N
So now that Pete and Roger have 7 Wimbledons..
- Thread starter 90's Clay
- Start date
Hewitt lost in the first round in 2003, the first year Federer won Wimbledon. Thank you for showing that it was difficult to get through the early rounds during both Sampras' and Federer's title runs.
Federer actually made 7 finals in 7 years which is better than 7 in 8.
PMChambers
Hall of Fame
First Serve - 9 Sampras vs 8 Federer
Second Serve - 10 Sampras vs 8 Federer
Forehand Volley - 7 Sampras vs 5 Federer
Backhand Volley - 8 Sampras vs 6 Federer
Forehand Drive - 9 Sampras vs 10 Federer
Backhand Drive - 7 Sampras vs 6 Federer
Backhand Slice - 7 Sampras vs 9 Federer
Return Forehand - 8 Sampras vs 9 Federer
Return Backhand - 7 Sampras vs 6 Federer
Movement Forward - 8 Sampras vs 8 Federer
Movement Sideways - 7 Sampras vs 9 Federer
Smash - 10 Sampras vs 8 Federer
Mental - 9 Sampras vs 6 Federer
Note: The numbers are a little arbitrary and just represent a level difference in shot.
Federer would probably beat Sampras from the back of the court but Wimbledon is still a serve volley surface and Sampras went to net on nearly everything mitigating a baseline rally. Federer weakness are his average volleying, backhand return and metal state. Sampras weakness is his backhand and lateral movement. Sampras is the better grass court player and the only way that will change is if Federer changes his game and becomes a better volleyer regardless of how many Wimbledon he wins. The initial question, who was the best grass court player, should be based on who plays the best grass court game rather than purely who has won more Wimbledon's.
Maybe Federer biggest problem with grass is that he is so good at the back of the court that he has the option to stay back which results in him becoming uncertain about going forward. Pete never had any misconceptions about staying back on grass it was the slower hard courts like AO where he became uncertain about risk vs reward.
The 2008 Nadal win was one of the most frustrating Wim in the open era, although media claim it was a great spectacle is demonstrated the poor level of grass court tennis and Federer in ability to volley. Murray also won with a very poor grass court game, even Hewitt has a better grass court game with superior volleys, lobs and flatter more offensive ground shots.
Grass court tennis is pretty much dead. It's all about the champagne, pimms! and strawberries. The tennis is a side event, the only way it will get better is to make the FO 2 weeks earlier and Wim 2 weeks latter, make a grass court ATP 1000 event in the middle and couple of ATP 500 events and speed up the other surfaces or bring back indoor carpet events. Wimbledon is an anomaly, it needs to be more the norm if you want decent grass court tennis else we're just watching the best of the slow hard courters.
Second Serve - 10 Sampras vs 8 Federer
Forehand Volley - 7 Sampras vs 5 Federer
Backhand Volley - 8 Sampras vs 6 Federer
Forehand Drive - 9 Sampras vs 10 Federer
Backhand Drive - 7 Sampras vs 6 Federer
Backhand Slice - 7 Sampras vs 9 Federer
Return Forehand - 8 Sampras vs 9 Federer
Return Backhand - 7 Sampras vs 6 Federer
Movement Forward - 8 Sampras vs 8 Federer
Movement Sideways - 7 Sampras vs 9 Federer
Smash - 10 Sampras vs 8 Federer
Mental - 9 Sampras vs 6 Federer
Note: The numbers are a little arbitrary and just represent a level difference in shot.
Federer would probably beat Sampras from the back of the court but Wimbledon is still a serve volley surface and Sampras went to net on nearly everything mitigating a baseline rally. Federer weakness are his average volleying, backhand return and metal state. Sampras weakness is his backhand and lateral movement. Sampras is the better grass court player and the only way that will change is if Federer changes his game and becomes a better volleyer regardless of how many Wimbledon he wins. The initial question, who was the best grass court player, should be based on who plays the best grass court game rather than purely who has won more Wimbledon's.
Maybe Federer biggest problem with grass is that he is so good at the back of the court that he has the option to stay back which results in him becoming uncertain about going forward. Pete never had any misconceptions about staying back on grass it was the slower hard courts like AO where he became uncertain about risk vs reward.
The 2008 Nadal win was one of the most frustrating Wim in the open era, although media claim it was a great spectacle is demonstrated the poor level of grass court tennis and Federer in ability to volley. Murray also won with a very poor grass court game, even Hewitt has a better grass court game with superior volleys, lobs and flatter more offensive ground shots.
Grass court tennis is pretty much dead. It's all about the champagne, pimms! and strawberries. The tennis is a side event, the only way it will get better is to make the FO 2 weeks earlier and Wim 2 weeks latter, make a grass court ATP 1000 event in the middle and couple of ATP 500 events and speed up the other surfaces or bring back indoor carpet events. Wimbledon is an anomaly, it needs to be more the norm if you want decent grass court tennis else we're just watching the best of the slow hard courters.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
You do realize Nadal has been ousted in the early rounds in the last years right? So it is as difficult to go deep as in pete's time.
