So you think Nadal plays fair?

prostaff18 said:
They should get two warnings then after that it should be a fault on that serve.
Why have rules if they aren't enforced? The umpire should have a clock and it should start when the previous point ends. The timer should stop when the player starts his/her service motion. There should be a buzzer that rings automatically when the time has expired. The umpire should be in charge of turning off the buzzer once the player has started their motion. Also the returner should have to play at the servers pace of play. If the server is ready to serve he should serve regardless of the returner and if they are ready. I think that in the event of an injury the game must be finished before any injury can be treated. If you can’t play then you must forfeit the game and get medical attention.
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I thought what you stated above was the rules for tennis...that the time starts when the point stops...and the time stops when your service motion starts...again, playing by the servers pace is how it should be...it must be joy playing against Nadal as you can go off...read a couple of pages of a book and decide what to eat for dinner!!

I know Sampras when facing breakpoints would take a little longer...but he was still within the 20 second rule...unfortunately...Nadal is not near that....he has cut down the time but still takes longer...if he were to get penalised for always going over the 20 seconds then most of his matches would be over very quickly!!

Hopefully, the rules will start being enforced and they will not be, and i quote from the pirates of the caribbean..with a slight amendment 'the time between points is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules' ....maybe Nadal is playing or seeing how far he can go before they clamp down on this....
 
This is an eloquent and excellent analysis of the situation. Although I was previously annoyed by Nadal's gamesmanship, I didn't think about it as much as this. Seen from that perspective -- that it is harming the professions of other athletes who built their gameplan around following the rules -- it is indeed gravely serious, and should be treated as such.

As for criticisms of, what about long rallies? They can extend the time allowed if the players had a very long rally. Maybe. However, I think even that may be unfair: maybe one player plays the rally in a more energy-efficient way than the other. Why should the energy-inefficient player be rewarded for his inefficiency?

Also, how about this...after a long long rally, maybe both players are tired. So they can agree, by their positioning, on whether to extend the time between the point. Basically, if by the end of the 20 seconds, neither player comes to the line -- neither the server nor the receiver -- then they've mutually agreed to extend the time between the point.

Or maybe a system where one can come to the line, just to indicate he's ready, but send a signal saying that he'd be willing to wait if the other player wants more time. Of course, they can also just ask eachother.

This would seem perfectly fair to me.

And as for enforcement, I suggest a few warnings, and then you start doing point-penalties. So what if it's on the match-point? In football, penalties can cost you a game, and the rules are enforced pretty strictly. Why not also in tennis? Why should players be able to get away with breaking the rules?

Grimjack said:
This is exactly the point, and why this preferential treatment of Nadal is so significant.

Nadal's game is FAR more energy-inefficient than any other player's out there. He runs down everything, does it from so far back that he has to move greater distances as well, and bases his whole game on running, running, and more running.

Is 20 seconds enough to recover between points, if you play like this? Probably not. Is it fair? Is it FAIR??? It's as fair as the rule that says you have to use a racquet, or toss the ball before the serve. It's one of the rules of tennis, and just as the game you develop should not be allowed to be based on firing serves out of a cannon, or throwing your racquet at the opponent, so likewise the game you develop should not be allowed to be based on resting two or three times longer between points than other players typically do. Nadal developed a game that necessiatates preferential treatment. You don't see how that's an unfair advantage gained at the expense of the rules that all other players must play by?

The only even remotely reasonable counter-argument is that if Nadal is on court, wasting time, then his opponents get to rest just as much, right? Except they don't have games that are based around getting illegal amounts of rest. At the end of 20 seconds, they are ready to play at 100% again, and the additional 30 seconds doesn't benefit them. Nadal, if forced to play by the rules that all these other players built their games around, could only play each point at a less-than-100% efficiency. (And that % would get worse as a match wore on.) But since he built an illegal gameplan based upon a stretching of the rules he assumed he'd be granted, he is able to take his game places that many other players can't compete with (especially on gruelling claycourts). Very reasonably, they didn't spend their entire lives building games that necessitated (or could take advantage of) minute-long rests between points. When confronted with somebody who does play like this, they are facing a rule violation that compromises their entire careers'-worth of preparation.

