Some Hard Truths

[TripleATeam]

• The GOAT race doesn't come down to only slams. There are other events for a reason.
• Finals reached are only a benefit to the player, not a detriment. Going 10-5 in finals is better than being 10-0.
• Results aren't a measure of form. A poor form player can have a tight match and a great form player can be outplayed by someone playing even better. A 5-setter isn't necessarily tough if the loser was lucky to even be in the 5th set.
• Weak era arguments just come down to the question "does everyone else suck or is [Player X] that much better than everyone?". People will always pick the narrative that makes their favorite look better.
• Once the Big 3 are gone everyone will miss the GOAT race. The narrative was fantastic and made every slam that much more interesting. Without it, a little something is missing.
• Winning the Olympics is bigger than winning the ATP finals. (Happens 1x every 4 years, so winning it is big)
• Not winning the Olympics isn't as bad as not winning the ATP finals. (Only ~3-4 chances to win it over a career as opposed to 12-16 WTFs.)
• Tennis is bigger than the player you're a fan of. Enjoy the tennis even when they lose.
• Tournaments leading up to slams are indicative of form, but aren't be-all, end-all. If Rafa loses a clay event or any of the top 5 lose early in the American HC swing, be prepared for them to still go far at the next slam.

Those are really the ones I wanted to say. Feel free to share more!

 

[Steve0904]

Don't agree that the Olympics is bigger than the WTF's. From a sporting perspective yes, but for the tennis aficionado I don't think that's true. I agree that it's become a big event since Nadal won it because he's arguably the greatest player ever so that helps increase the popularity of winning it. But let me just say that I think if you're using the OSG as a TB'er in the GOAT debate then you're doing the debate all wrong. Just my opinion though.

I don't think it's true that everyone will necessarily miss the GOAT race either, but I understand what you're trying to say so fair enough. Agree with everything else.

 

[BrooklynNY]

• Results aren't a measure of form.

I feel like this is a major point.

Many people equate best results with prime, I don't think that's necessarily true as a whole .

For example, Federer's best results are 04-07, his prime lasted longer. Same with Nadal and Djokovic.

 

[TheAssassin]

Personally I don't think I will miss the GOAT race when it's over, as much as I want Djokovic to win it under most criteria. I'm fine with embracing more unpredictability in the future. Olympics - WTF comparison in tennis, meh we beat that dead horse a hundred times before, no reason to do it again.

The rest sounds about right to me.

 

[Bartelby]

The GOAT is a matter of opinion when speaking of the current BigThree. When taking past figures into account it is a matter of historical speculation, as with Williams v Court.

 

[mavsman149]

The GOAT race is fun for sure although I don’t think it’ll ever be definitive either I 100% agree that saying it’s all about the slams is a big mistake.

While I’ll miss the GOAT race I became a huge fan of tennis in 99-00ish and I loved the unpredictability of that era too!

 

[Tennis_Hands]

And now, some real "hard" truths:

1) there is no such a thing as "GOAT"
2) there are no miracles, including physical ones (Santa is also not real, sorry kids!)
3) mental strength is a compound result from the player realising that there are things working in his favour
4) in Tennis younger ATGs supplant older ATGs
5) tennis fans in GPPD are generally oblivious for most real aspects of tennis, be it because they don't play the sport, because they have faulty perceptions on multiple matters concerning the sport, or because they are not interested in the sport beyond supporting their favourite
6) almost every abbreviation linked to an achievement that is traditionally used around here is a journalist or fanbases invention
7) your feelings do not produce anything concerning the professional players

 

[zipplock]

GOAT will always be subjective as we will never agree on which metrics to use.

Fed is GOAT!!!!!!!!!!

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

The GOAT race doesn't come down to only slams. There are other events for a reason.

Certainly, but slams are paramount in the modern period, for better or worse.

Finals reached are only a benefit to the player, not a detriment. Going 10-5 in finals is better than being 10-0.

Sure. You can deduct a bit of greatness for playing a bad final but it's still better than a bad semifinal.

Results aren't a measure of form. A poor form player can have a tight match and a great form player can be outplayed by someone playing even better. A 5-setter isn't necessarily tough if the loser was lucky to even be in the 5th set.

Mostly yes, obviously there's a relationship between form and results/scorelines but it's far from linear.

Weak era arguments just come down to the question "does everyone else suck or is [Player X] that much better than everyone?". People will always pick the narrative that makes their favorite look better.

For the most part, but we can visually appreciate and evaluate the tennis being played irrespective of fan allegiance. Weak and strong exist, the point is how you go about establishing them.

Once the Big 3 are gone everyone will miss the GOAT race. The narrative was fantastic and made every slam that much more interesting. Without it, a little something is missing.

