Solution to disparity within levels?

[floridatennisdude]

Atlanta local tennis leagues have figured it out much better than USTA.

Ultimate/T2 flex leagues you are basically guaranteed a competitive match. The "first season" players are bumped and ineligible for post season. And they don't wait a calendar year to bump. If you play in the spring & are dominant (or get dominated), you are rated at the level reflective of your results.

ALTA just avoids individual ratings all together. This puts it on the captains to assemble a roster that will be competitive at their flight. Same theory as T2, but on a team basis, the ALTA team gets bumped up or down based on the overall results of the most recent season.

Seems USTA is a slower moving machine, in my experience, since they wait on year end championships before benchmarking the individuals that advance to state/sectional/nationals.

 

[wrxinsc]

good stuff...

http://www.universaltennis.com/
looks like usta is trying it out... http://tennislink.usta.com/tournaments/TournamentHome/Tournament.aspx?T=158193
http://www.si.com/tennis/2015/10/06/universal-tennis-rating-boston-open

this should be looked into in more detail.

 

[penpal]

There is likely truth to this even without manual manipulation of ratings, especially if there are no leagues at the higher level. Having a large and active league at the next level will promote the flow of players between the two levels. Removing the league will put an artificial barrier on the rating of the opponent you can play in the regular season (basically because no one will ever "play up" because there is no league there). The best of the best will still get promoted (more or less into purgatory...) playing only "at level", but it will take longer than if they got some matches at the higher level along the way.

Great point. And those at the top of, say, the 4.0 level might just sort of settle in naturally. They don't have much competition to push them to practice and improve, and so they continue to win most of their 4.0 matches, but maybe their scores aren't as dominant as they could be because they're just doing enough to win.

 

[Startzel]

There is likely truth to this even without manual manipulation of ratings, especially if there are no leagues at the higher level. Having a large and active league at the next level will promote the flow of players between the two levels. Removing the league will put an artificial barrier on the rating of the opponent you can play in the regular season (basically because no one will ever "play up" because there is no league there). The best of the best will still get promoted (more or less into purgatory...) playing only "at level", but it will take longer than if they got some matches at the higher level along the way.

I think it would be interesting to see what percentage of players play up.

And to compare that with the percentage of players at nationals that played up.

 

[J_R_B]

For unranked D3 yes, 4.5 and even 4.0 is ok with many, but if you get a ranked team or a team in the Top half or 1/3 of their conference their Top players are generally 5.0+.

The starting 6 on regionally ranked D3 teams are typically 5.0. On nationally ranked D3 teams, there are many 5.5 caliber players.

 

[J_R_B]

I think it would be interesting to see what percentage of players play up.

And to compare that with the percentage of players at nationals that played up.

When I went to nationals, I didn't play up, but it wasn't to try to protect a rating or anything, but rather, once we realized we had a good enough team to challenge, we put more effort into that team and less on others. When I played up, it was when the 4.0 team wasn't a contender and I could miss a match or two to fill in at 4.5 and not jeopardize the team's playoff chances. I think it's more common to see this. If a non-contending team gets a strong player, they are just as likely to be recruited by the next level team if they can compete at that level. Those people are very likely to be bumped at year end.

 

[Startzel]

When I went to nationals, I didn't play up, but it wasn't to try to protect a rating or anything, but rather, once we realized we had a good enough team to challenge, we put more effort into that team and less on others. When I played up, it was when the 4.0 team wasn't a contender and I could miss a match or two to fill in at 4.5 and not jeopardize the team's playoff chances. I think it's more common to see this. If a non-contending team gets a strong player, they are just as likely to be recruited by the next level team if they can compete at that level. Those people are very likely to be bumped at year end.

Why are your seasons so demanding that you can't play both?

 

[J_R_B]

Why are your seasons so demanding that you can't play both?

Because the matches are on the same days. Playing a couple 4.5 matches would have meant that I couldn't commit to the 4.0 team on those days. Also, we started practicing more to prepare for a playoff run. I'm not 25 anymore, and there is a limit to the amount of tennis I can play before my body breaks down and I get injured. In that year where we knew we had a team that could make a deep run, I wanted to commit only to that team. In other years where the 4.0 team was out of contention, it wasn't a big deal to commit some of my time & energy to 4.5 as well.

