Some HD footage of my hitting session yesterday. Please critique!

C

Chadillac

Guest
#51
Trying to establish my destined dominance within the Talk Tennis community and establish credibility. I will be tennis hokage one day BELIEVE IT!


Anyway here are a couple of clips I took from my hitting session yesterday. Effort level was at about a 6/10 as I've been running as much as I can in my spare time and my legs just haven't recovered yet. Going back to my 2hbh that I took a break from for a while and I think the stroke looks pretty good.

One thing is that my forehand feels all sorts of messed up, and it might be because of the way the ball machine fed the balls or me not choosing the right strike zone, but I think I'm either late or cramped for space. My elbow looks pretty far in but so was Nalbandian's. Any suggestions?
Very nice striking and coil. It looks like your arm is leading your hip, they should be more closely timed. More powerful uncoil as well, just go a little harder with each until it makes your head move, like massive recoil.

Your anchor is also moving (right leg on fh), its like your moving on to the next shot before you finish that one. Look at your bh's left foot and compare it to your fh's right.

Those are easy things to fix (hitting the ball properly is the tricky one). Looking good
 
#52
Sounds good I will set up my machine that way the next time I take video and be sure to bring my better camera (Nikon J3 just in case that helps). I think that the camera has preset "sport video" mode which I'm postulating is a really fast burst of pictures. Do you think taking a full video and then slowing it down frame by frame (assuming 60fps) would be better? In my mind it just seems that using the high speed mode with this camera compromises overall quality.
I'm not sure but the Nikon J3 might have a very limited duration recording time in high speed video mode. Check the specs and user's manual (usually available from the Nikon website). If so it might be only useful if you have someone to trigger the camera. ?

60 fps in bright sunlight should be very useful. The bright sunlight most likely will cause your camera's automatic exposure control to select a fast shutter speed and that will make the motion blur smaller.

One useful camera angle in on the side to see the angle on the racket just prior to impact. Tennisspeed has some excellent illustrations of racket face angles around impact. Impact off the racket center line rotates the racket in some complicated way, see red lines. Here, the racket face is closed and you can measure it with a protractor.



An interesting angle that does not show well from cameras on the ground is the angle between the forearm and racket at impact as seen from above. That is best seen from a camera viewing from above and those videos are very rare. At least notice that angle, estimate it and compare it to high level forehands. Comparisons can work even though estimating the angle accurately can't be done.
 
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#54
@CornOnTheCob watch the same junior player here. For a forehand shot see how he moves from 2.06 across the whole base line with shoulders already turned, an amazing example! That's what I was trying to explain.


Maybe we need a definition of 1) unit turn and 2) late for these discussions.

Simple definitions for here ... maybe a dedicated post to it later.

unit turn - amount shoulders turned past hips + hip turn past feet
late - rushed pulling the trigger on forward swing (for here, I'm not including contact point ... i.e. how much you hit the ball in front)

I am switching to Goffin video instead of Andrei ... hard to seem him on other side of court @2:06.

Watch his FH @00:17 ... I will comment after video.



To me, he has zero unit turn from around 00:17 to 00:19. He has simply turned and run from center of the court to side of court ... nipples facing the sideline ... shoulders and hips and feet all inline (no turn). Note: the main difference here from simply running from point A to B would be his right arm position. I think we probably have to talk about "early prep" in context of arm position prior to unit turn. If you go check Andrei, he probably has his arm up early also with no unit turn yet (actually ... hard to see ... but I think Andrei hits that FH with no unit turn ... didn't have time).

So Goffin ... note around 00:19 the unit turn starts ... hips and shoulders turn back. He was able to add it in by forward swing, where Andrei above probably stayed more square.

Here is my big question/point/observation: I think the top players are not running across the back of the court generally with a unit turn, but probably arm back the common element. If they have time, they will add it in rhythm nearer contact. Even on a rally ball which doesn't require running, it really isn't (full unit turn then move feet to contact). It really is (move feet to contact while unit turning). Walk through the FH @00:32 ... the feet and turn isn't a sequence, but rather together.

With my definitions above, I am seldom late on my BH side, even if I fail to get ready by the bounce. On my FH, I can be late even if I run across the court with my racquet up like sir Goffin. There is an element of 1) finish the backswing ... and 2) timing of swinging forward (pull the trigger ... even when you were ready in time).

