Soft polys for tennis elbow
- Thread starter BaselinerEY
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g4driver
Legend
Tennis Warehouse - Babolat Origin String Review
www.tennis-warehouse.com
Babolat Origin resists easy classification. For starters, it is a monofilament, which is the construction most commonly associated with polyester. Unlike polyester, Origin is made from a "natural polyamide," which is a very pliable material similar in structure to nylon.
Babolat RPM Soft String Review - Tennis Warehouse
www.tennis-warehouse.com
From Babolat's website: RPM Soft tennis string polyamide monofilament
IMO, both Origin or RPM Soft feel and play like an expensive synthetic gut.
ChanterRacquet
Professional
At the time, CX 200 OS (RA 62ish). I don’t remember how long it would take, it’s been a year since I’ve played it. Month, maybe two?
ChanterRacquet
Professional
Or both, all I know is I miss the wicked spin.Just to thicken the plot somewhat, I've played extensively with both colours and I'd swear that the red is either slightly softer or perhaps doesn't hold tension quite as well.
innoVAShaun
G.O.A.T.
Retired from military with all kinds of arm issues. This has worked for me and my elbow:
-Thin polyester hybrid at low tension: Luxilon Alu Power 115 M / Tecnifibre Synthetic Gut 17 X (45/47lb)
-Switched to smaller grip size: now use G1 (4 1/8") with an overgrip.
-Thin polyester hybrid at low tension: Luxilon Alu Power 115 M / Tecnifibre Synthetic Gut 17 X (45/47lb)
-Switched to smaller grip size: now use G1 (4 1/8") with an overgrip.
To add clarity, here's the construction in picture form (forgive some of the cringy marketing lingo and translated grammar):Tennis Warehouse - Babolat Origin String Review
Babolat Origin resists easy classification. For starters, it is a monofilament, which is the construction most commonly associated with polyester. Unlike polyester, Origin is made from a "natural polyamide," which is a very pliable material similar in structure to nylon.
Babolat RPM Soft String Review - Tennis Warehouse
From Babolat's website: RPM Soft tennis string polyamide monofilament
IMO, both Origin or RPM Soft feel and play like an expensive synthetic gut.
g4driver
Legend
@Trip
Do you have a similar picture of Origin? Love to see those pics side by side if you can find one.
Does anyone else think RPM Soft and Orgin feel like uptty expensive syn gut?
I think @1HBHfanatic has a similar take on these strings, but will let him chime in if he has time to reply.
Do you have a similar picture of Origin? Love to see those pics side by side if you can find one.
Does anyone else think RPM Soft and Orgin feel like uptty expensive syn gut?
I think @1HBHfanatic has a similar take on these strings, but will let him chime in if he has time to reply.
g4driver
Legend
Did you keep hitting with it after the strings stuck out of place and that is how you developed TE?
The reason I ask is you are the first person I have heard of getting TE from VCT 1.30mm. I've strung over 50 reels of it for over two dozen clients and many play it until breakage (I don't recommend that, but that it just what some people do). None of them have every gotten TE, so I am curious about your case. I don't doubt you got TE, just want to make sure none of my clients get it. Thanks for sharing the info.
And thanks to @TennisJrDad and @Trip for introducing me to 1.30mm Sig Pro Thunderstorm as an alternative to VCT 1.30
@g4driver - Unfortunately no, but from having played both strings and examined them closely (with cross-cuts), and from all the product pictures I've seen, I'd have to believe they're almost identical, save for the different pigmentation and possibly a tweak to the polyamide formula and/or outer coating. If I do discover a more detailed product shot, or I can get good-looking enough pictures of the cross-cuts of each, I'll be sure to post.
g4driver
Legend
I tried Origin as a full bed and as a cross. I tried it first as a full bed. Yuck. Then I tried it as a cross. Yuck.
I stick my statement Origin/ RPM Soft is like the Cilantro of the herb world.
You either love it or hate it.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/leslie...the-reason-you-hate-cilantro/?sh=642cb98e5206
I stick my statement Origin/ RPM Soft is like the Cilantro of the herb world.