I sure won't be missing the lack of high-level competitive tussles in slams that's prevalent recently.

Winning the Olympics is bigger than winning the ATP finals. (Happens 1x every 4 years, so winning it is big)

Winning the Olympics carries a non-tennis-specific value so its position is always arguable as it's not easily comparable. All other titles are about points and money, the Olympics is about medals. I say its value strongly depends on how medal-rich the country you're playing for is. To Monica Puig, winning Puerto Rico's first ever gold was bigger than a slam. I think Nadal would prefer to have 1 YEC 0 gold than 1 gold 0 YEC, even if he shan't say that. Besides the medal-hunting nature of Olympics means singles=doubles since gold=gold, so Nadal would remain a gold medalist anyway, like Federer is.

Not winning the Olympics isn't as bad as not winning the ATP finals.

Yeah due to the frequency difference.

Tennis is bigger than the player you're a fan of. Enjoy the tennis even when they lose.

I'm looking out for good tennis to savour, sadly it has dwindled.

Tournaments leading up to slams are indicative of form, but aren't be-all, end-all

Yep. May not even be telling, see Sampras.

 

[Deleted member 762343]

I wouldn't say results aren't a measure of form, rather it's one of the measures of a player's form.

 

[jussumman]

• The GOAT race doesn't come down to only slams. There are other events for a reason.
• Finals reached are only a benefit to the player, not a detriment. Going 10-5 in finals is better than being 10-0.
• Results aren't a measure of form. A poor form player can have a tight match and a great form player can be outplayed by someone playing even better. A 5-setter isn't necessarily tough if the loser was lucky to even be in the 5th set.
• Weak era arguments just come down to the question "does everyone else suck or is [Player X] that much better than everyone?". People will always pick the narrative that makes their favorite look better.
• Once the Big 3 are gone everyone will miss the GOAT race. The narrative was fantastic and made every slam that much more interesting. Without it, a little something is missing.
• Winning the Olympics is bigger than winning the ATP finals. (Happens 1x every 4 years, so winning it is big)
• Not winning the Olympics isn't as bad as not winning the ATP finals. (Only ~3-4 chances to win it over a career as opposed to 12-16 WTFs.)
• Tennis is bigger than the player you're a fan of. Enjoy the tennis even when they lose.
• Tournaments leading up to slams are indicative of form, but aren't be-all, end-all. If Rafa loses a clay event or any of the top 5 lose early in the American HC swing, be prepared for them to still go far at the next slam.

Those are really the ones I wanted to say. Feel free to share more!

I agree with a lot of your points and disagree with some. It's because the Olympics is every 4 years and you could be lucky that year, healthy or in the zone, I didn't include it in my list.

Anyway the Goat debate IS both challenging and fun due to the nature of the sport.

 

[FlamingCheeto]

#1. It's just a game and doesn't really matter in the scheme of life the universe and everything, so just be kind to each other mmmkay.

 

[Slowtwitcher]

Anyone that brings up the Olympics=Murray fan

 

[Deleted member 748597]

1. Slams
2. Weeks at #1
3. YE #1
4. YEC

It's also important how dominant the #1 was. And yeah, the competition too.

 

[cortado]

I'd like the Big 3 to set such a ridiculous slam record that nobody can possibly beat it, allowing everybody to stop caring about 'how many slams' and focus more on aesthetics, skill etc.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

#1. It's just a game and doesn't really matter in the scheme of life the universe and everything, so just be kind to each other mmmkay.

Doesn't work because actually nothing matters in the grand scheme as humans are an irrelevant species living on an irrelevant planet in an irrelevant system in an irrelevant corner of an irrelevant galaxy in a third-rate supercluster, and the "Universe" itself may well be a forgettable iteration in a multiplex of multiverses. So actually do whatever because the only hard truth is you were born and you will die, enjoy yololo.

 

[Red Rick]

Stop counting results linearly, square them at least. i.e. Masters win is 25% of a Slam win, Slam final is 36% of a win. Then have a bonus system for records and special achievements.

 

[Deleted member 748597]

Doesn't work because actually nothing matters in the grand scheme as humans are an irrelevant species living at an irrelevant planet in an irrelevant system in an irrelevant corner of an irrelevant galaxy in a third-rate supercluster, and the "Universe" itself may well be a forgettable iteration in a multiplex of multiverses. So actually do whatever because the only hard truth is you were born and you will die, enjoy yololo.

The best post on TTW.