Will be curious if you define "unit turn" and prep differently.
 
#55
@CornOnTheCob watch the same junior player here. For a forehand shot see how he moves from 2.06 across the whole base line with shoulders already turned, an amazing example! That's what I was trying to explain.

I used to watch a lot of Andrei videos! Silky smooth. I think that for me, there is a disconnect between me turning and running vs. me starting the windup for my swing. I think as I play more and post more videos on this forum I'll eventually get my timing back.
 
#56
@CornOnTheCob watch the same junior player here. For a forehand shot see how he moves from 2.06 across the whole base line with shoulders already turned, an amazing example! That's what I was trying to explain.

Poor shot selection at 0:12
He's out wide, and hits it right to the opponent at baseline.
Better to go DTL or drop shot.
I make this mistake constantly when pulled short and wide.
I bash. Need to get crafty like a smart natural pusher.

Jesus, these guys have some insane deep corner placement.
 

MisterP

Hall of Fame
#57
Poor shot selection at 0:12
He's out wide, and hits it right to the opponent at baseline.
Better to go DTL or drop shot.
I make this mistake constantly when pulled short and wide.
I bash. Need to get crafty like a smart natural pusher.

Jesus, these guys have some insane deep corner placement.
There's a difference between poor shot selection and missing your shot. The way he preps the racquet to get around the outside of the ball makes me think he was trying to hit an extreme angle, which makes sense from the position he was in. He just missed it a little bit. Hitting a topspin shot up the line from that part of the court on a very low ball is also low percentage.

IMO, the mistake he made was approaching on that backhand, but he won the point so what the hell do I know.
 
#58
@CornOnTheCob , @TenFanLA

Note: this is more about me thinking this through ... I am new to the 2hbh and you are not. ;)

This is what I meant in earlier post that you get to backswing from low to high (like Gilles Simon), rather than across the torso (like a Djokovic) which gets to a similar backswing. To my way of thinking, it really doesn't matter how you get to that second pic ... it's a preference and timing thing.



Just thinking about it ... I wonder if the low to high offers advantage on abbreviated swings ... ros of serve being an example. Let's say on a fast serve you don't have time for the drop, and want to go directly to the slot (pic below). All you have to change is "just don't pendulum up to higher backswing ... stay low and finish unit turn". If you come across like Djokovic ... and you want to go directly to slot, it's a different racquet path. Obviously it works fine for the pros :D ... but rec players aren't pros and repeatable might mean KISS. :D Doesn't matter for me ... I am too far down the road with racquet takeback across torso ... that won't be changing.

You have dropped from pic 2 above to here (slot)



Actually, if we define "slot" as the point the shoulders and arms/hands start forward (we pull the trigger), this would be the slot.

 
#59
Good job posting a video unlike most cowards on this forum.

Excellent net clearance.
@CornOnTheCob , @TenFanLA

Note: this is more about me thinking this through ... I am new to the 2hbh and you are not. ;)

This is what I meant in earlier post that you get to backswing from low to high (like Gilles Simon), rather than across the torso (like a Djokovic) which gets to a similar backswing. To my way of thinking, it really doesn't matter how you get to that second pic ... it's a preference and timing thing.



Just thinking about it ... I wonder if the low to high offers advantage on abbreviated swings ... ros of serve being an example. Let's say on a fast serve you don't have time for the drop, and want to go directly to the slot (pic below). All you have to change is "just don't pendulum up to higher backswing ... stay low and finish unit turn". If you come across like Djokovic ... and you want to go directly to slot, it's a different racquet path. Obviously it works fine for the pros :D ... but rec players aren't pros and repeatable might mean KISS. :D Doesn't matter for me ... I am too far down the road with racquet takeback across torso ... that won't be changing.

You have dropped from pic 2 above to here (slot)



Actually, if we define "slot" as the point the shoulders and arms/hands start forward (we pull the trigger), this would be the slot.

All the best 2hbh's I see, both pro and rec, have the racket head well above the hands in the takeback.
This allows for better control, leverage and power. It also makes dealing with high balls easier.

As you can see in OP's video, his 2hbh is very arm-y and handsy.
It lacks power, depth and control esp. on high balls.
That is because a low, horizontal takeback forces you to use your arms to raise up the racket on the forward swing.
So you wind up using more arm and less lower body.