Every other player had to learn -- as part of learning how to become a pro -- how to conserve energy; how to build a game that didn't leave them exhausted after a set and a half. They had to learn how to play by the rules. Nadal didn't bother, and got away with it. Now, the net result is that the rules are different for him than for any other player, and 100% to his benefit, and to the detriment of players who planned their whole careers around the rules of tennis.

And you really wonder why people and players complain? Make him play next year's French at 20-second intervals like everybody else, and he doesn't get past the 4th round. He's never done it in his life. Why believe that he could suddenly play at twice the pace?

Nadal = fraud.
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Nope. Sorry. No time-outs because you ate a hoagie for lunch and you're winded.

You're a top pro making millions. Suck it up and serve within the time limit. I'd be fine with changing the rule to be 25 seconds. Just a little grace period in case the wind blows your toss and you have to catch.
 
I was at his Wimbledon Quarter Final against Nieminen and by the end of the 2nd set I was getting pretty frustrated with him. He's a good player who doesn't need to break the sporting code, it shows a lack of respect to his opponent imo when he blatantly breaks the rules and rubs it in their face with a stupid VAMOS!!!

People near the front made a few audible comments about his speed between points in a joking way but it was just very annoying. When Gerry Armstrong had a word with him before a match at Queens Rafa wasn't happy at all, he looked like he was being picked on when he is quite clearly breaking the rules. He needs to learn that just because he is #2 doesn't mean he should get preferential treatment when it comes to etiquette.
 
Reading one of the posts, I like the idea about penalizing too much time taken on serve by: (1) Warning; (2) Fault; (3) Point. Maybe I'd add 1 more warning in there, but good idea.

And as for the returning stalling, do a similar thing: (1) Warning; (2) 2nd warning; (3) Fault -- the server gets one extra opportunity to serve (e.g., "two first serves"); (4) Point penalty.

Seems fair to me.

Grimjack's post was a very eloquent analysis of the situation. There are many players who built their games around following the rules. Why should their entire careers be penalized, because there are players who built their game around not following the rules? Why should those who's game revolves around not following the rules be rewarded?
 
oh yea, and as for unfairly rushing the game, maybe make it so that the server has to wait 10s before serving, if the returning isn't read yto receive before then. The rules say that the returner is to play at the pace of the server.
 
dh003i said:
oh yea, and as for unfairly rushing the game, maybe make it so that the server has to wait 10s before serving, if the returning isn't read yto receive before then. The rules say that the returner is to play at the pace of the server.
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Yeah I agree. If you are going to punish someone for waiting too long than you should penalize for playing too fast as well. I didn't realize these little things bothered people so much. It never bothers me but I guess if you consciously think about than I guess it can bother you.
 
Leave it to the stupid writers of TENNIS magazine to come up with this one. I mean this is the same magazine that put Sampras at #1 above Navratilova and Graf for the top 40 tennis players in the open era.

So are the writers that hurting for a story, that they actually sit there counting the seconds of a match to see how many times Nadal went over the 20 second mark? Boy this magazine really is getting more and more pathetic.

I didn't think they could top the stupidity of how they ranked the top 40 players of the open era, but they certainly have and reached a new low.

Jukka
 
jukka,

Here's a bit of harsh reality for you: Sampras is above Navratilova and Gra for top 40 tennis players of the Open Era because he's better than either of them. In short, because he's a man.

You can take Navratilova or Graf at their prime, and pit her against Pete out of his prime, an end-of-his-career Pete, and Pete's going to blow them off the court. It wouldn't even be close.

Men on the senior tour could beat women in the WTA.

So if you're talking about "Who's the best", you always have to put the great men ahead of the great women. Sorry, that's just reality. That means I'd put, say, Kuerten or Safin above Graf.

Now, if you're talking about who was the most dominant in their tour, and you want to artificially level the men and women to compensate for the fact that men are just better at sports than women, then maybe you can put Graf ahead of some of the great male players. But not unless you do that.
 
For anyone interested in having a copy of the Official ITF Rules of Tennis

Rule 29 Section A - Speaks to this topic at hand. As I read through this, it also reminded me that there is a Rule standing where upon Change Over, there is to be no rest at all. However, in the past ten years, it is quite usual for Players to stop at their chairs, grab a quick drink and towel off, without any reprimand from the Chair Umpire. So why are we not discussing this as well ?
 
