GabeT
G.O.A.T.
You lost me, to be honestYeah, but you didn't address my point about Toni Nadal.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
For a second time!
Toni Nadal also said that he expects that Nadal will play until he is thirty, because of his style and mileage.
If the so called Federer fans were so delusional about that prospect, or as you agreed with another poster, were saying that more in the hope that it happens than really being objective about the probability with the available info, how about Toni Nadal, who was saying the same for years?
And he had all the information to make that call!
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
I never called Fed fans delusional. If you are going to address me you should at least read what I wroteFor a second time!
Toni Nadal also said that he expects that Nadal will play until he is thirty, because of his style and mileage.
If the so called Federer fans were so delusional about that prospect, or as you agreed with another poster, were saying that more in the hope that it happens than really being objective about the probability with the available info, how about Toni Nadal, who was saying the same for years?
And he had all the information to make that call!
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Could you point out who are "they" in the part that you bolded, and subsequently agreed with with your "good point" comment?
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
Dude, one last timeCould you point out who are "they" in the part that you bolded, and subsequently agreed with with your "good point" comment?
- I began this thread with some quick comments on last year's Wimbledon. One of the points I made was that Fed had shown other ATGs how you could continue winning even as you got older and that I expected both Nadal and Nole to continue winning slams. Remember I wrote this last July.
- Augustbot disagreed. No problem there except that he decided to be obnoxious about it and told me that my comment showed a lack of understanding of the game. He explained to me that Fed could continue winning because of his playing style, something players like Nadal or Nole could not do because they relied on physical attributes instead of the "infinite repertoire" of shots (his words) Fed could produce.
- Since last July Nadal won two slams and Nole won one. So much for the "they can't win as they get older" argument
The idea that Nadal's (and to a lesser extent Nole's ) playing style meant they would have to retire early, and that in comparison Fed was much better placed to "age well", is something many others have claimed in the past. At this point it has been emphatically proven wrong. Already at 32 Nadal has won almost as much post 30 as Fed has at age 37. And he's got another five years to win even more if he wants. So let's debate other things. Because this point is moot.
Nadal or Nole may play several more years, or they may retire tomorrow. We don't know. But they both have shown they can continue playing at the highest levels even after 30. Their physical style turned out not to hinder them after all.
tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
It is not enough if Nadal and Nole just match Fed on the 30+ performance
Given the benefits of knowing the path taken by a living model in terms of style, diet, scheduling , etc and given advances in technology in terms of match review , stats , fitness regimes , Nadal and Novak need to achieve 1.5X- 2X what Fed achieved to say they did comparatively well.
Given the benefits of knowing the path taken by a living model in terms of style, diet, scheduling , etc and given advances in technology in terms of match review , stats , fitness regimes , Nadal and Novak need to achieve 1.5X- 2X what Fed achieved to say they did comparatively well.
duaneeo
Legend
I can see why some thought Nadal wouldn't last long. Unlike Federer and Djokovic, he's never had surgery (not counting the appendectomy), but it seems he's always hampered with something. He's missed six slam tournaments since winning his first in 2005. Djokovic has only missed one slam in his entire career, and the 32-year-old Federer hadn't missed any.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
I hate to break it for you, but you actually didn't answer my question.
As for whether they have exceeded their own expectations for their longevity, especially in Nadal's case you can adjust his age with the time he was out of competition, which is approximately 2.5 years.
Djokovic is more interesting case, but I don't think that he relies on the same game as in say 2011-2012, so, if such predictions were made, it was based on their style at the time.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
Say what???
Tennis_Hands
Banned
I know that it will never be agreed upon, but what you say is absolutely correct.
It is much easier to emulate someone and spare yourself the mistakes while gaining the necessary knowledge.
I have always said it, that Nadal has copied Federer almost everywhere where it was feasible.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
I hate to break it for you, but you actually didn't answer my question.
As for whether they have exceeded their own expectations for their longevity, especially in Nadal's case you can adjust his age with the time he was out of competition, which is approximately 2.5 years.
Djokovic is more interesting case, but I don't think that he relies on the same game as in say 2011-2012, so, if such predictions were made, it was based on their style at the time.
Dude, the “prediction” was from last July.
And “adjust for time out of competition”? Nadal is 29 today?
Whatever.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Leaving aside the required achievements as per his post, the scheduling, the mistakes with equipment etc. are all points that benefit the subsequent generation(s).