So fed reaching 7 cons finals is even more impressive than 7 in 8 years
mike danny
Bionic Poster
19 year old federer showed that he can compete with pete at the net.
Let's be honest pete at 29 had better voleying experience than Fed at 19 yet still went toe to toe with him.
So federer CAN volley but today's slow courts make life much more difficult to do it. Even pete would struggle in these conditions
You are right that Sampras has the slightly better serve, but Federer has the vastly better return. The difference between the two on the return is greater than the difference on the serve in my opinion.
Your numbers show the return of serve as equal, but I strongly disagree with that assessment.
N
Nathaniel_Near
Guest
Historically, Pete has been slightly more dominant on serve than Federer at Wimbledon, though Federer I think holds the record between the two of conceding the least BP's over the course of the tournament.
Federer is superior to Sampras off the ground on the grass whether it be forehand or backhand drives or slices. Sampras is superior at the net and when he wants to equals Federer's return ability on the surface, though he put less into return games generally probably than Federer did.
Here are some statistics that were compiled by NYCTennisFan over at the other forum.
''Some serve stats of the past 18 Wimbledon champions. The break chances stat can be a bit misleading because someone can get down 15-40, save the break points, only to get broken after the opponent takes the AD, hence having more break points against because you were saving them in the first place. Then again, why in the hell are you getting down 0-40 Pete or Goran? . In any case, here are the stats. Nobody dominated the 1st serve points won like Sampras. Federer has done extremely well on his second serve. Only Stich, Hewitt and Agassi in the past 15 years have been broken in the double digits.
PLAYER.....YEAR....# of GAMES SERVED...BP WON AGAINST....1st serve pts won...2nd serve points won....1st serve %...tot. % GAMES HELD...tot. % of service points won
Michael Stich....1991...132...11/45...80.3%...58.6%...56.2%...91.7%....70.8%
Andre Agassi.....1992...132...17/50...73.1%....51.7%..61.2%...87.7%....64.8%
Pete Sampras....1993...123...5/22.....85.9%....49.8%..66.9%..95.9%....73.9%
Pete Sampras....1994...106...2/22....89.8%.....55.3%..64.3%...98.1%...77.5%
Pete Sampras....1995...132...8/35.....87.3%.....53%....61.1%...93.9%...73.9%
Richard Krajicek..1996...110...6/30.....88.3%....52.7%..64.5%...91.8%...75.7%
Pete Sampras.....1997...118...2/19.....89.4%.....56%...70.4%...98.3%...79.5%
Pete Sampras.....1998...121...6/32.....89.1%....53.8%..57.7%...95%.....74.2%
Pete Sampras.....1999...101...5/18.....89.7%....50.2%..63.8%...95%.....75.4%
Pete Sampras.....2000...123...5/29.....82.7%....57.3%...65.1%...95.9%..73.8%
Goran Ivanisevic..2001...147...9/27.....85.7%....54.3%...60%.....93.9%...73.1%
Lleyton Hewitt....2002....107....11/41...78.2%....59.6%...54%....89.7%...69.6%
Roger Federer.....2003...105....8/30.....77.9%....59.3%...61.4%..92.4%...70.4%
Roger Federer.....2004...108....6/33.....77.1%....62.1%...67.2....94.4%....72.2%
Roger Federer.....2005....111....7/16.....80%......63%....64.8%...93.7%...74.0%
Roger Federer.....2006....100....4/12.....79.5%.....64%....66.5%...96%....74.3%
Roger Federer.....2007....102....7/24.....78.0%.....61%....65.1%...93%....72.1%
Rafael Nadal........2008....123....5/23.....77.7%.....62%....72.4%...96%....73.4%
Roger Federer.....2009....135....5/19.....87.5%.....61%....66.9%...96.3%..78.7%
Rafael Nadal........2010....124....7/23.....79.0%.....61.9%..68.1%...94.4%..73.6%
Novak Djokovic....2011....107...11/28...77.4%.....59%....68.5%...89.7%...71.6%
Roger Federer.....2012....133....9/31.....78.0%.....58.5%...67.3%...93.2%..72.1%
Ranked by Total % of serve points won
Pete Sampras......1997.........79.51%
Roger Federer.....2009.........78.73%
Pete Sampras......1994.........77.48%
Richard Krajicek...1996.........75.66%
Pete Sampras......1999.........75.40%
Roger Federer.....2006.........74.30%
Pete Sampras......1998.........74.17%
Roger Federer.....2005.........74.02%
Pete Sampras......1995.........73.96%
Pete Sampras......1993.........73.95%
Pete Sampras......2000.........73.84%
Rafael Nadal........2010..........73.6%
Rafael Nadal........2008..........73.37%
Goran Ivanisevic...2001.........73.14%
Roger Federer......2004.........72.18%
Roger Federer.....2007..........72.07%
Roger Federer.....2012.........72.04%
Novak Djokovic....2011........71.6%
Michael Stich......1991..........70.80%
Roger Federer.....2003.........70.72%
Lleyton Hewitt.....2002.........69.64%
Andre Agassi.......1992.........64.80%
Ranked by % of first serve points won
