Some people underestimate topspin and think pro players hit flat

[FiReFTW]

Something thats really been interesting to me lately, when I was reading some old threads on this forum, is how some people claim alot of atp players like Federer hit pretty flat.

And also that topspin is overrated and only for pushers.

It seems to me that these people don't really realize what topspin is, and they seem to confuse arc of the ball with topspin.
A high arc ball automatically has a ton of topspin, while a low arc ball is flat.

But thats only the trajectory, it has nothing to do with topspin.

The reality is, the arc of the ball doesn't have much to do with topspin, you can bunt the ball in the air or slice it and it will have zero topspin.

Pro players who play fairly aggressive such as Federer and tend to hit more lower arc balls alltho they still hit their fair shair of higher arc balls, they hit with MASSIVE amounts of topspin on each of those shots, high arc or low arc.

You can go watch videos from the back perspective and see how those lower arc balls get sucked into the court like a magnet, and yet they are hit with extreme mph speeds.

You can also play against really good players or competitors and see the same thing, how their "flat" trajectory balls jump into you with massive topspin.

High level players (specially those as high as ATP pros) use topspin on all their shots, in order to:

1.Be able to hit faster and harder and get the ball in
2.Add more rotation to the ball making it jump higher and faster hence harder to deal with for the opponent

What some people don't realize is, at some point when your racquet speed is too fast and the ball is hit too fast, it will be too fast and go long, so in order to compensate that you need to hit with more topspin.

And some people will say yes.. but if you brush up the arc will automatically get bigger.. well no because you can add topspin with many different things, and also as you swing up more you add more topspin and more arc, but if you then close ur racquet face more you now get the same arc as before because the racquet angle will propell the ball at a lower angle but you brush up, so you get the same trajectory, but with much more topspin now.

And no its not hard to manage your racquet angle, you don't really think about it its more by feel, not sure how pro players do it, but whenever I want to close my racquetface more or more, I just visualize trying to contact the ball higher (above its center) and it works, so specially on those close balls at the net that bounce higher, where you can really go through the ball with a closed face in order to hit it fast and hard and not go long, I really vizualize contacting the ball very high, it might work different for other people tho.

Thats why you see alot of slow motion videos or photos of Federer with a closed racquet by x amount of angles (depending on the shot).

Thats what allows him to hit flatter arc shots that travel 80mph and bounce inside the court, if he did not add so much topspin then that ball would fly into the back fence.

So it allows you to hit harder and faster shots and YET those shots will not go long, the more racquet speed you can create the more spin you need to compensate, so you can hit FASTER shots, with MORE SPIN, which are way harder to deal with and make them land inside, when otherwise you would be capped at hitting x amount of speed, because anything more and the ball would fly too long.

So topspin is not underrated, topspin is CRUCIAL, and the faster you can swing the racquet the more topspin you need and the faster and heavier ur shots will be and harder to deal with.

And you can hit heavy topspin shots with a lower arc aswell as higher arc.

The only time you trully see players like Fed hit a fairly "flat" ball is when they have a very high ball which opens up the court angle so they can aim down into the court, because then they can really hit it fast and hard and don't need as much spin, but even those are not really that flat, but much more than the usual shots.

Anyway, maybe this helps some people go out experiment and get some aha moment or something.

 

[Tennisanity]

TLDR?????????

 

[Say Chi Sin Lo]

Dude, stop talking to the idiots. Problem solved.

 

[Dartagnan64]

What Federer does has nothing to do with what 99.9% of the posters on this forum can do or should do. Pros play a radically different game from rec players including the few 5.0's around here.

You need to get the ball in the court and if you hit hard you need topspin. Nothing much more needs to be said. Pros hit hard, therefore topspin.

 

[Say Chi Sin Lo]

What Federer does has nothing to do with what 99.9% of the posters on this forum can do or should do. Pros play a radically different game from rec players including the few 5.0's around here.

You need to get the ball in the court and if you hit hard you need topspin. Nothing much more needs to be said. Pros hit hard, therefore topspin.

That doesn't stop 99.9% of us from thinking we can relate to him, lol

I bet you don't need to go more than a page or two before you find a thread where someone tries to teach us all on how to hit a Federer-styled stroke.

 

[r2473]

Federer's technique is deeply technically flawed. I hit much better than him.

Problem is, unlike Federer, I have to play against pushers. When I play against 5.5's, my strokes are flawless.

 

[Znak]

Good read, appreciate the share!

 

[bitcoinoperated]

TLDR?????????