This is the dream 2bhb:

 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
#60
All the best 2hbh's I see, both pro and rec, have the racket head well above the hands in the takeback.
This allows for better control, leverage and power. It also makes dealing with high balls easier.

As you can see in OP's video, his 2hbh is very arm-y and handsy.
It lacks power, depth and control esp. on high balls.
That is because a low, horizontal takeback forces you to use your arms to raise up the racket on the forward swing.
So you wind up using more arm and less lower body.

This is the dream 2bhb:

What do you mean by leverage?

J
 
#61
All the best 2hbh's I see, both pro and rec, have the racket head well above the hands in the takeback.
This allows for better control, leverage and power. It also makes dealing with high balls easier.

As you can see in OP's video, his 2hbh is very arm-y and handsy.
It lacks power, depth and control esp. on high balls.
That is because a low, horizontal takeback forces you to use your arms to raise up the racket on the forward swing.
So you wind up using more arm and less lower body.

This is the dream 2bhb:


All the best 2hbh's I see, both pro and rec, have the racket head well above the hands in the takeback.

So does CornCob ... pic 2 ... point of this post. ;)

That is because a low, horizontal takeback forces you to use your arms to raise up the racket on the forward swing.

Again see pic 2, he starts drop and forward swing about same height as Djokovic ... again point of this post. ;)

All low to high swings are by definition rising arms, hands and racquet ... a low to high tide lifts all boats.

Rios went straight down ... zero drop ... could handle Agassi's shots ... leverage and handling high balls was at least 4.0 level.

Nalbandian's 2hbh was good ... Duh! :D

Don't know the dividing line between this:




and "handsy".
 
#64
Everybody uses the word leverage, nobody explains wtf they mean by it. It makes no sense.

J
I can, but you have to factor in I am making it up on the fly. :D I figure if I claim something batsh!!t ... someone that knows what they are talking about like you will correct me ... and I learn. Just creative question asking. ;)

So here goes:

Leverage is set at your position at the slot right before shoulders (hips for those into it :D) swing forward. Weight shift already happened unless open. If you are in cr@p position there (weak tea unit turn) ... than weak tea leverage.

Drop does not add leverage or rhs ... purely timing/preference issue. Granted ... best timing is best rhs, but hard to watch Rios hit is non-gravity drop 2hbh and make the case with a straight face drops add rhs, or you can't have good timing without drop.

I await the real answer. :cool:
 
#67
I can, but you have to factor in I am making it up on the fly. :D I figure if I claim something batsh!!t ... someone that knows what they are talking about like you will correct me ... and I learn. Just creative question asking. ;)

So here goes:

Leverage is set at your position at the slot right before shoulders (hips for those into it :D) swing forward. Weight shift already happened unless open. If you are in cr@p position there (weak tea unit turn) ... than weak tea leverage.

Drop does not add leverage or rhs ... purely timing/preference issue. Granted ... best timing is best rhs, but hard to watch Rios hit is non-gravity drop 2hbh and make the case with a straight face drops add rhs, or you can't have good timing without drop.

I await the real answer. :cool:
Rios had a good 2hbh but the best of all time, e.g. Agassi, Safin, Nalbandian, Djokovic, Nishikori, all have racket head close to vertical on takeback.
Using Rios as an example is like using Santoro as an example. They are more the exception rather than the rule.
Krygios' horizontal takeback 2hbh is wasting a lot of potential. His 2hbh is far inferior to Zverev's which is more technically sound.

I play and watch a lot of rec tennis too. The best non-Open player 2hbh by far I've ever seen looks like a Nishikori-style 2hbh.
 
#68
Maybe we need a definition of 1) unit turn and 2) late for these discussions.

Simple definitions for here ... maybe a dedicated post to it later.

unit turn - amount shoulders turned past hips + hip turn past feet
late - rushed pulling the trigger on forward swing (for here, I'm not including contact point ... i.e. how much you hit the ball in front)

I am switching to Goffin video instead of Andrei ... hard to seem him on other side of court @2:06.

Watch his FH @00:17 ... I will comment after video.



