so, now that 2 out of big 3 are retired and no one has all stats on his side, who is greater?

???

  • Fed

    Votes: 45 54.9%
  • Rafa

    Votes: 37 45.1%

  • Total voters
    82

IW-miami-madrid-rome-W-USO-AO

so if not for nole he would probable won rafa-slam and had one of the best years in tennis history, almost as noles W15-RG16!

No not really. His problem with Djoker was because he slowed down and lost his speed and explosion. The two biggest weapons in his game. Lost some stamina too. But to be expected. He started winning slams in 2005. Djoker didn’t start start his run until late 07-early08. And didn’t begin his real run until he was almost 24 years old. Again, downfalls of being an early bloomer. You start to decline by 25


There isn’t a single surface 2011 Nadal would beat 2008-2010 Nadal. Not one. It’s much like late 07 when the cracks started opening for Fed and the littlest crack was exploited. And by 2008 it showed especially at Wimbledon. We all know 07 Fed wouldn’t win at all vs 05-06 Fed. It’s the same situation here. Sure Fed still had a three slam year but the decline was already apparent and cracks opened. That’s when Nadal seized opportunity. It’s the exact same scenario as 2022. Nadal was still good enough to beat the 2011 field. But the slightest decline is huge against another ATG


The big difference is Djoker didn’t have an all time great breathing down his neck when he declined like fedal did . Sinner and alcaraz were way after the fact after Djoker spent years vulturing
 
Last edited:

Tensky1

New User
LOL
OP is a die-hard Djoker fanboy who conveniently left out his worshipper(Nole) name out of the poll. But it doesn't matter since any rational fan never take TTW poll seriously.

Djoko fan base are so insecure
Nadal and Federer fans are some of the most fragile fans across all sports. Nothing to feel insecure about, Novak has left them so far behind
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
Here's the thing though, interpretation will always have an element of subjective bias. Saying Borg has 3 channel slams is objective fact that cannot be argued. Saying it was harder in his time is an argument, which may or may not be universally agreed upon.

Yeah but I followed tennis for a long time and did some research on eras before my time too, of course I'm gonna have my own formed opinion on tennis things.

Universally agreed upon is something I don't particulary care about. A lot of uninformed people can agree on a single thing, it won't make them right in my eyes. If I disagree, I disagree.

Borg is a legendary player, unique in many regards. He's absolutely on par (at the very least) with the big 3 in my eyes.
 

BauerAlmeida

Hall of Fame
I take Federer by a whisker over Nadal for the #2 player of the 21st century. I ultimately place more emphasis on weeks at #1 than just about anybody. Weeks at #1 has been a massive metric during my entire time of following tennis, which spans back to the late-1970s. In 1988, Sports Illustrated had a big article that talked about Lendl’s consecutive weeks at #1 ending at 157; 3 shy of Connor’s’ record. They detailed every one of his injuries(truckload of them all year). Courier also said this same thing about weeks at #1’being a better metric than slams.

And I’m being consistent here. So although this looks like I’m being biased here for my guy Federer, in 2021, I posted here stating that Djoker had taken the definitive lead after winning the FO, despite him still being 3rd in the slam title race. Weeks at #1 was the big reason why. Deep down, I knew he was ahead before bagging that title. But that title made it too obvious.

If I were to make a goat list, then the contenders would have to be the guys that won their eras.

I’d probably go with Laver, Connors, Lendl, Sampras, and Djokovic as the contenders. Unfortunately, Federer is out. So is Nadal. They couldn’t win their eras. So they clearly are eliminated. Honestly, my gut says it’s between Laver and Djoker. The others have some serious chinks in their armor. Connors terrible record vs top-5 is his biggest one. Sampras early decline hurts him a lot, along with no FO finals played. Lendl couldn’t bag the Holy Grail of tourneys(Wimbledon).

This being said, I still love Federer’s incredible run, despite how short-lived it was. The guy’s C-game was still getting him to slam semis and quarters nearly all the time. He holds some incredible records.


Federer definitely had his era too. He has the record of consecutive years at #1 after all, and his domination lasted as long as Sampras's, Connors's or Lendl's. From Wimbledon 2003 to AO 2010 it's definitely long enough to be an era.
 

