So basically, have we all admitted to ourselves Novak is > Fedal?

[GhostofPetros]

Tsitsipas is the GOAT.

Baghdatis is

 

[hoodjem]

Baghdatis is

Now we're talking!

 

[GhostofPetros]

You can't really argue much against Djoker now that he has the Double Career Slam and Weeks #1 Record. He doesn't even need 21 slams being that Nadal/Fed never won the Double

Very true, and while there isn't a chance in hell Fed gets it, Rafa could always win the AO if the draw opens up, so I don't think Nole wants to rest his claim on DCGS

 

[supermullet]

40 > 19.

 

[Grgisme]

LeBron can win 10 rings & you’ll still never convince anybody he’s better than Jordan. And maybe he would be but honestly nobody would give a sh*t either. Same goes for Djokovic. Outside of Serbia & apart from his club level pusher fans, nobody cares. In 10 years people will still be talking about 2008 Wimby, 2017 AusOpen & Nadal’s 13 RG titles. And Djokovic will be remembered as a consistent player who got really angry often & hit a line judge.

Congrats on 19 though

 

[Holmes]

Visitor from the future. The answer is, even now with 4 more slams we still are not united in this belief.

 

[fedfan24]

Based on watching them play, still Fedal as top 2 for me depending on surface and Djokovic in 3rd.

 

[Holmes]

I think Double career slam, Nole slam, most weeks at #1, tied for most year end #1s, double golden masters, winning head to head over fellow GOAT contenders is worth more than being one slam ahead and having the most consecutive semi-final appearances in slams tbh

*and 4 more slams

 

[Kralingen]

The decline in discussion quality from just 3 years ago to now is appalling.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Yes and there is a reason. Why should we fight over same topics again and again. Let's all call Nole the goat and move on. Instead the members including yourself have rarely given credits to Nole and moved on.

 

[HeIsTreeing]

 

[RelentlessAttack]

The decline in discussion quality from just 3 years ago to now is appalling.

I don’t think this is limited to TTW. Forums are unfortunately a dying medium though I greatly prefer them to mass social media

 

[Neptune]

Coping is indeed a lengthy process after all.

 

[Holmes]

The decline in discussion quality from just 3 years ago to now is appalling.

Indeed. I wish I could have been there to experience it.

 

[Jonesy]

Coping is indeed a lengthy process after all.

Indeed, some just are slower than others.

 

[TheSlicer]

Margaret court is better

 

[Holmes]

Bingo. He does have AO 17 which was absolutely epic, but all the hard work undone by 40-15 two years later.

RE the underlined part: the fairytale was fun while it lasted until the bubble burst. Sure, was fun watching the maestro roll over likes of Roddick, Blake, Hewitt, Kiefer, Bogdanovic etc but once proper competition emerged his tail went between his legs and he lost over and over....

You put it very harshly but not necessarily untruly.

 

[fedfan24]

Coping is indeed a lengthy process after all.

Who’s coping with what? Djokovic winning multiple Ruud and Berretini opens doesn’t change Federer or Nadal’s career.

 

[TMF]

Based on watching them play, still Fedal as top 2 for me depending on surface and Djokovic in 3rd.

Picture paints thousand words, watching the game paint a billion words.

Tennis fans watch tennis to understand every details about their skills, ability and have in depth of knowledge about tennis.
Ultronians only look at the score board and know nothing about the quality of the match.
Go figure

 

[BauerAlmeida]

20-20-19. Still third wheel. All to play for.
No point saying who GOAT is now. We have to see what happens. Agree?

Lol no. Whoever ends up with most slams is GOAT

Visitor from the future.

Now the goalposts have shifted.

 

[BauerAlmeida]

Who’s coping with what? Djokovic winning multiple Ruud and Berretini opens doesn’t change Federer or Nadal’s career.

Federer winning Baghdatis and Bjorkman opens and Nadal winning Puerta and Anderson opens don't change Djokovic's career.

 

[Phoenix*]

Picture paints thousand words, watching the game paint a billion words.

Tennis fans watch tennis to understand every details about their skills, ability and have in depth of knowledge about tennis.
Ultronians only look at the score board and know nothing about the quality of the match.
Go figure

Are we watching tennis or rhythmic gymnastics?

 

[BauerAlmeida]

Ultronians only look at the score board and know nothing about the quality of the match.

Not only "ultronians", tennis players care about the scoreboard above all else as well.

 

[Holmes]

Picture paints thousand words, watching the game paint a billion words.

Tennis fans watch tennis to understand every details about their skills, ability and have in depth of knowledge about tennis.
Ultronians only look at the score board and know nothing about the quality of the match.
Go figure

Perhaps Ultronians watch tennis and come to the correct conclusion, whilst you watch tennis and come to the pretty one.

 

[fedfan24]

Federer winning Baghdatis and Bjorkman opens and Nadal winning Puerta and Anderson opens don't change Djokovic's career.

