Some HD footage of my hitting session yesterday. Please critique!

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by CornOnTheCob, Jul 8, 2018.

  1. CornOnTheCob

    CornOnTheCob New User

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    Trying to establish my destined dominance within the Talk Tennis community and establish credibility. I will be tennis hokage one day BELIEVE IT!



    edit: Some more hitting!



    Anyway here are a couple of clips I took from my hitting session yesterday. Effort level was at about a 6/10 as I've been running as much as I can in my spare time and my legs just haven't recovered yet. Going back to my 2hbh that I took a break from for a while and I think the stroke looks pretty good.

    One thing is that my forehand feels all sorts of messed up, and it might be because of the way the ball machine fed the balls or me not choosing the right strike zone, but I think I'm either late or cramped for space. My elbow looks pretty far in but so was Nalbandian's. Any suggestions?
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018 at 11:20 AM
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    #1
  2. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    #2
  3. CornOnTheCob

    CornOnTheCob New User

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  4. CornOnTheCob

    CornOnTheCob New User

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    aw yes thank you mr jo11yroger sir, it's been a dream of mine for you to comment on one of my threads I am so humbled and blessed. do you think my stroke good?
     
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  5. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Look at the drum and look at your stroke.

    J
     
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  6. CornOnTheCob

    CornOnTheCob New User

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    Oh ok I get it now. Yeah, I have always had a problem with over/under rotation with my body. I'm finally playing on a consistent basis now so I hope repetitions will help me eventually sort the issue out.
     
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  7. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Think of the drum as your chest and the string as your arm. You stop turning the drum and the string goes faster.

    J
     
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  8. Checkmate

    Checkmate Hall of Fame

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    Nice to see your passion for the game. Keep it up.
     
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  9. CornOnTheCob

    CornOnTheCob New User

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    Thank you for the advice mate. Really appreciate it. I've been reading a lot of your posts since like 2014 when I started lurking here and one day I hope to attain your notoriety and maybe your forehand.
     
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  10. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Keep at it, you'll do fine. Take video directly from the side and check your body alignment at contact.

    J
     
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  11. TenFanLA

    TenFanLA Legend

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    Good hitting. Agree with Jolly on your FH. Be the monkey drum.
    Your racket head at 2hbh takeback is very horizontal with virtually no leverage. The racket head should be above the hands a la Nalbandian.
    I believe that is a reason why Djokovic's 2hbh dominated Edmund's and Nishikori's destroyed Krygio's 2hbh yesterday.
     
    #11
  12. ByeByePoly

    ByeByePoly Legend

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    Did you see @J011yroger 's little brother Struff play Fed? :p
     
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  13. Curious

    Curious Hall of Fame

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    I can spot it right away from personal experience: late prep/unit turn every single time. We have a weird habit of watching the ball travel up to the bounce and doing nothing and then all of a sudden 'oh shht it's really coming and I gotta do something!' Start turning as soon as you see the bloody ball coming out of the ball machine.
     
    #13
  14. TenFanLA

    TenFanLA Legend

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    Yes, Jolly's brother has a bigger monkey drum than his, and hits harder.
     
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  15. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Do I really look or play like him?

    J
     
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  16. ByeByePoly

    ByeByePoly Legend

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    @CornOnTheCob ... good hitting. I fire all ball machines and hitting partners that give me that high of balls. ;)

    I will leave that monkey drum stuff to jolly and tenfan :D ... but will comment on 2hbh. I think it looks good. I think tenfan missed that you simply get to good backswing position from low pendulum unit turn swing (Borg did, Gilles Simon). If you check backswing (7:03, 7:06) ... the racquet head is up similar height to Djokovic. Djokovic (and most) just come across with the hands and racquet high getting to that position.

    I don't know what you are shooting for at contact, but fyi your left arm doesn't get all the way straight. I have been shooting for bent/straight, but sometimes have "some" flex in left arm at contact. I also see you bend that left arm quickly after contact on some shots. I do that sometimes also, and find if I get my left arm totally straight and hold that through extension toward net/opponent, shot feels more solid. Part of that might just be you are hitting such a high ball. I haven't videoed myself hitting that high a ball. Obviously big $ has been made with all arm configurations (think Venus Williams bent/bent chicken wing), so it's all valid ... just preference.
     