Pete Sampras......1994.....89.8%
Pete Sampras......1999.....89.7%
Pete Sampras......1997.....89.4%
Pete Sampras......1998.....89.1%
Richard Krajicek...1996.....88.3%
Roger Federer......2009.....87.5%
Pete Sampras......1995.....87.3%
Pete Sampras......1993.....85.9%
Goran Ivanisevic..2001.....85.7%
Pete Sampras......2000.....82.7%
Michael Stich........1991......80.3%
Roger Federer......2005.....80.0%
Roger Federer......2006.....79.5%
Rafael Nadal........2010......79.0%
Lleyton Hewitt......2002.....78.2%
Roger Federer......2007.....78.0%
Roger Federer......2012......78.0%
Roger Federer.....2003......77.9%
Rafael Nadal........2008.......77.7%
Novak Djokovic....2011......77.4%
Roger Federer.....2004......77.1%
Andre Agassi.......1992......73.1%
Ranked by % of second serve points won
Roger Federer.....2006......64.0%
Roger Federer.....2005......63.0%
Roger Federer.....2004......62.1%
Rafael Nadal.......2008......62.0%
Rafael Nadal.......2010.......61.9%
Roger Federer.....2007......61.0%
Roger Federer.....2009......61.0%
Lleyton Hewitt....2002.......59.6%
Roger Federer.....2003......59.4%
Novak Djokovic....2011......59.0%
Michael Stich........1991.......58.6%
Roger Federer.....2012........58.5%
Pete Sampras.....2000.......57.3%
Pete Sampras.....1997.......56.0%
Pete Sampras.....1994.......55.3%
Goran Ivanisevic..2001......54.3%
Pete Sampras.....1998.......53.8%
Pete Sampras....1995.......53.0%
Richard Krajicek..1996......52.7%
Pete Sampras.....1999......50.2%
Andre Agassi.....1992.......51.7%
Pete Sampras....1993.......49.8%
Ranked by total % of service games held
Pete Sampras.....1997......98.3%
Pete Sampras....1994.......98.1%
Roger Federer.....2009......96.3%
Roger Federer.....2006......96.0%
Rafael Nadal.......2008......96.0%
Pete Sampras.....2000......95.9%
Pete Sampras....1993.......95.9%
Pete Sampras.....1998......95.0%
Pete Sampras.....1999......95.0%
Roger Federer.....2004......94.4%
Rafael Nadal.......2010.......94.4%
Pete Sampras....1995.......93.9%
Goran Ivanisevic..2001......93.9%
Roger Federer.....2005......93.7%
Roger Federer.....2012......93.3%
Roger Federer.....2007......93.0%
Roger Federer.....2003......92.4%
Richard Krajicek..1996......91.8%
Michael Stich.......1991.........91.7%
Lleyton Hewitt.....2002.......89.7%
Novak Djokovic...2011.......89.7%
Andre Agassi.......1992.......87.7%
Ranked by fewest amount of times serve was broken
Pete Sampras......1994.............2
Pete Sampras......1997.............2
Roger Federer......2006.............4
Pete Sampras......1993.............5
Pete Sampras......1999.............5
Pete Sampras......2000.............5
Rafael Nadal........2008.............5
Roger Federer......2009.............5
Richard Krajicek....1996.............6
Pete Sampras......1998.............6
Roger Federer......2004.............6
Roger Federer......2005............7
Roger Federer......2007............7
Rafael Nadal........2010.............7
Pete Sampras......1995............8
Roger Federer......2003............8
Goran Ivanisevic...2001............9
Roger Federer......2012............9
Lleyton Hewitt.....2002.............11
Michael Stich......1991..............11
Novak Djokovic.....2011.............11
Andre Agassi.......1992..............17
Ranked by fewest amount of break points allowed
Roger Federer.....2006...................12
Roger Federer.....2005...................16
Pete Sampras.....1999...................18
Pete Sampras.....1997...................19
Roger Federer.....2009...................19
Pete Sampras....1993....................22
Pete Sampras....1994....................22
Rafael Nadal.......2008...................23
Rafael Nadal........2010..................23
Roger Federer.....2007...................24
Goran Ivanisevic..2001..................27
Novak Djokovic....2011..................28
Pete Sampras.....2000...................29
Richard Krajicek..1996...................30
Roger Federer.....2003...................30
Roger Federer.....2012...................31
Pete Sampras.....1998...................32
Roger Federer.....2004...................33
Pete Sampras....1995....................35
Lleyton Hewitt....2002...................41
Michael Stich....1991.....................45
Andre Agassi.....1992....................50
Hewitt and Federer use the return of service a lot more than Sampras, Becker, Krajicek, Goran, etc. of the mid 90's since the speed of the court has been slowed down and the returner has more of a chance. Hewitt and Federer served a lot less than everyone else except Sampras of '94 since he was breaking and holding serve. Sampras of 1999 had a retirement by Flip. Had Flip not retired, Sampras probably would've come close to 120 serve games for that year as well.
