So why aren't red clay courts built more in the US?

[bluetrain4]

I get why people think red clay is better than Har-Tru. But, I think we shoul give Har-Tru some credit. It is much better on the body and if it is maintained with a decent top layer, is slower and enables more deliberate play.

Basically I'm saying that Har-Tru is better than no clay at all.

 

[peter]

There are three main factors as to why you don't see more green Har-Tru courts in Europe; tradition, cost, and knowledge. In no way am I going to say that Har-Tru is any better than red clay, but at the same time, there is no way it is not as good either.
...
What tennis court owners found was that Har-Tru was easier to maintain, easier to source, more consistent from bag to bag, and dried much quicker after a rain than red clay or En-tout-cas.

As a guy that regularly play on both Har-Tru courts (one of the clubs have four of them - the other two big clubs have each four red clay courts - I play on them all - in addition two the two red clay courts near where I live and two more red clay courts at another club) I've seen both the pros and the cons with Har-Tru vs classical "red clay".

It's true what you say - here in Sweden Har-Tru has typically been twice as expensive as red clay which can be a problem for clubs with limited budgets.

It's also true that it dries up quicker (but that has seldom been a problem). It's also easier/quicker to prepare each spring after the winter break. Typically half the time needs to be spent on the courts before you can play on them.

Playing on Har-Tru is a bit different though. You definitely slide much better/easier on traditional red clay. On Har-Tru you tend to stop much quicker. Ball bounce and such is not much different though.

I personally think it's easier to see the ball on a red clay court though. The green/gray color of Har-Tru can make it difficult to see the ball sometime.

 

[luckyboy1300]

FYI - The US Open was held on clay for three years.

http://www.clickpress.com/releases/Detailed/12830005cp.shtml

The West Side Tennis Club

Home to the US Open until 1977, The West Side Tennis Club hosted the US Open on grass until 1974 and the only three years the event was held on clay (1975-77). The US Open became a hard court event when it moved to the USTA National Tennis Center in 1978. The West Side Tennis Club was also the home to the US Championships until 1990.

well jimmy connors was the only player to win the us open on 3 different surfaces: grass, clay and deco turf

 

[peter]

Just a thought - IMHO - brick is actually a pretty expensive building material now days. At least here in VA, very few houses are made of real brick - just sticks, compressed cardboard, and plastic siding with maybe one side bricked in for decoration.

When I lived in Florida, most of those houses were cinder block - I think cinder block is probably cheaper and easier to lay down.

Taking that into consideration, it may just be cheaper to use crushed granite (hard-tru) which can just be mined, than having to actually make and process red brick for courts.

It doesn't have to be crushed bricks though. There are other variants of "red clay". Here in Sweden there is a variant (very common, and cheaper than the crushed bricks variant) made from the left over piles of "alum shale" (which the Swedish Navy created during the second world war when they produced oil for the ships (as a backup incase trouble would come our way)) that is then crushed. Slightly less red than the real variant, but works just as well.

ALUM SHALE
Domain: Mining

Definition: An argillaceous, often carbonaceous, rock impregnated with alum, originally containing iron sulfide (pyrite, marcasite) which, when decomposed, formed sulfuric acid that reacted with the aluminous and potassic materials of the rock to produce aluminum sulfates.

 

[peter]

Red clay courts are expensive to install compared to hardcourts (and even green clay courts).

And, they need a lot of maintentance (rolling, watering, brushing the lines, etc.)

The cost and maintenance is the reason that a lot of park districts and other public entities don's install clay.

Not 100% true. The cost of creating/installing a red clay court (here in Sweden) is typically half the price compared to a hard court.

But I do agree that the main reason park districts/public entities doesn't build them is the maintenance needed. It's not _that_ big though - the bulk of it is done during the beginning of the outdoor season when you prepare them after the winter (spread out new "clay", water, compress and such). A hardcourt is much easier to maintain.

However, I don't think one should say that it requires a lot of maintenance (after that initial stuff is done). We have two half-public clay courts where I live (they are in theory operated by a club, but in practice it's us neighbors that run it). All players "rake" (use a brush actually) the court after playing and brush he lines clean of clay and then water them (often before you play on them). We don't even have an automatic watering system (around here the regular rains typically take care of that - it's just occasionally that we have to water them down manually

 

[JRstriker12]

It doesn't have to be crushed bricks though. There are other variants of "red clay". Here in Sweden there is a variant (very common, and cheaper than the crushed bricks variant) made from the left over piles of "alum shale" (which the Swedish Navy created during the second world war when they produced oil for the ships (as a backup incase trouble would come our way)) that is then crushed. Slightly less red than the real variant, but works just as well.

Interesting.

I wonder if they have much alum shale here in the US.

 

[BOZO]

to play on clay is not american.

This thread makes me love this forum more & more with the OP and the answers except the one as above..

 

[tenis]

Well, red clay court plays VERY different than har-thru, and it will never be common in US, just becouse people here don't care maintain it after play, mostly is hard for them even bring used towel back to the club...
Also, after winter clay court needs a lot of care.