To me, he has zero unit turn from around 00:17 to 00:19. He has simply turned and run from center of the court to side of court ... nipples facing the sideline ... shoulders and hips and feet all inline (no turn). Note: the main difference here from simply running from point A to B would be his right arm position. I think we probably have to talk about "early prep" in context of arm position prior to unit turn. If you go check Andrei, he probably has his arm up early also with no unit turn yet (actually ... hard to see ... but I think Andrei hits that FH with no unit turn ... didn't have time).

So Goffin ... note around 00:19 the unit turn starts ... hips and shoulders turn back. He was able to add it in by forward swing, where Andrei above probably stayed more square.

Here is my big question/point/observation: I think the top players are not running across the back of the court generally with a unit turn, but probably arm back the common element. If they have time, they will add it in rhythm nearer contact. Even on a rally ball which doesn't require running, it really isn't (full unit turn then move feet to contact). It really is (move feet to contact while unit turning). Walk through the FH @00:32 ... the feet and turn isn't a sequence, but rather together.

With my definitions above, I am seldom late on my BH side, even if I fail to get ready by the bounce. On my FH, I can be late even if I run across the court with my racquet up like sir Goffin. There is an element of 1) finish the backswing ... and 2) timing of swinging forward (pull the trigger ... even when you were ready in time).

Will be curious if you define "unit turn" and prep differently.
There is a term in use and you can Google for the difference between the line between the shoulders and the line between the hips - separation For example, the shoulders line goes back 30 degrees farther than the hips line.

Can you Google and find a definition - "unit turn"?

All these things can be shown in pictures.

Google: forehand tennis stroke separation

Keep in mind that tennis usage is often not well done. For example, the usage of 'pronation' on the serve.

A video of Djokovic on the forehand is a good example of these motions.

Many of the threads have arguments over undefined terms.

(I have thought that 'unit turn' means I should turn my whole body together. I don't see that in high speed videos.)
 
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#69
Imagine a baseball batter who waits with the bat horizontally vs holding the bat vertically with his wrists cocked.
The latter position will result in more power and better contact.
Same with golfers.
That's just setting lag ... batters do it in the backswing, 2hbh lag not set at backswing but at bottom at the slot (actually, lag often set right after shoulders/hands start forward. Nishikori seems to set lag before hands start forward, but Murray max lag happens after hands start forward.
 
#70
Rios had a good 2hbh but the best of all time, e.g. Agassi, Safin, Nalbandian, Djokovic, Nishikori, all have racket head close to vertical on takeback.
Using Rios as an example is like using Santoro as an example. They are more the exception rather than the rule.
Krygios' horizontal takeback 2hbh is wasting a lot of potential. His 2hbh is far inferior to Zverev's which is more technically sound.

I play and watch a lot of rec tennis too. The best non-Open player 2hbh by far I've ever seen looks like a Nishikori-style 2hbh.
Good enough for Rios and Simone, good enough for CornCob.
 
#72
Good enough for Rios and Simone, good enough for CornCob.
Again more exception than the rule.
I haven't watched Rios in person. But I can tell you that compared to Djokovic's 2hbh, Simon's, Krygios' and Murray's 2hbh are flatter with lower net clearance and therefore less margin for error.
Mortals like us need more margin.
 
#73
Rios had a good 2hbh but the best of all time, e.g. Agassi, Safin, Nalbandian, Djokovic, Nishikori, all have racket head close to vertical on takeback.
Using Rios as an example is like using Santoro as an example. They are more the exception rather than the rule.
Krygios' horizontal takeback 2hbh is wasting a lot of potential. His 2hbh is far inferior to Zverev's which is more technically sound.

I play and watch a lot of rec tennis too. The best non-Open player 2hbh by far I've ever seen looks like a Nishikori-style 2hbh.
fyi ... after looking at way too many pro 2hbhs ... I decided the position of the hands was the bigger thing than the vertical or angled racquet. Zverev looks like hands are way higher than other 2hbh, but the vertical racquet is a little deceiving.
 
#74
Again more exception than the rule.
I haven't watched Rios in person. But I can tell you that compared to Djokovic's 2hbh, Simon's, Krygios' and Murray's 2hbh are flatter with lower net clearance and therefore less margin for error.
Mortals like us need more margin.
I don't agree the prep has anything to do with low to high swing margin. Rios could swing just as low to high as any other prep.
 