***A note about Pete's dominance on serve. He had a record of 58-2 from 1992-2000 where he was a SF, W, W, W, QF, W, W, W, W.
In those 60 matches, he had 11 matches where he didn't face a break point at all, and had 31 matches in all where he wasn't broken. That's about 52% of his matches in that run where he wasn't even broken. ''
Federer is superior to Sampras off the ground on the grass whether it be forehand or backhand drives or slices. Sampras is superior at the net and when he wants to equals Federer's return ability on the surface, though he put less into return games generally probably than Federer did.
Here are some statistics that were compiled by NYCTennisFan over at the other forum.
''Some serve stats of the past 18 Wimbledon champions. The break chances stat can be a bit misleading because someone can get down 15-40, save the break points, only to get broken after the opponent takes the AD, hence having more break points against because you were saving them in the first place. Then again, why in the hell are you getting down 0-40 Pete or Goran? . In any case, here are the stats. Nobody dominated the 1st serve points won like Sampras. Federer has done extremely well on his second serve. Only Stich, Hewitt and Agassi in the past 15 years have been broken in the double digits.
PLAYER.....YEAR....# of GAMES SERVED...BP WON AGAINST....1st serve pts won...2nd serve points won....1st serve %...tot. % GAMES HELD...tot. % of service points won
Michael Stich....1991...132...11/45...80.3%...58.6%...56.2%...91.7%....70.8%
Andre Agassi.....1992...132...17/50...73.1%....51.7%..61.2%...87.7%....64.8%
Pete Sampras....1993...123...5/22.....85.9%....49.8%..66.9%..95.9%....73.9%
Pete Sampras....1994...106...2/22....89.8%.....55.3%..64.3%...98.1%...77.5%
Pete Sampras....1995...132...8/35.....87.3%.....53%....61.1%...93.9%...73.9%
Richard Krajicek..1996...110...6/30.....88.3%....52.7%..64.5%...91.8%...75.7%
Pete Sampras.....1997...118...2/19.....89.4%.....56%...70.4%...98.3%...79.5%
Pete Sampras.....1998...121...6/32.....89.1%....53.8%..57.7%...95%.....74.2%
Pete Sampras.....1999...101...5/18.....89.7%....50.2%..63.8%...95%.....75.4%
Pete Sampras.....2000...123...5/29.....82.7%....57.3%...65.1%...95.9%..73.8%
Goran Ivanisevic..2001...147...9/27.....85.7%....54.3%...60%.....93.9%...73.1%
Lleyton Hewitt....2002....107....11/41...78.2%....59.6%...54%....89.7%...69.6%
Roger Federer.....2003...105....8/30.....77.9%....59.3%...61.4%..92.4%...70.4%
Roger Federer.....2004...108....6/33.....77.1%....62.1%...67.2....94.4%....72.2%
Roger Federer.....2005....111....7/16.....80%......63%....64.8%...93.7%...74.0%
Roger Federer.....2006....100....4/12.....79.5%.....64%....66.5%...96%....74.3%
Roger Federer.....2007....102....7/24.....78.0%.....61%....65.1%...93%....72.1%
Rafael Nadal........2008....123....5/23.....77.7%.....62%....72.4%...96%....73.4%
Roger Federer.....2009....135....5/19.....87.5%.....61%....66.9%...96.3%..78.7%
Rafael Nadal........2010....124....7/23.....79.0%.....61.9%..68.1%...94.4%..73.6%
Novak Djokovic....2011....107...11/28...77.4%.....59%....68.5%...89.7%...71.6%
Roger Federer.....2012....133....9/31.....78.0%.....58.5%...67.3%...93.2%..72.1%
Ranked by Total % of serve points won
Pete Sampras......1997.........79.51%
Roger Federer.....2009.........78.73%
Pete Sampras......1994.........77.48%
Richard Krajicek...1996.........75.66%
Pete Sampras......1999.........75.40%
Roger Federer.....2006.........74.30%
Pete Sampras......1998.........74.17%
Roger Federer.....2005.........74.02%
Pete Sampras......1995.........73.96%
Pete Sampras......1993.........73.95%
Pete Sampras......2000.........73.84%
Rafael Nadal........2010..........73.6%
Rafael Nadal........2008..........73.37%
Goran Ivanisevic...2001.........73.14%
Roger Federer......2004.........72.18%
Roger Federer.....2007..........72.07%
Roger Federer.....2012.........72.04%
Novak Djokovic....2011........71.6%
Michael Stich......1991..........70.80%
Roger Federer.....2003.........70.72%
Lleyton Hewitt.....2002.........69.64%
Andre Agassi.......1992.........64.80%
Ranked by % of first serve points won
Pete Sampras......1994.....89.8%
Pete Sampras......1999.....89.7%
Pete Sampras......1997.....89.4%
Pete Sampras......1998.....89.1%
Richard Krajicek...1996.....88.3%
Roger Federer......2009.....87.5%
Pete Sampras......1995.....87.3%
Pete Sampras......1993.....85.9%
Goran Ivanisevic..2001.....85.7%
Pete Sampras......2000.....82.7%