You either love it or hate it.https://www.forbes.com/sites/leslie...the-reason-you-hate-cilantro/?sh=642cb98e5206
ChanterRacquet
Professional
I cut VCT out as soon as it would stop snapping back as I would lose all the control the spin provided. I hesitate to say stuck out of place because really what happened is they lost so much tension they eventually didn’t have what it’d take to snap back, so I’d just get big wave of displaced string across the whole string bed.
Thanks
Proper and way higher levels of technical proficiency and training, coupled with maxed-out phenotypes.
So no, while the softness or stiffness of poly may not be a cause of TE at all (the TE that I see is most often caused by a combo of poor form and poor tissue health), it can help to lessen the impact load for those with TE wishing to find a better balance between string bed performance and comfort.
TL;DR - And while it might not be TE specifically, the pros still deal with elbow issues (Djokovic currently, Tsitsipas in the past, etc.). They're still human, too, and still effected by the same stuff that effects us all.
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socallefty
G.O.A.T.
Because they break the poly before it goes dead. If rec players cut out poly within 10-15 hours and do not string above 50 lbs, they will be fine. If a player plays with the same poly and notices after how many hours he gets a wrist/elbow twinge, he should be diligent about cutting it out a few hours before that. Also if you don’t play regularly, poly can go dead after a few weeks even if you don’t play with it and you have to restring.
High level players like ATP pros break all strings including poly in a few hours typically.
Hansen
Professional
gasquet even got surgery because of te, and not many pros have a one-hander anyway
Cause they are less than 30, ultra trained and fit and have kine and massage team that spend at least 1h a day in recovery and care.
Besides that many use hybrid setups
Fighting phoenix
Professional
I used to get horrible tennis elbow when I played college tennis - before practice I’d go to the ultrasound machine (the swimmers used it on their shoulders), and get treatment and then I was fine to get through practice. Next day I could barely lift a pen to take notes in classes
Power Player
Bionic Poster
This is the issue, you are using the poly for too long for your arm. If you have tennis elbow and must use poly, use a super thin gauge and change it after 6 hours or so. Polys just don't play very well for that long. There are a few people who can use polys for a long time with no ill effects but you probably aren't in that camp.
jmacdaununder2
Legend
IMO Soft is slightly slicker than Origin, but still needs a cross like Velocity to allow decent mains movement; sweet ride comfort wise though.
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jmacdaununder2
Legend
I’ve only tried it as a main in non poly hybrids, too ‘sticky’ for any other application, although Soft slides a bit better than Origin.I tried Origin as a full bed and as a cross. I tried it first as a full bed. Yuck. Then I tried it as a cross. Yuck.
I stick my statement Origin/ RPM Soft is like the Cilantro of the herb world.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/leslie...the-reason-you-hate-cilantro/?sh=642cb98e5206
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graycrait
Legend
Why do TE sufferers continue to play with rackets that obviously transmit damaging vibration to the their elbows hoping a string change will bring about a miracle. If they have cleaned up their stroke technique and still have/get TE then I think a foam filled racket would be the first change to consider, and then string change. The crisp feedback of a thin walled stiff racket might be great for baseline bashing aka modern tennis but TE seems to be a real thing. It has been that way for me with APDs and PDs. One cheap alternative might be pouring in some mini styrofoam BBs into the racket, something I am experimenting with. Better is to use a foam filled racket that dampens vibration. yeah, it won't give that direct crisp feedback, but unless you are UTR 11+ that probably isn't that important.
jmacdaununder2
Legend
Also Thiem, Raducanu and Alcaraz amongst others are dealing with/have dealt with arm issues surprisingly early in their careers; could just be the demands of the modern game generally, but the number of young players with arm injuries is concerning.
Could the fact that they use heavier racquets be a factor?