Bjorkman… preceded by Ancic and followed by Nadal in the final.

AO 06 was on the weaker side but he defeated 3 ok opponents, Davydenko, Haas, Baghdatis, about same level as 2015 AO for example. Norrie / Krygios , Shapovalov/Berretini, Tommy Paul / Tsitsipas, Shelton / Medvedev are actual SF / F combos since 2021

 

[TMF]

Are we watching tennis or rhythmic gymnastics?

Many Djoker fans only start watching tennis in 2011. Young Djoker fans don't have the depth and knowledge as the Federer and Nadal fan base

 

[TMF]

Perhaps Ultronians watch tennis and come to the correct conclusion, whilst you watch tennis and come to the pretty one.

LOL
That's a good one Herald

 

[TMF]

Not only "ultronians", tennis players care about the scoreboard above all else as well.

So Roddick is a better player than Nole.

Scoreboard say so. Thank you

 

[Kralingen]

Picture paints thousand words, watching the game paint a billion words.

Tennis fans watch tennis to understand every details about their skills, ability and have in depth of knowledge about tennis.
Ultronians only look at the score board and know nothing about the quality of the match.
Go figure

where did your Kobe avatar go?

 

[Phoenix*]

So Roddick is a better player than Nole.

Scoreboard say so. Thank you

Now apply it to Federer vs Djo.

 

[TMF]

where did your Kobe avatar go?

Avatar comes and go. Not everyone stick to one forever

 

[BauerAlmeida]

Bjorkman… preceded by Ancic and followed by Nadal in the final.

Ancic would be ridiculed if he was a rival Djokovic rival. He achieved less than many of the so-called Djokovic rivals.

AO 06 was on the weaker side but he defeated 3 ok opponents, Davydenko, Haas, Baghdatis, about same level as 2015 AO for example.

Lol, yes. Raonic, Wawrinka and Murray is the same.

Norrie / Krygios , Shapovalov/Berretini, Tommy Paul / Tsitsipas, Shelton / Medvedev are actual SF / F combos since 2021

Medvedev had just beaten Alcaraz and had a terrific HC year, nothing wrong about that one. You can delete the other 3 if you want and he is still ahead of Federer by one slam.

 

[BauerAlmeida]

So Roddick is a better player than Nole.

Scoreboard say so. Thank you

Yeah, the scoreboard says that. You got me.

 

[TMF]

Now apply it to Federer vs Djo.

Djokovic met Federer most of the time when he was well past his prime. Of course the former has the age advantage.

If Djoker fans want to ignore context about the H2H, then
Djokovic > Federer > Roddick > Djokovic

 

[Phoenix*]

Djokovic met Federer most of the time when he was well past his prime. Of course the former has the age advantage.

If Djoker fans want to ignore context about the H2H, then
Djokovic > Federer > Roddick > Djokovic

All that matters.

 

[TMF]

All that matters.

I'm not saying this is my opinion, but just point out your logical fallacies

 

[GabeT]

This debate is over. Let’s find something else to discuss

 

[fedfan24]

Ancic would be ridiculed if he was a rival Djokovic rival. He achieved less than many of the so-called Djokovic rivals.




Lol, yes. Raonic, Wawrinka and Murray is the same.




Medvedev had just beaten Alcaraz and had a terrific HC year, nothing wrong about that one. You can delete the other 3 if you want and he is still ahead of Federer by one slam.

Nothing wrong with Medvedev crapping the bed, but Bagdhatis who played 2 good sets
gets laughed at.

Yes they are about the same. Stan bombed in the 5th set. No better than Haas or Davydenko. Murray played well for 2 sets, about the same as Bagdhatis.

 

[Third Serve]

Nothing wrong with Medvedev crapping the bed, but Bagdhatis who played 2 good sets
gets laughed at.

Yes they are about the same. Stan bombed in the 5th set. No better than Haas or Davydenko. Murray played well for 2 sets, about the same as Bagdhatis.

At this point it’s basically just calling opponents weak if they can’t pronounce their names. Hence, Greek era.

 

[BauerAlmeida]

Nothing wrong with Medvedev crapping the bed, but Bagdhatis who played 2 good sets
gets laughed at.

Yes they are about the same. Stan bombed in the 5th set. No better than Haas or Davydenko. Murray played well for 2 sets, about the same as Bagdhatis.

It's funny how you move the goalposts lol. First it's about the names, then it's about how many sets they played well.

Shapovalov played well all sets, so he is better than top guys Federer faced when they didn't play good in any sets? Like Roddick AO 2007 or Hewitt playing only well in one set in 2004.
Djere played great two sets, does it make him a strong rival?

Wawrinka played a great match, it's not easy to take Djokovic to 5 at the AO. Haas and Davydenko very likely wouldn't have done so.

 

[fedfan24]

It's funny how you move the goalposts lol. First it's about the names, then it's about how many sets they played well.

