So basically, have we all admitted to ourselves Novak is > Fedal?

Dolgopolov85 said:
I would agree but for the fact that nobody can have a truly timeless game when poly changed it so much as to make all court/serve-volley redundant. You have to separate tennis into before and after 2001. And the kids who never saw the 90s are always going to regard pre-2001 tennis as lame just because they don't see two guys hitting red hot screamers from the baseline (not that Sampras couldn't hit screaming forehand winners once in a while).
Click to expand...
Very true sadly, although Sampras screamed forehand winners pretty regularly lol. That thing was an absolute club.
 
fundrazer said:
Inflation era is just something folks came up with in regards how we have three guys basically exceeding what most people thought was possible in the sport. Many people think the reason they've been able to "inflate" their stats is the fact that unlike any other era in tennis, they weren't forced to retire due to a younger generation. We've actually had two or three generations of players go by now, and nobody has really stepped up.

If you were following professional tennis in 2015 or so it was kind of evident that it was starting to happen. Stan stepped up around that time, but no younger player was able to win a slam. At the moment we have one slam champion under 30 years old (Thiem).
Click to expand...

Ah, thanks for the explanation.

Does that mean theres an inflation era in football since Brady has won 7 super bowls? Longevity helps but you still need to have the talent and ability to win.
 
Baseline_Bungle said:
Premise: I'm a Federer fan, albeit not the fanatical kind that lets himself be blinded by allegiance. The reality is, no other player has achieved the kind of transcendental status and quasi-divine aura that Roger reached at the height of his success, with the possible exception of Borg in his lustrum or so of dominance. Equally undisputable is the fact that no other player has so fully embodied the quintessence and the beauty of the game.
Click to expand...

Federer's popularity soared after Nadal started beating him on faster courts. Up until then, he and him winning everything was the ultimate tennis bore of the day. Not even his style did much to revert that. He came across as arrogant/smug, too. He needed Nadal as his perfect opposite gaining the upper hand for the media to build and spread this myth which coincided with invasion of the first-time tennis fans to whom Federer embodies everything that's great about the game. You sound very much like one of them.

Fed learned that never turning down an interview means the media is on your side. What he hasn't had to learn so far is, once the media find your myth stopped selling as they have built you up enough, they'll tear you down. He will though. They all do in the end.

And that's when most of his "fans" will go "psht".
 
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myth said:
Novak's last couple of months killed Nadal.

His AO 21 FO 21 and number of weeks at no1 just put Nadal out of the Goat debate.
Click to expand...
Gee what's up with all the kneejerk reactions.

As far-fetched as this may seem today, if* Novak fails to win 20 and Nadal beats him in AO 2021, the same people will be saying the opposite

Even if Djokovic really IS the avatar of an Egyptian god of darkness (which would explain how he gets better as the sun goes down**), he surely isn't immune to aging

* Doesn't exist
** Plus that whole pyramid thing
 
Sunny014 said:
He will need 24-25 slams to cross Federer for me.
Click to expand...
Guys, how do you expect from anybody to get this kind of arguments anyhow serious? What does it mean "for me, he needs 4-5 more"?

This is not discussion about what kind of music you like to listen - measuring results in sport, like tennis, is really straight forward. Novak has the most weeks at no1, years at no1, big trophies, the best season, Nole Slam (maybe CYGS this year), double career grand slam, double career masters 1000, better h2h... He has one less (one, not 10, 1!) GS, which he will probably catch, soon.

When he surpasses his rivals with GS, that's it. There is no single element in the game where he is down at that moment.

At that point, he is undisputed GOAT. And nobody cares what kind of music you like to listen.
 
aldeayeah said:
Gee what's up with all the kneejerk reactions.

As far-fetched as this may seem today, if* Novak fails to win 20 and Nadal beats him in AO 2021, the same people will be saying the opposite

Even if Djokovic really IS the avatar of an Egyptian god of darkness (which would explain how he gets better as the sun goes down**), he surely isn't immune to aging

* Doesn't exist
** Plus that whole pyramid thing
Click to expand...

That wouldn't change much.
Still 0 WTF less consistency less weeks as number 1.
 
TopspintheTerrible said:
LeBron can win 10 rings & you’ll still never convince anybody he’s better than Jordan. And maybe he would be but honestly nobody would give a sh*t either. Same goes for Djokovic.
Click to expand...
Completely wrong comparison. In tennis, unlike basketball, H2H results during a reasonable time period, offer a very simple conclusion about who is better...