Michael Stich........1991......80.3%
Roger Federer......2005.....80.0%
Roger Federer......2006.....79.5%
Rafael Nadal........2010......79.0%
Lleyton Hewitt......2002.....78.2%
Roger Federer......2007.....78.0%
Roger Federer......2012......78.0%
Roger Federer.....2003......77.9%
Rafael Nadal........2008.......77.7%
Novak Djokovic....2011......77.4%
Roger Federer.....2004......77.1%
Andre Agassi.......1992......73.1%
Ranked by % of second serve points won
Roger Federer.....2006......64.0%
Roger Federer.....2005......63.0%
Roger Federer.....2004......62.1%
Rafael Nadal.......2008......62.0%
Rafael Nadal.......2010.......61.9%
Roger Federer.....2007......61.0%
Roger Federer.....2009......61.0%
Lleyton Hewitt....2002.......59.6%
Roger Federer.....2003......59.4%
Novak Djokovic....2011......59.0%
Michael Stich........1991.......58.6%
Roger Federer.....2012........58.5%
Pete Sampras.....2000.......57.3%
Pete Sampras.....1997.......56.0%
Pete Sampras.....1994.......55.3%
Goran Ivanisevic..2001......54.3%
Pete Sampras.....1998.......53.8%
Pete Sampras....1995.......53.0%
Richard Krajicek..1996......52.7%
Pete Sampras.....1999......50.2%
Andre Agassi.....1992.......51.7%
Pete Sampras....1993.......49.8%
Ranked by total % of service games held
Pete Sampras.....1997......98.3%
Pete Sampras....1994.......98.1%
Roger Federer.....2009......96.3%
Roger Federer.....2006......96.0%
Rafael Nadal.......2008......96.0%
Pete Sampras.....2000......95.9%
Pete Sampras....1993.......95.9%
Pete Sampras.....1998......95.0%
Pete Sampras.....1999......95.0%
Roger Federer.....2004......94.4%
Rafael Nadal.......2010.......94.4%
Pete Sampras....1995.......93.9%
Goran Ivanisevic..2001......93.9%
Roger Federer.....2005......93.7%
Roger Federer.....2012......93.3%
Roger Federer.....2007......93.0%
Roger Federer.....2003......92.4%
Richard Krajicek..1996......91.8%
Michael Stich.......1991.........91.7%
Lleyton Hewitt.....2002.......89.7%
Novak Djokovic...2011.......89.7%
Andre Agassi.......1992.......87.7%
Ranked by fewest amount of times serve was broken
Pete Sampras......1994.............2
Pete Sampras......1997.............2
Roger Federer......2006.............4
Pete Sampras......1993.............5
Pete Sampras......1999.............5
Pete Sampras......2000.............5
Rafael Nadal........2008.............5
Roger Federer......2009.............5
Richard Krajicek....1996.............6
Pete Sampras......1998.............6
Roger Federer......2004.............6
Roger Federer......2005............7
Roger Federer......2007............7
Rafael Nadal........2010.............7
Pete Sampras......1995............8
Roger Federer......2003............8
Goran Ivanisevic...2001............9
Roger Federer......2012............9
Lleyton Hewitt.....2002.............11
Michael Stich......1991..............11
Novak Djokovic.....2011.............11
Andre Agassi.......1992..............17
Ranked by fewest amount of break points allowed
Roger Federer.....2006...................12
Roger Federer.....2005...................16
Pete Sampras.....1999...................18
Pete Sampras.....1997...................19
Roger Federer.....2009...................19
Pete Sampras....1993....................22
Pete Sampras....1994....................22
Rafael Nadal.......2008...................23
Rafael Nadal........2010..................23
Roger Federer.....2007...................24
Goran Ivanisevic..2001..................27
Novak Djokovic....2011..................28
Pete Sampras.....2000...................29
Richard Krajicek..1996...................30
Roger Federer.....2003...................30
Roger Federer.....2012...................31
Pete Sampras.....1998...................32
Roger Federer.....2004...................33
Pete Sampras....1995....................35
Lleyton Hewitt....2002...................41
Michael Stich....1991.....................45
Andre Agassi.....1992....................50
Hewitt and Federer use the return of service a lot more than Sampras, Becker, Krajicek, Goran, etc. of the mid 90's since the speed of the court has been slowed down and the returner has more of a chance. Hewitt and Federer served a lot less than everyone else except Sampras of '94 since he was breaking and holding serve. Sampras of 1999 had a retirement by Flip. Had Flip not retired, Sampras probably would've come close to 120 serve games for that year as well.
***A note about Pete's dominance on serve. He had a record of 58-2 from 1992-2000 where he was a SF, W, W, W, QF, W, W, W, W.
