So Cal 4.0 Sectionals DQ's

The 4.0 team that represented Orange County swept sectionals and are headed to nationals. No surprise since OC has always been tough to beat and their captains know how to work the system.

Anyways, 2 of their players were DQ'ed. Apparently, the DQ's came off of 3 strikes (both players were self rated and their captain wisely only used them twice during the regular season). Since the DQ's came off strikes, the matches still count and the team still gets to go on to nationals (without their DQ'ed stars).

It is a shame that the matches still count and that the second place team doesn't get to advance to nationals even though they deserve it more.

It is nice that action was taken to DQ them, but the USTA should look into more penalties for teams abusing the self rates and hiding players just for the postseason.

Thoughts?
 

schmke

Legend
I agree.

Sections are given the choice of:
  • checking strikes/DQs after each match played in playoffs and reversing all matches played and the player being ineligible at the DQ'd level going forward
  • or only checking at the conclusion of the event and letting matches stand
SoCal elects to do the latter (and a number of other sections do too including Southern) while others elect the former (my section, PNW is one).

I think the reason sections elect to do the latter is to let teams play as constructed through the event so a player doesn't play just one match and then is DQ'd and traveled to the event and now can't play, or it could result in a team having to default courts if the DQ(s) shrink their roster.

But my view is that if the player won't be allowed to continue on with the team, they shouldn't be able to continue helping their team advance from the current event at the expense of another team that could be the better team with the DQ'd players omitted. Doing the latter isn't fair to the competition having to play an out of level player nor does it result in the best eligible team advancing on.
 

BravoRed691

Semi-Pro
This wasn't the way it used to be. If my memory serves me right, this was a change implemented about 2 years ago. The match results use to be reversed.

Both methods can be taken advantaged of but many of us here in So-Cal would prefer if it was back the other way around.

OC has always been a powerhouse in SoCal.

It feels like they come into the postseason as the fav each season.

Br.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
I agree.

Sections are given the choice of:
  • checking strikes/DQs after each match played in playoffs and reversing all matches played and the player being ineligible at the DQ'd level going forward
  • or only checking at the conclusion of the event and letting matches stand
SoCal elects to do the latter (and a number of other sections do too including Southern) while others elect the former (my section, PNW is one).

I think the reason sections elect to do the latter is to let teams play as constructed through the event so a player doesn't play just one match and then is DQ'd and traveled to the event and now can't play, or it could result in a team having to default courts if the DQ(s) shrink their roster.

But my view is that if the player won't be allowed to continue on with the team, they shouldn't be able to continue helping their team advance from the current event at the expense of another team that could be the better team with the DQ'd players omitted. Doing the latter isn't fair to the competition having to play an out of level player nor does it result in the best eligible team advancing on.
Middle State is the other way. Strike reports are run after every match and if someone strikes out during sectionals, all of their matches at sectionals are reversed.
 

WhiteOut

Semi-Pro
I agree.

Sections are given the choice of:
  • checking strikes/DQs after each match played in playoffs and reversing all matches played and the player being ineligible at the DQ'd level going forward
  • or only checking at the conclusion of the event and letting matches stand

My district checks after each match. referencing my earlier post on the subject, lost a match 3-2 against a team who had 6 self-rated players, two of whom were hidden in dubs all season, only to roll them out at 1-2 singles against us. one of them won 0-0 against our very good 1s player who never really loses, the other beat our 2s guy who also never loses.

anyway the LC running the tourney told us to sit tight, as he fully expected at least one of the two to DQ, and we would then advance to state. unfortunately after entering the scores, neither DQ'd...and they advanced to state champ last weekend.

well guess who didn't even play at state last weekend. they even defaulted a court and only played 7 players. fortunately they got beat (serves em right), but to a) game the system to eliminate us, then b) knowingly sit those guys only to not even field a full squad really stinks.

i feel like the decision makers in this situation should step in and tell these guys to cut the nonsense and just freaking play...