Racquet_smash

Professional
This has been discussed to death and now that Nadal is retiring hopefully there will be less of these posts.

There's one thing i would like to point out tough. Nadal in his 30s lost 50% of his speed and agility compared to his early 20s, his injuries massively increased yet he was able to win 8 slams from 2017 to 2022. Federer came back at retirement age after a bad injury in 2016 and still claimed 3 GS titles in 1 year and a half at 36.

You'd have to be a fool to not see how nonexistent the competition has been for years. Now, people who always saw Nadal and Federer as better players than Djokovic aren't going to change their minds because he beat players like Kyrgios, Berrettini or Tsitsipas in slam finals.

Same goes the other way around. Those who always saw Djokovic as the best player are never going to change idea because his opposition lately hasn't been strong. The opposite instead.

That's why these kind of posts always end up the same way. Someone who's convinced of who the best player is simply isn't going on the other side for arguments beaten to death.
 
Crazy how far ahead Novak is. Really has left these two in the dust
... and yet everyone would still rather play like Federer lol.

Most people are waking up that beating Ruud, Tsitsipas, Norrie, Kyrgios, Berritini etc in finals for 6 years straight is NOT impressive in the slightest
 
What's the point of presenting the third option that beats the other 2 in every category? You're the one who's been saying that Djokovic is the GOAT for the last 10 years so what's the issue now?


He was breaking Hewitt's record, but that doesn't have such a nice ring to it, does it? He's behind Nadal in M1000, and even that pace wasn't good enough for #1. One slam ahead of #2 also doesn't sound like a demolition. Carlos was 7 YE#1s away from breaking the record in 2023, now he'll be 8 away in 2025. He got his YE#1 and weeks with 7k points, which was already a sign that you should look deeper into it. 1 GS, 1 YE#1, 36 weeks at #1; that's the actual cushion. Of course if you get your information from Nike's commercials, believe that he's 6'1 and that there are signs he'll beat the big 3 records, sure, go for it.

Also, lol at the comparison. They all have played against each other. Federer and Nadal have never played anyone more often than Novak. He practically built his career on beating giants. The only time Rafa managed to reach all 4 GS finals, he lost 3 of those to Novak, so trying to separate their career's is just pure dishonesty.
Federer and Nadal were way past their primes from 2014, Federer was well into his 30's by then, Nadal was late 20's and couldnt complete a full season post 2012 and by 2014 had lost loads of his foot speed. Djokovic won most of his slams from 2015 onwards and it was always expected Djokovic and Murray would replace Federer and Nadal around that time at the top of the game after Federer and Nadal had 10 years of legendary battles. Of course Murray sadly fell away totally from 2017 due to his hip issues. There is a clear dividing line you cannot argue against.
 

Neptune

Hall of Fame
Both Novak and Fed dominated A weak field at some point in their careers…
1ntBuQR.png

Nole dominated for 13 years, can't help if those top rivals are weak. :cool:
 
So you consider Alcaraz, Sinner, etc delusional for thinking Fed is the GOAT?
It their opinion. It can be respected but it still delusional when you look at the records. He is nowhere near. The fact is if people told Fed himself he’s the GOAT he’d cringe.

Fed hated pity or given something which he didn’t deserve. He certainly would have said he was when he had the records but he’d laugh and be like no way if you told him now.

Plus alcaraz actually said Djokovic is the best due to records but Fed and Rafa are tops. Meaning they up there with him.

Sinner did say Fed was the best but fed was one of his big idols. It his view but I’m afraid on a general consensus it just can’t be taken seriously anymore. He once had a serious case but he’s been left behind in too many areas now.

I think it ok to say Fed is right up there with Djokovic and Nadal but to say he’s the best just doesn’t hold up well considering the gap that had appeared.

I don’t even think Djokovic is the GOAT because you can’t compete eras and no one is perfect. He has the best CV though and has the strongest case to be viewed as the best to play it.
 
Last edited:

itrium84

Hall of Fame
FedRafa
YE#15 -35 -3
weeks310 (+48%) -3209 -6
slams20 -322 (+10%) -2
WTF6 -20
OGSG -3
masters28 -336 (+29%) -2
big titles54 -359 (+9%) -2
all titles103 (+12%) -292 -4
CGS1 -32 (+100%) -2
max points (09-23 system)15495 -215390* -3
h2h16+WO24
Fed.

