Softest and stiffest strings: Tennis Warehouse testing

[mikeler]

I have to agree. Been playing MCS (have been battleing TE, for almost a year) experimented with Silk..tore my elbow/forearm up and it was a rocket launcher compared to MCS..

Mikeler - is mantis the most controlled/low powered multi..if not is the alternative (arm friendly..)

Youtek & Micro Rad..MCS at 54!!

RIP Control is low powered as well but to a sensitive arm it will seem much harsher than MCS. For people with healthy arms there won't be much difference. My advice, stick with MCS until your arm gets better. Silk felt very stiff to me for the few minutes I hit with it.

 

[Ronaldo]

RIP Control is low powered as well but to a sensitive arm it will seem much harsher than MCS. For people with healthy arms there won't be much difference. My advice, stick with MCS until your arm gets better. Silk felt very stiff to me for the few minutes I hit with it.

What are the softest strings from experience? Aside from NG.

 

[JT_2eighty]

^^^see mikeler's multis thread, a great multi reference. I think MCS and Xcel were the tops for comfort. (oops I bumped this thread again, doh!)

 

[Power Player]

Mantis > Silk.

Mantis is extremely comfortable and awesome. Not really my type of string, I am a syn gut Cross guy, but Mantis was a great string.

 

[Ronaldo]

^^^see mikeler's multis thread, a great multi reference. I think MCS and Xcel were the tops for comfort. (oops I bumped this thread again, doh!)

Ty, ck'd Mikeler's thread, outstanding. Using Prince Premiere LT 16, shredded it in 4 days, 10+ hrs. Have a set of Tourna Quasi Gut to re-string tonight. In a Redondo mp, 18x20 pattern. Gamma Pro is really soft but dies premaurely like poly.

 

[mikeler]

^^^see mikeler's multis thread, a great multi reference. I think MCS and Xcel were the tops for comfort. (oops I bumped this thread again, doh!)

Correct with Maxim Touch 17 coming in a close third place to Xcel Premium at number 2 and MCS at number 1. A distant 4th would probably be Genesis Xplosion. Those first three are in a class of their own for softness though.

 

[Ronaldo]

Correct with Maxim Touch 17 coming in a close third place to Xcel Premium at number 2 and MCS at number 1. A distant 4th would probably be Genesis Xplosion. Those first three are in a class of their own for softness though.

Xcel was like butter in more ways than one.

 

[mikeler]

Xcel was like butter in more ways than one.

It deserves the premium price.

 

[Agent Orynge]

Xcel was like butter in more ways than one.

...it tasted like butter? How else could it be like butter?

 

[fortun8son]

Dunlop Comfort Synthetic, esp the 17g is a very good option for fullbed or a cross. While u can get it. Discontinued.
Makes a nice cross for Rip Control 16

 

[nvottennis]

^^ must say I love the comments the op has gotten

 

[Centered]

^^ must say I love the comments the op has gotten

Yes, hypocrisy can be mildly entertaining.

 

[Power Player]

That doesn't even make sense.

Maybe you can chart that out for us.

 

[Centered]

This topic (my posts on the first page) is informative. Yet, a number of people, including you, have posted that I am trolling the forum. That is hypocrisy because such posts are the trolling, not my post. If people feel antagonized by the Tennis Warehouse and RSI testing, that's really not my problem. Personally, I think there's room in this forum for more information than anecdotal testimonials. I created this topic for a friend who said he has found the stiffness charts useful, in order to get the information up to date and classified in a more useable form.

As I've said many times in the past... Anyone who disagrees with TW's article that said stiffness is the most important factor in a string can take it up with TW. Anyone who doesn't think their information is useful can discuss it with them. I'm not interested at all in the pettiness that many of the responses to this topic are so steeped in.

 

[Power Player]

Why don't you just tell your "friend" how to use the TW site? That would be the logical thing to do.

 

[mikeler]

Why don't you just tell your "friend" how to use the TW site? That would be the logical thing to do.