<and yes i'm still chafed about it>
 

MarinaHighTennis

Hall of Fame
The 4.0 team that represented Orange County swept sectionals and are headed to nationals. No surprise since OC has always been tough to beat and their captains know how to work the system.

Anyways, 2 of their players were DQ'ed. Apparently, the DQ's came off of 3 strikes (both players were self rated and their captain wisely only used them twice during the regular season). Since the DQ's came off strikes, the matches still count and the team still gets to go on to nationals (without their DQ'ed stars).

It is a shame that the matches still count and that the second place team doesn't get to advance to nationals even though they deserve it more.

It is nice that action was taken to DQ them, but the USTA should look into more penalties for teams abusing the self rates and hiding players just for the postseason.

Thoughts?

OC has been pretty bad with the sandbagging and match fixing (fudging scores, etc.). I saw a team that the other team didn't know who the other's teams players were for trilevel so the team put their computer rated 4.5 at the 3.5 line and he pretended to play down. It was disgusting and my team reported them so they're currently on "watchlist" by the SCTA (who I work with for my charity tournaments). Their 4.5 team just won districts recently too

Which team is this 4.0 team? I'm from OC and curious who they are and if its who i think they are.
 

dizzlmcwizzl

Hall of Fame
At 4.0 I was fortunate to be on teams that went to sectionals for several years in a row. Each year every other team would be populated by as many as 9 self rated players and never fewer than 4. You could make predictions about who would win the event simply based on the preponderance of self rated players.

It is a shame that an organization whose most appealing quality is the assurance that similarly skilled players will be grouped in an effort to compete for a National Championship … however year in and year out the teams that advance do so by utilizing the fact that their best players have not been completely assessed for grouping.

It boggles my imagination why the USTA does not force players to be computer rated before competing in playoffs at any level. The USTA has set up arbitrary levels of competition. And while the levels they have established seem to make sense, the USTA does not even require its players to be within the arbitrary ranges it established.

These Championships should determine who is the best team of players at 3.5 who were not good enough to be called 4.0s in December of the previous year. However, what they really determine is which captain did the best job of recruiting slightly (or not so slightly) out of level players, getting them to self rate and manage their ratings through championships.
 

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
It is amusing to me ... right now every self-rated 4.0 male player I know, particularly from mixed league, should really be a 3.5 at best.

But at 3.5 the number of self-rated males who have been DQ'ed per our LLC hit a new record this year. At end of 40+ and 18+ locally, there were more than 15 dynamic DQs at that level. She said that normally, she expects maybe 5 DQs per league level, usually only 2-3.
 
OC has been pretty bad with the sandbagging and match fixing (fudging scores, etc.). I saw a team that the other team didn't know who the other's teams players were for trilevel so the team put their computer rated 4.5 at the 3.5 line and he pretended to play down. It was disgusting and my team reported them so they're currently on "watchlist" by the SCTA (who I work with for my charity tournaments). Their 4.5 team just won districts recently too

Which team is this 4.0 team? I'm from OC and curious who they are and if its who i think they are.

Not sure if this is enough info but it was OC Lower PC. The captains' initials are F.C. and Q.C.
Same team that won the 4.0 Fall Doubles.
 

WhiteOut

Semi-Pro
These Championships should determine who is the best team of players at 3.5 who were not good enough to be called 4.0s in December of the previous year. However, what they really determine is which captain did the best job of recruiting slightly (or not so slightly) out of level players, getting them to self rate and manage their ratings through championships.

You've captured the essence of the conundrum better than I've seen. It' an interesting balance between attracting new players to come to the game, or at least to an organized, competitive form versus socials/friendly matches and club/ladder/tourney options...but a the same time governing the nonsense. There is indeed no perfect system.

