Something that people need to understand about 2015 Federer

ForehandCross

ForehandCross

G.O.A.T.
Bottom line : he was an amazing opponent, very good especially on grass and HC.

But strategically he had enough gaping holes in his game that could be exploited by a very complete player(Ala Djokovic ).



The guy had literally decided to not play any rallies going over 5 shots. That just can't happen in a baseline dominated era. He lacked consistency from back of the court and he covered it with huge serve and net rush, of course those are the terms Federer wants play every match on, but someone like Djokovic would always bulldoze such an approach over bo5.


What people forget that Federer was way too suicidally aggressive in his matches. This just wasn't going to hold against an in form ATG like Djokovic over 3-4 hr period.
People need to stop saying things like 2015 Federer could have won a bo5 match against 2015 Djokovic. He won't, not at USO or anywhere.


I am sick of hearing how "Federer lost important points by silly mistakes IN USO 2015 F Or Wimbledon F"

No, they weren't really silly, Federer just decided to be overly aggressive as he thought he could never beat Djokovic from baseline.

Being crafty doesn't win you GS now, being solid does.



There is a good reason why 2017 won slams and beat a resurgent Nadal , unlike 2015 , 2017 did not thoroughly neglect the baseline . Infact early 2017 was very happy junk balling from the back. But if Djokovic was around, he again would expose Federer's relatively bad movement to FH side.

So even though 2015 was a great player, his playing style was so niche and suicidal that it ensured that he won't be able to defeat a well playing consistent Djokovic.



If you want a recent version of Federer who would stand a chance against 2015 Djokovic in bo5 , look at 2011-12. 2015-17 would be Massacred.

USO gives people false hope as Djokovic didn't really bring it and Wimbledon could have and should have been a straight setter.
 
Jonesy said:
He made the right decision, but came off short. Fed would never beat Djoker from the baseline.
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He never would. But to neglect it was wrong.

2011 actually didn't outdid Djokovic from baseline at RG and USO, but he wasn't as hopeless from the baseline so he had options to adapt a mixed up game, and it worked.
 
ForehandCross said:
Bottom line : he was an amazing opponent, very good especially on grass and HC.

But strategically he had enough gaping holes in his game that could be exploited by a very complete player(Ala Djokovic ).



The guy had literally decided to not play any rallies going over 5 shots. That just can't happen in a baseline dominated era. He lacked consistency from back of the court and he covered it with huge serve and net rush, of course those are the terms Federer wants play every match on, but someone like Djokovic would always bulldoze such an approach over bo5.


What people forget that Federer was way too suicidally aggressive in his matches. This just wasn't going to hold against an in form ATG like Djokovic over 3-4 hr period.
People need to stop saying things like 2015 Federer could have won a bo5 match against 2015 Djokovic. He won't, not at USO or anywhere.


I am sick of hearing how "Federer lost important points by silly mistakes IN USO 2015 F Or Wimbledon F"

No, they weren't really silly, Federer just decided to be overly aggressive as he thought he could never beat Djokovic from baseline.

Being crafty doesn't win you GS now, being solid does.



There is a good reason why 2017 won slams and beat a resurgent Nadal , unlike 2015 , 2017 did not thoroughly neglect the baseline . Infact early 2017 was very happy junk balling from the back. But if Djokovic was around, he again would expose Federer's relatively bad movement to FH side.

So even though 2015 was a great player, his playing style was so niche and suicidal that it ensured that he won't be able to defeat a well playing consistent Djokovic.



If you want a recent version of Federer who would stand a chance against 2015 Djokovic in bo5 , look at 2011-12. 2015-17 would be Massacred.

USO gives people false hope as Djokovic didn't really bring it and Wimbledon could have and should have been a straight setter.
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2017 would have a better chance as he played very well from the baseline.
 
KINGROGER said:
2019 Fed matched Djokovic from the baseline at Wimbledon so I expect 2017 would have a good chance over BO5 too.
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2015 Djokovic especially in WB F was a level above 2019 . Last two sets were as close to unplayable as anyone can go on modern grass, it would have taken the very best versions of Federer to tame him. 2017 or 2019 might stand a slightly bigger chance than 2015, but they too are going down easy.
 
Federer moved to a more aggressive approach starting in 2014 because he was reaching an older age. Although now in hindsight it looks like he didn't need to because there are so many top older players now, at the time it was almost unprecedented to perform that well at that age (Agassi and Connors being notable exceptions). Overall I thought his game was pretty solid throughout 2015, but he didn't have as many plan B strategies as he did when he was younger because of his slower movement which caused him to lose to randoms.