I just found a picture of Centered. See below:

 

[Agent Orynge]

This topic (my posts on the first page) is informative. Yet, a number of people, including you, have posted that I am trolling the forum. That is hypocrisy because such posts are the trolling, not my post. If people feel antagonized by the Tennis Warehouse and RSI testing, that's really not my problem. Personally, I think there's room in this forum for more information than anecdotal testimonials. I created this topic for a friend who said he has found the stiffness charts useful, in order to get the information up to date and classified in a more useable form.

As I've said many times in the past... Anyone who disagrees with TW's article that said stiffness is the most important factor in a string can take it up with TW. Anyone who doesn't think their information is useful can discuss it with them. I'm not interested at all in the pettiness that many of the responses to this topic are so steeped in.

Yup, it's the same garbage that got you banned last year. Nothing new at all, in fact. You think you'd have learned your lesson the first time, but it's increasingly clear how much you desire the resentment of other posters. That is the definition of trolling.

I'll take it up with TW when they're the ones posting it here. In the mean time, please stop peddling your ignorance.

 

[fgs]

centered,

it is not up to you to judge your topic as informative. on the other hand the test results and subsequent publishing by tw-university are informative, not your mention of them on the same site.

some informational value could eventually be assigned to your topic if it would be in another discussion board, but definitely not on tw's own forum.

you do really have another credibility issue - if i would have a friend, i would send him those infos or make him aware that he can check a lot of such results basically free of any charge on this site. i would never ever make a thread in order to inform a friend.

you seem not to understand my issue (and it seems that a few fellow members are having the same issue with you) - personally i do really appreciate the work they have done at tw-u and the results that have been derived from there. i am absolutely certain that this is a good start in the quest to understand and describe the dynamic behaviour of a stringbed. nevertheless, there seem to be some of the variables either overseen or neglected, and most important of all - STIFFNESS IS NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT CRITERIA in determining the playability of a string!!!!

there has either to be done some more work on this or there has to be discovered a correlation between measured stiffness and perceived stiffness - if there is any such possibility.

i think that i have already tried to explain how stroking mechanics, besides swingspeed, affect the perception of the individuals. devising a testing procedure to replicate a flat stroke and a windshieldwiperstroke with a "handheld" racquet vs. a clamped one is surely economically not feasible. until then, we will have to live with approximations and you obviously have a huge difficulty to understand the difference between a static and a dynamic environment. the fact that a ball is launched against a single strand of string is not a "dynamic" environment in the sense tennis is played. trying to extrapolate results of such a test to what really happens on court will quite often lead to "inconsistencies" - see for instance rpm blast or tourna big hitter blue being stiffer than luxilon alu power.

 

[UCSF2012]

I thought the information was helpful for me. It's a relevant topic personally, because I have some wrist and arm pain occasionally, and I need information as a GUIDE into which strings to consider. The information doesn't have to be scientifically precise or accurate. I just need a GUIDELINE to what to purchase. This thread was useful for me. People may hate the OP for whatever reason, but the world doesn't surround around you. It may be helpful to others, even if it doesn't help you.

 

[gregor.b]

it's increasingly clear how much you desire the resentment of other posters. That is the definition of trolling.

That is kind of weird.Kind of like 'self harm' but with words. And probably doesn't hurt as much. I guess.

 

[fgs]

ucsf2012,
that is exactly the use these data are intended for - as a guideline to what to TRY! and they are available for free for a lot more strings at tw-university.

would you recommend strings according to these data you have never played? i mean recommend! - like "i would advise you to play string 'abc'. in spite of never having played with it, it has a stiffness of ..., energy return of..., etc. i don't know anything about the string, i have no idea what stick you play, i have no idea of your level nor gamestyle, but i would recommend this string to you because of these measurements."

 

[UCSF2012]

ucsf2012,
that is exactly the use these data are intended for - as a guideline to what to TRY! and they are available for free for a lot more strings at tw-university.

would you recommend strings according to these data you have never played? i mean recommend! - like "i would advise you to play string 'abc'. in spite of never having played with it, it has a stiffness of ..., energy return of..., etc. i don't know anything about the string, i have no idea what stick you play, i have no idea of your level nor gamestyle, but i would recommend this string to you because of these measurements."