I think the good news is (speaking purely from my own experience bringing people into league tennis), the majority of league players come into it with a mindset of getting a match once per week in an organized group w/o having to do any scheduling themselves, and they have no idea all this crazy advancement stuff is going on behind the scenes. They're happy to play, then they start kicking butt because, well, winning is fun, then all this other stuff starts coming out...the other good news is it only lasts a year...so once they get their comp rating they are free to just play.

maybe one solution is could be for USTA have two rec leagues: a 'blended' league of both S and C rated players, wide open, knock yourselves out, go crazy with it...and then also a C-rated/exclusive league where only C rated players may participate. People will still try to game the C-rated league with tossed games, etc to keep their ratings lower, but at least the S-Rate factor is out of it, so that's one-less BS factor, and therefore perhaps a closer representation of the rate levels...
 

JoelDali

Talk Tennis Guru
I was at districts Southern Cal matches last weekend. Took video for proof of sandbagging to send to SCTA.

Their singles guys were 5.0 players on Jolly/Maxima level. The doubles players were 4.5.

Disgraceful acts against the sport were witnessed.
 

MarinaHighTennis

Hall of Fame
Not sure if this is enough info but it was OC Lower PC. The captains' initials are F.C. and Q.C.
Same team that won the 4.0 Fall Doubles.
haha its the same team I was talking about, from their own teamplayers telling me, the motto of the 2 teams is "do whatever it takes to win".

however one of their guys is actually on my current trilevel who just got DQ. He's a HS student at 18 yrs old so I guess they took adv of his no rating/ranking (I have him bc hes a friend but its not like my team is winning anyways). He did just won CIF a few months ago.

the other guy who got DQ is a friend of mine also from Tennis on Campus however he can't hang at the 4.5 level at all. Surprisingly they both have the same name haha
 

MarinaHighTennis

Hall of Fame
I was at districts Southern Cal matches last weekend. Took video for proof of sandbagging to send to SCTA.

Their singles guys were 5.0 players on Jolly/Maxima level. The doubles players were 4.5.

Disgraceful acts against the sport were witnessed.
for 4.0 or 4.5 sectionals?

However Maximaq is playing 4.5 currently haha. Me and him took down the infamous mercenary team #1 doubles from Norcal together... but our team still lost bc it wasn't deep enough.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
These Championships should determine who is the best team of players at 3.5 who were not good enough to be called 4.0s in December of the previous year. However, what they really determine is which captain did the best job of recruiting slightly (or not so slightly) out of level players, getting them to self rate and manage their ratings through championships.
Perhaps there is a compromise that the S-rated players could get a computer rating between the end of the regular season and the start of the playoffs. There is a lot of space between a bump rating and a DQ rating. For example, a 3.5 S with a rating of 3.50 would get bumped, but it takes 3.70 to get strikes for a DQ. If after the regular season, an S-rated player has a DNTRP of 3.55, he'd get a 4.0C and not be eligible for playoffs, even though that is not high enough for a DQ. That way, only the S-rated players who are actually at level can play in the playoffs, but the ones who are don't have to wait a full year, either.
 

BravoRed691

Semi-Pro
for 4.0 or 4.5 sectionals?

However Maximaq is playing 4.5 currently haha. Me and him took down the infamous mercenary team #1 doubles from Norcal together... but our team still lost bc it wasn't deep enough.

You guys both were there? I was there as well...at Los Cab? Which team do you all play for?

Br.
 

MarinaHighTennis

Hall of Fame
You guys both were there? I was there as well...at Los Cab? Which team do you all play for?

Br.
No we played together in Norcal (SF Presidio) but I also played for a Socal team that got 2nd place bc vs the #1 team (OC LPC) since it was graduation and finals week so a few of our guys couldn't make it
 

schmke

Legend
Perhaps there is a compromise that the S-rated players could get a computer rating between the end of the regular season and the start of the playoffs. There is a lot of space between a bump rating and a DQ rating. For example, a 3.5 S with a rating of 3.50 would get bumped, but it takes 3.70 to get strikes for a DQ. If after the regular season, an S-rated player has a DNTRP of 3.55, he'd get a 4.0C and not be eligible for playoffs, even though that is not high enough for a DQ. That way, only the S-rated players who are actually at level can play in the playoffs, but the ones who are don't have to wait a full year, either.
How is this different than just lowering the strike threshold? I guess you are suggesting not having the lower threshold during the regular season, but applying it before (and during?) the post-season?