Also, let's keep in mind, 2015 was Djokovic's second best year form-wise, nobody was able to touch him that year. Wawrinka had to play lights out against him to win the French Open
 
But one thing I will say , the style with he played in 2015 summer was just beautiful even though flawed.

His Cincy matches are a thing of beauty.
 
2015 Fed was very good for the most part. Biggest problem was he didn't have the legs to play percentage tennis against a player as great as Djokovic so he had to play outside his comfort zone and he couldn't maintain the intensity required to execute his gameplan in the biggest matches.
 
He didn't had legs!? Dude completely outrun Djokovic in post 2014 matches. Sometimes the stats showed 700-800 meters and up to 1 km more mileage in favour Federer.
These myths and lies that Federer was completely physically incapacitated, crippled and on crutches in his matches against Djokovic, are getting ridiculous right now.
 
Also this Raining hopes dude need to stop to open threads about his daily insecurities about his sports idol. Federer was beaten fair and square in those matches. Stop with the excuses and deal with it. ;)
 
Nadal_Django said:
He didn't had legs!? Dude completely outrun Djokovic in post 2014 matches. Sometimes the stats showed 700-800 meters and up to 1 km more mileage in favour Federer.
These myths and lies that Federer was completely physically incapacitated, crippled and on crutches in his matches against Djokovic, are getting ridiculous right now.
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Ahem. If you had spent even an iota of time to actually used your basic tennis understand why Federer had to run more you would not have made this post.

A) Djokovic plays angles a lot, especially to the Forehand side now, and since Federer no longer has the same ability to string a respectable ball back, he coughs up a weak ball, and the running continues.


B) The Myth isn't about physical inability , the entire thread is about style of play, which wasn't apt as proven by Federer's matches with Djokovic.

When he was asked if he would recommend same strategy for Rafa, Tony himself said something along the lines that he didn't want Nadal to adapt such risky style and deemed it unstable.


Now, Federer also had lost the sharpness off the FH side, a quick look at highlights of 2011-12 Slam matches between Fedovic, and you see how decently Federer matches Djokovic from Baseline, giving himself more options and thus being more competitive.

2015 had to net rush and serve big , just to not get straight setted.
 
Nadal_Django said:
Also this Raining hopes dude need to stop to open threads about his daily insecurities about his sports idol. Federer was beaten fair and square in those matches. Stop with the excuses and deal with it. ;)
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Ahem, find in the entire thread where I made any excuse?

Also , I had many DAs on MTF but here this is my first account.

Try deflecting the argument some more.
 
61 sets out of 62 won excluding the two Slam finals against Djokovic.

61-1 vs field
2-6 vs Djokovic in slams

Field included players ranked #1, #2, #3, #5, #12, #13, #15, #22, #22, #23, #27, #29
 
Nadal_Django said:
He didn't had legs!? Dude completely outrun Djokovic in post 2014 matches. Sometimes the stats showed 700-800 meters and up to 1 km more mileage in favour Federer.
These myths and lies that Federer was completely physically incapacitated, crippled and on crutches in his matches against Djokovic, are getting ridiculous right now.
Click to expand...

Guy doesn't even quote me when he posts these strawman anymore :-D

Less speed ---> Unable to hit with enough power and depth when on the move ---> Consistently behind in the points ---> Therefore forced to run more

The fact you think Djokovic beating Federer by making him run is somehow a counter to my point about Fed feeling he needed to play lower percentage tennis to win says it all about you ;)
 
ForehandCross said:
Ahem, find in the entire thread where I made any excuse?

Also , I had many DAs on MTF but here this is my first account.

Try deflecting the argument some more.
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If you don't want to make it sound like an excuse try this:

''He was playing his best tennis, but not a type of tennis that could hurt Djokovic.''
 
Nadal_Django said:
He didn't had legs!? Dude completely outrun Djokovic in post 2014 matches. Sometimes the stats showed 700-800 meters and up to 1 km more mileage in favour Federer.
These myths and lies that Federer was completely physically incapacitated, crippled and on crutches in his matches against Djokovic, are getting ridiculous right now.
Click to expand...
Don't worry, the backfire is that Djokodal are being as fit as Federer in their 30s and are sweeping the field.

Let's hope this virus doesn't break their momentum.
 