About 20 seconds rule,
it seems that they use the time when the chair calls the score as the end of the point instead of the actual end of the point in terms of the real play.
So, there's a loophole for each chair to apply the rule quite differently (even if the rule were to be enforced).
For example, the chair can be quite lenient & go around the rule by not calling the score immediately after the point is over, or s/he can be quite strict.

About playing to server's pace,
it really bothers me when the so called analysts on tv bring this up as soon as their favorites have to wait a tiny bit for the receiver. :rolleyes:
The server's pace is supposed to be reasonable; at least 12 seconds or so should be allowed for the receiver after the score is called, and the pace cannot be suddenly changed to gain the advantage, just as stalling is not allowed to gain any advantage. So, though the server may be fitter than the receiver after a long point, he cannot serve right away or earlier than his usual pace during the match.

I don't like rushing the opponents as much as stalling. Playing pace should not be manipulated beyond the reasonable boundary specified in the rule to gain advantage!
 
dh003i said:
jukka,

Here's a bit of harsh reality for you: Sampras is above Navratilova and Gra for top 40 tennis players of the Open Era because he's better than either of them. In short, because he's a man.

You can take Navratilova or Graf at their prime, and pit her against Pete out of his prime, an end-of-his-career Pete, and Pete's going to blow them off the court. It wouldn't even be close.

Men on the senior tour could beat women in the WTA.

So if you're talking about "Who's the best", you always have to put the great men ahead of the great women. Sorry, that's just reality. That means I'd put, say, Kuerten or Safin above Graf.

Now, if you're talking about who was the most dominant in their tour, and you want to artificially level the men and women to compensate for the fact that men are just better at sports than women, then maybe you can put Graf ahead of some of the great male players. But not unless you do that.
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Well I'm not going to start the whole men vs women war again. But sorry, title wise, longevity of being a pro, grand slams etc, both were better then Sampras. And as far as Kuerten and Safin above Navratilova and Graf, boy you must really be on crack as well as suffering from a macho complex. So in answer to your statement Capital B, Capital S. I sware the more these editors of TENNIS open their mouths, the more they sound like the ESPN magazine etc.
 
The bottom line is still this. Unless the directors, umps whoever, start enforcing the rule of the time clock then Nadal is free to do what he wants and is not cheating. There are plenty of other things that happen with other players. Coaching from the stands where the coach sits, swearing, etc. Then you've got the fine line things which are legal but one could certainly make an argument against it. The high pitch squealing after hitting (and not just Sharapova). The ever famous bathroom break when the person really doesn't need to go. The even more famous, I'll call the trainer because I'm down a break, but will pretend I'm actually hurt.

Basically it really doesn't matter what people think, us here, other professional athletes, editors, etc. It's up to the Directors and Umps to enforce rules, and if they don't, the player can not be the one who's blamed, it's that simple.
 
Feña14 said:
I was at his Wimbledon Quarter Final against Nieminen and by the end of the 2nd set I was getting pretty frustrated with him. He's a good player who doesn't need to break the sporting code, it shows a lack of respect to his opponent imo when he blatantly breaks the rules and rubs it in their face with a stupid VAMOS!!!

People near the front made a few audible comments about his speed between points in a joking way but it was just very annoying. When Gerry Armstrong had a word with him before a match at Queens Rafa wasn't happy at all, he looked like he was being picked on when he is quite clearly breaking the rules. He needs to learn that just because he is #2 doesn't mean he should get preferential treatment when it comes to etiquette.
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Totally agree - Rules are same for everybody, even for Nadal ! I am quite sure that if they start calling him about it that he will adjust very fast... What choice would he have anyway ? Stop playing tennis ;) ?

The problem is that apparently the empires do not want to do it (yet...)
 
Feña14 said:
I was at his Wimbledon Quarter Final against Nieminen and by the end of the 2nd set I was getting pretty frustrated with him. He's a good player who doesn't need to break the sporting code, it shows a lack of respect to his opponent imo when he blatantly breaks the rules and rubs it in their face with a stupid VAMOS!!!
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Since you brought Nieminen into this discussion:
Well, let's see if Jarkko had a problem with it, shall we?

