So what does Djokovic have over Nadal?

[NeutralFan]

Insecure fans?

 

[Justshort]

Insecure fans?

Like those who after Sinner doping scandal are trying to involve Djokovic into it ?
Or those who constantly move goalposts for Djokovic, made Olympic gold as pinnacle of tennis player career and are now left with Slam H2H ?
Those who dismiss Djokovic injuries, operations, that go so far to ask for his medical record to be revealed in public
Those who are so desperate for GOAT title that they quote people who say "he is maybe statistical GOAT but..."
Those who are reposting mixing drinks at stands as something forbidden and sketchy
I could go on and on...

 

[thrust]

Nadal fans seem to think that everyone who watches him automatically will think he is an exciting player. There has never been much fun or aesthetic appreciation for me to watch him play because he has a just-get-it-in-play serve, hits the ball from well behind the baseline never on the rise, hits the ball with heavy topspin often far from the sidelines depending on the heavy spin to keep the opponent from hurting him, rarely changes angles, uses speed to keep the point neutral for many shots till his opponent coughs up a short ball that he can put away. He is the apotheosis of a defensive player who plays defensive tennis at the highest caliber for me and he is a beast on slow, high-bouncing clay which rewards this style - but not that great on low bouncing, fast surfaces.

Contrast him to Federer and Djokovic who have huge serves with pinpoint accuracy, take up aggressive return and baseline positions, often hit the ball early on the rise with access to more angles, hit closer to the sidelines, change angles more often, flatten out shots more often when needed and are more willing to come to net quicker (Fed throughout his career, Djokovic more so later). I would much rather watch this more offensive brand of tennis even though they are all power baseliners at the end of the day who depend on their superior movement to win them titles. They are more versatile on slow and fast, high and low bouncing surfaces compared to Nadal.

I would rather watch Nadal play than watch paint dry, but I would much rather watch Djokovic or Federer play than Nadal by a huge margin. I even prefer watching an in-form Djokovic over Federer because of his superior breath-taking returns and superior BH. But, also enjoyed Federer’s greater ability to disrupt rhythm with superior slices and so they are almost the same in terms of entertainment for me.M

I did enjoy Federer and Nadal‘s more gentlemanly behavior on court over Djokovic by far though as Djokovic behaves like a dick and has never been a good role model on court for kids. I could take my young kids to watch Nadal, but never took them to a Djokovic match as I didn’t want them to be influenced by his angry, uncontrolled fits - they saw him only when they were old enough to judge him appropriately.

Mostly, a ridiculous post, especially about Nadal's game being boring to watch and not allowing your children to see a Novak match because of his bad behavior on court. I do prefer Federer's game style but never found Rafa's or Novak's game boring. True, Novak can go off the rails, every now and then, but that is not often, and he is not the only player who does so.

 

[Phenomenal]

Nadal fans seem to think that everyone who watches him automatically will think he is an exciting player. There has never been much fun or aesthetic appreciation for me to watch him play because he has a just-get-it-in-play serve, hits the ball from well behind the baseline never on the rise, hits the ball with heavy topspin often far from the sidelines depending on the heavy spin to keep the opponent from hurting him, rarely changes angles, uses speed to keep the point neutral for many shots till his opponent coughs up a short ball that he can put away. He is the apotheosis of a defensive player who plays defensive tennis at the highest caliber for me and he is a beast on slow, high-bouncing clay which rewards this style - but not that great on low bouncing, fast surfaces.

Contrast him to Federer and Djokovic who have huge serves with pinpoint accuracy, take up aggressive return and baseline positions, often hit the ball early on the rise with access to more angles, hit closer to the sidelines, change angles more often, flatten out shots more often when needed and are more willing to come to net quicker (Fed throughout his career, Djokovic more so later). I would much rather watch this more offensive brand of tennis even though they are all power baseliners at the end of the day who depend on their superior movement to win them titles. They are more versatile on slow and fast, high and low bouncing surfaces compared to Nadal.

I would rather watch Nadal play than watch paint dry, but I would much rather watch Djokovic or Federer play than Nadal by a huge margin. I even prefer watching an in-form Djokovic over Federer because of his superior breath-taking returns and superior BH. But, also enjoyed Federer’s greater ability to disrupt rhythm with superior slices and so they are almost the same in terms of entertainment for me.

I did enjoy Federer and Nadal‘s more gentlemanly behavior on court over Djokovic by far though as Djokovic behaves like a dick and has never been a good role model on court for kids. I could take my young kids to watch Nadal, but never took them to a Djokovic match as I didn’t want them to be influenced by his angry, uncontrolled fits - they saw him only when they were old enough to judge him appropriately.