He has done alright since his decline because he is a talented version of Santoro and there are two lost generations after Rafa/ Nole/ Andy/ Stan
 
Lew II said:
If you don't want to make it sound like an excuse try this:

''He was playing his best tennis, but not a type of tennis that could hurt Djokovic.''
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Maybe in terms of difficulty of pulling off the game plan, which on paper was no where near suitable for the courts of 2015, it did require the very very best of him. To pull off a style of play which was so unique , when every top player was busy grinding, is absolutely a big big feat. So yes execution wise,given the difficulty it might have been his best tennis.

And he made it work against 99.999% of the field , so kudos to him.
 
Krish0608 said:
2017 Federer would have had a better shot at beating Djokovic. 2017 Federer is the best Federer since 2012. It's a pity he never played Novak that year.
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Would have loved to see Djokovic Wim 2015 final vs Federer Wim 17 final or Djokovic AO 15 final vs Federer AO 17 final.
 
KINGROGER said:
Nah Fed played more sustainable tennis, especially in 2017.

2017 >>>>> 2019 clay-grass > 2014 > 2015 >>>>> 2018
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Naah.
2015 was better on grass and clay.
Just unlucky to run into zoning wawrinka and Djokovic.
Or else he'd have won 2 clay titles including rome m1000, Wimbledon in the short span of 2 months
 
Just watched the '15 Wimbledon F video again.

The commentator said in the 6 matches coming into the final, Federer had to face 4 break points. That's incredible, that's top-notch tennis. In the semi, Murray had 1 break point, in Fed's very first service game. Fed was playing sublime tennis (as all tennis analysts acknowledged prior to the match), he would've overwhelmed any other opponent.

There's no way '17 version of Fed even came close to '14 or '15. I remembered watching the '17 F, I thought both finalists were ordinary, and thought, if Djokovic were not injured, he'd have won easily over either finalist.

Djokovic as an opponent would ask questions of Federer that a healthy Cilic could only dream of! Much less an injured Cilic!
 
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Lew II said:
Contradicts your theory that players get worse as they age.
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I disagree with KR's ranking to a degree, but even so no one said decline was totally linear...

IIRC Fed said he wasn't totally comfortable with the new racket until 2017 when he had 6 months off to really practice hard with it, he had a new coach, new "nothing to lose mentality" etc...2015 Fed was still better in several big events most notably the USO and YEC - maybe Wimbledon too.
 
NatF said:
I disagree with KR's ranking to a degree, but even so no one said decline was totally linear...

IIRC Fed said he wasn't totally comfortable with the new racket until 2017 when he had 6 months off to really practice hard with it, he had a new coach, new "nothing to lose mentality" etc...2015 Fed was still better in several big events most notably the USO and YEC - maybe Wimbledon too.
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I think it's just the good old ''Federer is better when he wins''.
 
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Lew II said:
I think it's just the good old ''Federer is better when he wins''.
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Definitely some of that. Obviously he was better at the AO, Miami, Shangai though at least? I'm guessing he lost less sets on grass before the Wimbledon final than in 2015 too which is one hour favourite stats...
 
weakera said:
Yikes
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I think Djokovic's outfit was brilliant. Uniqlo was quite good for Novak.

Nadal's was decent too

images
 
NatF said:
I disagree with KR's ranking to a degree, but even so no one said decline was totally linear...

IIRC Fed said he wasn't totally comfortable with the new racket until 2017 when he had 6 months off to really practice hard with it, he had a new coach, new "nothing to lose mentality" etc...2015 Fed was still better in several big events most notably the USO and YEC - maybe Wimbledon too.
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Wow Fed changing his racquet in 2013 but only gets comfortable in 2017.. :D 4 years for adjusting to the new racquet. :laughing: That's a really really long time for adjusting to the "new" racquet by someone who is claiming to be the Goat...
Can you claim that something is new anyway when you're already using it for 4 years!? Hmm...:unsure:
Either that, or another ImageMyth from the Maestronian funhouse.:D
 
Nadal_Django said:
Wow Fed changing his racquet in 2013 but only gets comfortable in 2017.. :D 4 years for adjusting to the new racquet. :laughing: That's a really really long time for adjusting to the "new" racquet by someone who is claiming to be the Goat...
Can you claim that something is new anyway when you're already using it for 4 years!? Hmm...:unsure:
Either that, or another ImageMyth from the Maestronian funhouse.:D
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Adaptation to new racquet was longer than 2004-07 peak.
 