1. Titles - Rafa has big titles lead, not by too much, but enough for everyone to notice the difference
2. No1 record - Huge difference in weeks no1, they're not even in the same tier
3. Peak domination - Rafa never managed to come close to Fed's 2004-2007 level, in terms of domination over the field in 52+ weeks timeframe
4. Career versatility - Fed is one of the best grass, hard court and indoors players in tennis history. Rafa is the clay god, but also non-ATG indoors.
 

Lleytonstation

Talk Tennis Guru
1. Grand Slams.
2. Double Career Grand Slam.
3. Olympics.
4. H2H (both in Slams and overall, and including 8-6 in outdoor hard and 3-1 at the AO, and Rafa has always led Federer in the H2H, even when Roger was young and at his best in 2004-2007 and 2004-2009).
5. Big Titles.
6. Masters 1000.
2 and 3 are not arguments. 5/6 are basically just one.

Slams: Rafa
Weeks: Fed
Masters: Rafa
h2h: Rafa
ATP finals: Fed

Rafa wins out.
 

GoatNo1

Hall of Fame
LOL
OP is a die-hard Djoker fanboy who conveniently left out his worshipper(Nole) name out of the poll. But it doesn't matter since any rational fan never take TTW poll seriously.

Djoko fan base are so insecure

1. nole has not retired and they did. so we can talk about them 2 that we have complete overview over their accomplishment there they will not add anything big any more.
2. nole is already so far ahead that GOAT question become apsurd. he has outclassed both. and bc he is still active the gap between him and the duo can only be bigger!
 

GoatNo1

Hall of Fame
1ntBuQR.png

Nole dominated for 13 years, can't help if those top rivals are weak. :cool:
not 13 but 11. he had 2 eras 5,5 years each. not one 13 year. W16-RG18 is too deep and long fall to ignore.

so

no1e era1: 11-RG16
W16-WTF16: muzzas half year
17-RG18: fedals renaissance
no1e era2: W18-23
 

GoatNo1

Hall of Fame
It their opinion. It can be respected but it still delusional when you look at the records. He is nowhere near. The fact is if people told Fed himself he’s the GOAT he’d cringe.

Fed hated pity or given something which he didn’t deserve. He certainly would have said he was when he had the records but he’d laugh and be like no way if you told him now.

Plus alcaraz actually said Djokovic is the best due to records but Fed and Rafa are tops. Meaning they up there with him.

Sinner did say Fed was the best but fed was one of his big idols. It his view but I’m afraid on a general consensus it just can’t be taken seriously anymore. He once had a serious case but he’s been left behind in too many areas now.

I think it ok to say Fed is right up there with Djokovic and Nadal but to say he’s the best just doesn’t hold up well considering the gap that had appeared.

I don’t even think Djokovic is the GOAT because you can’t compete eras and no one is perfect. He has the best CV though and has the strongest case to be viewed as the best to play it.
in the end it is only results and accomplishments that can decide the GOAT. and it is noles records that the next generations would chase! next generation will not have aye test and filings for players from the past. as individual sport tennis GOAT and greats are not as difficult to decide especially when 3 top candidates played in the same time and a hell number of matches between each other.

 

GoatNo1

Hall of Fame
i think that they are pretty even and if i most chose it will be fed bc he is better on 2 out of 3 surfaces and was the GOAT for some time. but i see that there are pretty even in the poll and that many others think that they are even. so i should made that option in the poll (even is missing).
 
Last edited:

Lleytonstation

Talk Tennis Guru
in the end it is only results and accomplishments that can decide the GOAT. and it is noles records that the next generations would chase! next generation will not have aye test and filings for players from the past. as individual sport tennis GOAT and greats are not as difficult to decide especially when 3 top candidates played in the same time and a hell number of matches between each other.

Fed chased sampras, Rafa chased fed, djoker chased rafa.

Now Carlos is chasing djoker. Each generation gets better and sets their goals based on the last generation.
 