Really? You are biased towards Nadal. Idk how many Nadal matches you have watched. I get that you prefer Djokovic style more. Djokovic definitely takes the ball very early more than Nadal but you say random things that are just myths about Nadal.
Nadal toys with the opponents with his forehand changing angles taking the ball early moving side to side.

How do you think Nadal is relevant at the top after 2016 with worse movement?

Nadal crushes opponents on Serve+1 and 0-4 shots. Thats how he dominated FO later years. Even on clay Djokovic probably wins more or similiar amount of points against Nadal on longer rallies. But Nadal just dominates shorter rallies with his FH. Takes the ball early on forehand for long time but even more so since 2017.(See RG 2022, Rome 2019, RG 2014 Nadal not agressive??) Nadal likely has the most controlled agression with his offensive FH which is consistent and deadly.

Nadal serves was probably never consistently good. But it wasn't bad not even average. Those who say he has bad serve or not improved are also just myths. He is least dependent to serve since his baseline game is so strong.

Check Nadal matches from 2010, 2012, 2013, 2017 2019 his serve was great in many seasons. USO 2017 -2019.
You can see how agressive Nadal is from earlier days. He is more passive on HC but if you watched Wimbledon 07-08 and 2018 he is very agressive.

About excitement part it's relative but who makes&hits better passing shots than Nadal? reacting to drop shots, punishing the slices no need to mention all the qualities of Nadal


Just want to have fair discussion really curious how you concluded those?

 

[SonnyT]

Nadal obtained two thirds of his slams at RG.

 

[EdMcMush]

weeks at 1, world tour finals, grand slams, masters, titles, ye 1. h2h.

 

[Daniel Andrade]

Nadal fans seem to think that everyone who watches him automatically will think he is an exciting player. There has never been much fun or aesthetic appreciation for me to watch him play because he has a just-get-it-in-play serve, hits the ball from well behind the baseline never on the rise, hits the ball with heavy topspin often far from the sidelines depending on the heavy spin to keep the opponent from hurting him, rarely changes angles, uses speed to keep the point neutral for many shots till his opponent coughs up a short ball that he can put away. He is the apotheosis of a defensive player who plays defensive tennis at the highest caliber for me and he is a beast on slow, high-bouncing clay which rewards this style - but not that great on low bouncing, fast surfaces.

Contrast him to Federer and Djokovic who have huge serves with pinpoint accuracy, take up aggressive return and baseline positions, often hit the ball early on the rise with access to more angles, hit closer to the sidelines, change angles more often, flatten out shots more often when needed and are more willing to come to net quicker (Fed throughout his career, Djokovic more so later). I would much rather watch this more offensive brand of tennis even though they are all power baseliners at the end of the day who depend on their superior movement to win them titles. They are more versatile on slow and fast, high and low bouncing surfaces compared to Nadal.

I would rather watch Nadal play than watch paint dry, but I would much rather watch Djokovic or Federer play than Nadal by a huge margin. I even prefer watching an in-form Djokovic over Federer because of his superior breath-taking returns and superior BH. But, also enjoyed Federer’s greater ability to disrupt rhythm with superior slices and so they are almost the same in terms of entertainment for me.

I did enjoy Federer and Nadal‘s more gentlemanly behavior on court over Djokovic by far though as Djokovic behaves like a dick and has never been a good role model on court for kids. I could take my young kids to watch Nadal, but never took them to a Djokovic match as I didn’t want them to be influenced by his angry, uncontrolled fits - they saw him only when they were old enough to judge him appropriately.

Djokovic is tremendous player. But he's not the apotheosis of attacking tennis.

 

[GoatNo1]

all main all surfaces records and everything outside of clay

 

[nolefam_2024]

Djokovic is tremendous player. But he's not the apotheosis of attacking tennis.

Neither nole nor rafa

Rally agression (bigger number is more attacking tennis)

Isner +68
Federer +13
Alcaraz +7
Kyrgios +5
Tsitsipas -20
Sinner -22
Zverev -46
Djokovic -48
Murray -65
Nadal -68
Medvedev -86

Federer goes into attack mode like servebots.

Alcaraz is anamoly because he plays high risk game.

Djokovic is not attacking in rallies but Nadal and Murray are worse.

 

[Daniel Andrade]

Neither nole nor rafa

Rally agression (bigger number is more attacking tennis)

Isner +68
Federer +13
Alcaraz +7
Kyrgios +5
Tsitsipas -20
Sinner -22
Zverev -46
Djokovic -48
Murray -65
Nadal -68
Medvedev -86

Federer goes into attack mode like servebots.