But then, if 18 & Over and 40 & Over seasons are run sequentially, would this mid-season 4.0C and bump occur after 18 & Over was done making them ineligible for 40 & Over 3.5? Or they could continue to play 40 & Over 3.5 even though they were deemed a "4.0" and ineligible for 18 & Over playoffs?
 

BravoRed691

Semi-Pro
No we played together in Norcal (SF Presidio) but I also played for a Socal team that got 2nd place bc vs the #1 team (OC LPC) since it was graduation and finals week so a few of our guys couldn't make it

If you're on the team I am thinking about, I think you guys took out one of our teams in AP. You sandbagger, lol!

Br.
 

BravoRed691

Semi-Pro
If you're on the team I am thinking about, I think you guys took out one of our teams in AP. You sandbagger, lol!

Br.

Nvm, I think I confused myself. You're a 4.5 right? Our 4.0 team did lose to a BC team with a couple of "sandbaggers" (even if they are computer rated) in AP. But they in turn did lose to the OC team in Sectionals.

Br.
 

West Coast Ace

G.O.A.T.
At 4.0 I was fortunate to be on teams that went to sectionals for several years in a row. Each year every other team would be populated by as many as 9 self rated players and never fewer than 4. You could make predictions about who would win the event simply based on the preponderance of self rated players.

It is a shame that an organization whose most appealing quality is the assurance that similarly skilled players will be grouped in an effort to compete for a National Championship … however year in and year out the teams that advance do so by utilizing the fact that their best players have not been completely assessed for grouping.

It boggles my imagination why the USTA does not force players to be computer rated before competing in playoffs at any level. The USTA has set up arbitrary levels of competition. And while the levels they have established seem to make sense, the USTA does not even require its players to be within the arbitrary ranges it established.

These Championships should determine who is the best team of players at 3.5 who were not good enough to be called 4.0s in December of the previous year. However, what they really determine is which captain did the best job of recruiting slightly (or not so slightly) out of level players, getting them to self rate and manage their ratings through championships.
Good post.

I’m sure you were joking - we all know why the USTA does it - money!
 

MarinaHighTennis

Hall of Fame
Nvm, I think I confused myself. You're a 4.5 right? Our 4.0 team did lose to a BC team with a couple of "sandbaggers" (even if they are computer rated) in AP. But they in turn did lose to the OC team in Sectionals.

Br.
yeah i play 4.5 but I know most of the ppl on that OC team and yeap its atrocious

I'm at the point where im quitting league tennis to play pop tennis bc of the drama and unsportsmanship that happens. I just wanted to play good tennis without all these strings attached from other ppl haha
 

BravoRed691

Semi-Pro
whats AP? I'm on Team Match Pace and we didn't have any sandbaggers except for a 4.5 appeal singles guy. We didn't make it to districts/sectionals
Nvm, I think I confused myself. You're a 4.5 right? Our 4.0 team did lose to a BC team with a couple of "sandbaggers" (even if they are computer rated) in AP. But they in turn did lose to the OC team in Sectionals.

Br.

AP is Area Playoffs. How did you guys get 2nd place after the OC team without playing in the post season?

Br.
 

BravoRed691

Semi-Pro

OMG, I thought bc meant Beach Cities...smh, lol. I had mistakenly thought Huntington Beach was considered Beach Cities.

Yea, the 4.5 OC team is very good. We were able to compete with their dubs, but not with their Singles. Wanna play singles with us? Haha!

Br.
 

MarinaHighTennis

Hall of Fame
OMG, I thought bc meant Beach Cities...smh, lol. I had mistakenly thought Huntington Beach was considered Beach Cities.