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
What in the world has that got to do with augustbot’s prediction on July 2017 that Nole and Nadal would not be able to win as they got older due to their playing style?Leaving aside the required achievements as per his post, the scheduling, the mistakes with equipment etc. are all points that benefit the subsequent generation(s).
zagor
Bionic Poster
It's harder to be a pioneer. Other have the advantage of building up on your knowledge and example, standing on the shoulder of giants.
It goes for Fed too, Sampras was the one who first started the peak for slams approach to the game and Agassi showed how you play in your mid-deep 30s to stay relevant (stand closer to the baseline and take the ball early off both wings).
Tennis_Hands
Banned
"Dude", if the prediction that Nadal will last until he's 30 was from last July, when he was 31, something should tell you that you either didn't understand it, or it was some kind of a joke.
Nadal is 32 now, but to ignore that he had rest (mentally and physically) from the competition for 2.5 years when the talk is about longevity is a farce.
I thought that you were serious about this discussion.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
His comment wasn't directly related to their longevity, but rather to the expected benefits for them going forward.
I thought that that much is clear.
sredna42
Hall of Fame
"Cocaine's a helluva drug" - J.A James
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
Wasn’t that my point from the very beginning? That’s exactly what I wrote at the start of this thread, that Nole and Nadal would learn from Federer and seek to continue winning as they got older.
But augustbot claimed I didn’t understand tennis and that Nole and Nadal’s playing style made it impossible for them to follow Fed’s lead.
Luckily for Nole and Nadal they didn’t read augustbot’s post and went on to win three of the following four slams.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
You seem to make less sense with each successive post.His comment directly related to their longevity, but rather to the expected benefits for them going forward.
I thought that that much is clear.
zagor
Bionic Poster
Oh right, I get your point now. Yeah, he was proven wrong in that regard.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
Posters are wrong all the time. I only highlighted this because augustbot was so obnoxious about it. All in good fun!
tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
Fed is the pioneer and trend setter for players of the modern era. Prior to Fed, with sole exception of Agassi who had soft opoonents towards the end , the career of greats ended at 30 when it came to winning big titles . Even the great Connors had a barren record after 1982 till he made that SF run in 1991
So in these kind of threads when we talk of relative performamce of Nole and Rafa as compared to Fed, the bar should be set significantly higher than what Fed achieved rather than just the same as what Fed did.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
You seem to make less sense with each successive post.
The truth is exactly the opposite.
I am pretty factual in my analysis, and you seem to fail to follow the things you say with adequate argumentation
So much so, that you need to modify your initial argument to continue the discussion.
In your OP, you were talking about expectations of many people, and now you are down to one particular poster who said something in one particular period, when we know fully well that the debate about the baseline grinders is raging for more than a decade (at least as far as the current crop of fans is concerned).
Moreover, you flat out refuse to accept very reasonable arguments that correct the idea of the current age, being the corresponding age as per those general predictions.
As for that one prediction of one particular poster, it doesn't make or break the basis for such a debate.
You had a somewhat good idea for a discussion, but are about to blow it with your tactics.
Either it is a debate about the longevity of the players like Nadal and Djokovic, or it is small talk about how we do not understand each other.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
Don’t necessarily disagree but I’m not sure how this is related to my points in this discussion
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
OkThe truth is exactly the opposite.
I am pretty factual in my analysis, and you seem to fail to follow the things you say with adequate argumentation
So much so, that you need to modify your initial argument to continue the discussion.
In your OP, you were talking about expectations of many people, and now you are down to one particular poster who said something in one particular period, when we know fully well that the debate about the baseline grinders is raging for more than a decade (at least as far as the current crop of fans is concerned).
Moreover, you flat out refuse to accept very reasonable arguments that correct the idea of the current age, being the corresponding age as per those general predictions.
As for that one prediction of one particular poster, it doesn't make or break the basis for such a debate.
You had a somewhat good idea for a discussion, but are about to blow it with your tactics.
Either it is a debate about the longevity of the players like Nadal and Djokovic, or it is small talk about how we do not understand each other.
tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
The moment a player wins a title , we start looking at absolue numbers without context. For example, Djokovic reaching 14 does not necessarily mean he is more or lesser than Sampras. One needs to evaluate relative competition, what were the targets those times, what surfaces existed and so on
We are so quick to do the number game based on what we read from Wikipedia
Borg was the best of his era, Pete was the best of his ..honestly I don't know if I can say Fed is better than them .