 

[Startzel]

Because the matches are on the same days. Playing a couple 4.5 matches would have meant that I couldn't commit to the 4.0 team on those days. Also, we started practicing more to prepare for a playoff run. I'm not 25 anymore, and there is a limit to the amount of tennis I can play before my body breaks down and I get injured. In that year where we knew we had a team that could make a deep run, I wanted to commit only to that team. In other years where the 4.0 team was out of contention, it wasn't a big deal to commit some of my time & energy to 4.5 as well.

That's terrible planning by the LLC. Why would you schedule matches on the same day? Almost every level has a different day of the week in our league so people can always play up.

 

[dlk]

I'd like to see divisions broke down by the quarter, but don't know if my non-tennis-playing city could support that without having 4 team leagues

 

[Alchemy-Z]

That's terrible planning by the LLC. Why would you schedule matches on the same day? Almost every level has a different day of the week in our league so people can always play up.

All of our matches are on the same day for 18+

Men play on Saturdays 3.0 7:00 to 9:00 3.5 9:00 to 11:00 4.0 11:00 to 1:00 4.5 1:00 to 3:00
then the women do the same on Sundays

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Not "should", "could". This statement was taken out of context in an FAQ in an explanation of why you should not freak out and file a grievance JUST because you lost 6-0 6-0, and it's been repeated out of context on here for years. Basically, they said it could be normal to have a 6-0 6-0 result with two players 0.5 apart in DNTRP (i.e. top vs bottom of level). They did not mean in general, the expected result of a match 0.5 apart is 6-0 6-0. I'd guess the "average" result for two players 0.5 apart is more like 6-2 6-2 or 6-3 6-2, but their point is that because match results are a random variable, a 6-0 6-0 outcome is frequent enough not to be considered alarming.

yep.
even 7.0's get bagelled from time to time... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/te...-Brit-bows-ATP-World-Tour-Finals-whimper.html

 

[Startzel]

All of our matches are on the same day for 18+

Men play on Saturdays 3.0 7:00 to 9:00 3.5 9:00 to 11:00 4.0 11:00 to 1:00 4.5 1:00 to 3:00
then the women do the same on Sundays

That's awful. Why do they do it that way?

 

[schmke]

In my area, other than a Women's daytime league and perhaps some 55+/65+, all our matches are scheduled on weekends (Friday evening thru Sunday), but the exact day/time varies based on the facility and their court schedules/availability. So if you are playing 18+ and 40+, or playing on teams at two levels, it is entirely possible that you have matches for your different teams at the same or similar times at different clubs.

 

[brettatk]

Here in Atlanta all the levels play at the same time. For 18+ Men it's 9:30 on Saturdays for Winter league.

 

[OrangePower]

In Norcal the home team for each week gets to determine on which day and time the match will be played. Captains need to schedule home matches before the start of the season and then Norcal publishes the schedule, so everyone knows ahead of time. But it does mean that there is no consistency from week to week.

In terms of the different levels, that becomes up to the home club/facility. Some clubs like to have a set day/time each week per team for their home matches, some clubs mix it up.

What it all boils down to is that you can't tell until just before the start of the season when the schedules are posted, and even then chances are that there will be weeks when say the 4.5 and 5.0 team will have matches on the same day, and some weeks when matches will be on different days.

 

[Startzel]

This makes me feel fortunate with our local league.

Monday - 3.5
Tuesday - 4.0
Wednesday - 4.5
Thursday - 3.0

 

[OrangePower]

This makes me feel fortunate with our local league.

Monday - 3.5
Tuesday - 4.0
Wednesday - 4.5
Thursday - 3.0

Sounds great!

Unless you're a 4.5 who generally can't make Wednesdays, etc.
Or a 5.0.

It makes planning harder when each week's match is at a different day/time, but one benefit is that there are likely to be at least some days/times that work for each team member, no matter their schedules.

 

[dlk]

Sounds great!

Unless you're a 4.5 who generally can't make Wednesdays, etc.
Or a 5.0.

It makes planning harder when each week's match is at a different day/time, but one benefit is that there are likely to be at least some days/times that work for each team member, no matter their schedules.

My region does this as well. So I'm only available every-other-week (as I work a rotating schedule).

 

[Startzel]

Sounds great!

Unless you're a 4.5 who generally can't make Wednesdays, etc.
Or a 5.0.

It makes planning harder when each week's match is at a different day/time, but one benefit is that there are likely to be at least some days/times that work for each team member, no matter their schedules.

How is this any different than if you're a 4.5 who's not available on Saturday?

 

[OrangePower]

How is this any different than if you're a 4.5 who's not available on Saturday?