TopspintheTerrible said:
Outside of Serbia & apart from his club level pusher fans, nobody cares. In 10 years people will still be talking about 2008 Wimby, 2017 AusOpen & Nadal’s 13 RG titles. And Djokovic will be remembered as a consistent player who got really angry often & hit a line judge.
Click to expand...
From all the BIG MEASURABLE facts, you managed to find the unmeasurable attribute "consistent player".
 
Patogen said:
Federer's popularity soared after Nadal started beating him on faster courts. Up until then, he and him winning everything was the ultimate tennis bore of the day. Not even his style did much to revert that. He came across as arrogant/smug, too. He needed Nadal as his perfect opposite gaining the upper hand for the media to build and spread this myth which coincided with invasion of the first-time tennis fans to whom Federer embodies everything that's great about the game. You sound very much like one of them.

Fed learned that never turning down an interview means the media is on your side. What he hasn't had to learn so far is, once the media find your myth stopped selling as they have built you up enough, they'll tear you down. He will though. They all do in the end.

And that's when most of his "fans" will go "psht".
Click to expand...
This.
 
The fact that he won 4 slams in a row, won each slam 2 times and never lost a SF/F match against Fed and Nadal at AO while beating them at the highest stage of their respective pet slams makes him the GOAT indisputably. On top of that he also has the most weeks at no 1.

I mean I would understand people arguing against it if he had only 15-17 slams but he is only one behind. He will at least win another one sooner or later and he does not actually need to at this point. There is not anything to discuss really...
 
fundrazer said:
Inflation era is just something folks came up with in regards how we have three guys basically exceeding what most people thought was possible in the sport. Many people think the reason they've been able to "inflate" their stats is the fact that unlike any other era in tennis, they weren't forced to retire due to a younger generation. We've actually had two or three generations of players go by now, and nobody has really stepped up.
Click to expand...

No, the inflation era refers to the fact that there was an inflection point around 2014-15 where the younger players coming weren’t even good enough to be the declining 3rd tier players of the previous generation, let alone the top guys. And the fact that between 2013-15 all of Federer, Murray, and Nadal faced very significant injury related declines leaving only one high level ATG active. This situation hasn’t improved, except that many of said 3rd tier players retired and the big 4+Stan faded further making NextGen look slightly less useless than Gen useless.

Remember that Djokovic had McEnroe tier slam count going into his 28 year old season, and collected more than half his slams between 28-34.

However, as history gets further out from these occasions, context will be lost and resume will be left. Regardless of circumstances, Djokovic will be able to lay claim to every major record and say that he stopped his two main rivals on their home turf in the waning days of these rivalries en route to breaking those records. Inflation or not, no other player would have won these tournaments against Fedal and he deserves credit for those achievements.
 
The biggest credit in Djokovic’s career is that he’s taken such amazing care of his health since 2011 that he’s been healthy enough to take advantage of the field where all his main rivals and contemporaries have fallen off hard. Training hard and effectively and eating well to stay healthy is a big part of a pro athlete’s job, you can’t penalize him for staying healthy and fitter than the young guys where his contemporaries didn’t. Former iron man Nadal looked about as fit as Nalbandian out there this year
 
RelentlessAttack said:
The biggest credit in Djokovic’s career is that he’s taken such amazing care of his health since 2011 that he’s been healthy enough to take advantage of the field where all his main rivals and contemporaries have fallen off hard. Training hard and effectively and eating well to stay healthy is a big part of a pro athlete’s job, you can’t penalize him for staying healthy and fitter than the young guys where his contemporaries didn’t. Former iron man Nadal looked about as fit as Nalbandian out there this year
Click to expand...
I mean, the biggest credit in Federer's career is he showed up time and again from 04-07 to collect trophies and paychecks against a generation of unmotivated mugs content with being runners up to him. Credit to to him, but lets not pretend otherwise just because someone else showed up and did the same thing ten years later. And remember, at least Nole dealt with a very high level Fed from '11-'15 when he was gobbing up slams as well as Nadal smacl dab in his prime. Who did Fed deal with? Clay specialist Nadal on grass and Roddick? ROFLMAO!!!
 
aorgwimbus said:
The fact that he won 4 slams in a row, won each slam 2 times and never lost a SF/F match against Fed and Nadal at AO while beating them at the highest stage of their respective pet slams makes him the GOAT indisputably. On top of that he also has the most weeks at no 1.