Read the guy's post-match interview. Nieminen was asked about it

Q. He does take a lot of time between points, though? Agassi remarked on it. Does that affect a player against him?

JARKKO NIEMINEN: Well, it's for me, sometimes I'm too fast. I don't know, many times I think I'm the guy who is too fast there.

So I don't know how much really -- how much time he took. So comparing others, he's taking a lot of time. But, I mean, wasn't a negative effect to me. I don't know what the other players think, but I didn't even think about that. I just sometimes it's me who is very fast. So if it happens even against other players that I am the first player to start serve, I don't know.

Q. So you would have no complaints about any of his activities out there today?

JARKKO NIEMINEN: No, no, no. Not today, no.
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http://www.asapsports.com/tennis/2006wimbledon/070606JN.html

Nieminen was not at all bothered by it so the 'lack of respect' angle on this entire matter is your take on it.
In fact, Jarkko said that he's the one often rushing his opponents.
Nieminen is a very gracious loser. Didn't find any cheap excuses at all.

Tsunami said:
Rules are same for everybody, even for Nadal ! I am quite sure that if they start calling him about it that he will adjust very fast...
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Have you actually watched his matches recently?
 
BluBarry said:
As I read through this, it also reminded me that there is a Rule standing where upon Change Over, there is to be no rest at all. However, in the past ten years, it is quite usual for Players to stop at their chairs, grab a quick drink and towel off, without any reprimand from the Chair Umpire. So why are we not discussing this as well ?
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The rule you're misquoting here applies to tiebreaks. And yes, that should be enforced as well. However, this rule is universally broken now. Nads has apparently according to stats set a new record for total disdain of a rule and been allowed to do so by the chair.
 
jukka1970 said:
Well I'm not going to start the whole men vs women war again. But sorry, title wise, longevity of being a pro, grand slams etc, both were better then Sampras. And as far as Kuerten and Safin above Navratilova and Graf, boy you must really be on crack as well as suffering from a macho complex. So in answer to your statement Capital B, Capital S. I sware the more these editors of TENNIS open their mouths, the more they sound like the ESPN magazine etc.
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So, you think if you put (in their primes) Graf or Navratilova against Kuerten or Safin, Graf or Nav are going to win? LOL. Are they greater with respect to the womens' tour than Safin/Kuerten were with respect to the men's tour? Sure. Are they better tennis players? Not by a long shot.

What's next, are we going to start saying that the best female basketball players in the WNBA are "greater" than, say, Scottie Pippen?
 
WTF?? That's it...taking too much time after a point...so if you were just engaged in 25 shot ralley and he took 20.7 seconds you'd be complaining about it? LOL, I mean I think he slow plays but you do play to the servers pace...so its a problem when he receiving but not when he's serving I mean geez, I understand we have to pick at nadal from the way he grunts, aligns his water bottles, picks his arse, or take his extra 5 seconds. Imagine if he was an ass and threw racquets or spat at his opposition! Imagine how crazy this thread would be!
 
dh003i said:
So, you think if you put (in their primes) Graf or Navratilova against Kuerten or Safin, Graf or Nav are going to win? LOL. Are they greater with respect to the womens' tour than Safin/Kuerten were with respect to the men's tour? Sure. Are they better tennis players? Not by a long shot.

What's next, are we going to start saying that the best female basketball players in the WNBA are "greater" than, say, Scottie Pippen?
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I bold printed part of your comment to further explain what I meant. As far as Safin or Kuerten being able to beat Graf or Navratilova, yes there isn't really any doubt on them (Kuerten/Safin) being stronger. The point though is when they made this list, it's the sentence you wrote that I put in bold print that is what should have governed the way the list went.

