1 aspect of his game.
I dont like joker because he whines a lot on court, gets angry for no reason, and his dad cant keep his mouth shut. But after what he did at last years Wimbledon and this years FO, i have to admit hes probably more clutch than anyone ive seen. The guy can be down 2 sets and is still never really out if it. He looks like he has no energy and is being dominated and comes back to win. He has nerves of steel. Its tough to argue against that 1 aspect of his game.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
I think it’s especially impressive when you consider that he improved his mental fortitude as he got older. Back in 2012-2014, he had a serious mental block when it came to the Slams and you’ll find several cases of him underperforming in the biggest occasions. Since 2015 (more accurately, Wimbledon 2014), however, he’s been nothing less than a mental beast.
It’s a contrast to Nadal and Federer losing their mental edges over time.
fundrazer
G.O.A.T.
Peak Krajicek > Pete on grass an indoors.
By the way man, you're posting almost 100 posts a day. Do you have any other hobbies, or a job?
GhostofPetros
Semi-Pro
You're the one checking up on my posting frequency and you're asking me about my quality of life?
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
Djokovic played too passively in those days in 2012-2014 Slam finals and waited for his opponents to give him points with errors mostly - worked well enough to be #1 in the world, but came up short against peaking Nadal, Wawrinka, Murray in Slam finals on multiple occasions. He also didn’t use his serve as effectively to set up favorable point patterns in those days.
I think hiring Becker as coach turned around his career as Becker improved his serve and taught him that he needed to ramp up his offense in the last two or three rounds of Slams against the very best. The rest is tennis history except for the prolonged period in 2016-2017 when he put off doing surgery on his elbow due to following a New-Age guru like Pepe. He played like the 2012-2014 Djokovic in a passive way for two sets today because he was flat from beating Nadal and then changed only when he got behind - he played pretty passively during the 2019 Wimbledon final also which is why it was close. I don’t know why he doesn’t leave that version behind and always play like the rampaging offensive Djokovic we saw against Nadal in the semi, Med in the 2020AO final, Nadal in the 2019AO final etc. - maybe he thinks it is too much for his body to always play like that.
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RelentlessAttack
Hall of Fame
The only argument against him is the inflation era, which is a legitimate problem, but Nadal steadily breaking down physically since 2013 and not being able to take advantage while being only a year over isn’t really a point in his favor.
Federer fans have a different set of arguments against Nole. For instance, if Nole played this match against 6 years younger Fedal like he played against Federer at W14/15/19, no way he scrapes through with a win like he did against Stef. But I’ll leave that up to Federer fans.
I personally think he’s shown himself by a slight but clear gap to the greatest of the Big 3 era, and if you think that player is the GOAT, you have to give him that acknowledgement. I don’t personally subscribe to that theory because of homogenization and other era related factors, but I know I’m in the minority
Federer fans have a different set of arguments against Nole. For instance, if Nole played this match against 6 years younger Fedal like he played against Federer at W14/15/19, no way he scrapes through with a win like he did against Stef. But I’ll leave that up to Federer fans.
I personally think he’s shown himself by a slight but clear gap to the greatest of the Big 3 era, and if you think that player is the GOAT, you have to give him that acknowledgement. I don’t personally subscribe to that theory because of homogenization and other era related factors, but I know I’m in the minority
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GhostofPetros
Semi-Pro
Inflation era cuts against Fed the most severely of the big 3, so I don't see how a Fedfan could use that with a straight face against Nole.
As far as an objective overall GOAT being impossible because of difference in conditions, I'm totally with you on that. I think Nole has the best resume of anyone in history though.
GhostofPetros
Semi-Pro
Inflation era has existed since 2004. But of the three who have benefited most, Nole is clearly the best
Vicious49
Legend
This is true. He didnt always have mamba mentality.
Someone will have to explain to me what inflation era is referring to.
its hard to compare players across different eras which is why its hard to label someone the goat. The thing that i would say Fed has in his favor is that he has the most timeless game out of the big 3. Meaning that he relies less on the racquets and strings of today than joker and certainly Nadal. Fed could have played with a wooden racquet and excelled in a serve and volley era. You cant saw the same about the other 2. The fact that he was able to win as much as he did in this current era is testament to his greatness IMO.
GhostofPetros
Semi-Pro
This is an overhyped, overstated sentiment. Federer in reality was never a true serve and volley player, he was an aggressive baseliner who could finish points at net once he got the opponent on the backfoot. Yes there are highlight reels of him serving and volleying, but he never actually won a major doing so, and his 2003 Wimbledon was something like 40% serve and volley which is nothing compared to the true serve and volley players like Petros and his group of slammers.