In those 60 matches, he had 11 matches where he didn't face a break point at all, and had 31 matches in all where he wasn't broken. That's about 52% of his matches in that run where he wasn't even broken. ''
N
Nathaniel_Near
Guest
Look at the absolutely amazing serving stats of Sampras, who was twice only broken twice over the entire event. The dominance of his first serve is quite amazing to observe even without watching it but merely by looking at the statistics.
Of special note also is Federer's ridiculous levels of superiority and dominance from the baseline in his best years as indicated by points won on his second service; 64% at his best, and miles ahead of the rest regarding ability and control from the baseline on the grass.
Of special note also is Federer's ridiculous levels of superiority and dominance from the baseline in his best years as indicated by points won on his second service; 64% at his best, and miles ahead of the rest regarding ability and control from the baseline on the grass.
PMChambers
Hall of Fame
It's a hard call on the return, Federer tends to rely on a slice of bunt backhand which typically is not effective against Sampras or big S&V. Also his uses a lot of wrist which is OK on today's manicured grass but any other time in history would break down. Federer forehand is awesome but Pete's is a huge weapon also, not as consistent but just as dangerous. Pete's backhand is a bit erratic but very aggressive, but grass is not about consistency on ground shots it's about winning streaks. Hitting a lot of solid good strokes does not win grass games, hitting three great shots in a row every now and again wins matches as long as you can serve. It's one of the main reasons I don't like playing grass court tennis, as Newcombe says "Lightning strikes fast on grass".
tennis_pro
Bionic Poster
So technically the debate was closed after 2001 when the grass was changed? We have to pick the greatest Wimbledon champion but only until that year because the new grass isn't real grass so it doesn't really count. It doesn't matter that playing s-v as a main tactic would be complete suicide on the new grass, you have to play it the proper way.
Let me put it this way - Federer is way more likely to be successful on old grass than Sampras would ever be on the slow one. They both adapted to the conditions they had to play in so there you go.
tennis_pro
Bionic Poster
Sampras leads in the 1st serve department but Federer leads in the 2nd serve department and is miles ahead of Sampras on the return of serve.
And don't tell me the grass is slower so it's easier to return cause it ALSO means that it's harder to hold serve which Federer has done nearly as well as Sampras when virtually all he needed to do was hit a decent 1st serve (and maybe follow it up with a 2nd shot) and the point was his. Not so much these days. Even Roddick who has an all-time 1st serve doesn't even come close to Federer's stats when it comes to serving at Wimbledon. Now put Roddick in the 90's and he's as tough to break as Ivanisevic.
And don't tell me the grass is slower so it's easier to return cause it ALSO means that it's harder to hold serve which Federer has done nearly as well as Sampras when virtually all he needed to do was hit a decent 1st serve (and maybe follow it up with a 2nd shot) and the point was his. Not so much these days. Even Roddick who has an all-time 1st serve doesn't even come close to Federer's stats when it comes to serving at Wimbledon. Now put Roddick in the 90's and he's as tough to break as Ivanisevic.
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You are assuming that Federer would use the same strategy against a serve/volley player...he would not.
edberg volleys
Hall of Fame
Nothing to add, personally. Very good post indeed.
PMChambers
Hall of Fame
I can only call what I see and I've seen Fed struggle with BH returns which he's hidden with great back court game until Nadal and Noel who punish his slice BH return and when forced to drive it struggles. Please note these are relative terms, Fed struggling is all but the bests of the best.
The numbers I put up took about 2 minutes of thinking, not exactly deep thought, but was really aimed to get the conversation back to the question which was who has the best grass court game, rather than who beat whom, who did what, who won more cups, etc. The end of the day the quality of a player needs to be reviewed against his game, unless you're comparing same era similar aged players. There was even a concept that these two players where shooting out for the best grass court player ever, negating Borg, Laver, Hoad Newk and McEnroe. Thought I'd say Mac was very era dependant due to style, Borg would have to be considered a real challenger for the title even in today's conditions.
The arguments are always mute as a player of Federer's skill would have developed a different game had the conditions and opponents been different. But whether it would be as sound as Sampras grass game would be unknown, which is stating Sampras has a better GC game, word tricks.
My biggest problems with Fed as a great GC player is his poor volleying, and the 2008 loss to Nadal where we looked completely lost whilst in good sound volleying position. He effectively imploded mentally in 2008. The typical opponent from 68 to present has gotten less specialised to grass as grass and carpet has become irrelevant. Players develop to the conditions and grass tennis does not exist on the tour any more, the top seeds often can't even play a lead up tournament because FO is so close, therefore they're playing one match a year and an invitational on the stuff which makes it pointless in today's game.
abmk
Bionic Poster
hard call on the return ?
PUHLESE ... federer's return is *significantly* better and its not even close.
federer returned with interest vs the volleyers in sampras, henman, scud in 01 and 03 at wimbledon - flat agressive BH returns. He only started slicing back returns after volleying went down ....