Shapovalov played well all sets, so he is better than top guys Federer faced when they didn't play good in any sets? Like Roddick AO 2007 or Hewitt playing only well in one set in 2004.
Djere played great two sets, does it make him a strong rival?

Wawrinka played a great match, it's not easy to take Djokovic to 5 at the AO. Haas and Davydenko very likely wouldn't have done so.

That’s the point. All those guys I named played pretty crap mostly. Shapovalov played some good points but awful sets and tons and tons of choking. He’s the poster boy for how bad the nextgen have been outside of perhaps 2-3 matches. They’re not losing to some insurmountable amazing peak play.

OTOH Wawrinka probably loses to Fed in 3/4.

 

[Jonesy]

It is better to just accept there are two types of Goats, one objective Goat that basically has the records at a present time and a subjective Goat for each person to use their own criteria.

The objective Goat is not forced on anyone, but denying the existence of the records should be seem as lunacy.

 

[mental midget]

the results are the results, so there novak gets the nod. GOAT trophy case, end of story.

federer's peak game is still the best i've ever seen though. there are plenty of guys you could isolate a match, or a couple tournaments, and talk about how ridiculously good they looked. but fed won 20 GS (within a couple points of several more) playing high-risk, highlight-reel, attacking tennis...in an age where the courts slowed down and baseline grinding became the norm, that is, while not a quantifiable feat, a significant one.

 

[fedfan24]

the results are the results, so there novak gets the nod. GOAT trophy case, end of story.

federer's peak game is still the best i've ever seen though. there are plenty of guys you could isolate a match, or a couple tournaments, and talk about how ridiculously good they looked. but fed won 20 GS (within a couple points of several more) playing high-risk, highlight-reel, attacking tennis...in an age where the courts slowed down and baseline grinding became the norm, that is, while not a quantifiable feat, a significant one.

Absolutely. Agree with all of this. Just wish fed had taken 2019 W before the hyper inflation began, would’ve been an awesome feather in the cap.

 

[nolefam_2024]

the results are the results, so there novak gets the nod. GOAT trophy case, end of story.

federer's peak game is still the best i've ever seen though. there are plenty of guys you could isolate a match, or a couple tournaments, and talk about how ridiculously good they looked. but fed won 20 GS (within a couple points of several more) playing high-risk, highlight-reel, attacking tennis...in an age where the courts slowed down and baseline grinding became the norm, that is, while not a quantifiable feat, a significant one.

the results are the results, so there novak gets the nod. GOAT trophy case, end of story.

 

[BauerAlmeida]

That’s the point. All those guys I named played pretty crap mostly.

What a "coincidence" that players drop their level significantly compared to their previous matches so often against Djokovic...

I lost count of how many different slam finals I saw said about that X player played in the final against Djokovic at a significantly lower level than the SF/before the final.

 

[FlyingSaucer]

It is better to just accept there are two types of Goats, one objective Goat that basically has the records at a present time and a subjective Goat for each person to use their own criteria.

The objective Goat is not forced on anyone, but denying the existence of the records should be seem as lunacy.

People regarding the notion of GOAT as subjective are not denying the existence of records, are they? They are saying records are records but 'GOATness' is a more holistic concept, I suppose.

More and more Djo fans (though not here, from what I've seen) are calling Djo the greatest athlete in all of sporting history. Nary a measurement in sight that can be applied across different sports and across multiple eras. So, what is the basis for the argument other than pure emotion? Plenty of Djokovic fans are well-acquainted with the idea of GOAT being something other than (or more than) quantifiable.

There is also plenty of evidence from the last decade they did not readily accept a numerical approach to 'GOATness'.

 

[King_olaf_the_hairy]

Clearly Fedal > Djokovic.

I mean, if you are a numbers junkie then Djokovic > Federer OR Nadal. But 'Fedal' is Federer AND Nadal.

42 > 24. (slams)
519 > 412. (weeks at #1)
10 > 8. (YE #1)
64 > 40. (Masters titles)
195 > 98. (All titles)
3 > 0. (OGMs)
4 > 0. (CYGSs)

The only major records I can think of in Novak's favour would be the combined H2H (57-52) and the "Masters career slam" where Roger and Rafa only have one between them.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Clearly Fedal > Djokovic.

I mean, if you are a numbers junkie then Djokovic > Federer OR Nadal. But 'Fedal' is Federer AND Nadal.

42 > 24. (slams)
519 > 412. (weeks at #1)
10 > 8. (YE #1)
64 > 40. (Masters titles)
195 > 98. (All titles)
3 > 0. (OGMs)
4 > 0. (CYGSs)

The only major records I can think of in Novak's favour would be the combined H2H (57-52) and the "Masters career slam" where Roger and Rafa only have one between them.

ATP finals
Djokovic 7 fedal 6

Don't forget.

Djokovic is better than both individually

 

[Djokovic_is_the_best#1]

Novak won the big 3 war in the end! Now it’s time for Sinner-Alcaraz era and see who else will challenge. Let’s move on.