Yea, the 4.5 OC team is very good. We were able to compete with their dubs, but not with their Singles. Wanna play singles with us? Haha!

Br.
im down but its somewhat far so itll be intermittent playing haha. Are you playing the beach cities 18-39? I have a lot of friends playing that
 

BravoRed691

Semi-Pro
im down but its somewhat far so itll be intermittent playing haha. Are you playing the beach cities 18-39? I have a lot of friends playing that

So i think we have at least two guys we know in common actually. I wont name names but one just transferred to UCI. And the other just moved away from you to us.

I play SGV and IE.

Br.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
How is this different than just lowering the strike threshold? I guess you are suggesting not having the lower threshold during the regular season, but applying it before (and during?) the post-season?
Well, for one, no matches would ever be overturned since they didn't reach the strike threshold. Second, if you're not "promoted" at the end of the regular season, then you'd go back to the original strike threshold for strikes. Third, it's not a matter of "X number or matches" are over the rating, it's just your final DNTRP at the close of the season. It's just a way of weeding out S-rated ringers from the playoffs, which I think is what people want to see, right? I'm not sure that it's fair to tell a player who is not over level that they have to sit out a whole year of playoffs. They'll lose people doing that.

But then, if 18 & Over and 40 & Over seasons are run sequentially, would this mid-season 4.0C and bump occur after 18 & Over was done making them ineligible for 40 & Over 3.5? Or they could continue to play 40 & Over 3.5 even though they were deemed a "4.0" and ineligible for 18 & Over playoffs?
These are details that would have to be worked out.
 
Nvm, I think I confused myself. You're a 4.5 right? Our 4.0 team did lose to a BC team with a couple of "sandbaggers" (even if they are computer rated) in AP. But they in turn did lose to the OC team in Sectionals.

Br.

Yah. BC 4.0 had a monster singles player J.G.
He won a couple singles matches at 4.5 and even won a 4.5 AP singles match for the WC 4.5 LA team.
 

BravoRed691

Semi-Pro
Yah. BC 4.0 had a monster singles player J.G.
He won a couple singles matches at 4.5 and even won a 4.5 AP singles match for the WC 4.5 LA team.

Yea, we played J.G. as well. Twice. Once in the 4.0s (AP) and once in the 4.5s (AP). He "managed" some of this matches quite well, lol. Many teams were chatting about him and his play...

Br.
 

MarinaHighTennis

Hall of Fame
I know some guys on the third place La Habra team.
Looks like you've played some matches against tennistim too.
Ah which guys do you know? They're all pretty cool.

Yeah Tim and I are gonna be in the same 4.5 team in spring for SF (he's moving back up). Good player, perfect singles #2 to ensure the win which we lacked before
 
Ah which guys do you know? They're all pretty cool.

Yeah Tim and I are gonna be in the same 4.5 team in spring for SF (he's moving back up). Good player, perfect singles #2 to ensure the win which we lacked before

I text Leonard time to time about captain stuff. I've hit with Kevin, Lawrence, Tyrone, and Gavin before.
One of Tim's teammates mentioned that Tim was looking to move back up to NorCal. He'll be a solid 2 line for your Spring season!
I watched some of his youtube vids to scout how he plays and matched up my singles players accordingly during this past season and I'm sure others might do the same.
 

MarinaHighTennis

Hall of Fame
I text Leonard time to time about captain stuff. I've hit with Kevin, Lawrence, Tyrone, and Gavin before.
One of Tim's teammates mentioned that Tim was looking to move back up to NorCal. He'll be a solid 2 line for your Spring season!
I watched some of his youtube vids to scout how he plays and matched up my singles players accordingly during this past season and I'm sure others might do the same.
Ah nice I know Lawrence, he's cool and a good player. The others I don't know too well.

Haha I guess that's a bad thing to be in the internet too much. I don't post my name to my videos so no one knows who I am to search but I only do highlights anyways haha
 
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