Pros use topspin to be able to hit hard and keep the ball in the court. Also, water is wet and the sky is blue.

 

[sureshs]

Common mistake to think topspin is to control the pace. More fundamental use for rec players is safety - they tend to put flat shots into the net.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[user92626]

ps. (meaningful) topspin may be very hard for a lot of recreational players to create.

 

[mightyrick]

Something thats really been interesting to me lately, when I was reading some old threads on this forum, is how some people claim alot of atp players like Federer hit pretty flat.

Don't confuse flat trajectory with no spin. Very different thjngs.

 

[ChaelAZ]

Something thats really been interesting to me lately, when I was reading some old threads on this forum, is how some people claim alot of atp players like Federer hit pretty flat.

And also that topspin is overrated and only for pushers.

It seems to me that these people don't really realize what topspin is, and they seem to confuse arc of the ball with topspin.
A high arc ball automatically has a ton of topspin, while a low arc ball is flat.

But thats only the trajectory, it has nothing to do with topspin.

The reality is, the arc of the ball doesn't have much to do with topspin, you can bunt the ball in the air or slice it and it will have zero topspin.

Pro players who play fairly aggressive such as Federer and tend to hit more lower arc balls alltho they still hit their fair shair of higher arc balls, they hit with MASSIVE amounts of topspin on each of those shots, high arc or low arc.

You can go watch videos from the back perspective and see how those lower arc balls get sucked into the court like a magnet, and yet they are hit with extreme mph speeds.

You can also play against really good players or competitors and see the same thing, how their "flat" trajectory balls jump into you with massive topspin.

High level players (specially those as high as ATP pros) use topspin on all their shots, in order to:

1.Be able to hit faster and harder and get the ball in
2.Add more rotation to the ball making it jump higher and faster hence harder to deal with for the opponent

What some people don't realize is, at some point when your racquet speed is too fast and the ball is hit too fast, it will be too fast and go long, so in order to compensate that you need to hit with more topspin.

And some people will say yes.. but if you brush up the arc will automatically get bigger.. well no because you can add topspin with many different things, and also as you swing up more you add more topspin and more arc, but if you then close ur racquet face more you now get the same arc as before because the racquet angle will propell the ball at a lower angle but you brush up, so you get the same trajectory, but with much more topspin now.

And no its not hard to manage your racquet angle, you don't really think about it its more by feel, not sure how pro players do it, but whenever I want to close my racquetface more or more, I just visualize trying to contact the ball higher (above its center) and it works, so specially on those close balls at the net that bounce higher, where you can really go through the ball with a closed face in order to hit it fast and hard and not go long, I really vizualize contacting the ball very high, it might work different for other people tho.

Thats why you see alot of slow motion videos or photos of Federer with a closed racquet by x amount of angles (depending on the shot).

Thats what allows him to hit flatter arc shots that travel 80mph and bounce inside the court, if he did not add so much topspin then that ball would fly into the back fence.

So it allows you to hit harder and faster shots and YET those shots will not go long, the more racquet speed you can create the more spin you need to compensate, so you can hit FASTER shots, with MORE SPIN, which are way harder to deal with and make them land inside, when otherwise you would be capped at hitting x amount of speed, because anything more and the ball would fly too long.

So topspin is not underrated, topspin is CRUCIAL, and the faster you can swing the racquet the more topspin you need and the faster and heavier ur shots will be and harder to deal with.

And you can hit heavy topspin shots with a lower arc aswell as higher arc.

The only time you trully see players like Fed hit a fairly "flat" ball is when they have a very high ball which opens up the court angle so they can aim down into the court, because then they can really hit it fast and hard and don't need as much spin, but even those are not really that flat, but much more than the usual shots.

Anyway, maybe this helps some people go out experiment and get some aha moment or something.

I didn’t read that, but in response to the thread title...

I figure most people are simply talking about trajectory. I can flatten out shots and still ha e plenty of spin.




Probably posting from the court between sets.

 

[Curious]

Pro ball goes flat then dips down suddenly. Rec ball goes up and down nice and smooth.

 

[Morch Us]

Closing your racket face before contact, that is a your doorway to inconsistent strokes. Watch the same "Federer" videos more carefully, you will see that at the time of contact the racket face is not closed, but ALWAYS near 90 degrees. The answer you are looking for is racket hear speed. With increased racket head speed you can generate more topspin with less low to high. But again increased racket head speed (than you can handle) for lower level is going to cause inconsistency, and jerky strokes.