In this day in age, stiffness matters because we have ultra stiff rackets and polyester strings. My elbow and wrist want to know which strings are soft. I don't care how well they play if my body can't take it. I look at this list and make an educated PREDICTION of which string I want to try, factoring in gauge and whatever else. I can adapt to the string by adjusting my swing, timing,...etc. I just absolutely have to have a string that won't cause pain. These charts tell me what I CANNOT buy because my body probably can't handle them. Even if the string is coated with Tinkerbell's magic pixie dust, if it's too stiff, I cannot use it.

These charts may be useless to many of you, but it's invaluable to me because I have a history of TE and wrist pain.

 

[Agent Orynge]

A certain so-and-so with a poor reputation has chosen to align himself with the other so-and-so with a poor reputation. Why am I not surprised?

If some of you take issue with us lambasting OP, click on his name at look at his previous posts. You don't have to go back far to see much of the same tripe being posted around this time last year, along with every poor excuse for rehashing the same ignorant copypasta. You can also see many of us trying to reason with him, and being accused of 'personal attacks' in return. I haven't bothered to counter any of his faulty logic this time around because there really isn't anything new to say.

 

[UCSF2012]

A certain so-and-so with a poor reputation has chosen to align himself with the other so-and-so with a poor reputation. Why am I not surprised?

If some of you take issue with us lambasting OP, click on his name at look at his previous posts. You don't have to go back far to see much of the same tripe being posted around this time last year, along with every poor excuse for rehashing the same ignorant copypasta. You can also see many of us trying to reason with him, and being accused of 'personal attacks' in return. I haven't bothered to counter any of his faulty logic this time around because there really isn't anything new to say.

I really don't care what he post in the past. This particular post has meaning to me. And based on this thread alone, a number of users have displayed themselves as the bad egg.

There's nothing wrong with recommending a string based on stiffness alone, because it's up to the buyer to determine whether the other qualities of the strings are what he uniquely wants.

 

[fortun8son]

would you recommend strings according to these data you have never played? i mean recommend! - like "i would advise you to play string 'abc'. in spite of never having played with it, it has a stiffness of ...

To a certain extent, yes.
I know the RSI data was compiled to help professional stringers choose strings for their clients.
Here's an example: A client comes to me and says " I like this Wilson Hollow Core Pro 16 but it's too expensive. Can you recommend something similar that is cheaper?" I can look at the chart and be reasonably confident that this player would be happy with Fibergel Power or Multifeel. I would also know that I could string either a bit lower because they have less tension loss.
I would probably not recommend PPS17 because of the difference in gauge and construction, even though the stiffness and tension loss are in the same range.

Of course, I also know that there is less of a correlation between lab stiffness and playing feel when it comes to polys, mainly from 'anecdotal' information. ie: playtests.

 

[fgs]

ucsf2012, fortun8son,
please bear in mind that i am really kidding now, but at the same time i am very serious.

my body and especially my shoulder seems to be very anecdotal. i happen to play with a stiff stick, the mantis 300 (ra 70 unstrung!) and obviously also a very stiff string in the mains (the mantis power polyester). even after a tough three hours match or a really heavy practice session of 2 hours i have no issues with my shoulder. the match i was talking about went over three long sets and i surely had more than 200 serves (first and seconds) executed. my anecdotal shoulder did not bother.

the funny part of the anecdote is that with a definitely more soft stick, the head youtek radical mp (ra. 59 strung!!!!) and a much much softer string, the head sonic pro, strung at 23kg (that's 1 kg higher than i string the stiff mantis!) i had to stop playing after one set of doubles - happened to not have enough sticks around so i had to borrow one from my doubles-partner.

now i ask: how does that correlate with the lab tests my dear friends? life seems more anecdotal obviously than scientific.

i understand the reasons behind these measurements and i agree completely about their usefulness. i confess to regularly look them up too, but in my opinion what they say is that if a string measures stiff it MIGHT play stiff, it is not sure it plays stiff. there are more variables to put into the equation in order to make such an "educated" guess.