Unseeded Player

Hall of Fame
It would be nice if you could include the position of each achievement on the OE list. There's the anomaly with Rafa's YEC that I think is too big to ignore. He's also not in top 5 of W#1, whereas Roger doesn't leave top 3 in any stat other than OG. Had Federer won 2017 YE#1 or even the YEC it would have been clear, but now I'd say he's slightly ahead
The thing is Fed made most of this before Nadal entered his prime, after that problems started.
As great as Djokovic I don't think it's close imo.


A look at Djokovic 6 years in his peak/prime from 2011 - 2016. During his reigning champion at his peak/prime, he achieved:

Slam titles: 11
Slam finals: 19
won 3 out of 4 slams in a season 2 times
reaches 4 finals in 2015
48 single titles

He accumulated 223 weeks at the top of the ATP rankings including 122 consecutive weeks.
4 years he ended the YE #1.

Very impressive but not close to Federer
But compare now competition that Novak had and competition Fed had.
 

GoatNo1

Hall of Fame
Fed chased sampras, Rafa chased fed, djoker chased rafa.

Now Carlos is chasing djoker. Each generation gets better and sets their goals based on the last generation.
no

everybody chase a record. and slams are not the only thing of importance. rafa got a slam record with a huge asterisk and nole overtook it just a year later. so it was not so much of the chase. both of them was chasing fed for a big part of their career.

nole chased:

mostly feds slams
sampras YE#1
feds weeks
feds WTF
rafas masters
couriers titles
lavers GS

so it is not just rafa or just fed

next generations will chase noles: YE#1, weeks, slams, WTFs, masters, big titles, CGS, CGM, W% ?, nole-slam, ATP points record, and maybe total titles. so almost all main records. it is just CYGS and probable total titles that will not be him they will chase after.

noles name s all over OE records, take a look:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Era_tennis_records_–_Men's_singles
 
Last edited:

weakera

Talk Tennis Guru
No not really. His problem with Djoker was because he slowed down and lost his speed and explosion. The two biggest weapons in his game. Lost some stamina too. But to be expected. He started winning slams in 2005. Djoker didn’t start start his run until late 07-early08. And didn’t begin his real run until he was almost 24 years old. Again, downfalls of being an early bloomer. You start to decline by 25


There isn’t a single surface 2011 Nadal would beat 2008-2010 Nadal. Not one. It’s much like late 07 when the cracks started opening for Fed and the littlest crack was exploited. And by 2008 it showed especially at Wimbledon. We all know 07 Fed wouldn’t win at all vs 05-06 Fed. It’s the same situation here. Sure Fed still had a three slam year but the decline was already apparent and cracks opened. That’s when Nadal seized opportunity. It’s the exact same scenario as 2022. Nadal was still good enough to beat the 2011 field. But the slightest decline is huge against another ATG


The big difference is Djoker didn’t have an all time great breathing down his neck when he declined like fedal did . Sinner and alcaraz were way after the fact after Djoker spent years vulturing

True. Well said.
 

Lleytonstation

Talk Tennis Guru
no

everybody chase a record. and slams are not the only thing of importance. rafa got a slam record with a huge asterisk and nole overtook it just a year later. so it was not so much of the chase. both of them was chasing fed for a big part of their career.

nole chased:

mostly feds slams
sampras YE#1
feds weeks
feds WTF
rafas masters
couriers titles
lavers GS

so it is not just rafa or just fed

next generations will chase noles: YE#1, weeks, slams, WTFs, masters, big titles, CGS, CGM, W% ?, nole-slam, ATP points record, and maybe total titles. so almost all main records. it is just CYGS and probable total titles that will not be him they will chase after.

take a look:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Era_tennis_records_–_Men's_singles
No.

Carlos is chasing one thing. Slams. Djoker was chasing slams. So was rafa. Maybe weeks but that's it.

So yes, djoker was chasing rafa slams just as rafa chased fed's.
 

weakera

Talk Tennis Guru
This has been discussed to death and now that Nadal is retiring hopefully there will be less of these posts.

There's one thing i would like to point out tough. Nadal in his 30s lost 50% of his speed and agility compared to his early 20s, his injuries massively increased yet he was able to win 8 slams from 2017 to 2022. Federer came back at retirement age after a bad injury in 2016 and still claimed 3 GS titles in 1 year and a half at 36.