So now you probably understand, why when players are learning topspin, it is always recommended to go really high arc. You can hit at a comfortable racket head speed, can use an exaggerated low to high path to generate spin, and keep the ball deep. Also the high arc helps with some extra bounce on the ball along with topspin. Once the low-to-high swing becomes automatic for you and you learn to increase the racket head speed without mishits, you will learn to generate different arcs and spins according to the situation. It is not rocket science, but there is a progression involved.

And some people will say yes.. but if you brush up the arc will automatically get bigger.. well no because you can add topspin with many different things, and also as you swing up more you add more topspin and more arc, but if you then close ur racquet face more you now get the same arc as before because the racquet angle will propell the ball at a lower angle but you brush up, so you get the same trajectory, but with much more topspin now.

 

[TennisCJC]

I agree with Fire. Found the statistics on another site which says they were pulled from Tennis Magazine. I've also seen FH average RPM for Berdych, a modern "flat" hitter, and Berdych averages 2,200 rpm. The low rate for pros is in the 900 to 1,400 range which is still quite a lot of spin.

Pros use a lot of spin for aggressive shots. And, that includes the serve. Sampras averaged over 2K rpm on his 1st serve.

Fire is also correct about trajectory - you can hit a high rpm rate on a lower aggressive trajectory.

Forehand Spin Rates........Range............................ Average
Rafael Nadal....................... 1800-4900 r.p.m. .........3200 r.p.m.
Roger Federer.................... 1400-4500 r.p.m. ..........2700 r.p.m.
Andy Roddick..................... 1400-4200 r.p.m. ..........2700 r.p.m.
Marat Safin.......................... 900-3300 r.p.m. ..........2200 r.p.m.
Lleyton Hewitt.................... 1300-3700 r.p.m. ..........2200 r.p.m.
Andre Agassi........................ 1200-3300 r.p.m. .........1900 r.p.m.
Pete Sampras...................... 1000-3400 r.p.m. .........1800 r.p.m.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

While it's true that low trajectory and topspin are not mutually exclusive, Fed doesn't always hit as low as you might think. If you watch his match against Blake at US Open 2006, there's an inside out forehand pass he hits at a fairly short angle, leaving Blake stranded. But this is captured at court level and you can see that the shot actually has decent net clearance and kicks up after bounce. So this is the other aspect to it: you CAN hit through with fairly high (but maybe not moonballish) trajectory. I am not even talking about pros. I have seen high level recs send balls crashing down the court sailing around 4-5 feet over the net. These are really heavy shots and there's nothing much you can do against them. Takes the right combination of launch angle plus RHS plus contact point to achieve it. So it's not only about taking the racquet down to up, it's about how steep or shallow the angle is. With a steep angle but high RHS, you can generate fast balls that also clear the net comfortably. If anything, I would say you need topspin more to drag the ball into court and not so much to clear the net. If you hit relatively flat but from chest height or so, you will still clear the net but without topspin, you may struggle to keep it in.

 

[FiReFTW]

Closing your racket face before contact, that is a your doorway to inconsistent strokes. Watch the same "Federer" videos more carefully, you will see that at the time of contact the racket face is not closed, but ALWAYS near 90 degrees. The answer you are looking for is racket hear speed. With increased racket head speed you can generate more topspin with less low to high. But again increased racket head speed (than you can handle) for lower level is going to cause inconsistency, and jerky strokes.

So now you probably understand, why when players are learning topspin, it is always recommended to go really high arc. You can hit at a comfortable racket head speed, can use an exaggerated low to high path to generate spin, and keep the ball deep. Also the high arc helps with some extra bounce on the ball along with topspin. Once the low-to-high swing becomes automatic for you and you learn to increase the racket head speed without mishits, you will learn to generate different arcs and spins according to the situation. It is not rocket science, but there is a progression involved.

Rhs and windhield wiper have alot to do with it, but also closing the face! If u learn to manage that you can hit much faster and also have a bigger spin variation.

Theres no way u dont close ur racquet when close to the net, otherwise you cant hit fast without the ball going long.

Well the faster u can swing the further away from net this applies.

With a square face you are simply limiting how fast u can hit the ball.

Thats when u get those slow moonballs instead of fast heavy balls.

 

[Bender]

Your observations are correct, but posters on these boards aren't the ones that needed to be told this.

It's the idiots over in GPPD that need to be told this.

 

[zalive]

Theres no way u dont close ur racquet when close to the net

Grip stays the same, swing path changes, the result is that racquet face looks more closed, and it is if observed relative to vertical line. But racquet's face relative to the swing path is what stays the same. And swing path won't be the same behind the baseline, inside the baseline or at the service line.