Alcaraz is anamoly because he plays high risk game.

Djokovic is not attacking in rallies but Nadal and Murray are worse.

Can you explain those numbers and where they came from?

 

[Neptune]

Not in the same tier.

Career​	Overall​	vs Top10​	T10 Match Weight​	T10 Win Weight​	vs Top5​	T5 Match Weight​	T5 Win Weight​
Nole​	1339 (1118-221) 83.50%​	373 (258-115) 69.17%​	27.86%​	23.08%​	202 (123-79) 60.89%​	15.09%​	11.00%​
Fed​	1526 (1251-275) 81.98%​	347 (224-123) 64.55%​	22.74%​	17.91%​	179 (104-75) 58.10%​	11.73%​	8.31%​
Rafa​	1307 (1080-227) 82.63%​	291 (186-105) 63.92%​	22.26%​	17.22%​	156 (93-63) 59.62%​	11.94%​	8.61%​

Main Surface​	Overall​	vs Top10​	T10 Match Weight​	T10 Win Weight​	vs Top5​	T5 Match Weight​	T5 Win Weight​
Nole​	831 (703-128) 84.60%​	257 (190-67) 73.93%​	30.93%​	27.03%​	134 (89-45) 66.42%​	16.13%​	12.66%​
Fed​	939 (783-156) 83.39%​	240 (162-78) 67.50%​	25.56%​	20.69%​	120 (75-45) 62.50%​	12.78%​	9.58%​
Rafa​	668 (518-150) 77.54%​	150 (75-75) 50.00%​	22.46%​	14.48%​	73 (30-43) 41.10%​	10.93%​	5.79%​

Minor Surface​	Overall​	vs Top10​	T10 Match Weight​	T10 Win Weight​	vs Top5​	T5 Match Weight​	T5 Win Weight​
Nole​	355 (286-69) 80.56%​	88 (51-37) 57.95%​	24.79%​	17.83%​	54 (28-26) 51.85%​	15.21%​	9.79%​
Fed​	297 (226-71) 76.09%​	61 (32-29) 52.46%​	20.54%​	14.16%​	39 (18-21) 46.15%​	13.13%​	7.96%​
Rafa​	535 (484-51) 90.47%​	128 (102-26) 79.69%​	23.93%​	21.07%​	73 (57-16) 78.08%​	13.64%​	11.78%​

 

[Martin J]

Marginally better hairline and several titles more at a meaningless exo.

 

[RS]

Lacks Holyfield's workrate against Bowe in fight 2.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Can you explain those numbers and where they came from?

These numbers come from project Tennis abstract website has started for charting matches. They go in depth with every stroke, who hit winner or error (forced then opponent gets the nod) etc. and on which stoke

Tennis Abstract: Match Charting Project: Men's Tactics Leaders: Career

Match Charting Project Tactics Stats: Glossary – Heavy Topspin

• RallyAgg – Rally Aggression Score. A variation of Aggression Score, a stat invented by MCP contributor Lowell West. At its simplest, any member of this family of aggression metrics is the percentage of shots that end the point–winners, unforced errors, and shots that induce forced errors. RallyAgg excludes serves and is a bit more complex, following the logic that I outlined for Return Aggression by separating winners from unforced errors. For each match, the player’s unforced error rate and winner rate are normalized relative to tour average and expressed in standard deviations above or below the mean. RallyAgg is the average of those two numbers, multiplied by 100 for the sake of readability. The higher the score, the more aggressive the player. Tour average is zero.

Rally aggression excludes serve so its most impressive to see what players do after serve.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

4 slams in a row (Joint-record w/ Rod Laver)

Eternally wrong. Laver won the Grand Slam, and that is only achieved by winning the annualy framed four majors, not stringing majors across years. Laver is only matched by the other Grand Slam winning, GOAT players...and Djokovic is not among their number.

 

[NoleFam]

My top things Djo has over Nadal

• Roid rage shirt ripping
• Inferiority complex
• Celebrity affair scandal
• Throat punching a lines-woman

My fave was bagging on absolute GOAT Simone Biles about pressure, then crying his way out of the Olympics and ruing her countrywoman's chance of a medal in mixed as he sulked his fragile ego.

Annnnd, his special sauce later years push for respect he will never earn.

I mean, Nadal is sports legend, not just a tennis GOAT. Confirmed in the sporting universe.

He never said anything about Biles but shows how the media twists things to suit their narrative, and how uninformed sheep flock to it. Your tears are very apparent in this post considering most of this is embellishments of your own inagination. Lol.