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  17. ByeByePoly

    ByeByePoly Legend

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    All guys with hats backward look the same. :D But all kidding aside, I did think of you watching him play. Similar looking build (he is 6' 5"), something about the mannerisms, big dog game ... no messing around... 130 mph serve and the hat on backwards. I was hoping he really was your little brother, because it would be nice if he taught us how to hit that 2hbh. :cool:
     
    #17
  18. Wise one

    Wise one Semi-Pro

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    Everything you are doing is wrong. Cut out the hopping. Use eastern grip, not the abomination you use now. Use one-handed backhand. Come to the net on short balls.

    Watch Panatta:



    Note in particular how effortlessly he stokes the ball. Borg looks good too.

    Again, watch Ashe dismantle the harder-hitting Connors at Wimby, 1975.

     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
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  19. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    I kind of see it, slightly awkward, slow take back then throws himself into the ball, kind of crowded on the BH.

    I'd sell my soul for his volleys though.

    J
     
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  20. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Legend

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    For the forehand I think Djokovic is a very good model but he has much more flexibility than most people. Don't flex, twist, as much as Djokovic.

    Separation - imagine a line between the two shoulders, imagine a line between the two hips, (this is the pelvis).

    Find Djokovic videos from somewhat an above angle to see his shoulder angle. Wimbledon broadcasts might show. (I can no longer do single frame with the new Xfinity XR11 remote. The Motorola remote worked great. A big step backwards for seeing what is in athletic video!)

    Separation on forehand on take back - The shoulders line should go back farther than the hips line. ITF presentations on forehand discuss and illustrate. Search: forehand separation ITF
    Search: forehand separation pictures.

    Forward Start - The hips should start their forward rotation motion just before the shoulders. This stretches trunk muscles. It also twists the spine so it may increase risk of injury for some people especially in some positions.

    When these motions are done the arm and racket will lag and, I assume, will usefully stretch shoulder and other muscles.

    Don't use the above words as instructions but more of a guide when you are viewing videos. Use videos of forehands that are not easy warm up type forehands but heavier pace. Avoid forehands where the player is under pressure. Compare these points using the same camera angles for high level forehands and your stokes. You need high speed videos to see the faster parts of tennis stokes such as the racket acceleration to the ball. The parts above were slower parts involving bigger body parts.

    The off arm - this should be straight after take back, accelerated rapidly and brought into the body with good timing. If done, this off arm motion will speed up the body rotation and add a bit to racket head speed. This is very clear in many high level strokes especially when the player is not pressured and intends to hit pace. Easy to do. Don't video your strokes when tired.

    Here is a video showing two basic styles of forehand, the linear and the circular. The body twist and take back shown in the the video below are not the more exaggerated model that your will see with Djokovic.


    Some players do the circular forehand and come off the ground.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
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  21. CornOnTheCob

    CornOnTheCob New User

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    Thanks mate. The last videos I posted you noted that the lighting indoors wasn't great so there was too much motion blur. Do you think this video is better in that regards? I forgot my camera and used my phone, but it looks like quality was lost in between importing and exporting, but it could be that the quality of my phone camera isn't that great.
     
    #21
  22. CornOnTheCob

    CornOnTheCob New User

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    Typically depends on how much spin I'm trying to put on the ball/contact point. I think I hit most lower backhands with a straighter arm vs. defensive or high ball backhands. I typically like hitting my regular backhand a little flatter but if I'm hitting loopy my left arm will either stay bend or start bending earlier.
     
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  23. CornOnTheCob

    CornOnTheCob New User

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    I actually come to the net a lot during points since I played doubles all through high school and I have pretty good confidence in my court/net positioning and my volleys. I also used to hit pretty eastern but after a long break from tennis I could never get the same stroke back and reverted to a bend arm semi-western forehand. Been trying to learn the one-handed backhand but it hasn't been panning out that great for me, it's still very inconsistent. Do you think growing my hair out and wearing a headband instead of a hat would help? I've been eyeing some wooden racquets that I saw at Goodwill and might have to give them a try.
     