Nadal_Django said:
Wow Fed changing his racquet in 2013 but only gets comfortable in 2017.. :D 4 years for adjusting to the new racquet. :laughing: That's a really really long time for adjusting to the "new" racquet by someone who is claiming to be the Goat...
Can you claim that something is new anyway when you're already using it for 4 years!? Hmm...:unsure:
Either that, or another ImageMyth from the Maestronian funhouse.:D
Click to expand...

I see you dodged my other reply to you. Probably a good idea.

I'm just going off what Fed said, you like to take his word as gospel so take it up with him;

https://www.tennis.com/pro-game/201...nge-backhand-rafael-nadal-indian-wells/64840/

"I think the backhand has gotten better because I have been able to put in so many hours onto the racquet now," he told reporters following his fourth-round win at Indian Wells. "And since this year, I feel super comfortable with the racquet, and I think I have gained confidence stepping into it.

"I think it was the work that I had in [the offseason]. You never play 10 backhand-to-backhand shots, but in practice you practice those a ton and eventually they are ingrained in the system. You need good footwork, because if the footwork is not good, you won't be on top of the ball."

I believe he said something similar in the AO 2017 post final interviews.
 
Lew II said:
Adaptation to new racquet was longer than 2004-07 peak.
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You do realise that he only made the switch full time in 2014? He had two full seasons with it in 2014-2015 but missed most of 2016 due to injury, during the extended off season he trained hard and got fully comfortable with it. That's 2.5 to 3 years at best while 04-07 was 4 years - which number is bigger?

These guys have every bit of their equipment finely tuned, he could obviously play with the new stick straight away but you think it's strange that it took a while to feel totally comfortable with a new racket after a drastic change after 15+ years? Sure thing (y)

Again those were Fed's words, you seem to take everything else he says right on the nose so I don't expect you to argue too much about this unless you want to be a hypocrit.
 
NatF said:
You do realise that he only made the switch full time in 2014? He had two full seasons with it in 2014-2015 but missed most of 2016 due to injury, during the extended off season he trained hard and got fully comfortable with it. That's 2.5 to 3 years at best while 04-07 was 4 years - which number is bigger?

These guys have every bit of their equipment finely tuned, he could obviously play with the new stick straight away but you think it's strange that it took a while to feel totally comfortable with a new racket after a drastic change after 15+ years? Sure thing (y)

Again those were Fed's words, you seem to take everything else he says right on the nose so I don't expect you to argue too much about this unless you want to be a hypocrit.
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Whatever. Djokovic leads the h2h 4-1 since Federer adapted to the new racquet.
 
NatF said:
You do realise that he only made the switch full time in 2014? He had two full seasons with it in 2014-2015 but missed most of 2016 due to injury, during the extended off season he trained hard and got fully comfortable with it. That's 2.5 to 3 years at best while 04-07 was 4 years - which number is bigger?

These guys have every bit of their equipment finely tuned, he could obviously play with the new stick straight away but you think it's strange that it took a while to feel totally comfortable with a new racket after a drastic change after 15+ years? Sure thing (y)

Again those were Fed's words, you seem to take everything else he says right on the nose so I don't expect you to argue too much about this unless you want to be a hypocrit.
Click to expand...

I don't know much about racquet but I have read that Pros are super hesitant change simple things like tensions in the string in their usual racquets, let alone changing an entire racquet.

However, personally I have tried several racquets and with most of them I play almost same. Of course can't compare myself with pro.
 
NatF said:
Nice response after getting owned. Guess that stung huh.
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You said that Fed's problem with Djokovic in 2014-16 was that he had not adapted to the racquet yet. He adapted only in 2017.

Since 2017 the h2h is 4-1 Djokovic.

So the problem was not adapting to the racquet?
 
HetTheGreaterer said:
Naah.
2015 was better on grass and clay.
Just unlucky to run into zoning wawrinka and Djokovic.
Or else he'd have won 2 clay titles including rome m1000, Wimbledon in the short span of 2 months
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Nah not for me. I’ll take 2019 Fed all day over 2014/2015 on slow Wimbledon grass that requires better returning and baseline play. 14/15 on fast courts though.
 
Lew II said:
You said that Fed's problem with Djokovic in 2014-16 was that he had not adapted to the racquet yet. He adapted only in 2017.

Since 2017 the h2h is 4-1 Djokovic.

So the problem was not adapting to the racquet?
Click to expand...
Are you on a windup with this? They didn’t play a single match in 2017, by far Federer’s best year since 2012.
 
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