Fighting phoenix
Professional
That’s interesting…I do think the flood of 300 gram stiff 100in frames is having an impact on so many getting tennis elbow
several threads on here abut this issue, many high quality posts from @g4driver and @Trip @TennisJrDad (in this thread and others- there is a whole accepting you cannot use poly thread on this forum as well with great insight from a number of people).
here's my personal/anecdotal advice having lateral epicondylitis myself.
general advice/experience:
- if any type of equipment causes pain- try to find a compromise but if not working, ditch it (racquets/strings). not worth it trying to find compromises for your health.
- being physically fit does not protect you from injury (especially with poor technique- the body can only handle so much)- i lift weights regularly, 3-4x per week for the past 16 years (squats, deadlifts, isolation exercises including forearm) and it did not prevent injury. be wary of thinking you can also just train and overcome injury as well. once injured, easy to flare things up again in my experience.
- stretching exercises/NSAIDs/rest all help- get a flexbar (look up tyler twist)
string specific advice (your question):
- how long are you breaking the multi in? If it is 6-10 hours and you get decent playability, do you even need a poly? you would probably need to restring the poly in this range as well. several good recommendations about multi hybrids here as well.
- gut/poly is my preferred set up in a lower powered racquet. playability lasts longer for me than any other set-up i have tried. i have tried poly/multi, multi/poly and this is better in my experience than the others for me.
- the only polys that I have been able to play that don't cause me any issues in a hybrid set-up: 1) tier 1 ghostwire 2) wilson revolve 3) wilson revolve spin. out of these 3, i would recommend the first 2 as crosses in a hybrid set-up and revolve spin if you are looking for something to put in the mains with a soft string in the cross. interestingly, i had discomfort with both isospeed cream (in a hybrid), polytour air (in a full bed, but stiffer racquet than my usual) which is contrary to many other people's experience here. regardless, this is my experience that the these 3 polys do not give me any issues in my gravity racquets- i accept that this could be different for others and what is good for me may not be good for others so i would not write off anyone else's recommendations.
- once you find something that works for you and is comfortable, just stick with it.
best of luck to you and anyone struggling with this common problem
here's my personal/anecdotal advice having lateral epicondylitis myself.
general advice/experience:
- if any type of equipment causes pain- try to find a compromise but if not working, ditch it (racquets/strings). not worth it trying to find compromises for your health.
- being physically fit does not protect you from injury (especially with poor technique- the body can only handle so much)- i lift weights regularly, 3-4x per week for the past 16 years (squats, deadlifts, isolation exercises including forearm) and it did not prevent injury. be wary of thinking you can also just train and overcome injury as well. once injured, easy to flare things up again in my experience.
- stretching exercises/NSAIDs/rest all help- get a flexbar (look up tyler twist)
string specific advice (your question):
- how long are you breaking the multi in? If it is 6-10 hours and you get decent playability, do you even need a poly? you would probably need to restring the poly in this range as well. several good recommendations about multi hybrids here as well.
- gut/poly is my preferred set up in a lower powered racquet. playability lasts longer for me than any other set-up i have tried. i have tried poly/multi, multi/poly and this is better in my experience than the others for me.
- the only polys that I have been able to play that don't cause me any issues in a hybrid set-up: 1) tier 1 ghostwire 2) wilson revolve 3) wilson revolve spin. out of these 3, i would recommend the first 2 as crosses in a hybrid set-up and revolve spin if you are looking for something to put in the mains with a soft string in the cross. interestingly, i had discomfort with both isospeed cream (in a hybrid), polytour air (in a full bed, but stiffer racquet than my usual) which is contrary to many other people's experience here. regardless, this is my experience that the these 3 polys do not give me any issues in my gravity racquets- i accept that this could be different for others and what is good for me may not be good for others so i would not write off anyone else's recommendations.
- once you find something that works for you and is comfortable, just stick with it.
best of luck to you and anyone struggling with this common problem
What arm issues did Thiem have besides his wrist injury? That one happened on a bad mishit, hard to blame equipment there.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
#1 reason for tennis elbow is trying to save money on restringing frequently with poly. If every player cut out their poly string before or at the first sign of tightness (even before soreness or pain) in their wrist/elbow, would we have tennis elbow injuries? The thing is that with stiff polys it can be within 5 hours and for soft polys within 10-15 hours. If you are not willing to restring that often, don’t play with poly and please don’t play with an old stringjob once your elbow/arm starts aching.