I mean I would understand people arguing against it if he had only 15-17 slams but he is only one behind. He will at least win another one sooner or later and he does not actually need to at this point. There is not anything to discuss really...
Click to expand...
Yeah, even if he doesn't close the 1 slam gap with Fedal, the straight slam plus DCGS does make him a greater player. But good luck getting the minions to agree.
 
GhostofPetros said:
I mean, the biggest credit in Federer's career is he showed up time and again from 04-07 to collect trophies and paychecks against a generation of unmotivated mugs content with being runners up to him. Credit to to him, but lets not pretend otherwise just because someone else showed up and did the same thing ten years later. And remember, at least Nole dealt with a very high level Fed from '11-'15 when he was gobbing up slams as well as Nadal smacl dab in his prime. Who did Fed deal with? Clay specialist Nadal on grass and Roddick? ROFLMAO!!!
Click to expand...

I’m not sure why people take it as an insult when I commend Djokovic on his commitment to health and fitness. We all have something to learn from his example
 
myth said:
That wouldn't change much.
Still 0 WTF less consistency less weeks as number 1.
Click to expand...
o
aorgwimbus said:
The fact that he won 4 slams in a row, won each slam 2 times and never lost a SF/F match against Fed and Nadal at AO while beating them at the highest stage of their respective pet slams makes him the GOAT indisputably. On top of that he also has the most weeks at no 1.

I mean I would understand people arguing against it if he had only 15-17 slams but he is only one behind. He will at least win another one sooner or later and he does not actually need to at this point. There is not anything to discuss really...
Click to expand...

I think it can still be discussed between Fed and Novak.

Novak has probably got better numbers but has never dominated the game the way Fed did...

I like both so there's no concern from my point of view.

Nadal is probably out of the question. Most weeks as number 2 no WTF King of clay.
 
Nadal is the clay GOAT. But clay is only one of the four slams and never the year end championship. If there were 3 slams on clay Rafa would have over 40 slams. Ridiculous? 3 slams used to be on grass.

How about Rafa is the clay GOAT.
Joker is the hardcourt GOAT.
Federer is the grass GOAT
 
diggler said:
Nadal is the clay GOAT. But clay is only one of the four slams and never the year end championship. If there were 3 slams on clay Rafa would have over 40 slams. Ridiculous? 3 slams used to be on grass.

How about Rafa is the clay GOAT.
Joker is the hardcourt GOAT.
Federer is the grass GOAT
Click to expand...
I suppose if you want to go by slam accomplishments you would modify it so Nole is Plexicushion GOAT and Pete is hardcourt GOAT (ties for most USOs but has most finals as well)
 
Dolgopolov85 said:
It's the other way round - Fed doesn't have a single season that compares to Djokovic's 2011.
Click to expand...
2006 (maybe even 2004 but that’s a bit of a reach) compares for sure. Bonus points include winning the Masters Cup while Djokovic lost in the RR in 2011. Win percentage was higher too. I don’t mind saying Djokovic’s 2011 season is better, but surely 2006 at least compares to that?
 
myth said:
o


I think it can still be discussed between Fed and Novak.

Novak has probably got better numbers but has never dominated the game the way Fed did...

I like both so there's no concern from my point of view.

Nadal is probably out of the question. Most weeks as number 2 no WTF King of clay.
Click to expand...

I think the discussion will definitely be between Fed and Nole, with Rafa certainly coming in third place. Admittedly, I have been a diehard Fed fan for the past 18+ years. However, I can't turn a blind eye to what Djokovic has done. Most weeks at #1, won the career grand slam twice, won every master series event, head-to-head winning record against Fed and Rafa, 19 slams (and counting), only man to beat Rafa twice at the French, beaten Fed in 3 Wimby finals, and won a Davis Cup for Serbia. The only statistical category that he seems to be trailing in is number of overall titles. It also looks like Novak will end the year ranked #1 again for the seventh time. With all of that being said, I still can't say he or Fed is the G.O.A.T. just yet, even though it appears highly likely that Novak may end his career with that moniker. I think we all need to wait until all three guys hang up the racquets before we can crown one of them as the G.O.A.T.
 
diggler said:
McEnroe 1984 was 82-3
Connors in 1974 was 94-3
Federer 2006 was 92-5

bleacherreport.com

Ranking the 10 Most Dominant Seasons in Tennis History

Novak Djokovic had an outstanding year in 2011, winning three of the four Grand Slam events, but was it among the most dominant seasons in tennis history? Was that more dominant ...
bleacherreport.com bleacherreport.com
Click to expand...
I didn't bring Connors/McEnroe. As for Fed 2006, just check the seeds he beat in the slams and compare to Djokovic.
 