See here's the main problem, they put Sampras at 1, and then the next 3 entries are Graf, Navratilova and Evert. (not positive who was 2 and who was 3, have to look at the list again). Ok, now by doing this there are 3 women above the rest of the men. So going by what you said, if it's true that they put Sampras at 1 because he's a man and can beat the women players, then how did Graf, Navratilova and Evert beat out the rest of the men? So this leads me to the conclusion that they put the man vs woman contest thing aside and went by the player's careers including accomplishments, longevity etc. And this is why I think the TENNIS magazine completely blew it. Because other then prize money, Sampras does not lead in any other category. This is why I was so pissed at TENNIS magazine, because they put Sampras at number 1 because he's a man, and not by his accomplishments compared to the ladies accomplishments, and then changed how they did the placements for every other male player.

so am glad you wrote that sentence, because it helped me write my answer with more clarity.

Jukka
 
Nadal's lack of respect or deference to the rules in this area is unfortunate. Nadal is pretty cool and seems humble enough. But there are two issues that are odd and out of character: the coaching, and the consistent violations of the 20 second rule. His opinion about coaching is in my opinion totally wrong. Federer got bad press when he accused Toni Nadal of coaching, but it is seeming more and more that he was exactly right. I didn't like the Nadal's response to that; when someone is accused of something, sometimes they will say "Well, so-and-so is very nervous about the Grand Slam, it's totally out of character, I'm sure he will realize his mistake."

I call it denial by superiority. They tried to make Federer look unstable or something, as if it was some tragic error on his part, how dare he accuse Toni Nadal of coaching. Federer has not yielded one inch on the issue, and I'm glad I have to say. If he believes that what he saw was coaching, he should stick to it.

On time, Nadal does this to slow the game down and give himself an advantage. Criminal? No. A little unfair? Yeah. He isn't above the rules, and his attitude earlier about umpires being against him or whatever that was is a little immature. Dude, quit breaking the rules and they'll quit calling you on it.

Other than those two things, Nadal is respectful and an excellent ambassador for the game.

Federer doesn't care about extra time issues, by what he said. Only coaching. I just didn't like the way the Nadal's handled that. Say the guy was bitter about losing, say you don't cheat, whatever. Don't try to make him look like a kid for daring to say what he thinks.
 
Dan,

Ok, that's great, and I also commend Nadal on that. But it doesn't negate the other things he's done. Also, it isn't illegal not to do what he did (that is, to let bad calls in your favor stand is not illegal); but it is illegal to take more than 20s between serves.
 
Haven't been able to respond to my own thread till now, but I'm glad to see the many excellent points that have been bought up.

All this talk about changing the rules of the game to allow for longer delays is total nonsense. And you're missing the point - suppose the time limit was extended to 25/30s, Nadal would still exceed it, and we'd be back where we started. I believe its a tactic designed as much to recover as it is to disrupt the rhythm. Why else would he need those long delays and towel walkabouts after even short points.

We all know the stars in every sport will get a little leeway from the officials. Yet I cannot recall a single instance of any other top player so consistently violating rules. During Wimbledon, I remember NBC even had a 'Nadal clock' which counted the time between points, and sure enough, it was regularly over the limit. Mary Carillo and McEnroe joked about but stopped just short of saying some action should be taken (they know what an absolute uproar that would cause).

So, will anything be done about it? I think not. I guess there are 2 ways it could happen - either a player complains to the umpire about it repeatedly during a match, and the umpire has enough balls to act on it, leading to heated charges and press conferences. Or someone with real clout, such as McEnroe, speaks out against it publicly. But doing so would be burning your tennis bridges and I doubt it will happen.

From every interview I've seen, Nadal does seem like a humble, likeable guy. I don't like or admire his game but I can respect his effort and results. I think its high time he got a proper coach and a new team, because his game doesn't seem to have improved, and I hope his immature behaviour is partly due to misguided influence from the likes of his uncle. If not, thats unfortunate.

And please, lets not derail this thread by discussing "is Sampras > X" or "men > women", both of which have been done to death before :)
 
He plays fair. He takes his time to think about what he's going to do.

Wish more players did that.

And I also wish they would overrule line calls against them if they know they are wrong. Something Rafa does.
 
VamosRafa said:
He plays fair. He takes his time to think about what he's going to do.

Wish more players did that.

And I also wish they would overrule line calls against them if they know they are wrong. Something Rafa does.
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So true I have seen him do this twice and Roger once. He also stopped his serve in mid rotation to go to the chair umpire and bring to his attention that a ball boy had a severely bleeding nose. I like him just as much for the kind of man he is as I do what kind of a player he is. No bs when he’s out there, just show me the ball and I’ll go get it.
 