Your observations are correct, but posters on these boards aren't the ones that needed to be told this.

Posters not, but many readers might still find the info useful.

 

[FiReFTW]

Grip stays the same, swing path changes, the result is that racquet face looks more closed, and it is if observed relative to vertical line. But racquet's face relative to the swing path is what stays the same. And swing path won't be the same behind the baseline, inside the baseline or at the service line.



Posters not, but many readers might still find the info useful.

Yeah, fed and other pros have different amount raquet angles depending on the shot.

Extreme examples:

1.topspin lob where u want a ton of spin but a huge arc, you swing up alot but ur raquet is less closed and more vertical.

2. Penetrating low trajectory spin winner from service line, you can simply add more up swing or more windshield wiper, but u also increase the arc, if u want to maintain a low flat arc and add alot of spin u brush up but close ur racquet angle more.

And im not arguing that players actualy think about and physically try to manipulate the racquet angle, but rather they learn how to hit all these different shots by drilling and hitting 1000000 shots so they know and feel how to hit them in order to create x amount of arc and spin, infact even leaning more forward or backward changes the angle but all this are little subconscious things that happen.

Whatever type of shot they hit if its buggy whip or a side curve running forehand or a low arc heavy spin ball, they got the muscle memory and execute it automatically, they only think about what shape of shot they want to hit and where depending on the situation and vizualize hitting it, the body does the rest.

But for low level players my point is to go vizualize things and different shaped shots and experiment with it to learn all the little things and feel them so you learn this also and it becomes natural.

 

[heninfan99]

didn't read the whole thing but sometimes by flat people mean the trajectory through the court with penetrating shots but that's all relative.

 

[FiReFTW]

didn't read the whole thing but sometimes by flat people mean the trajectory through the court with penetrating shots but that's all relative.

Tldr version

Some think flat trajectory is low spin and high is high spin.

In practice both can be either low spin or high spin.

Pros and good players manage their racquet angle at contact (not physicaly but by feel and muscle memory by hitting 10000000 shots) which allows them a big variety and faster swinging.

2 examples

On topspin lob they lean more back so racquet is not very closed and swing up = ton of spin and huuuge arc

On short balls that bounce higher than net level they lean forward close racquet more which allows them to swing up fast but the ball leaves the racquetin a straight arc or even slighlty down if high enough ball. This allows them to hit with max speed and add heavy spun with no fear of ball going long.

There are many other examples inbetween also.

 

[heninfan99]

Agree but what's your point here? No one here is turning pro anytime soon or hitting "10000000 shots".

Just a reminder that rec players suck?

Tldr version

Some think flat trajectory is low spin and high is high spin.

In practice both can be either low spin or high spin.

Pros and good players manage their racquet angle at contact (not physicaly but by feel and muscle memory by hitting 10000000 shots) which allows them a big variety and faster swinging.

2 examples

On topspin lob they lean more back so racquet is not very closed and swing up = ton of spin and huuuge arc

On short balls that bounce higher than net level they lean forward close racquet more which allows them to swing up fast but the ball leaves the racquetin a straight arc or even slighlty down if high enough ball. This allows them to hit with max speed and add heavy spun with no fear of ball going long.

There are many other examples inbetween also.

 

[FiReFTW]

Agree but what's your point here? No one here is turning pro anytime soon or hitting "10000000 shots".

Just a reminder that rec players suck?

My point is alot of rec players get decent RHS, and alot of players that are decent already manipulate the racquet angle without even realizing for certain balls (because alot of it is subconsicous) , while some perhaps don't.

But being aware of this and going out and maybe playing with it a bit and experimenting, you can perhaps get some new perspective and maybe figure out something new that will help you.

Alot of people are limiting themselves, for example with a short higher bounce ball they brush up, but with a vertical racquet face, so the ball actually has quite a bit arc upwards, hence the player needs to slow down their swing in order to not overhit it, while if they would hit the same shot with a slightly forward tilted racquet the initial trajectory would go more straight and since they brush up they also get alot of spin, but now they can swing faster which means they get even more spin than before, and the trajectory is lower, so they can maybe swing 3 times as fast without the fear of hitting long which makes their shots much more effective.

For example pause at 1:98 in this video and put 0.25 speed

In this backhand short winner, Roger swings upward, but the ball after being hit travels at a downward trajectory, because his racquet is so closed, it allows him to swing extremely fast, if he did not do that he would be limited in the amount of swing speed he can hit and risk the ball going long.