I go with most accomplished/successful player for Djokovic.
The real reason I just cannot have too much interest for Djokos Tennis is a simple reason:
go on Youtube and type Djokovic best shots ever (or something like that)
And then search the same keywords for Nadal and Federer. What is more entertaining to watch?
Let's be honest, Djokovics game is safe, constant, he is the best returner, defender.... but he is not entertaining as much as Fed/Nadal is. He would rather die than risking too much and not wining a big tournament. And I understand this totally, but as a fan the factor entertainment is my nr 1 priority
 
diggler said:
Nadal is the clay GOAT. But clay is only one of the four slams and never the year end championship. If there were 3 slams on clay Rafa would have over 40 slams. Ridiculous? 3 slams used to be on grass.

How about Rafa is the clay GOAT.
Joker is the hardcourt GOAT.
Federer is the grass GOAT
Click to expand...
If there were 3 slams on clay, there would be more competion on clay
 
Third Serve said:
2006 (maybe even 2004 but that’s a bit of a reach) compares for sure. Bonus points include winning the Masters Cup while Djokovic lost in the RR in 2011. Win percentage was higher too. I don’t mind saying Djokovic’s 2011 season is better, but surely 2006 at least compares to that?
Click to expand...
I would rather compare 2004 actually. He was at least beating top 5 seeds at every slam. 2006 is more comparable to Nadal 2010. 3 slams sure but weak competition. I will concede that 2004 and 2006 can at least be compared to 2011 Djokovic but my comment was a retort to the poster claiming Djokovic has never been as dominant as Fed. That's ridiculous. Guy had two 3 slam seasons, may add a third this year and won four in a row so what's this dominance shibboleth all about?
 
weakera said:
Lol. We'll have to wait and see how that plays out. You have a point in the sense that Serena was crowned GOAT ages ago despite not owning the most important records.
Click to expand...
True, yet the same time Serena half-assed it a lot doing 'other things' over the course of her career and still was able to chalk up W's.

Forget the numbers, what if:

Serena brings her best A-game vs. anyone else's (steffi/steffi/steffi) best A-game with your life on the line (for drama's sake lol), ask yourself who would win, i.e. who's 'best' is the best.
 
Dedans Penthouse said:
At the same time Serena half-assed it a lot in her career and still was able to chalk up W's. Forget the numbers, Serena brings her best A-game vs. anyone else's (steffi/steffi/steffi) best A-game with your life on the line (for drama's sake lol), ask yourself who would win, i.e. who's 'best' is the best.
Click to expand...
On TT, esp Former Players section, Graf will take it just cause legs.
 
Dolgopolov85 said:
I would rather compare 2004 actually. He was at least beating top 5 seeds at every slam. 2006 is more comparable to Nadal 2010. 3 slams sure but weak competition. I will concede that 2004 and 2006 can at least be compared to 2011 Djokovic but my comment was a retort to the poster claiming Djokovic has never been as dominant as Fed. That's ridiculous. Guy had two 3 slam seasons, may add a third this year and won four in a row so what's this dominance shibboleth all about?
Click to expand...
I think the guy meant that Fed was able to string together four insanely dominant years. 2004, 2005, 2006, and 2007 are certainly among the most dominant seasons of all time and Fed was able to sustain his peak level for four straight years. While Djokovic has individual great seasons in 2011 and 2015, he also had 2012-2014 in between them when he wasn’t quite as good. At least I think that’s what he meant.
 
Djokovic will end up with the most slams, most weeks, best h2h vs. his main rivals, most year end no. 1's, most Masters etc. All in all, he will be eventually be the consensus pick for greatest of all time.
That said, no one has made me marvel as much watching tennis as Federer has. And for that reason, he'll remain my no. 1.