So whoever broke barriers is a legend in my books. The Nole Slam is one such thing
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Ok
One other thing that needs to be pointed out is that when you talk about you being proven right is that you are talking about now, and the realisation, whether Nadal's and Djokovic's games will age as good as Federer's is far in the future.
You also have to account for competition. Something that I told you to pay attention to, when I talked about Federer's competition when he was the current Nadal age.
Nadal "aged better" against weaker competition, so you missed to include that in your analysis as well.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
I’m not disagreeing. And I like what you say about the Nole Slam!
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
One other thing that needs to be pointed out is that when you talk about you being proven right is that you are talking about now, and the realisation, whether Nadal's and Djokovic's games will age as good as Federer's is far in the future.
You also have to account for competition. Something that I told you to pay attention to, when I talked about Federer's competition when he was the current Nadal age.
Nadal "aged better" against weaker competition, so you missed to include that in your analysis as well.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Well, that was a convincing argument.
Next time, before you make a thread think about whether it isn't better to start with it.
That way noone will mistake your thread for something serious.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
Well, that was a convincing argument.
Next time, before you make a thread think about whether it isn't better to start with it.
That way noone will mistake your thread for something serious.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
augustobt
Legend
When I said that? Quote my message saying that.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
Here’s what I originally wrote that you responded to:
Pretty straightforward, no? All I was saying was that Nole and Nadal would follow Fed’s lead and continue playing and likey win matches. Not very controversial, I think. Almost basic.
You chose to respond by telling me that my post “ shows lack of understanding of the game”. Insulting from the very beginning.
And why was I so wrong? Because, according to you, Federer’s game doesn’t rely on speed and physique like Nole and Nadal and so they would not be able to follow in Fed’s footsteps.
Of course after that post Nole and Nadal went on to win three of the next four slams.
So tell me what is it that I don’t understand about the game that apparently you do?
helterskelter
G.O.A.T.
I see what you mean, but it could be that taking breaks will keep him fresh, as happened with Serena Williams.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
You don't get it.
There are two things:
1) both Nadal and Djokovic are changing their games, so, the said is true for them, if they rely on their old games
2) you are talking about aged Federer
That is 34-35 + so neither of those players is still anywhere the time when he proves that he can match Federer's longevity.
If Wawrinka can win Majors aged 32 certainly that is not considered "old" any more. A bit of perspective is not a bad thing from time to time.
Also, you still fail to address what I told you about the time Nadal had to sit out of the game.
That is the problem with some fans: as soon as their favourite starts showing his head above the water, they start making rounds like entitled *****, and tell everyone how correct they are.
Well, I also expected Djokovic to win Majors again, but that doesn't mean that I cannot put the things in perspective.
Now, go find another gif.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
You seem to make less and less sense. But whatever makes you happy I guess.You don't get it.
There are two things:
1) both Nadal and Djokovic are changing their games, so, the said is true for them, if they rely on their old games
2) you are talking about aged Federer
That is 34-35 + so neither of those players is still anywhere the time when he proves that he can match Federer's longevity.
If Wawrinka can win Majors aged 32 certainly that is not considered "old" any more. A bit of perspective is not a bad thing from time to time.
Also, you still fail to address what I told you about the time Nadal had to sit out of the game.
That is the problem with some fans: as soon as their favourite starts showing his head above the water, they start making rounds like entitled *****, and tell everyone how correct they are.
Well, I also expected Djokovic to win Majors again, but that doesn't mean that I cannot put the things in perspective.
Now, go find another gif.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Well, you started this thread, and it seems that the only reason you did it is to announce that you are "right".
Self-patting on the back is certainly a thing, especially if no sensible arguments are accepted.
Well done.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
But it was you that chose to get in the middle of a discussion between me and augustobt yet not address the points of that discussion. I am happy to debate but you have to address the points I actually made, not the ones you think I made.Well, you started this thread, and it seems that the only reason you did it is to announce that you are "right".
Self-patting on the back is certainly a thing, especially if no sensible arguments are accepted.
Well done.
For example, you say that neither Nole nor Nadal is 34-35 yet so we don't know if they will have the same success as Fed at that age. That's all fine but I never claimed otherwise. I never claimed that Nole or Nadal would have the exact same results as Fed at exactly the same age. All I said is that Fed's success would act as guidance for Nole and Nadal in terms of continuing to push as they got older and that I thought both would continue to win slams. That is ALL I said. So if you want to debate address that, not what you imagine I said.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
No, you didn't. You simply imagined new arguments no one had made, like the 34-35 age.I addressed the points in the OP.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
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