 

[PilotPete]

The big point that most people of lower intelligence will not understand is that 10-5 is indeed better than 10-0.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

I'd like the Big 3 to set such a ridiculous slam record that nobody can possibly beat it, allowing everybody to stop caring about 'how many slams' and focus more on aesthetics, skill etc.

you think that would happen?
more like, whoever is the winningest is da best, everyone else suxx in comparison

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Stop counting results linearly, square them at least. i.e. Masters win is 25% of a Slam win, Slam final is 36% of a win. Then have a bonus system for records and special achievements.

peak level is over 9000% of a Slam win

 

[Third Serve]

Fed isn’t that bad of a player

 

[BGod]

Another hard fact is nobody after the Big 3 will have an objective argument of being the GOAT. They will dilute the Slams to fit growing trends. Whether that means eliminating Bo5 entirely or having Bo3 in earlier rounds, super tiebreaks, fast5 sets, etc. That will definitively end any objective discussions even if a future player wins double the Slams. Like with the concept of idiocracy, professional sport will be going down hill across the board in a regression due to competing entertainment not to mention E-sports. Eventually only old timers will even care to watch live sporting events.

 

[mike danny]

I feel like this is a major point.

Many people equate best results with prime, I don't think that's necessarily true as a whole .

For example, Federer's best results are 04-07, his prime lasted longer. Same with Nadal and Djokovic.

I mean, everyone agrees it did. It lasted until early 2010, IMO.

 

[Deleted member 748597]

Also there are no young ATGs.

 

[Red Rick]

Another hard fact is nobody after the Big 3 will have an objective argument of being the GOAT.

There will be objective arguments, there will be objectively better cases for one player over the other most likely. There will not really be consensus.

And IMO to pretend there cannot be a GOAT is just holier than thou ********. I admit it's toxic to care. But saying there can't be one is just a load of crap, especially when the 3 candidates played the exact same time period.

 

[Red Rick]

Linkin Parks final album was utter garbage and Chester Benningtons suicide doesn't change that.

 

[Beckerserve]

Don't agree that the Olympics is bigger than the WTF's. From a sporting perspective yes, but for the tennis aficionado I don't think that's true. I agree that it's become a big event since Nadal won it because he's arguably the greatest player ever so that helps increase the popularity of winning it. But let me just say that I think if you're using the OSG as a TB'er in the GOAT debate then you're doing the debate all wrong. Just my opinion though.

I don't think it's true that everyone will necessarily miss the GOAT race either, but I understand what you're trying to say so fair enough. Agree with everything else.

For the olympics became massive when Graf won it. Probably because she won all 4 Majors so then media coverage of her Olympic win for me put it into Major category for a player.
While OP is right regarding slam race sadly the past 25 years or so the slam count got so hyped by the media that they have created the perception that only slams matter. The first thing people say about Federer is 20 slam record holder. When actually 105 overall titles is a bigger achievement.

 

[Slowtwitcher]

Linkin Parks final album was utter garbage and Chester Benningtons suicide doesn't change that.

I'm not sure who Linkin Parks is, but I know that Linkin Park together with Limp Bizkit killed Rock and Roll.

 

[Hitman]

1 - We argue over two people hitting a fuzzy yellow ball over a net
2 - We don't get replicas of our favorites trophies for being fans after their wins
3 - We could all do with some green tea

 

[FlamingCheeto]

Doesn't work because actually nothing matters in the grand scheme as humans are an irrelevant species living on an irrelevant planet in an irrelevant system in an irrelevant corner of an irrelevant galaxy in a third-rate supercluster, and the "Universe" itself may well be a forgettable iteration in a multiplex of multiverses. So actually do whatever because the only hard truth is you were born and you will die, enjoy yololo.

incorrect.
Love is the only thing that matters in the galaxy.

 

[jussumman]

What would you guys weigh YE#1 verse a Slam win? Would they count the same or which one more value?

 

[FlamingCheeto]

1 - We argue over two people hitting a fuzzy yellow ball over a net
2 - We don't get replicas of our favorites trophies for being fans after their wins
3 - We could all do with some green tea

4 - He is like a piece of Iron
5 - If he dies, he dies
6 - you can't win
7 - happy birthday Paulie
8. - there's no easy way out
9 - hearts on fire

 

[weakera]

A hard truth for many: Nadal is GOAT

 

[Hitman]

4 - He is like a piece of Iron
5 - If he dies, he dies
6 - you can't win
7 - happy birthday Paulie
8. - there's no easy way out
9 - hearts on fire

I'd buy that for a dollar.

 

[Deleted member 748597]

1 - We argue over two people hitting a fuzzy yellow ball over a net
2 - We don't get replicas of our favorites trophies for being fans after their wins
3 - We could all do with some green tea

4 - Djokovic actually sends me 10% of his prize money. Go Djokovic. I want more money.