what i mentioned earlier is the missing of a very important factor, and this can only be evaluated "empirically" or "anecdotally". strings, specially polys go dead as we all now - that is they lose their resiliency. some sooner, some later, and this timespan is obviously very much determined by the not so anecdotal swingspeed of the player!

so now i ask: my dear ucsf2012, what do you do with a soft string that goes dead in two hours of hitting and than plays like a board and stiffer than kevlar? and gives you pain and whatever you actually don't want. a string initially measuring stiffer but keeping it's properties for a longer time is definitely in my anecdotal take much healthier than the soft string gone dead. where do you read these data in either rsi or tw-univeristy measurements?

i repeat myself - i consult these figures too and find them "informative", but i would not really issue a recommendation based solely on those figures without having played the string! that is all i'm talking about.

and the issue with the op is that a lot of strings he has recommended in the past he hasn't played at all but just picked some readings from these charts.

 

[fortun8son]

Lab testing is only one tool, although a valuable one, but it is only one side of the coin. The other is empirical data gathered from dedicated and articulate playtesters.
Anyone who recommends a string based solely on lab data is doing their clients or friends a disservice.
On the other hand, I wouldn't recommend a string to a 3.0 with a Ti S6 based solely on a test done by a 4.5 with a Donnay X99 either!

Obviously, no one individual can playtest all 800+ strings that are out there.
One must use the available data and make an educated guess.
The charts can come in handy here. Perhaps you can't find anyone who has tested Alpha Prodigy or Toalson TOA Gold, but the charts will tell you that they probably won't play the same!

I think the real problem comes from equating 'less stiff' with 'soft'.
Stiffer(usually) = more control and less stiff (usually) = more power, but comfort? Over time?
That's something else altogether!

 

[fgs]

fortun8son,
that is exactly what i was talking about. those numbers are a rough selection tool and will surely provide for some "collateral victims" (strings that anecdotally would make it but the numbers suggest not), but the percentage is surely not high. i have repeatedly stated that these "stiff strings that play soft" and vice-versa are rather the exception and not the rule!!!!

the main idea behind it is to have "on hand" experience with the stuff you recommend. it would make no sense to recommend someone a soft poly because it is soft, knowing that that guy has slow swingspeed, basically pushes the ball around and plays three years with a set of string. the numbers may be right but the recommendations is surely wrong.

 

[mikeler]

In this day in age, stiffness matters because we have ultra stiff rackets and polyester strings. My elbow and wrist want to know which strings are soft. I don't care how well they play if my body can't take it. I look at this list and make an educated PREDICTION of which string I want to try, factoring in gauge and whatever else. I can adapt to the string by adjusting my swing, timing,...etc. I just absolutely have to have a string that won't cause pain. These charts tell me what I CANNOT buy because my body probably can't handle them. Even if the string is coated with Tinkerbell's magic pixie dust, if it's too stiff, I cannot use it.

These charts may be useless to many of you, but it's invaluable to me because I have a history of TE and wrist pain.

Try Mantis Comfort Synthetic. I know it is a mid-range stiffness multi but I guarantee it is the best string on your arm besides some natural gut.

 

[Power Player]

I thought the information was helpful for me. It's a relevant topic personally, because I have some wrist and arm pain occasionally, and I need information as a GUIDE into which strings to consider. The information doesn't have to be scientifically precise or accurate. I just need a GUIDELINE to what to purchase. This thread was useful for me. People may hate the OP for whatever reason, but the world doesn't surround around you. It may be helpful to others, even if it doesn't help you.

This is just copy and pasted data from TWU. You can access and manage the data however you want if you simply use their resource and know how to use a mouse.

 

[Agent Orynge]

This is just copy and pasted data from TWU. You can access and manage the data however you want if you simply use their resource and know how to use a mouse.

It's no use trying to explain something as seemingly simple as this. Some people are determined to undermine our logic (and now our credibility, apparently - bad eggs my @$$), no matter how ridiculous they sound. Like I said, there's really nothing any of us can say now that wasn't said a year ago, which is still just as valid.