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abmk
Bionic Poster
federer was in sound volleying positions in 08 final and imploded mentally ? LOL wut ? His problem in that final was not so much the volleying as it was the approach shots .
funny, how federer is 'penalised' for losing that match in 5 sets to nadal, whereas very few even consider how sampras was beaten and dominated at his own game by Krajicek in straight sets at the peak of his powers ...He could do zilch because krajicek's 2nd serve was also 'on'.
oh wait, many of those so called fellas have only watched re-runs of that agassi final in 99 , where agassi was serving at 44%. Of course sampras would take advantage of that :roll:
You have a point, but Federer during his peak years of late 2003-early 2007 did not have this issue. In fact, his backhand at that time was considered among the best in the game along with his forehand. Nadal was able to break it down with his extremely heavy ball to that side, but his struggles on that side since 2007 are more due to a drop in his shotmaking abilities on that wing.
Fair enough. Sampras had the better grass court game for fast grass and Federer had the better grass court game for slow grass. There is no way of knowing how each would have fared in the conditions other than the ones they played on, but I think Federer would have done much better on fast grass than Sampras would have on slow grass.
chjtennis
G.O.A.T.
Fed is definitely the better all court player of the two.
chjtennis
G.O.A.T.
Very informative post!
NonP
Legend
I've seen the post with those stats before, and it truly is a valiant effort that deserves our kudos, but it's got one big flaw in that it's based on the incorrect service stats that still plague the ATP website, namely the 1st-serve and 2nd-serve points won. (Basically the ATP counts aces and double faults twice for most of the '90s GS matches, which often leads to an inflated % of 1st-serve points won and even a bigger deflation of 2nd-serve %.) I don't have the exact numbers (maybe slice serve ace does--he's the man in obscure tennis statistics), but the differences in Pete's and Fed's 1st- and 2nd-serve points won aren't as great as the ATP stats suggest.
First, this was only one match. Second, the grass was indeed already "slowed down" in 2001, as the "new" grass was put in place the previous year. Third and most importantly, the courts everywhere never really "slowed down," or if they did this popular notion isn't supported by the facts, which show, on the contrary, that holding serve has most likely never been easier.
merlinpinpin
Hall of Fame
The year when Sampras showed us how it's done vs Bastl, you mean?
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Or pete getting trashed by Krajijek(?)
abmk
Bionic Poster
his performance vs stich in Wim 92 QF and vs rafter in Davis Cup 97 for starters were quite clearly better than the over-rated 99 wim final performance IMO ....
N
Nathaniel_Near
Guest
For overrated performances look no further than Federer Safin AO 2005.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Well i might agree with this one. Safin did play well but he was still 1 pont away from losing in 4
NonP
Legend
Yeah, this and Fed's '06 YEC final against Blake are two high-profile matches that seem to have become part of tennis mythology. Neither was the cleanest match by Pete/Fed.
As to Pete's very best matches I'll add, for two, his Wimby wins over Becker ('95 final and '97 QF). What the younger Pete had over his '99 self is a superior return game. The latter might have had his best serving performance ever (though I reckon there were a handful that were even better), but at the same time he flubbed quite a few casual returns. The younger Pete, OTOH, looked like he could break Boris at will. I have both matches in my library and watch snippets occasionally, and it's pretty ridiculous how much in command Pete was over Becker, who while not quite at best didn't play bad at all. And any version of Boris is harder to break than Agassi on grass.
Speaking of which that last return game of Pete's to break Rafter for the 2nd set (of their '97 DC encounter) has gotta be one of the best ever played by anyone. Think every return but one was a winner or a setup for an easy putaway.
The Isomotion31
Semi-Pro
Both. 2 different reigns of kings. Sampras was a former king and when he stepped down from the throne Fed took over.
abmk
Bionic Poster
totally agree. This is the first time I've seen someone else mention this though -- about the blake match. While fed's BH was stunning in that match, he was making some errors with his fh. In fact his final vs ferrer in the next year was a cleaner match though obviously the highlight reels look clearly better for the blake match.
yeah, agreed . younger pete was clearly better at returning. the 95 wimby final was certainly one of pete's best.
Not so sure about the 97 one vs boris though. Its been a long time since I watched it and I think boris was clearly well past it by that time ...
yeah, that was an excellent return game
NonP
Legend
totally agree. This is the first time I've seen someone else mention this though -- about the blake match. While fed's BH was stunning in that match, he was making some errors with his fh. In fact his final vs ferrer in the next year was a cleaner match though obviously the highlight reels look clearly better for the blake match.
I don't have the exact numbers handy, but I think both Pete and Fed had over 20 UFEs in their respective match. Definitely far from bad in a 3-setter, but not stellar, either. Not hard to imagine another guy on fire (including Pete or Fed himself) playing even better.
I'll gladly fess up to watching the Blake match more than the Ferrer one. :twisted: Seriously, not sure Fed ever smoked his BH with more authority. It was a masterclass.