You'd have to be a fool to not see how nonexistent the competition has been for years. Now, people who always saw Nadal and Federer as better players than Djokovic aren't going to change their minds because he beat players like Kyrgios, Berrettini or Tsitsipas in slam finals.

Same goes the other way around. Those who always saw Djokovic as the best player are never going to change idea because his opposition lately hasn't been strong. The opposite instead.

That's why these kind of posts always end up the same way. Someone who's convinced of who the best player is simply isn't going on the other side for arguments beaten to death.


Let's be real, Djokovic fattened up his resume on weak competition more than Nadal or Federer did, by far. And Federer is clearly in 2nd place in this regard given the state of the tour from 2004-2007.

The problem is when people refuse to acknowledge this reality or the concept of relativism in tour strength, not when they pick a 'best' of the big three, which everyone is entitled to do.
 

Unseeded Player

Hall of Fame
Let's be real, Djokovic fattened up his resume on weak competition more than Nadal or Federer did, by far. And Federer is clearly in 2nd place in this regard given the state of the tour from 2004-2007.

The problem is when people refuse to acknowledge this reality or the concept of relativism in tour strength, not when they pick a 'best' of the big three, which everyone is entitled to do.
Novak also went double digits when the competiton was stronger, unlike Fed.
 

weakera

Talk Tennis Guru
Novak also went double digits when the competiton was stronger, unlike Fed.

It's not that simple, given Federer and Djokovic's age at the time of the stronger competition.

As badly as people want to evaluate things in binary terms, things are more complicated than that. From my perspective, the more nuance we take into consideration, the more Djokovic's legacy becomes 'qualified' and in need of weighting. Which is of course why Djokovic fans prefer to measure things strictly based off the numbers alone.

Wimbledon 2019 is an excellent microcosm of this. Federer played Djokovic to a 5-hour standstill despite the 7-year age difference, and lost by one point. And yet, the glory is all to Djokovic and the humiliation to Federer. There is a poetic cruelty in that.
 

GoatNo1

Hall of Fame
No.

Carlos is chasing one thing. Slams. Djoker was chasing slams. So was rafa. Maybe weeks but that's it.

So yes, djoker was chasing rafa slams just as rafa chased fed's.
no

nole was always saying that no1 is most important for him. since he was kid. it is change now when he most drastically reduce his schedule
fed said that he would take another YE#1 over another slam
sampras said that YE#1 is his biggest accomplishment

sampras offered next AO for his last YE#1
muzza probable offered his career for his only YE#1
nole took WC for MM tournament before WTF a few years ago just to secure YE#1 and then tanked the very next match after he secured it

nole chased every record he has and that was other players. OG is another exemple, he completed tennis. slams are not never was and never will be all. why play tennis after USO and outside the slams?
 

Lleytonstation

Talk Tennis Guru
no

nole was always saying that no1 is most important for him. since he was kid. it is change now when he most drastically reduce his schedule
fed said that he would take another YE#1 over another slam
sampras said that YE#1 is his biggest accomplishment

sampras offered next AO for his last YE#1
muzza probable offered his career for his only YE#1
nole took WC for MM tournament before WTF a few years ago just to secure YE#1 and then tanked the very next match after he secured it

nole chased every record he has and that was other players. OG is another exemple, he completed tennis. slams are not never was and never will be all. why play tennis after USO and outside the slams?
Djoker was chasing fed and rafa is whole career. Fed paved the way. This is facts.

He was never shooting for a number, but simply more, which rafa and Fed set. Carlos isn't shooting for 30 slams, he is shooting for more than djoker.
 
Djoker was chasing fed and rafa is whole career. Fed paved the way. This is facts.

He was never shooting for a number, but simply more, which rafa and Fed set. Carlos isn't shooting for 30 slams, he is shooting for more than djoker.
He still had to do it though. Just because he had a target chase doesn’t mean it was easy to do. To think how much he had to win to overcome them is bananas. There is no guarantee Djokovic records will be broken. It is the same in darts with Taylor or golf with Jack Nicklaus.
 
Top