The worst are the rec players who don’t know better and like poly because it doesn’t break and think they can play for many months with it. Unless their technique is very good or they play with really soft-hitting opponents only, they are going to be seeing their orthopedic doctor sooner or later.
. If every player cut out their poly string before or at the first sign of tightness (even before soreness or pain) in their wrist/elbow, would we have tennis elbow injuries? The thing is that with stiff polys it can be within 5 hours and for soft polys within 10-15 hours. If you are not willing to restring that often, don’t play with poly and please don’t play with an old stringjob once your elbow/arm starts aching.The worst are the rec players who don’t know better and like poly because it doesn’t break and think they can play for many months with it. Unless their technique is very good or they play with really soft-hitting opponents only, they are going to be seeing their orthopedic doctor sooner or later.
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WYK
Legend
That's actually a good point. Not just about Thiem, but also the fact it can take just one bad outing to have an injury.
Many here pipe up and start blaming technique(and I have been guilty of this, too).
In nearly any sport, you can be injured at any time, regardless of how good your technique is.
The best thing to do is consult a doctor.
If you are going to play on, get a flexible racquet. In the OP's case, something like a Gravity might work.
It is a good idea to go with softer strings. I started using MSV poly's on top of RPM Rough VS the old RPM/ALU combo previously.
It made a big difference in itself. I tried natural gut, but just can not make it work. I prefer poly at very low tensions - 44lbs ish.
I use a Gravity Tour (that I got from veelium, btw) and I have a bad elbow. It allows me to play on whilst I treat it without further damaging my arm. I use ice after a game, then heat later on or the next day for blood flow, and I have no pain off the court now.
jmacdaununder2
Legend
Hard to believe that one bad miss hit could do so much damage unless his arm was already pretty ‘stressed out’.
tele
Hall of Fame
These articles indicate tennis elbow is not particularly rare among pros.
https://www.itftennis.com/en/news-and-media/articles/injury-clinic-tennis-elbow/
Common Tennis Injuries Affecting Your Favorite Stars - Penn Medicine
Are you an avid tennis player? Learn about the most common types of injuries, the famous tennis players who have experienced them, and how you can prevent injury in your own play.
www.pennmedicine.org
ChanterRacquet
Professional
Got to hit with RPM Soft today. I can see similarities to Origin, but the first thing I noticed when hitting with RPMS is it’s just a little softer. Origin was too hard on my elbow.
My opponent commented on my top spin so that’s consistent with its listed spin potential over at TWU. On an atypically windless day in the plains of west Texas, at one point I hit a killer slice and actually observed the ball lift, in a deviation from its flight path, on its way over the net, I believe due to the spin. So again, RPMS seems to be good for spin. No notching from one outing; strings held in place for the first half but have starting sticking out of place slightly.
I haven’t read the whole article yet but lift from backspin seems possible, I just never observed it so clearly before:
I can’t count the number of times my slices hit the net cord, but this one, headed right for it, just lifted from its trajectory, like a hop from one path to another, and cleared the net, was wild.
So, if ya buy 3 packs you can get it at $11.xx/set. Is it worth it? Not sure yet. Gonna try PPC and NXT Duramax first. I still want to maximize arm friendliness as much as possible.
My opponent commented on my top spin so that’s consistent with its listed spin potential over at TWU. On an atypically windless day in the plains of west Texas, at one point I hit a killer slice and actually observed the ball lift, in a deviation from its flight path, on its way over the net, I believe due to the spin. So again, RPMS seems to be good for spin. No notching from one outing; strings held in place for the first half but have starting sticking out of place slightly.
I haven’t read the whole article yet but lift from backspin seems possible, I just never observed it so clearly before:
The Physics of Tennis: Tennis Ball Trajectories — The Role of Aerodynamic Drag and Lift in Tennis Shots"
Study to determine how aerodynamic drag and lift forces influence the flight of a tennis ball and to determine the drag and lift coefficients that define these forces.
twu.tennis-warehouse.com
I can’t count the number of times my slices hit the net cord, but this one, headed right for it, just lifted from its trajectory, like a hop from one path to another, and cleared the net, was wild.