VamosRafa said:
He plays fair. He takes his time to think about what he's going to do.

Wish more players did that.

And I also wish they would overrule line calls against them if they know they are wrong. Something Rafa does.
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He would be playing in a fair manner if he took his time to think about what he wants to do inside the 20 seconds prescribed by the rules. Consistently taking longer than that is not playing fair - it stands to reason. To claim that he is doing it inadvertantly would be silly. The matter has been brought up in enough post match interviews recently and I daresay discussed in the locker room sufficiently, not that I can claim to know anything of what goes on there, for him to know that he offends in this area. He's been called on it by umpires as well now, so he'd have to be pretty insensitive to both the rules of the game and his surroundings not to realise he is breaking the rules. The word reasonable appears in the rules a lot, but not on this point. The umpire is not sitting there with a stop watch on every point as almost all other players abide by this rule and policing it is not a problem. Certainly Nadal has been granted reasonable grace to date by umpires, but I sense this is changing. As to making the server wait etc you can chalk that down to gamesmanship and Nadal is not alone in this respect, and I don't see that he is any worse an offender than the next guy - albeit Agassi had a problem with it when they met in Canada last year I believe.
Nadal is not a bad mannered player on court, is courteous, does overturn calls and is observant enough to stop a match at RG to get a ball boy's nose bleed dealt with .... you'd have thought therefore that he could get his service routine under 20 seconds. If he left his socks alone that should do it.
 
jings said:
He's been called on it by umpires as well now
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Just curious, do you know approximately how many times he's been called on it by umpires this year ? Of course it is difficult to know exactly, but just to have an idea...
 
Others will know exactly where and when but I can recall once in open play and then also Gerry Armstrong talking to him before a match or during a changeover or somesuch, not an actual call during a service game ... there may be more. These were a couple of months back. I didn't see much of his US Open due to scheduling and such here, so he may have been right on time there, in which case good on him for speeding up.
 
jings said:
He would be playing in a fair manner if he took his time to think about what he wants to do inside the 20 seconds prescribed by the rules. Consistently taking longer than that is not playing fair - it stands to reason. To claim that he is doing it inadvertantly would be silly. The matter has been brought up in enough post match interviews recently and I daresay discussed in the locker room sufficiently, not that I can claim to know anything of what goes on there, for him to know that he offends in this area. He's been called on it by umpires as well now, so he'd have to be pretty insensitive to both the rules of the game and his surroundings not to realise he is breaking the rules. The word reasonable appears in the rules a lot, but not on this point. The umpire is not sitting there with a stop watch on every point as almost all other players abide by this rule and policing it is not a problem. Certainly Nadal has been granted reasonable grace to date by umpires, but I sense this is changing. As to making the server wait etc you can chalk that down to gamesmanship and Nadal is not alone in this respect, and I don't see that he is any worse an offender than the next guy - albeit Agassi had a problem with it when they met in Canada last year I believe.
Nadal is not a bad mannered player on court, is courteous, does overturn calls and is observant enough to stop a match at RG to get a ball boy's nose bleed dealt with .... you'd have thought therefore that he could get his service routine under 20 seconds. If he left his socks alone that should do it.
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Well technically it's against the rules but I doubt it effects the outcome of a match. If anything it helps the opponents more than Nadal.
 
Nadal_Freak said:
Well technically it's against the rules but I doubt it effects the outcome of a match. If anything it helps the opponents more than Nadal.
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What do you know what affects a player or not ? Are you inside their heads ?

It is against the rule, period ! There is NO OTHER WAY to look at it, sorry...
 
Tsunami said:
What do you know what affects a player or not ? Are you inside their heads ?

It is against the rule, period ! There is NO OTHER WAY to look at it, sorry...
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If it effects them than there is something wrong with them. It shouldn't effect anyone. Normally it would help them get rested and get their composure. I'm sure there are people that can't stand it but the majority have no problem with it. A lot of the rules are not enforced. Can't blame that on Nadal.
 