 

[liam the shark]

Dude I remember hitting with a college player, I thought his shots looked flat until he hit to me and they jumped right in to me very heavy heavy spin

 

[Simon_the_furry]

Something thats really been interesting to me lately, when I was reading some old threads on this forum, is how some people claim alot of atp players like Federer hit pretty flat.

And also that topspin is overrated and only for pushers.

It seems to me that these people don't really realize what topspin is, and they seem to confuse arc of the ball with topspin.
A high arc ball automatically has a ton of topspin, while a low arc ball is flat.

But thats only the trajectory, it has nothing to do with topspin.

The reality is, the arc of the ball doesn't have much to do with topspin, you can bunt the ball in the air or slice it and it will have zero topspin.

Pro players who play fairly aggressive such as Federer and tend to hit more lower arc balls alltho they still hit their fair shair of higher arc balls, they hit with MASSIVE amounts of topspin on each of those shots, high arc or low arc.

You can go watch videos from the back perspective and see how those lower arc balls get sucked into the court like a magnet, and yet they are hit with extreme mph speeds.

You can also play against really good players or competitors and see the same thing, how their "flat" trajectory balls jump into you with massive topspin.

High level players (specially those as high as ATP pros) use topspin on all their shots, in order to:

1.Be able to hit faster and harder and get the ball in
2.Add more rotation to the ball making it jump higher and faster hence harder to deal with for the opponent

What some people don't realize is, at some point when your racquet speed is too fast and the ball is hit too fast, it will be too fast and go long, so in order to compensate that you need to hit with more topspin.

And some people will say yes.. but if you brush up the arc will automatically get bigger.. well no because you can add topspin with many different things, and also as you swing up more you add more topspin and more arc, but if you then close ur racquet face more you now get the same arc as before because the racquet angle will propell the ball at a lower angle but you brush up, so you get the same trajectory, but with much more topspin now.

And no its not hard to manage your racquet angle, you don't really think about it its more by feel, not sure how pro players do it, but whenever I want to close my racquetface more or more, I just visualize trying to contact the ball higher (above its center) and it works, so specially on those close balls at the net that bounce higher, where you can really go through the ball with a closed face in order to hit it fast and hard and not go long, I really vizualize contacting the ball very high, it might work different for other people tho.

Thats why you see alot of slow motion videos or photos of Federer with a closed racquet by x amount of angles (depending on the shot).

Thats what allows him to hit flatter arc shots that travel 80mph and bounce inside the court, if he did not add so much topspin then that ball would fly into the back fence.

So it allows you to hit harder and faster shots and YET those shots will not go long, the more racquet speed you can create the more spin you need to compensate, so you can hit FASTER shots, with MORE SPIN, which are way harder to deal with and make them land inside, when otherwise you would be capped at hitting x amount of speed, because anything more and the ball would fly too long.

So topspin is not underrated, topspin is CRUCIAL, and the faster you can swing the racquet the more topspin you need and the faster and heavier ur shots will be and harder to deal with.

And you can hit heavy topspin shots with a lower arc aswell as higher arc.

The only time you trully see players like Fed hit a fairly "flat" ball is when they have a very high ball which opens up the court angle so they can aim down into the court, because then they can really hit it fast and hard and don't need as much spin, but even those are not really that flat, but much more than the usual shots.

Anyway, maybe this helps some people go out experiment and get some aha moment or something.

Depends on the pro. I can tell you this as I've been a ball kid before. Some hit with amounts of topspin you can't even fathom. Others actually do hit almost dead flat.

 

[zalive]

Yeah, fed and other pros have different amount raquet angles depending on the shot.

Extreme examples:

1.topspin lob where u want a ton of spin but a huge arc, you swing up alot but ur raquet is less closed and more vertical.

2. Penetrating low trajectory spin winner from service line, you can simply add more up swing or more windshield wiper, but u also increase the arc, if u want to maintain a low flat arc and add alot of spin u brush up but close ur racquet angle more.

And im not arguing that players actualy think about and physically try to manipulate the racquet angle, but rather they learn how to hit all these different shots by drilling and hitting 1000000 shots so they know and feel how to hit them in order to create x amount of arc and spin, infact even leaning more forward or backward changes the angle but all this are little subconscious things that happen.

Whatever type of shot they hit if its buggy whip or a side curve running forehand or a low arc heavy spin ball, they got the muscle memory and execute it automatically, they only think about what shape of shot they want to hit and where depending on the situation and vizualize hitting it, the body does the rest.

But for low level players my point is to go vizualize things and different shaped shots and experiment with it to learn all the little things and feel them so you learn this also and it becomes natural.