So, if ya buy 3 packs you can get it at $11.xx/set. Is it worth it? Not sure yet. Gonna try PPC and NXT Duramax first. I still want to maximize arm friendliness as much as possible.
Great to hear you are still enjoying the gravity tour
And that your elbow is doing well
And yeah, easy to get injured without doing anything wrong really. I got injured on my wrist in almost the same way as Thiem one year ago. Bad bounce on clay, etc.
Luckily not as badly but still took 2 months
Curious about what happened next. Did you find your ideal arm-friendly setup?
ChanterRacquet
Professional
Summer vacations are ensuring I get a lot of time with PPC. It’s not my fav, certainly lost some tension and I haven’t broken through in what time I’ve had to play. Get home tomorrow where I’ll cut it out and string the NXT Duramax.
jackson vile
G.O.A.T.
The whole point of poly was to string at super low tensions to increase the spin and sweet pot while still maintaining great control
The point I’m making is that virtually everyone strings their poly way way too high and that’s the real issue beside rackets being too light and not staying relaxed when hitting
The point I’m making is that virtually everyone strings their poly way way too high and that’s the real issue beside rackets being too light and not staying relaxed when hitting
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jmacdaununder2
Legend
It took folks a while to work out the low tension thing; Luxilon used to recommend -10% tension on their packets when most advanced players were stringing 95"/97" heads at 58 - 60lbs or more.
ChanterRacquet
Professional
So, moved on from Velocity and PPC, tried Head RIP Control and Tec RPX.
RIP Control is soft, seems to struggle a tad to bite the ball, and is kind of a pain to weave.
RPX is so far like a lower powered Multifeel. So I prefer multifeel.
I’ve got a few packs of PPC to burn and I’m thinking Multifeel/PPC might be a good combo based on strings I’ve got laying around.
I’ve heard X-1/Velocity advocated for several times on the forum. Any thoughts on Multifeel/PPC?
My thoughts are PPC seems more durable than Multifeel so good in the cross where multifeel frays quickly, but PPC also seems to lose tension so best to leave it in the cross.
RIP Control is soft, seems to struggle a tad to bite the ball, and is kind of a pain to weave.
RPX is so far like a lower powered Multifeel. So I prefer multifeel.
I’ve got a few packs of PPC to burn and I’m thinking Multifeel/PPC might be a good combo based on strings I’ve got laying around.
I’ve heard X-1/Velocity advocated for several times on the forum. Any thoughts on Multifeel/PPC?
My thoughts are PPC seems more durable than Multifeel so good in the cross where multifeel frays quickly, but PPC also seems to lose tension so best to leave it in the cross.
Happi
Hall of Fame
Multifeel the black is a really good cross string for other multies as it has a very smooth coating. I use X-One mains / MF black cross. MF black is very different from the natural version.
p-ratziner
New User
Volkl vstar Is very soft...
jmacdaununder2
Legend
Softness is probably linked to inability to maintain tension.
ChrisJR3264
Hall of Fame
How low should you string? I find 52 in the summer here quite fine bc tension drops rapidly. I’m the Florida winters - 45 to 48 is perfect.
I had a little problem in winter with my elbow in the winter and now I am hitting with MSV Swift in my Extreme Tour and having no issues.
Plus it much jumpy when hitting flat as Lynx Tour (in my experience), and the dropoff of tension and spin potential is slower compared to other soft polies I tried, especially shaped ones (hyper g soft, tour bite soft and so on). Worth giving it a try!
Plus it much jumpy when hitting flat as Lynx Tour (in my experience), and the dropoff of tension and spin potential is slower compared to other soft polies I tried, especially shaped ones (hyper g soft, tour bite soft and so on). Worth giving it a try!
Humbi_HTX
Professional
@BaselinerEY how is your elbow?