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  24. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Legend

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    Ball Machine Set Up for Slower Easy Balls. For ball machines with a lower height ball shot out of the machine:

    1) place the ball machine around the T
    2) aimed down the middle
    3) use lower pace setting
    4) adjust elevation to get height after bounce that you want around the baseline

    There is an issue for high speed video, recording long periods of dead time between strokes that take time to edited out. Recording only two strokes and then viewing on court in one approach to cut down on editing. You can also pick up obvious flaws right away.
     
    #24
  25. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    I find if I use a video trimmer I lose quality as compared to just uploading unedited but it's probably just because the app I use is crappy.

    J
     
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  26. CornOnTheCob

    CornOnTheCob New User

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    Sounds good I will set up my machine that way the next time I take video and be sure to bring my better camera (Nikon J3 just in case that helps). I think that the camera has preset "sport video" mode which I'm postulating is a really fast burst of pictures. Do you think taking a full video and then slowing it down frame by frame (assuming 60fps) would be better? In my mind it just seems that using the high speed mode with this camera compromises overall quality.
     
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  27. CornOnTheCob

    CornOnTheCob New User

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    I used iMovie and exporting 12 minutes of edited video on my Macbook takes like an hour if all the export settings are left on high quality. I left the video quality setting on high but switched compression time to faster so that could have been the issue.

    You prolly answered this in the actual Pickle Wooden Racquet thread but how did you like playing with the woodie? I noticed that you were getting a lot of net clearance and was wondering if that was a conscious thing you were doing or if it was just the camera angle.
     
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  28. ByeByePoly

    ByeByePoly Legend

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    Yep ... that's what I suspected. I find if I hit a topspin lob, my arms just go to bent/bent ... nothing I learned consciously. Yandell said players like Safin would vary arm positions depending on shot. I haved mixed feelings if that variation is good for me as a rec player. I can hit a ts lob with the straight left arm, so in the interest of "rec player repeatability", maybe best to stick with one. I have the same question on ros split grip. I do not use a split grip on groundstrokes, but found out practicing open stance 2hbh ros, it made it very easy/solid to hit cc ts ros from add side. My usual thinking is the less grip changes the better, but ros is a one-time hit at the start of point.

    So did you already know you got to your 2hbh backswing from low? After looking at all the valid pro 2hbh backswings, including Rios with no drop ... I come to the conclusion that the position at the back of the slot (drop or not) is all that matters. Just get there ... on time.
     
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  29. CornOnTheCob

    CornOnTheCob New User

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    So I played doubles in high school and mostly from the ad-side so I hit a lot of low, abbreviated backhands and the form has just stuck. I do use split grip on ROS, and against most rec players I tend to stand pretty well within the baseline when returning. Regardless, I hardly take a full swing when returning and end up just using the initial velocity of the serve and just block the ball back. I do notice that whenever I'm rallying my right hand grip tends to go continental and I just change it when I have to hit a forehand. I think this came from watching a lot of Bautista-Agut matches when I was just starting out because I liked how compact his strokes looked.

    edit: also I should note that I do find "repeat-ability" of strokes an attractive sentiment there are situations where you can't just hit the same stroke the same way every time just based on timing/position/ball position etc.
     
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  30. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    I like playing with wooden racquets very much, one summer a bunch of us all brought our wood frames out and played almost every weekend.

    It's too risky to play aggressively from the back with wood and I don't want to make it a contest of running and hitting so my best strategy is to keep it high and deep until I get something to attack.

    I usually slice most of my backhands with wood but the topspin felt good that day so I stuck with it.

    J
     
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  31. ByeByePoly

    ByeByePoly Legend

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    Good ... maybe split grip ros is common. Once I get back to playing more, the conversion to 2hbh ros is my biggest hurdle. You don't just flip a switch on a 40+ year 1hbh block/slice ros.

    I have found I am making progress on an abbreviated open stance 2hbh ros the few times I have hit lately as long as I don't abbreviate to the point of shoulder not getting under the chin. If I try to mainly arm it ... not good.
     