 

[nolefam_2024]

He never said anything about Biles but shows how the media twists things to suit their narrative, and how uninformed sheep flock to it. You tears are very apparent in this post. Lol.

True

American media and black twitter went gung ho when he said pressure is priviledge

 

[NoleFam]

True

American media and black twitter went gung ho when he said pressure is priviledge

It's an old Billie Jean King quote and he was talking about how he deals with pressure considering what he was going for (won 1st 3 Slams of the year, CYGS and golden Slam was on the cards) but of course mainstream media twisted it to make him look bad. I wouldn't say just black Twitter but everyone had a go at him over something that was a lie. Cosmic justice in how he destroyed every major record known to man to p*ss these people off even more.

 

[RS]

NoleFam I think it's to troll NoleFans lol

 

[nolefam_2024]

It's an old Billie Jean King quote and he was talking about how he deals with pressure considering what he was going for (won 1st 3 Slams of the year, CYGS and golden Slam was on the cards) but of course mainstream media twisted it to make him look bad. Cosmic justice in how he destroyed every major record known to man to p*ss these people off even more.

Literally written inside Arthur Ashe stadium

It would be dumb to be a "tennis fan" and get enraged

 

[ChaelAZ]

He never said anything about Biles but shows how the media twists things to suit their narrative, and how uninformed sheep flock to it. You tears are very apparent in this post comsidering most of this is embellishments of your own inagination. Lol.

Novak was asked directly about Simone:

“Novak, you would've heard about Simona Biles yesterday talking about mental health and the pressure of performing. You are in this position going for the golden slam, you know, there is no more pressure on a tennis player than you currently. Can you speak a bit about it?”

So yeah, he was trying to give advice about handling pressure, in light of what ensued.

 

[NoleFam]

Novak was asked directly about Simone:


So yeah, he was trying to give advice about handling pressure, in light of what ensued.

He wasn't giving her advice but talking about himself as the original AP article outlines, which was all about him.

Djokovic says 'pressure is a privilege' that he can handle

Novak Djokovic says “pressure is a privilege” with the topic of athletes’ mental health and pressure being discussed at the Olympics.

apnews.com

Keep lying to yourself though and we can see how much pain you are in because he's superior to Nadal.

 

[GabeT]

My top things Djo has over Nadal

• Roid rage shirt ripping
• Inferiority complex
• Celebrity affair scandal
• Throat punching a lines-woman

My fave was bagging on absolute GOAT Simone Biles about pressure, then crying his way out of the Olympics and ruing her countrywoman's chance of a medal in mixed as he sulked his fragile ego.

Annnnd, his special sauce later years push for respect he will never earn.

I mean, Nadal is sports legend, not just a tennis GOAT. Confirmed in the sporting universe.

Lots of trolling and coping and then outright lying about what happened with Biles

 

[Justshort]

My top things Djo has over Nadal

• Roid rage shirt ripping
• Inferiority complex
• Celebrity affair scandal
• Throat punching a lines-woman

My fave was bagging on absolute GOAT Simone Biles about pressure, then crying his way out of the Olympics and ruing her countrywoman's chance of a medal in mixed as he sulked his fragile ego.

Annnnd, his special sauce later years push for respect he will never earn.

I mean, Nadal is sports legend, not just a tennis GOAT. Confirmed in the sporting universe.

You actually involved your time and energy for this ? Wow to this cringe

 

[Neptune]

You actually involved your time and energy for this ? Wow to this cringe

Devoted haters are in an unique league, lol.

 

[Hurting Elbow]

Now, if you wish to dispute this, you can! Just know that stats don’t lie.

Novak has better feet, hips and probably better knees as well

 

[Biotic]

Everything.

But i'm sure for every page of Djoko's records there's a Nadal related record footnote.

 

[socallefty]

Djokovic is tremendous player. But he's not the apotheosis of attacking tennis.

Only in the gut era I liked very offensive players like Sampras because big-serving net players could do well. With poly I like watching a balance of offense and defense like Federer and Djokovic. The most offensive players are servebots these days and they are not fun to watch. If you play the net a lot to be offensive in the poly era like Cressy, M Zverev or Feliciano Lopez, you just get passed a lot and don’t reach elite levels.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Only in the gut era I liked very offensive players like Sampras. With poly I like watching a balance of offense and defense like Federer and Djokovic. The most offensive players are servebots these days and they are not fun to watch. If you play the net a lot to be offensive in the poly era like Cressy, M Zverev or Feliciano Lopez, you just get passed a lot and don’t reach elite levels.

That's not remotely true.
Alcaraz who is almost a tiny by height is as aggressive as Federer once the rally starts.
Djokovic is not that aggressive.