 

[Sysyphus]

• The GOAT race doesn't come down to only slams. There are other events for a reason.

Yes, there are other events for a twofold reason:

A) We the fans desire to be entertained more than 8 weeks a year.

B) The tour owners want to profit as much as possible off this desire, and so they are always looking to maximize the number of events that they can cram into a calendar, utilizing marketing techniques such as "big title" tallies or NextGen Race and other fanciful names in order to increase the perceived importance of these numerous tournaments.

Tennis tournaments like Shanghai or Hamburg do not exist to help tip the scales of a so-called "GOAT race", they exist because they serve A) and B).
On the flip-side, the idea of a 'GOAT race' in itself is so prominent because it too serves A) and B). It helps the fans have some narrative and drama to get excited about, helping us keep up our appetite for entertainment, and it helps the owner class profit off of this appetite.

In reality there is no definite answer to how we should value the importance of non-slam events in the "GOAT race". It's a rather spurious and subjective exercise.

 

[Slowtwitcher]

Here's a hard truth:

- No matter how many Slams Djoke wins before he retires, the only way he'll be seen as the GOAT is if he wins the Grand Slam.

 

[FlamingCheeto]

4 - Djokovic actually sends me 10% of his prize money. Go Djokovic. I want more money.

He sends me .01% and I'm still mega rich.

 

[Hitman]

What would you guys weigh YE#1 verse a Slam win? Would they count the same or which one more value?

Sampras weighed both slams and YE1 equally. They were his biggest targets and he treated both with the same priority.

 

[Red Rick]

Yes, there are other events for a twofold reason:

A) We the fans desire to be entertained more than 8 weeks a year.

B) The tour owners want to profit as much as possible off this desire, and so they are always looking to maximize the number of events that they can cram into a calendar, utilizing marketing techniques such as "big title" tallies or NextGen Race and other fanciful names in order to increase the perceived importance of these numerous tournaments.

Tennis tournaments like Shanghai or Hamburg do not exist to help tip the scales of a so-called "GOAT race", they exist because they serve A) and B).
On the flip-side, the idea of a 'GOAT race' in itself is so prominent because it too serves A) and B). It helps the fans have some narrative and drama to get excited about, helping us keep up our appetite for entertainment, and it helps the owner class profit off of this appetite.

In reality there is no definite answer to how we should value the importance of non-slam events in the "GOAT race". It's a rather spurious and subjective exercise.

But my TV says I should exercise more.

 

[BGod]

There will be objective arguments, there will be objectively better cases for one player over the other most likely. There will not really be consensus.

And IMO to pretend there cannot be a GOAT is just holier than thou ********. I admit it's toxic to care. But saying there can't be one is just a load of crap, especially when the 3 candidates played the exact same time period.

You don't think everything outside of Slams being Bo3, 3 of 4 Majors having 5th set tiebreaker and ongoing discussions of Bo3 early rounds is a sign of times changing for the worse? Not to mention the massive drop off in emerging talent? It's kind of like boxing actually. Nobody is smelling Ali's gym socks moving forward.

 

[FlamingCheeto]

hard truth: No American Male will win a grand slam until 2045 when Jaden Agassi's son Rafa Agassi wins the USO.

 

[Druss]

Agree on most things with OP, except not sure about OG being greater than WTF. Also re "Enjoy the tennis even when they lose" ...it's not that easy! Especially when your fav player loses a major F by a whisker, after choking on match points on an otherwise formidable serve, and being the better player during the match.

 

[Red Rick]

You don't think everything outside of Slams being Bo3, 3 of 4 Majors having 5th set tiebreaker and ongoing discussions of Bo3 early rounds is a sign of times changing for the worse? Not to mention the massive drop off in emerging talent? It's kind of like boxing actually. Nobody is smelling Ali's gym socks moving forward.

Slams are still Bo5.

Now why newer athletes are worse? That's a different and depressing question.

 

[Nadal>>>>>Federer]

Hard truth;

creating a thread about hard truths in an attempt to change the narrative of GOAT race before Fed gets passed does not work

 

[PETEhammer]

>Fedr is not GOAT

 

[FlamingCheeto]

Very hard Truth: Tiebreaks in Grand SLams SUCK and are not ever a good thing and never will be cool! (the only exception being the USO where they've always been there) WImby and AO ruined it.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

incorrect.
Love is the only thing that matters in the galaxy.

welcome the world with open arms and you'll get stabbed sooner than later, sad but true

 

[FlamingCheeto]

welcome the world with open arms and you'll get stabbed sooner than later, sad but true

do my dirty work, scapegoat