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  32. CornOnTheCob

    CornOnTheCob New User

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    I tend to block/slice more forehand returns than backhands just because it's harder to mess up my backhand. Even if I do get a good look at a floating second serve to the backhand I'll rarely take a big swing, open stance or closed stance.
     
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  33. rogerroger917

    rogerroger917 Hall of Fame

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    Blame oscar wegner. Ruined all 3.0 to 4.0 ntrp srrokes for internet coached players.
     
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  34. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Legend

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    At first, the video looked blurry/low resolution.

    I right clicked on the video and selected "stats for nerds". The video was being displayed as 640 x 240 @ 30 fps or so. I clicked on the Youtube gear icon and changed the display to 720 HD or so. This improved my Youtube display making it much sharper, 1200+ x something.

    I don't understand why certain lower resolutions pop into these video processing systems. ?

    If you have 50 Hz electrical power in Australia(?) and your camera records at 25 fps and Youtube converts the frame rate to 30 fps for playback.....???????

    It looks very good regarding motion blur. At 30 fps what was the tilt of the racket just before impact? Pros are maybe 5-10 d closed for top spin drives. You don't often catch that with 30 fps. You take a frame every 33 milliseconds and faster changing motions require more frames per second. The issues that I mentioned are slow enough to say some things....I guess.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
    #34
  35. ChaelAZ

    ChaelAZ Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, from the few pics/vids I have seen, a bit. More so that guy that was at the 4.5 nationals here I messaged you about. That guys was your doppelganger.
     
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  36. ChaelAZ

    ChaelAZ Hall of Fame

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    Good hitting overall and thanks for posting. I would suggest speeding up feed more just to keep a better rythm for the split step and movement. You seem to lose cadence overall with that space...although a split step with a ball machine is usually a bit late on the feed anyway, but still worth practicing.
     
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  37. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Legend

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    The original recording frames are important. I'm not following the specs on your cameras. What is the highest speed video that you have? For looking at many ground strokes 60 fps with small motion blur is pretty good. If you want to look at how the racket impacts the ball, higher frame rates are better.

    Bursts of still pictures may not be as good because they do not repeat or are coordinated with the strokes unless you have someone to take your pictures. Also there may be distortions in the high resolution pictures due to electronic scanning effects. Search: Nikon J3 golf swing slow motion
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
    #37
  38. dennis

    dennis Rookie

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    On your backhand side, sometimes you don't 'stay' with your shot, instead you're falling away. Try keeping your balance and have your momentum going into and with the shot.

    Your forehand doesn't looked cramped to me (though 5:29 is) but your first move is quite late after the feed. Also you hit angles and low over the net and other times really high and deep but as there's no opponent we can't tell if it's intentional. The feed is slow enough that you could be moving to where you need to be and getting set and comfortable, then loading up and hitting the ball hard rather than still moving as you hit. Need to see harder feeds with specific targets, specific plays you're working on, or better yet playing points. 30fps is fine.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
    #38
  39. CornOnTheCob

    CornOnTheCob New User

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    Thanks mate sounds good. Number 1 thing holding me back right now is my fitness so as that increases I'll be able to speed up the feed rate and also have more consistent strokes. Typically don't have a problem with split steps during regular hitting since that was drilled into me by my coach when I first started playing.
     
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  40. CornOnTheCob

    CornOnTheCob New User

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    You definitely could be 100% correct on the late prep thing, but I've always found myself to be heavily dependent on rhythm and getting to a spot and loading up and having a pause waiting for the ball to get to me has always thrown me off and felt uncomfortable.

    Regardless, early prep is definitely something I could practice and will probably be much more apparent when I post some live hitting videos. Thank you for your feedback btw love watching the videos you post of your own matches, very insightful.
     
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  41. CornOnTheCob

    CornOnTheCob New User

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    The slight variations in my shots are due to the inconsistency of the ball machine. Some balls really kick high so I hit a higher more defensive shot and other balls that are shorter and lower I tend to drive more.
     