But racquet's face angle (tilt) relative to the vertical line is not relevant at all, it's completely unimportant. What's relevant is the angle of racquet's face relative to the swing path.
The thing is...you cannot see this from the picture, since it doesn't show the swing path. So putting pics showing a tilt relative to vertical line is pointless.

As for low net clearance balls, in modern tennis, viewed from the camera you can often see players finishing points with winners which look like flat trajectory. And then graphics show something like 3300-3600 rpm and if you see another camera view from the ground level, you then see the clearance was not low at all...it was just false impression because of camera angle. Magnus effect says you can't have lot of topspin rpms with low clearance and good depth. Impossible. Because bigger the pace, more dip it will create, and the dip will be proportional to speed*rpms. So if net clearance is low and rpms are high, ball will land short (unless hit within service box in which case it might reach its peak height after it clears the net).

So this is where confusion is. Those winners are still often called flat balls because of their pace and because they look flat if viewed from above through the camera lens. While a video made from the ground level would tell a different story.

 

[5263]

It seems to me that these people don't really realize what topspin is, and they seem to confuse arc of the ball with topspin.
A high arc ball automatically has a ton of topspin, while a low arc ball is flat.

But thats only the trajectory, it has nothing to do with topspin.

The reality is, the arc of the ball doesn't have much to do with topspin, you can bunt the ball in the air or slice it and it will have zero topspin.

Pro players who play fairly aggressive such as Federer and tend to hit more lower arc balls alltho they still hit their fair shair of higher arc balls, they hit with MASSIVE amounts of topspin on each of those shots, high arc or low arc.

You can go watch videos from the back perspective and see how those lower arc balls get sucked into the court like a magnet, and yet they are hit with extreme mph speeds.
...........
You can also play against really good players or competitors and see the same thing, how their "flat" trajectory balls jump into you with massive topspin.

High level players (specially those as high as ATP pros) use topspin on all their shots, in order to:

1.Be able to hit faster and harder and get the ball in
2.Add more rotation to the ball making it jump higher and faster hence harder to deal with for the opponent

What some people don't realize is, at some point when your racquet speed is too fast and the ball is hit too fast, it will be too fast and go long, so in order to compensate that you need to hit with more topspin.

.........
So topspin is not underrated, topspin is CRUCIAL, and the faster you can swing the racquet the more topspin you need and the faster and heavier ur shots will be and harder to deal with.

And you can hit heavy topspin shots with a lower arc aswell as higher arc.

......
Anyway, maybe this helps some people go out experiment and get some aha moment or something.

This is along the lines of what I've tried to share on here for years, "Biting Topspin" and you are right on target with most of this. But it does have something to do with spin as well and the pros are not always hitting as fast as you think.

Imo you should have said that topspin IS often underrated and is a critical factor in the #1 tennis skill with a racket...."Bringing the ball down"

 

[5263]

Agree but what's your point here? No one here is turning pro anytime soon or hitting "10000000 shots".

Just a reminder that rec players suck?

But rec players can learn this and be better. Misunderstanding topspin's relationship to trajectory is a big reason why players at all levels struggle to perform.

 

[heninfan99]

But rec players can learn this and be better. Misunderstanding topspin's relationship to trajectory is a big reason why players at all levels struggle to perform.

Then go ahead and teach something

 

[FiReFTW]

Very good points @5263

 

[Hmgraphite1]

Bernoulli probably shows somehow, but when i hit supper hard fast serves or groundstrokes there seems to be a velocity where the spin has little to no effect . Until the ball slows down to a critical velocity it appears to travel relatively flat even though the spin rate is super high.
The bounce does i think show though if the pro actually hit a flat shot.
I think by definition flat means low spin irregardless of trajectory.

 

[FiReFTW]

Bernoulli probably shows somehow, but when i hit supper hard fast serves or groundstrokes there seems to be a velocity where the spin has little to no effect . Until the ball slows down to a critical velocity it appears to travel relatively flat even though the spin rate is super high.
The bounce does i think show though if the pro actually hit a flat shot.
I think by definition flat means low spin irregardless of trajectory.

Im not into physics much, but I think the slower the ball is the more the spin affects the ball and pulls it down (if we talk topspin) so as the ball travels it loses speed and the more the spin acts on the ball with gravity aswell, thats probably why.

 

[zalive]

Im not into physics much, but I think the slower the ball is the more the spin affects the ball and pulls it down (if we talk topspin) so as the ball travels it loses speed and the more the spin acts on the ball with gravity aswell, thats probably why.