Perhaps we should just copy and paste our own arguments from yesteryear. That would be appropriate, no?

 

[JT_2eighty]

There's nothing wrong with recommending a string based on stiffness alone, because it's up to the buyer to determine whether the other qualities of the strings are what he uniquely wants.

This is fine to do, but just beware of one thing, and this thing to be wary of, is the point that many are trying to make in this thread...

Some of these strings in the "Top 15" list are actually STIFFER to you arm, once they are strung in an actual racquet and stringbed pattern, than others that don't appear in the list. (Remember the lab tests only test 1 strand of string, struck by a metal hammer a few times). The tests, while useful, don't measure things like "loss of elasticity" etc, things that can impact arm health MORE than the static stiffness measured by a hammer may tell us. If they measured the stiffness 1 day, 3 days, or 2 weeks later... that would give more useful info about long-term arm health (but they don't have that yet).

For instance, Mantis Comfort Synthetic doesn't appear on any of the "top 15s", even though it is regarded my MANY (people with TE & GE that get no pain from that string) that it is one of the softest multis out there. Meanwhile, there are Polyester strings that appear in these top 15 'soft' lists, that are definitely NOT good for your arm!

So, the worry is that, yes, while it may be a useful GUIDE (which I do believe it is), this useful guide should not be used to NEGATE playtesters' anecdotal experience that may lead us to other, even more comfortable strings, like Mantis Comfort, or others like it. And, in the past, the OP would post non-stop about his belief that the lab tests were more useful than anyone's actual experience. He would compare himself to Galileo, and use the metaphor that these lab tests are like the fact that the earth revolves around the sun, and that any playtest experience that may assert otherwise, was similar to the belief that the sun revolves around the earth. So, it is those analogies and memories and plain nonsense that we are all hoping does not surface again.

That is all. The lab tests are but one piece of the puzzle, but they are NOT a replacement for playtester's reviews, which I believe are often times more useful than lab data. Both are useful, but the degree to which is what many here will continue to argue about.

 

[mikeler]

Bottom line:

1. Don't recommend strings to others unless you have played with them. Even then, others may not like what you like.
2. Stiffness ratings do not always correlate to how soft a string plays.
3. Use playtest information first and use RSI as a supplement when deciding what string to play next.

 

[Agent Orynge]

Can we lock and/or delete this thread now? Please?

 

[Centered]

This thread was useful for me.

Glad to hear it.

 

[Centered]

For instance, Mantis Comfort Synthetic doesn't appear on any of the "top 15s"

I suggest taking another look, because that's not true. That string appears in two of them, at least.

Meanwhile, there are Polyester strings that appear in these top 15 'soft' lists, that are definitely NOT good for your arm!

I suggest taking another look, and you'll see why a few polys appeared in one of the lists, and what happened as tension increases. Take a look at the tension loss for those strings when strung at 40 lbs.

This is just copy and pasted data from TWU. You can access and manage the data however you want if you simply use their resource and know how to use a mouse.

I put the data in a more user-friendly format. I suggest taking another look.

I could correct all the mistakes people have made in response to this topic, but it will take quite a bit of time.

 

[Power Player]

I could correct all the mistakes people have made in response to this topic, but it will take quite a bit of time.

Yes, you are obviously a copy and paste type of guy, so I could see how a few original sentences could be rather laborious.

 

[Centered]

Posts like that don't give me much of an incentive to read or respond.

 

[Power Player]

If you are so above it all, why do you even post here?

And you obviously read it and responded.

 

[JT_2eighty]

This

Bottom line:

1. Don't recommend strings to others unless you have played with them. Even then, others may not like what you like.
2. Stiffness ratings do not always correlate to how soft a string plays.
3. Use playtest information first and use RSI as a supplement when deciding what string to play next.

This is the short version for this entire thread for anyone joining us or still reading.

Thanks Mikeler!

 

[Centered]

If you are so above it all, why do you even post here?

Good question.

 

[Agent Orynge]

Just. Let. It. Die.

I've already asked the mods to lock this thread, but to no avail. Perhaps if some of you fine gentlemen would do the same, they might indulge us.