#75
fyi ... after looking at way too many pro 2hbhs ... I decided the position of the hands was the bigger thing than the vertical or angled racquet. Zverev looks like hands are way higher than other 2hbh, but the vertical racquet is a little deceiving.
Yeah, you have to go with what works for you personally.
That is more important than trying to copy someone else's stroke that looks good.
 
#77
I don't agree the prep has anything to do with low to high swing margin. Rios could swing just as low to high as any other prep.
For me personally, when someone is repeatedly pounding heavy topspin FH to my 2hbh, I find it much easier to handle with a high vertical takeback as opposed to low horizontal takeback.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
#79
Imagine a baseball batter who waits with the bat horizontally vs holding the bat vertically with his wrists cocked.
The latter position will result in more power and better contact.
Same with golfers.
What does leverage mean?

How does that have anything to do with leverage?

J
 
#80
There is a term in use and you can Google for the difference between the line between the shoulders and the line between the hips - separation For example, the shoulders line goes back 30 degrees farther than the hips line.

Can you Google and find a definition - "unit turn"?

All these things can be shown in pictures.

Google: forehand tennis stroke separation

Keep in mind that tennis usage is often not well done. For example, the usage of 'pronation' on the serve.

A video of Djokovic on the forehand is a good example of these motions.

Many of the threads have arguments over undefined terms.

(I have thought that 'unit turn' means I should turn my whole body together. I don't see that in high speed videos.)
Yes ... separation seems good, but then there is feet->hips, and shoulder->hips.

The main point/question with Curious was if he considered running sideways to line without any separation a unit turn. Said another ... nipples and hips and feet toward sideline is ZERO unit turn imo. It's why all shoulder lines pointing to back fence FHs are not equal unit turn. If neutral stance, no turn, if wide open stance, good unit turn.
 
#81
For me personally, when someone is repeatedly pounding heavy topspin FH to my 2hbh, I find it much easier to handle with a high vertical takeback as opposed to low horizontal takeback.
We need your video... and then look at where your hands start forward. It will be below your takeback high position, and your starting takeback position will cease to matter.
 
#84
I laugh when I see any talk about "lag".
Certain things you simply can't think about.
No player ever thinks, "Ok, lag ...lag...lag..ok, now release....contact....follow thru...."
 
#88
All the best 2hbh's I see, both pro and rec, have the racket head well above the hands in the takeback.
This allows for better control, leverage and power. It also makes dealing with high balls easier.

As you can see in OP's video, his 2hbh is very arm-y and handsy.
It lacks power, depth and control esp. on high balls.
That is because a low, horizontal takeback forces you to use your arms to raise up the racket on the forward swing.
So you wind up using more arm and less lower body.

This is the dream 2bhb:

I would argue that my backhand actually looks pretty similar. The exaggerated pendulum motion of my take back is probably caused by my arms being pretty long in comparison to my torso. I think @ByeByePoly is also correct when he's talking about abbreviated swings and whatnot. I played doubles in high school so the only backhands I hit were either lobs, return of serve, or low balls from volleys.

edit: I should note that I'm not saying that you're wrong @TenFanLA. I will film my backhand next time from the side view and practice both a high takeback and the type of takeback I'm doing now
 
#91
My 2hbh is nothing to crow about. It is functional and gets the ball back in play consistently. That's about it.
Lol ... I wasn’t commenting on the quality of your 2hbh ... it’s good. I was trying in vain :p to make the point height of takeback doesn’t determine swing path to contact.
 
#92
I would argue that my backhand actually looks pretty similar. The exaggerated pendulum motion of my take back is probably caused by my arms being pretty long in comparison to my torso. I think @ByeByePoly is also correct when he's talking about abbreviated swings and whatnot. I played doubles in high school so the only backhands I hit were either lobs, return of serve, or low balls from volleys.

edit: I should note that I'm not saying that you're wrong @TenFanLA. I will film my backhand next time from the side view and practice both a high takeback and the type of takeback I'm doing now
Not exaggerated ... just low vs medium vs high take back.

If you do what TenFan suggests, you still end up at same pic 2. Why change an existing prep that works to end up at same place .. besides being nice to him? :D
 
#93
Not exaggerated ... just low vs medium vs high take back.