Actually it's the opposite. Study the Magnus effect, and you'll see that sinking induced by Magnus effect will be proportional to speed. Now. It doesn't look like this because speed is higher as well, and gravity has relatively less time to effect the fall. So it will fall less relative to speed a bit. But still the Magnus effect will be more pronounced because of pace. It may not look like that at full speed, but if you drew the ball trajectory it would be apparent what happened and arc would show.

Bernoulli probably shows somehow, but when i hit supper hard fast serves or groundstrokes there seems to be a velocity where the spin has little to no effect . Until the ball slows down to a critical velocity it appears to travel relatively flat even though the spin rate is super high.
The bounce does i think show though if the pro actually hit a flat shot.
I think by definition flat means low spin irregardless of trajectory.

It's possible you impart less topspin than you think you impart, on those hard hits. Or it just doesn't look like there is spin effect purely because of pace.

But you can watch the net clearance height and the depth of the ball. If clearance is low but depth is good then there's not much topspin. If net clearance is relatively high (say, 1m above the net) and depth is good then there's significant topspin on it.

 

[rogerroger917]

Pros hit hard with spin. Check. Anything else?

 

[Hmgraphite1]

Hope to hit a playsite court someday, your prob right maybe not as much spin, but when i slow the shot down it just seemed to dive more, but it was closer to me as the others were out.

 

[MarTennis]

Massive fast impact with intent to clear the net creates more spin than a slower racquet impact with or without any intent to put spin on the ball.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

I remember hearing a pro, pretty sure they were top ten at the time, talking about the game going through the levels and you start out with good young juniors looping and playing really high and then from their out it gets flatter and faster and flatter and faster and closer to the net and faster all the way to the challenger level and then to transition from struggling at challengers to winning them and onto the main tour you need to find something else because you cant just keep going flatter and faster any more so the amount of spin or variation being used then becomes the new area where players have to go to keep improving and moving through the levels. Was interesting.

On a remotely related note, I am trying to add a flat FH drive for approach shots. Since I use Eastern grip, it's easier for me to transition into that shot. And what it does is it allows me to go for shorter length with more angle because a flat ball stays lower after bounce, making the other guy work harder for his pass. There's a lot of monotony in the pure topspin game at least at the rec level and since I am neither very strong not lanky to keep running sideways all day, this may be a worthwhile approach (no pun intended)

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Tldr version

Some think flat trajectory is low spin and high is high spin.

In practice both can be either low spin or high spin.

Pros and good players manage their racquet angle at contact (not physicaly but by feel and muscle memory by hitting 10000000 shots) which allows them a big variety and faster swinging.

2 examples

On topspin lob they lean more back so racquet is not very closed and swing up = ton of spin and huuuge arc

On short balls that bounce higher than net level they lean forward close racquet more which allows them to swing up fast but the ball leaves the racquetin a straight arc or even slighlty down if high enough ball. This allows them to hit with max speed and add heavy spun with no fear of ball going long.

There are many other examples inbetween also.

lol, thx for the tldr... i skipped the original post
IMO a better way to think about open/close face... is to think of it relative to the flight of the ball (vs. relative to the ground)
ie. on the rise topspin, face is more closed (relative to ground)
ie. topspin lob off high moonball, face might be open relative to the ground, but closed relative to steep vertical descent of a descending moonball h

 

[StringSnapper]

The tower of Tandil hits it flat as a pancake when he maxes out

 

[jga111]

The question isn't whether the ATP player plays with top spin or not.

It is what KIND of top spin.

You have the floaters that kick high when they bounce (Nadal). The ones hit with a medium trajectory, slow pace with a medium height kick (Murray). You have the ones that are flatter and with more pace (Djoko, Zverev, Dimitrov, etc). You have the ones that zip, medium pace, kicking fast off the surface (e.g Tiafoe).

Loads of forehands, loads of different type of spins.

Safe to say no one mixes it more in a match than Federer, you'll see all types from him depending how aggressive, safe, e.g

 

[jga111]

On a remotely related note, I am trying to add a flat FH drive for approach shots. Since I use Eastern grip, it's easier for me to transition into that shot. And what it does is it allows me to go for shorter length with more angle because a flat ball stays lower after bounce, making the other guy work harder for his pass. There's a lot of monotony in the pure topspin game at least at the rec level and since I am neither very strong not lanky to keep running sideways all day, this may be a worthwhile approach (no pun intended)

There is no benefit really for a flat shot as an approach shot IMO - for me its very error prone. Spin it, or slice it - flat you'll be inclined to make more errors.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

There is no benefit really for a flat shot as an approach shot IMO - for me its very error prone. Spin it, or slice it - flat you'll be inclined to make more errors.