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  42. ByeByePoly

    ByeByePoly Legend

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    That is why "turn by x" doesn't hold up. Don't be late/rushed is of course valid, and most of us fight it. But I have the same problem, I am a rhythm player (think that is tennis in general), and I am totally hosed to just be in a full unit turn holding pattern too early. Less so on fh ... I can get away with early (the two times a year that happens :eek:). But on the 2hbh ... total fubar if I am back before the bounce.

    Agree on friend @Curious videos ... good stuff.

    fyi on ball machine if you are looking for consistent feed. My lobster is old (2004), and spin and oscillating is no bueno ... wouldn't use it anyway. It's also windy here, and I don't want to mess with ball machine settings each time ... so this has worked for me:

    - set bm near back fence in the center
    - max mph
    - low over net bouncing in strike zone at baselinecenter
    - turn bm left or right depending on wind

    This has the least "fine tuning" each session. All I have to change is 1) mph ... and 2) distance from back fence.

    Perfect for grooving strokes ... not perfect for working on targeting (I back off the mph when hitting at my new :cool: orange cones).

    Not lately, but early with 2hbh I liked to work on 2hbh touch shots from slower more elevated feeds. I bring a board with me I slide under front wheels so I don't have to mess with the bm set elevation.

    The other thing I have done to "kind of" work on 2hbh ros is keep bm near back fence ... but move toward add side. If I get the ball to barely clear the net, it will land in service box in corner. Poor man's ros practice, not the right incoming angle, but gives me some open stance ros reps by myself. You get creative with too many bm hours.

    Who was that manning your ball machine?
     
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  43. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Rhythm is good, standing in place waiting for the ball is bad.

    Having said that, your rhythm may not be ideal.

    Mid-high level players tend to move at the same speed and mirror the ball path with their prep. So that they arrive in position to hit the ball and their prep is complete at the same time then they swing and begin their recovery. This may seem good and look smooth but it isn't ideal.

    If you have had any sort of formal dance instruction you'll know that all steps are not the same speed but you are still in rhythm (otherwise you wouldn't be dancing, you would just be walking in circles.)

    Now if you are standing still or moving a constant speed your movement isn't adding to or taking away from your stroke, if you are speeding up as you are hitting then your movement is taking away from your stroke and if you are slowing down your movement is helping.

    So you want to split as soon as your opponent hits the ball, turn as soon as you know if you will hit a forehand or backhand, take your first step or two as fast as possible, then slow down into the ball.

    If you want to foxtrot it's slow, slow, quick, quick, slow...

    If you want to hit a forehand 4 steps away your rhythm would be split, quick, quick, slow, slow, plant, hit, recover.

    J
     
    #43
  44. CornOnTheCob

    CornOnTheCob New User

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    Yeah well said. I'll try to film some more clips of live hitting against another person so the stuff I'm doing well/flaws will be more apparent.
     
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  45. ByeByePoly

    ByeByePoly Legend

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    slow, slow, slow, slow, plant, lean, hit, lean back, recover.
     
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  46. CornOnTheCob

    CornOnTheCob New User

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    What angle do you think would be the best to record for live hitting? Side view or back view? Maybe a little higher up from the back?
     
    #46
  47. Dou

    Dou New User

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    your contact is late.

    if you shadow a normal FH, there is the acceleration and there is the release/follow thru where you hear the swoosh sound.

    put the release on the ball. not the acceleration part.

    'accelerate thru the ball' is wrong.... this is why your fh looks crowded and powerless.
     
    #47
  48. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    For movement, back, for stroke, side.

    J
     
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  49. Curious

    Curious Hall of Fame

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    I think it's about learning/tolerating to move with an already turned unit. Lightning fast shoulder turn keeping the racket in front of your chest as soon as the ball is hit by your opponent. So it's not actually turning and waiting for the ball to come.

    See this perfect example from a junior player:

     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
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  50. Curious

    Curious Hall of Fame

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    @CornOnTheCob watch the same junior player here. For a forehand shot see how he moves from 2.06 across the whole base line with shoulders already turned, an amazing example! That's what I was trying to explain.

     
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