If you do what TenFan suggests, you still end up at same pic 2. Why change an existing prep that works to end up at same place .. besides being nice to him? :D
According to scientists, a golfer can theoretically hit the ball the same with no takeback, starting the swing from the top with only downswing.
It should also be noted that none of these scientists play advanced golf or any sport for that matter.

OP can try both takebacks and see what works better for him. I have tried both and high takeback works better for me esp. against high topspin balls.
 
#94
Yes ... separation seems good, but then there is feet->hips, and shoulder->hips.

The main point/question with Curious was if he considered running sideways to line without any separation a unit turn. Said another ... nipples and hips and feet toward sideline is ZERO unit turn imo. It's why all shoulder lines pointing to back fence FHs are not equal unit turn. If neutral stance, no turn, if wide open stance, good unit turn.
Tennis terms don't contain secret knowledge. A lot of them are in use because they don't have good definitions...they have very, very lose definitions, no definitions, or incorrect definitions.

If you describe complex motions in terms that can't be looked up and then those readers do the same..............

Words are good to refer to parts of strokes shown in videos. 'See the separation.' 'Look at the shoulder turn.' Words are not descriptive enough - don't contain enough information - to describe complex 3D tennis strokes.

There is also a problem in that many readers and posters don't consider or discuss the state of stretched muscles in their descriptions. Stretched muscles are very important for all athletic motions. You can't say 'use the kinetic chain' and not have an understanding of which muscles are stretched, how they are being stretched, or recognize that certain muscles are stretched for use in tennis strokes. Unit turn? There is a very visible upper body turn and certain muscles are stretched. In the forward turn to the ball, certain muscles are stretched farther as lags becomes visible in the videos. These stretched muscles have potential energy, energy in the bank, energy to be used some milliseconds later for racket head speed.

Not confident in discussing stretched muscles? Search the subject: stretch shorten cycle

Google: Biomechanics and Tennis, 2006, B. Elliott
 
#95
According to scientists, a golfer can theoretically hit the ball the same with no takeback, starting the swing from the top with only downswing.
.........................
Do you have a reference for that information? That does not sound scientific.

1) No Takeback. It might be as fast as a swing with takeback but the muscles would only be using active actin & myosin forces. ?

2) With Takeback and Quick Swing. But it would not ''hit the ball the same" because the down swing with takeback could be a mix of actin & myosin forces plus titin forces from stretched muscles. ?

Is #2 more consistent than #1?
 
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#97
Tennis terms don't contain secret knowledge. A lot of them are in use because they don't have good definitions...they have very, very lose definitions, no definitions, or incorrect definitions.

If you describe complex motions in terms that can't be looked up and then those readers do the same..............

Words are good to refer to parts of strokes shown in videos. 'See the separation.' 'Look at the shoulder turn.' Words are not descriptive enough - don't contain enough information - to describe complex 3D tennis strokes.

There is also a problem in that many readers and posters don't consider or discuss the state of stretched muscles in their descriptions. Stretched muscles are very important for all athletic motions. You can't say 'use the kinetic chain' and not have an understanding of which muscles are stretched, how they are being stretched, or recognize that certain muscles are stretched for use in tennis strokes. Unit turn? There is a very visible upper body turn and certain muscles are stretched. In the forward turn to the ball, certain muscles are stretched farther as lags becomes visible in the videos. These stretched muscles have potential energy, energy in the bank, energy to be used some milliseconds later for racket head speed.

Not confident in discussing stretched muscles? Search the subject: stretch shorten cycle

Google: Biomechanics and Tennis, 2006, B. Elliott
"Not confident in discussing stretched muscles? Search the subject: stretch shorten cycle"

Not interested in stretched muscles ... BBP stops at bones. :D
 
#98
According to scientists, a golfer can theoretically hit the ball the same with no takeback, starting the swing from the top with only downswing.
It should also be noted that none of these scientists play advanced golf or any sport for that matter.

OP can try both takebacks and see what works better for him. I have tried both and high takeback works better for me esp. against high topspin balls.
So you think Djokovic's take back height is too low?

 
No, Djokovic's takeback is about 45 - 50 degrees in that pic which means the racket head is well above his hands.
Also he is 6'3". You and I, not so much.

This is Djokovic's higher BH takeback on a higher incoming ball.

You are slippier than a greased pig?

FYI ... I have grown since my last video. Oh ... you meant height. :eek:
 
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