That's not what I have found so far. Maybe I will discover more of the pitfalls going ahead. But as I said, because I am hitting it flat, I know it will stay low. So I can afford to keep it shorter. If I hit a short approach shot with lots of spin, it's going to get up to a nice hitting height for the guy at the baseline and I am dead. By going flatter, I can make it harder for him to get racquet on it and also don't need to blast the ball. Keep in mind I am talking about a forehand approach. I sometimes use a forehand slice approach but almost always as a fake.

Another thing, these are not approach shots hit from near the service line. This is a shot I make off a neutral ball. So by going flat into an open space, I am creating an opportunity for myself to attack and maybe even win the point. An equally attacking topspin shot option from the baseline would be lower percentage. It's easier to manufacture pace while driving rather than rolling.

 

[dominikk1985]

problem is the perspective on tv, most tennis matches are filmed from a high view so the game looks more like it is in 2d (like the old pong game). when you watch on tv you think it is flat but from the side or behind the court you can see the bend in the ball flight.

 

[Phillip Hofmeyr]

Thats a very good point. And proper analysis of slow motion footage (Anatoly's etc) will reveal the racket face is typically 80 degrees and the swing path is typically 55 to 60 degrees. https://www.dropbox.com/s/og1h9gxa57m9a9y/Screenshot 2018-05-08 18.44.57.png?dl=0

Just because they're pro's doesn't mean the stuff they're doing is too difficult. Topspin bio-mechanics are very simple and we should definitely be copying them!

 

[jacob22]

Hitting flat(trajectory) and hitting with topspin(rpm) are not mutually exclusive, got it. Thanks.

 

[Shroud]

On a remotely related note, I am trying to add a flat FH drive for approach shots. Since I use Eastern grip, it's easier for me to transition into that shot. And what it does is it allows me to go for shorter length with more angle because a flat ball stays lower after bounce, making the other guy work harder for his pass. There's a lot of monotony in the pure topspin game at least at the rec level and since I am neither very strong not lanky to keep running sideways all day, this may be a worthwhile approach (no pun intended)

Side spin is your friend

 

[styksnstryngs]

Bernoulli probably shows somehow, but when i hit supper hard fast serves or groundstrokes there seems to be a velocity where the spin has little to no effect . Until the ball slows down to a critical velocity it appears to travel relatively flat even though the spin rate is super high.
The bounce does i think show though if the pro actually hit a flat shot.
I think by definition flat means low spin irregardless of trajectory.

I took my AP physics 2 test yesterday, so as soon as I read this, I saw a pipe with differing diameters and flowering water in my mind.

 

[StringSnapper]

Bernoulli probably shows somehow, but when i hit supper hard fast serves or groundstrokes there seems to be a velocity where the spin has little to no effect . Until the ball slows down to a critical velocity it appears to travel relatively flat even though the spin rate is super high.
The bounce does i think show though if the pro actually hit a flat shot.
I think by definition flat means low spin irregardless of trajectory.

Ive been mimicing wawrinkas ohbh (shoulders open through contact, flatish swing path) and notice the same thing happening with my bhs now. Ill rip the ball hard and flat, and its going out, going out, going out (seemingly a completely flat trajectory) then at the last moment spins wildly down into the court. I know it has spin too cos i can feel it grip the racquet. I wish my forehand did that, i have to loop my fh a lot more so its slower and sits up if i miss my target

 

[FiReFTW]

Ive been mimicing wawrinkas ohbh (shoulders open through contact, flatish swing path) and notice the same thing happening with my bhs now. Ill rip the ball hard and flat, and its going out, going out, going out (seemingly a completely flat trajectory) then at the last moment spins wildly down into the court. I know it has spin too cos i can feel it grip the racquet. I wish my forehand did that, i have to loop my fh a lot more so its slower and sits up if i miss my target

How do you finish the shots? I noticed it helps when you drive the ball and want some extra spin that you focus in hitting through the ball but also swiping across with that windshield wiper finish where it goes up and over and then down and finishes bellow your shoulder, if you know what I mean.

With a really high ball over the net if I want less spin I focus on driving through tha ball completely, but if i want a flat trajectory with more spin I drive through but also swipe across lile a windshield wiper, fed does it alot of times when he wants to add spin to his flatter balls.

So the swingpath is through the ball, but this wiper move across adds extra spin.