I haven't matched the full matches in a long time myself, but I'm fairly confident that there's not much to choose between them for both Pete and Boris. Maybe '95 Becker is a hair better, will take a closer look next time.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
I think Roger faced the higher ranked players more often than Pete
N
Nathaniel_Near
Guest
...Recently watched the entire '95 and '99 Wimbledon finals and even compiled a detailed highlights for the '95 match once upon a time but my youtube account got suspended.
Sampras' level was very high in both matches and I think it was higher in the '99 final, not based on any sense of mythology or faulty memory but based on very recent re-evaluations.
Sampras' level was very high in both matches and I think it was higher in the '99 final, not based on any sense of mythology or faulty memory but based on very recent re-evaluations.
N
Nathaniel_Near
Guest
I also very clearly remember the YEC finals matches of 2006 and 2007 and found them both to be stellar performances, and remember enjoying the greater general variety and all-court style, finesse and balance that he displayed in the 2007 final. Federer's backhand wasn't as brutal in the '07 final but it was extremely controlling and he had Ferrer on a string. The Blake match was different, as he provides genuine stiff direct opposition to Federer's forehand with his own forehand, hence some errors.
N
Nathaniel_Near
Guest
Are you positive about that?
If so, that's a shame, especially considering the efforts made to compile the statistics.
abmk
Bionic Poster
yes.
See this thread from krosero
I've seen it in several matches myself.
Incorrect ATP stats (a survey)
abmk
Bionic Poster
I got this from krosero's thread :
"NBC credited Sampras with 58 winners and 22 unforced errors for the whole match."
Stats for 1999 Wimbledon final (Sampras-Agassi)
I have 26 UEs from fed in that blake match from this thread from 380pistol
"41 winners, 26 unforced errors, 11 aces"
Federer's High Water Mark (Top 10)
true ....
N
Nathaniel_Near
Guest
About this top 10 high water mark Federer thread, are these statistics just taken from archives of matches and stats compiled by the official... I dunno.. Wimbledon statisticians.
In my experience, Wimbledon is notorious for being extremely lenient for UE's compared to the other Slam events.
In my experience, Wimbledon is notorious for being extremely lenient for UE's compared to the other Slam events.
NonP
Legend
For the record I wasn't referring to your post in particular, and you may well be right about Pete's level in both matches. Anyway my broader point was that the younger Pete had a superior return game, which is supported by the stats.
I'm afraid so, but that doesn't mean all the compiled stats are inaccurate. For example the %s of service games held should be mostly accurate (though I've seen the ATP leave out a few in long 5-setters).
I do have some stats handy for Pete's and Fed's Wimby runs that I plan to share sometime, but unfortunately 1st- and 2nd-serve points won aren't among them (for obvious reasons). Maybe slice serve ace does, I'll ask him next time he shows up.
I do have a pretty good memory. :twisted:
NADALRECORD
Banned
Federer has lost in the 1st Round of Wimbledon THREE times.
Also, Sampras played when there were more great grasscourt players.
So clearly Sampras is the king. Its not even close.
Also, Sampras played when there were more great grasscourt players.
So clearly Sampras is the king. Its not even close.
N
Nathaniel_Near
Guest
I look forward to seeing them.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
This is just your opinion.
It is actually closer than you think.
Sampras has not won 5 in a row, has not reached 7 cons finals and 8 finals in total. These are facts.
What you said is just an opinion
NADALRECORD
Banned
What a hollow stat^
Losing in the 1st Round of Wimbledon THREE times is simply horrific and cannot be undone by how many consecutive you won (when the other guy won the same number as you overall). Plus as I said, Sampras played in an era of grasscourt specialists. The comparison is not even close.
Losing in the 1st Round of Wimbledon THREE times is simply horrific and cannot be undone by how many consecutive you won (when the other guy won the same number as you overall). Plus as I said, Sampras played in an era of grasscourt specialists. The comparison is not even close.
Start da Game
Hall of Fame
don't bother reasoning with fedtars......they are the blindest bunch in all history of sports, let alone tennis......don't be surprised if in the future they say that federer is better than kuerten at roland garros because he made 5 (4 consecutive) finals whereas kuerten just 3 (only 2 consecutive)......
Start da Game
Hall of Fame
sampras of 95 or even 99 would *****slap federer of any year and all his weak era pals......sampras's level at wimbledon was surreal......it is beyond stats and other petty things.......
he is not wimbledon GOAT for winning 7 wimbledons, he is wimbledon GOAT for the manner in which he did and what he brought to the court......the aura, the grace and aestheticism against genuine grass court players......how easily and smoothly he sent original grasscourters packing......not the junk you see today......
It was a great match between 2 players playing at a very high level, so I disagree.
It is ridiculous to judge a player's greatness based on their worst results. A player's greatness is measured based on what they have accomplished and it is an indisputable fact that Federer has accomplished more than Sampras at Wimbledon (although it is close).
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Yeah and your proof is?
They both played when none of them were in their prime and Federer won. This is a fact.
What you said about *****slapping is not even remotely close to a fact
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