Funny aside: Tennis is truly a game of inches. Just imagine the following:
  • Djokovic' US Open return in 2011 goes out
  • Rafa doesn't miss the sitter backhand at AO 2012
  • Federer's serve in W 19 down the T doesn't clip the tape, but is an ace
  • And many more extremely close matches and situations that possibly the clutchest player of all time somehow survived and we wouldn't be having this discussion
Congrats on your guy again, take it in, go celebrate. He's been chasing for a looooooong time and now, he's caught up.
I'll be off for now.
 
Third Serve said:
I think the guy meant that Fed was able to string together four insanely dominant years. 2004, 2005, 2006, and 2007 are certainly among the most dominant seasons of all time and Fed was able to sustain his peak level for four straight years. While Djokovic has individual great seasons in 2011 and 2015, he also had 2012-2014 in between them when he wasn’t quite as good. At least I think that’s what he meant.
Click to expand...
But Djokovic has also had more periods overall where he was dominant. After those two years, he had 2018 and 2019 and this is a third dominant year. So it doesn't matter either way and I would say that the fact that Djokovic can find a second wave of dominance (like Serena from 2012 to 2015) is in some ways more impressive than Fed's single block of 04-07.
 
Dolgopolov85 said:
On TT, esp Former Players section, Graf will take it just cause legs.
Click to expand...
If pins were sin, Steffi'd be the devil.

247px-Steffi_Graf_and_Kim_Clijsters_%28cropped%29.jpg


Imho however, Serena's serve, her not-so-sloppy footwork (in her prime), and her competitive juices give her the nod..again, imho.

288px-Serena_Wimbledon_2008.jpg

Serena_Williams_%28July_2008%29.jpg
 
Dolgopolov85 said:
Just that serve. Such a thing of beauty. What a pity some people are so badly stuck in the past they will never bring themselves to acknowledge the Serena serve.
Click to expand...
Yup. Her release represented exquisite timing and athleticism - a thing of beauty you so adroitly described it as. Steffi's too-high toss was testament to her own athleticism and timing but it was not optimal, esp. in windy conditions (n.b. her double fault in crunch time vs. Seles at the US Open).

BUT...we're kinda hijacking this thread, no? ;)
 
Dedans Penthouse said:
True, yet the same time Serena half-assed it a lot doing 'other things' over the course of her career and still was able to chalk up W's.

Forget the numbers, what if:

Serena brings her best A-game vs. anyone else's (steffi/steffi/steffi) best A-game with your life on the line (for drama's sake lol), ask yourself who would win, i.e. who's 'best' is the best.
Click to expand...

If that's the question that GOAT comes down to, Djokovic only hits on 1/4 slams at most lol
 
Dolgopolov85 said:
But Djokovic has also had more periods overall where he was dominant. After those two years, he had 2018 and 2019 and this is a third dominant year. So it doesn't matter either way and I would say that the fact that Djokovic can find a second wave of dominance (like Serena from 2012 to 2015) is in some ways more impressive than Fed's single block of 04-07.
Click to expand...
I agree - at least partly. But it's also to do with the sad state of men's tennis that there's just 1 slam won from a guy born in 1989 or later.
 
weakera said:
If that's the question that GOAT comes down to, Djokovic only hits on 1/4 slams at most lol
Click to expand...
Why the "lol" ??

To suggest that Djoko's body of work is 'just-a-shell' of fed/rafa is no longer the case. Further, he ain't near done and that appears to be bugging some folks who view tennis not as much the overall great sport it is (with the great rivalries that contribute to its greatness) but more along the lines of.......wait for it ; ) ........ "my favourite male tennis idol is better than your favourite male tennis idol!"

320px-Courgette.jpg
320px-Bended_cucumber.jpg
 
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Dolgopolov85 said:
But Djokovic has also had more periods overall where he was dominant. After those two years, he had 2018 and 2019 and this is a third dominant year. So it doesn't matter either way and I would say that the fact that Djokovic can find a second wave of dominance (like Serena from 2012 to 2015) is in some ways more impressive than Fed's single block of 04-07.
Click to expand...
2019 wasn’t a dominant year. If you recall, Nadal ended up as the YE-#1, so it’s at least even. 2018 (or, well, the second half) probably was, and it’s impressive that he was able to string together such results at age 30-31. I’d set his dominant stretch as Wimbledon 2018 to AO 2019. He was hardly dominant after that until this year, but I don’t rate 2021 Djokovic all that highly, even compared to 2018-2019.
 
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