Nadal_Freak,

As explained by someone else, when Nadal takes extra time, it benefits him more than his opponent; at least if his opponent plays more energy-efficient than he does. Nadal plays a very energy-inefficient game. Taking an illegal extra 10seconds will benefit him significantly; however, it won't benefit his opponent, especially when his opponent is someone who plays a very energy-efficient game like Federer.
 
dh003i said:
Nadal_Freak,

As explained by someone else, when Nadal takes extra time, it benefits him more than his opponent; at least if his opponent plays more energy-efficient than he does. Nadal plays a very energy-inefficient game. Taking an illegal extra 10seconds will benefit him significantly; however, it won't benefit his opponent, especially when his opponent is someone who plays a very energy-efficient game like Federer.
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Nadal's got more energy to burn than his opponent. Also Nadal's heavy topspin wears down his opponent just like it would creating that topspin. Federer benefits from the extra time Nadal gives him.
 
Nadal_Freak,

Non-sense. We've seen many occasions where Nadal's opponent was ready to go, and Nadal was still gasping for air. It is obvious that in those rallies where an opponent like Blake is hitting the lines, and Nadal is chasing everything down, that Nadal is going to be more tired than the other player.
 
And Nadal doesn't make other players run? When Nadal is struggling he plays too much defense and loses than but when he's on he is making the other player run a ton and his heavy shots wear down the opponent. Just listen to Patrick Mcenroe and you'll understand. You obviously are a Nadal hater and looking for the littlest thing to tear Nadal down.
 
Nadal_Freak said:
Well technically it's against the rules but I doubt it effects the outcome of a match. If anything it helps the opponents more than Nadal.
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Well logic would suggest that doing anything that is outside the rules WILL affect the outcome of the match, assuming the other guy is obeying the rules.... that's why you have rules. A major part of any professional athlete's success is being able to play "your" game and not your opponents. How many times do you hear of athletes executing what they wanted to, or saying how they couldn't do what they wanted to through a match (and not just tennis). Nadal deliberately slows up his service games and plays at his pace. Again it stands to reason that if he is doing something against the rules and taking longer than 20 seconds consistently then he is gaining an unfair advantage as he is comfortable with the time he takes (I assume) but the receiver will not be used to having to wait so long .... breaking someone's rhythm is a major part of taking an opponent out of their comfort zone and thereby helping you impose your game on an opponent. Rules are there for a reason, to be adhered to, not broken. Old fashioned of me and not very modern thinking. This is strangely one of golf's great joys. The rules can be used to help you more often than people think and knowing them is a major part of the game .... but you still can't break them.
 
Defcon said:
Haven't been able to respond to my own thread till now, but I'm glad to see the many excellent points that have been bought up.

All this talk about changing the rules of the game to allow for longer delays is total nonsense. And you're missing the point - suppose the time limit was extended to 25/30s, Nadal would still exceed it, and we'd be back where we started. I believe its a tactic designed as much to recover as it is to disrupt the rhythm. Why else would he need those long delays and towel walkabouts after even short points.

We all know the stars in every sport will get a little leeway from the officials. Yet I cannot recall a single instance of any other top player so consistently violating rules. During Wimbledon, I remember NBC even had a 'Nadal clock' which counted the time between points, and sure enough, it was regularly over the limit. Mary Carillo and McEnroe joked about but stopped just short of saying some action should be taken (they know what an absolute uproar that would cause).

So, will anything be done about it? I think not. I guess there are 2 ways it could happen - either a player complains to the umpire about it repeatedly during a match, and the umpire has enough balls to act on it, leading to heated charges and press conferences. Or someone with real clout, such as McEnroe, speaks out against it publicly. But doing so would be burning your tennis bridges and I doubt it will happen.

From every interview I've seen, Nadal does seem like a humble, likeable guy. I don't like or admire his game but I can respect his effort and results. I think its high time he got a proper coach and a new team, because his game doesn't seem to have improved, and I hope his immature behaviour is partly due to misguided influence from the likes of his uncle. If not, thats unfortunate.

And please, lets not derail this thread by discussing "is Sampras > X" or "men > women", both of which have been done to death before :)
Click to expand...

My posting of the list was put in because it's the same magazine that started this topic, and to emphasize just how stupid this magazine is getting. Unfortunately the men > women is almost a byproduct of the list
 
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