 

[The balls in your court.]

It doesn't have to be crushed bricks though. There are other variants of "red clay". Here in Sweden there is a variant (very common, and cheaper than the crushed bricks variant) made from the left over piles of "alum shale" (which the Swedish Navy created during the second world war when they produced oil for the ships (as a backup incase trouble would come our way)) that is then crushed. Slightly less red than the real variant, but works just as well.

Actually crushed brick is only used in France and Northern Europe. In Spain and warmer climates a dusty material is used instead. In fact if you play on red clay in the USA it is this type of clay you will see. I have never seen crushed brick in the USA anywhere....its always the dusty type of red clay.

Basically I'm saying that Har-Tru is better than no clay at all.

Not true. HARTRU SUUUUCKS INDOORS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is the most dangerous thing I have ever seen and most clubs should be sued for using it.

Its like playing on an iceskating rink. there is virtually no Hartru on the ground so you are basically playing on cement with a tiny tiny layer of little stones on it. You will just go flying.

There is absolutely nothing soft about it and when you fall you break bones.

Indoor har tru is the biggest gimmick I have ever seen. people think they are playing on a soft surface but they are actually playing on slippery concrete.

I think the reason is that most clubs are just to cheap to put the right amount of Hartru out in the winter. In the summer outdoors however, they must resurface every season so that there is a think amount of hartru to play on. It does work outdoors.

If you dont believe me then the next time you play on hartru just touch the ground. You will see that its merely concrete. its gray in color from the dirt but dont be fooled....you are playing on stone.

 

[beedlejuice22]

There are a lot of HAr-Ttru courts here but they will almost never be in a public park. You will almost always have to join a country club to play on Har-Tru which can be expensive. The maintenance is too much to put them in a public park.

 

[Z-Man]

Har-Tru that is properly maintained slides great! It helps if it is watered from underneath, but the most important thing is that the clay is replaced regularly. Over time, the grains get worn down, and it clumps together, making it harder to slide. Our local courts are in excellent shape, and I can slide 8-10 feet if I need to.

Maybe it's a regional thing, but here in Georgia, there are lots of public clay (Har-Tru) courts. Columbus, GA has a huge facility with a zillion of them. I live in a small town, and we are lucky to have a great public facility with 6 clay courts, and we're getting 4 more later this year.

With all of the green clay in the southeast, I don't know why American pros aren't better on it. I think it must be the way they are coached, or maybe they all attend academies with hardcourts. High School tennis is always played on hardcourts.

I'm a huge Har-Tru fan. I hate to play on anything else.

 

[The balls in your court.]

There are a lot of HAr-Ttru courts here but they will almost never be in a public park. You will almost always have to join a country club to play on Har-Tru which can be expensive. The maintenance is too much to put them in a public park.

not where I live . In westchester ny and ct there are a ton of public clay courts. And in manhattan the public courts at central par are all clay.

 

[jmsx521]

Some Americans have an inherent fear of anything labeled RED.

Some Americans also have a fear of good things in general like free Medical Care and Red Clay Court Tennis.

That's pretty good!

Don't bring your political agenda into this. There are major problems with "free" health care and most people who have a brain understand that.

Tell that to the many who need to get medical attention ASAP, but can't afford to do so because of the ridiculous cost.

 

[johnny ballgame]

Not red clay....it was held on har tru...the cheap imitation crap.

There is nothing imitation about har-tru. Har-tru is crushed rock while "red clay" is crushed brick. But that's just the top layer. They are both clay underneath the top layer.

Anyway, other posters are correct that red clay is more expensive to build and maintain in the US than har-tru. Also, a somewhat rainy climate is actually better for clay. If it's too hot and dry clay courts can crack up without constant watering. That's why clay is rare in the western US and fairly common in the eastern US.

 

[Z-Man]

Tell that to the many who need to get medical attention ASAP, but can't afford to do so because of the ridiculous cost.

Oh, there's a place. It's called the emergency room.

 

[Melissa]

Quote:
Originally Posted by rrhstennis View Post
Don't bring your political agenda into this. There are major problems with "free" health care and most people who have a brain understand that.

Sounds like someone who makes a living selling
hospitalization/medical insurance.

 

[Melissa]

I spend two hours a day six days a week year round on har tru courts and I love them.

 

[dubsplayer]

not where I live . In westchester ny and ct there are a ton of public clay courts. And in manhattan the public courts at central par are all clay.

There are red clay courts at the Harbor Island Tennis Club in Mamaroneck and in Albany we have red clay courts in a public city park - you just have to pay to use them (it's a non profit tennis club.)

And with all due respect to the guy from Har-tru I'd rather play on a hard court then that. I hate playing on har-tru.

 

[Cyclone]

Quote:
Originally Posted by rrhstennis View Post
Don't bring your political agenda into this. There are major problems with "free" health care and most people who have a brain understand that.