In my area, our 4.5 matches could be Sat am one week, Sun pm the next, Thurs eve the next, etc. So if I for example generally am not available on say Saturdays, there are still likely to be other matches that I can be available for. Whereas when all the matches are on the same day/time, if that particular day/time does not work with your schedule, you're completely out of luck.

 

[Max G.]

Yeah, I'm in Norcal too, and from a player's perspective I think it works pretty well. I sign up for a league, and then I see the schedule and fill out my availability. The matches are all over the place - some are on weekends and some on weekdays, some early some late, etc.

I'd get off work pretty late so I'd never sign up as available for any weekday match that was earlier than 7pm, and I'd never sign up for the late afternoon matches on Saturday because usually I'd go out to dinner on Saturday and didn't want to be tired for it. Other folks would take those days/times. It also means that having two leagues going at once was usually not a problem - most matches would be scheduled at different days/times anyway.

I can definitely see the benefit of having a fixed day/time, it makes it easier to have a schedule. I bet that's better for the more serious teams that want to get into a rhythm, want to have practices, etc.

 

[scotus]

Here in Belgium we have many more rating levels, and people still get crushed 6-0 6-0.

Well, didn't Djokovic double-bagel Berdych last year?

These things happen.

 

[Alchemy-Z]

That's awful. Why do they do it that way?

I think they actually let the captains vote on it - also the real factor is probably most of the high schools do not have their own on site courts and use public courts in our area and they play and practice on week nights...even the local college teams play/practice on public courts during the week - so adult tennis pretty much is stuck with weekends and maybe monday nights

 

[J_R_B]

That's terrible planning by the LLC. Why would you schedule matches on the same day? Almost every level has a different day of the week in our league so people can always play up.

Because matches are on weekends, and we don't have 5 day weekends. Playing during the week would be much worse because then I wouldn't be able to play much at all.

 

[brettatk]

Since I only play one level, I much prefer the system they implement in Atlanta. I know all the matches will be at the same time every weekend and I won't have to play at night. Not that I can't see at night (although there are many on my team who can't), you never know how good a courts lights will be. If I wanted to play multiple levels, it would be a little inconvenient, but you could still do it by picking and choosing what weeks you wanted to play for each level.

 

[Gazelle]

Well, didn't Djokovic double-bagel Berdych last year?

These things happen.

But it happens far more often than Djokovic double bagelling a fellow top tenner.

 

[Startzel]

Because matches are on weekends, and we don't have 5 day weekends. Playing during the week would be much worse because then I wouldn't be able to play much at all.

Interesting. I much prefer the week nights. You get off work at 5, have time to see the family or run errands and be at the court by 7:30.

Then you have the weekends for kids soccer matches/other sports. So much nicer to have the weekend of free time.

 

[heninfan99]

Not enough 5.0s to make a true & large 5.0 league so the better players play 4.5.
There is no fix.

 

[J011yroger]

LI has 8 5.0 teams, NY Metro has 6 5.0 teams.

Mostly full of former DI Davis Cup and ATP players.

Where do you live?

J

 

[OrangePower]

Interesting. I much prefer the week nights. You get off work at 5, have time to see the family or run errands and be at the court by 7:30.

Then you have the weekends for kids soccer matches/other sports. So much nicer to have the weekend of free time.

Glad that it works for you, but would not work as well for those who don't have a 9 to 5 job. People in the restaurant business for example would be out of luck if all matches for their level were on a night that they work.

Although the way we do it in norcal has some cons as well, so either way there are trade offs.

 

[Startzel]

Glad that it works for you, but would not work as well for those who don't have a 9 to 5 job. People in the restaurant business for example would be out of luck if all matches for their level were on a night that they work.

Although the way we do it in norcal has some cons as well, so either way there are trade offs.

Fortunately people in the restaurant business have much more flexibility than those of us with traditional 9-5s.

 

[purple-n-gold]

trolla 10 char

 

[beernutz]

Does anyone know if the participation numbers for USTA leagues are rising or falling over the entire US?

Personally I am cutting back on my USTA league play in favor of local leagues but not because of any percieved disparity of skill within levels. I have played USTA since 2005 and I have never double bageled anyone nor have I ever been handed a double bagel. As far as I can remember I only have two 0 and 1 wins in singles and both were over players playing up.

I have encountered some sandbagging but the system seems to correct those at least by the next year.

 

[schmke]

Participation appears to be down ever so slightly. I'll try to have some specific stats soon.

 

[schmke]

Started a new thread for the participation subject. See http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/usta-league-participation-numbers.551009/