Federer's technique on his volleys in terms of bending his knees, keeping his wrist firm, having a stable upper body and shoulder etc. are NOT textbook and would NOT win him points in pre-poly era where strings don't allow you to get away with such poor technique. Imagining him playing serve and volley with that technique and a wooden racket is frankly, the stuff of nightmares.
Sampras was the last player to have a truly "timeless game". Dude was an allcourter first half of his career and pure serve and volleyer the second. Grew up using wood rackets, progressed into graphite as a pro, and even used poly in the last year of his career I believe.
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Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Right. I don't have a positive view of the legacy he is going to leave. But the records will show that he is the greatest. OK Fedal fans gonna clutch tightly to no. 20 ignoring that Novak has the straight slam that the other two never got but don't worry. Nole basically has all four slams in play now. He's easily going to match no. 20 and go past it. He might even go past Serena's 23.
And coming to what you said, yes, and if anything, he has hit a new gear after his 2016-17 slump. He has won two slams a year from 2018 (except '20 when one slam wasn't held and he got DQed in the other). This is his most productive period and he doesn't look like slowing down anytime soon. He's had really tough battles in several of these slams. The Nadal semi in Wimby, the Wimby 2019, AO 2020 final and now this. He's overcome all these hurdles and kept winning. It's frightening, really.
GhostofPetros
Semi-Pro
So...another 6 months tops?
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fundrazer
G.O.A.T.
Inflation era is just something folks came up with in regards how we have three guys basically exceeding what most people thought was possible in the sport. Many people think the reason they've been able to "inflate" their stats is the fact that unlike any other era in tennis, they weren't forced to retire due to a younger generation. We've actually had two or three generations of players go by now, and nobody has really stepped up.
If you were following professional tennis in 2015 or so it was kind of evident that it was starting to happen. Stan stepped up around that time, but no younger player was able to win a slam. At the moment we have one slam champion under 30 years old (Thiem).
duaneeo
Legend
Nole still has mental blocks at the slams. He still finds it difficult to play at his top ability consistently, to maintain frontrunner status during a match, and to serve out sets and matches. The only difference is that in 2012 - 2014 against stronger competition, he didn't get away with it. But since 2018, with Murray and Wawrinka out of the picture, and facing pigeon geriatric Federer, battle-worn Rafa (who had won 9 slams before Nole reached his peak), and generations of lost young guns, he's gotten away with it. Nole's declined mental fortitude is greater than the more-declined mental fortitudes of Fedal, and greater than the not-yet-developed mental fortitudes of the lost gens.
ScentOfDefeat
G.O.A.T.
Bit of a cope here.
I think you also underestimate the kids growing up now and seeing Djokovic as the world #1 for years and the best player of the past decade (look at the kid he gave the racquet to at the end of the match).
The same way many people grew up with Federer and Nadal, many others will now grow up witnessing Djokovic's historical achievements - and the same attachment people now have for Federer and Nadal, which makes it impossible for them to conceive of another GOAT, is what many of these kids will now feel as they watch Djokovic breaking one record after the other. I know it seems unbelievable, but that's just because you're seeing tennis from your perspective.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
I would agree but for the fact that nobody can have a truly timeless game when poly changed it so much as to make all court/serve-volley redundant. You have to separate tennis into before and after 2001. And the kids who never saw the 90s are always going to regard pre-2001 tennis as lame just because they don't see two guys hitting red hot screamers from the baseline (not that Sampras couldn't hit screaming forehand winners once in a while).
Neuroplasticity - Wikipedia
Human mind is what creates itself, what defines itself to it's superior version THROUGH issues it faces to raise itself to a next level. THAT is the agency and free will only a human mind has.
Kids are those who believe that identity a person is born in by genetic lottery called DNA substitutes for it. And by doing so - they start slow but continuous mental decline at 16 which lasts till death. Child is not an age, child is a mental age. Free will for kids is decision to get drunk or smoke a crack pipe.
Now, it is simplification simple minds invented for themselves that your old self/former version of mind disappears. It never goes away and a mind has to be in focus, always aware to prevent it from taking over the commands for too long. Like when he comes to a court like a different person.
This ever self developing mind is the reason why at times it seems like an adult is defeating a child when Djokovic prevails when it is 'impossible' to prevail. It is indeed impossible for a child like mind to do what an adult mind can and child like mind cannot understand simplest of facts that age cannot turn a child into an adult. Hormones take your mind to 16. Than your mind takes over to go beyond what DNA gave you. Clearly, it does only the mind which knows it has a duty to perform - to qualify itself to be called a human mind.
Our species knows that for thousands of years, before any knowledge we call science emerged. Primitive tribes have rituals of manhood for that very purpose. A boy has to deserve to be regarded as a man by other man. It does not get any simpler.
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