Sounds like someone who makes a living selling
hospitalization/medical insurance.

the thing about free health care is that it is not free. while i do not profess to know enough about the issue to have a concrete opinion either way, the money to fund that "free" health care would come out of our pockets in the form of taxes. it's one thing to trumpet a cause in the name of fairness, nobility, and justice, but it's another thing to implement it. another thing to consider is that if doctor's salaries go down (as usually happens upon implementation of a socialized medicine-type plan), the general quality of care will also drop.
it is important to make sure that ideas like this are analyzed thoroughly, and not just adhered to because they sound good.

 

[MariaS]

Just heard Bollettieri interviewed and he says we need clay (green will do) courts here in the US so our kids learn how to play on them. He says it's a very different physical and mental game. When he says "green" does he mean har-tru? That's greenish.

 

[ojingoh]

Green clay in the USA = Har-Tru.

 

[Z-Man]

the thing about free health care is that it is not free. while i do not profess to know enough about the issue to have a concrete opinion either way, the money to fund that "free" health care would come out of our pockets in the form of taxes. it's one thing to trumpet a cause in the name of fairness, nobility, and justice, but it's another thing to implement it. another thing to consider is that if doctor's salaries go down (as usually happens upon implementation of a socialized medicine-type plan), the general quality of care will also drop.
it is important to make sure that ideas like this are analyzed thoroughly, and not just adhered to because they sound good.

Yep, it's kind of like demanding "free" public clay courts. The courts aren't going to sweep themselves, are they?

 

[The balls in your court.]

There are red clay courts at the Harbor Island Tennis Club in Mamaroneck and in Albany we have red clay courts in a public city park - you just have to pay to use them (it's a non profit tennis club.)

And with all due respect to the guy from Har-tru I'd rather play on a hard court then that. I hate playing on har-tru.

True...there are also red clay courts at Tennisport in NYC. But did you know the only real red clay courts I ever heard of are here in the USA?

The turth is that the FO does not even have real red clay courts!!!

We all know what clay is...there is ZERO CLAY at the FO. Its a mixture of crushed brick and dirt and hartru is a mixture of some other stone and some crap.....but they both have ZERO CLAY.

We all know what clay is right? Its like play dough. Thats exactly what clay courts were played on!!! There was no brick or anything like that. It was played on real clay like what one sculpts with.

The problem was that it cracks and takes forever to dry....because clay acts like a sponge.So they came out with the pulverized brick version or the dusty version s in warer climates. The color was also red and so the name "red Clay" stuck. But in fact its really imitation "red clay". There is zero clay on those courts!

The only courts I know of with real red clay is here in NY at the Mohonk Mountain Lodge in new Paltz.
The court is from 1910 was a blast to play on. I have never seen anything quite that slow and there is zero sliding!!! And zero to sweep. http://www.mohonk.com/recreation/tennis.cfm

Now I am sure that there must be other real red clay courts somewhere in the world but these are the only ones that I know of.

Finally I also would rather play on a hard tru court rather than the on an INDOOR hartru court...it just does not work indoors. Its like an ice skating rink. Its basically a slippery hard court.

 

[The balls in your court.]

oops......................................just see above

 

[PlayTheClay]

Man - If I could find a club in my area with hard-tru courts. I would go all the time. My hips cannot last too many more hardcourt seasons.

Where do you live Nellie? Let me know and I will get you a list of Har-Tru courts close to you.

 

[cmb]

Har-Tru that is properly maintained slides great! It helps if it is watered from underneath, but the most important thing is that the clay is replaced regularly. Over time, the grains get worn down, and it clumps together, making it harder to slide. Our local courts are in excellent shape, and I can slide 8-10 feet if I need to.

Maybe it's a regional thing, but here in Georgia, there are lots of public clay (Har-Tru) courts. Columbus, GA has a huge facility with a zillion of them. I live in a small town, and we are lucky to have a great public facility with 6 clay courts, and we're getting 4 more later this year.

With all of the green clay in the southeast, I don't know why American pros aren't better on it. I think it must be the way they are coached, or maybe they all attend academies with hardcourts. High School tennis is always played on hardcourts.

I'm a huge Har-Tru fan. I hate to play on anything else.

the balls are different in europe, combine the difference in the balls and the clay, and thats the reason americans struggle

 

[Lotto]

Well, actually lads, I was on holidays in Spain two years ago at Easter and it rained for like 4 days in a row, heavy heavy rain, heavier then the rain in Ireland it was so bad! Anyway, the Red Clay actually was playable on after bout 6 hours after torrential and I mean torrential rain. So, an average bit of rain isn't going to damage them. I'm no expert though but just lending what I can.

 

[LafayetteHitter]

I wish there was a list of all the red clay courts in the US. I am in Louisiana and have had a hard time finding any here.

 

[FloridaAG]

Har-Tru courts are all over Florida. I play at Sunrise a lot that has lots of them - very nice indeed. Most of the facilities here that are devoted to tennis have har-tru courts. We have 4 hard courts where i live so I also play on those.

Drak's club in Lauderdale has 23 Har Tru courts, I think - which is the most that I have seen around.

 

[merwy]

what happens when it rains ? hard courts can dry quickly but the red clay courts would probably turn into mud courts unless they are covered like at roland garros.

Fortunately it never rains in Europe