Somewhat mini tennis.

MoxMonkey

MoxMonkey

Professional
So let me say I like mini tennis. I think a decent amount of men when they start playing tennis think mini tennis is somewhat stupid, I sure did. As the months have went by I have come to like it alot, and think it helps alot.

My question is this.

Has anyone here ever played mini tennis further back? Like with both players standing a couple feet inside the baseline? I think it might help with rhythm. You could take full swings with a slower tempo.
 
Curious said:
Waste of time. Mini tennis.
Middle of no man’s land, maybe.
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If MT is a waste of time, why would standing a bit further back be OK?

When I do MT, I stand about 4' behind the SL [the same distance I stand behind the BL]. That means I'm 25' from the net [service box is 21' long]. If I were to move to the middle of NML [ie halfway between SL & BL], the distance would increase to 30'. How does that extra 5' make such a huge difference?

BTW: MT to me does not mean standing on the SL. That's too close.

Here are some people wasting their time:




 
Also quite rarely done by pro players. I’ve been to hundreds of practice sessions. I doubt it was done more often than 10% of the time.
 
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Curious said:
Actual short balls seem to be hit quite differently from those people hit in MT.
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Your coach didn't mention how the ball was hit. He mentioned from where the ball was hit. ["You don’t play tennis from there."]

You're right about how the ball is struck. I still find it useful, perhaps more as a confirmation that my stroke is smooth than the cause of it.

It’s hard to believe Federer would miss something very important or that beneficial.
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It's also hard to believe Djokovic and Henin and Woz and Haas would spend time on useless things.
 
Curious said:
Also quite rarely done by pro players. I’ve been to hundreds of practice sessions. I doubt it was more than 10% of the time.
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Look, I get that you don't want to do/don't like MT. And I can't argue with your reasoning.

So if your opponent wants to do MT but you do not, will you oblige?
 
Anyway I’ve always thought I need to warm up my movement and timing at the baseline. Then why shouldn’t I start doing that from the baseline? If I warm up with mini tennis, I need to warm up once again at baseline anyway.
 
Curious said:
My coach also says it’s a waste of time.;)
You don’t play tennis from there, he added. Also added laughing ‘ ever seen Federer doing it?’
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I think everyone is different but I would say that mini tennis gives a good warm up esp for weekend warriors who only play 1-2 times a week.
 
pencilcheck said:
I think everyone is different but I would say that mini tennis gives a good warm up esp for weekend warriors who only play 1-2 times a week.
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Physical warm up is something I do by myself without the opponent before a match. The actual warm up hit to me is about timing and feel, and as I need that mostly at the baseline I would prefer warming it up at where I need it.
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
It's also hard to believe Djokovic and Henin and Woz and Haas would spend time on useless things.
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Don't be religious towards them, they are people and may do weird things :-D
Think of it in such a way: they spend so much time on court that there's a chance they have done ANYTHING on court, including something which I hope will never be recorded :X3:

I actually find mini-tennis to be a useful drill, situationally (to make a flat hitter learn extreme brushing to then settle with balanced topspin shots, for example). I also prefer to stand further hitting into the box in warmup, and not care much about landing shots just past the SL in addition to couple of ft inside. Kind of low intensity warmup with less RHS produced and delivered to the ball compared to full baseline hitting.
 
MoxMonkey said:
So let me say I like mini tennis. I think a decent amount of men when they start playing tennis think mini tennis is somewhat stupid, I sure did. As the months have went by I have come to like it alot, and think it helps alot.

My question is this.

Has anyone here ever played mini tennis further back? Like with both players standing a couple feet inside the baseline? I think it might help with rhythm. You could take full swings with a slower tempo.
Click to expand...

A few minutes of MT are helpful.

At times the coach wanted me to go progresively back, towards the BL.

The problem with playing inside the BL is that too many idiots at my club (including my latest and 6th partner) can only do that, as they don't have full swings....
 
Curious said:
My coach also says it’s a waste of time.;)
You don’t play tennis from there, he added. Also added laughing ‘ ever seen Federer doing it?’
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Matter of fact, have seen RF doing it with Rafa. Don't know if it's something he still does regularly but, yes, he has done it. I recall seeing Justine Henin doing in person. 6 years ago I had posted Caro Woz doing it on Ian W's video. Time for a new coach?

Novak & Stanimal:

 
SystemicAnomaly said:
Matter of fact, have seen RF doing it with Rafa. Don't know if it's something he still does regularly but, yes, he has done it. I recall seeing Justine Henin doing in person. 6 years ago I had posted Caro Woz doing it on Ian W's video. Time for a new coach?

Novak & Stanimal:

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Posted before, I’ve been to hundreds of practice sessions at AO over the years. I doubt they do it more often than 10% of the time, both WTA and ATP by the way. What would you say to that?
Could it be that it’s a habit for some players, or some just like doing that? If it was such a big thing as claimed by TTW crowd we would be seeing it much more often, right?
 
Is this really a topic to get worked up about? I imagine people who do mini tennis before the warmup do it for maybe 5 minutes and then move back to the baseline. I kind of like it just to warm up a bit, I think it does help on my backhand side in particular to work on the brush to get the topspin. If someone wanted to skip it I'd be fine with it. And if I was limited for time, i.e. had the court for only an hour I would skip it. Not sure if it's worth worrying about it so much. If you don't like it, just don't do it.
 
3loudboys said:
MT helps with TS production when drilled correctly. My sons coach (former pro player) demoed a drill corner to corner of the service box with emphasis on Spin generation. It works.
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This is one of several reasons that I advocate MT. It can also be a great way to "wake up" your hand-eye coordination prior to playing / competition.

MT also promotes early preparation. Many players find MT difficult because they have a habit of preparing late and, as a result tend to be rushed and swing very fast on every shot. This limits variety & the ability to vary stroke speed.

MT helps to develop touch. It also promotes employing a shorter takeback on deeper shots, as one would do for hitting half-volleys or other shots on the rise. When I perform MT with students, near the back service line, we employ a short or compact takeback but a fairly full follow-thru. Many of those will be a WW finish. As we move back to the middle of NML, takebacks maybe somewhat less compact -- unless the incoming shot is deep.
 
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Curious said:
Posted before, I’ve been to hundreds of practice sessions at AO over the years. I doubt they do it more often than 10% of the time, both WTA and ATP by the way. What would you say to that?
Could it be that it’s a habit for some players, or some just like doing that? If it was such a big thing as claimed by TTW crowd we would be seeing it much more often, right?
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Check out the reasons I listed in post #22. I suspect many pro players engaged in MT as they were developing as Junior players. However, as world-class elite players, their muscle memory and hand-eye are so good that they do not perform MT as much as they did in their developing years. Just because you do not see a lot of pro players still performing MT, does not mean that it cannot be highly beneficial for us mere mortals.

I've witnessed a high percentage of competitive junior players and collegiate players engaging in MT.
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
This is one of several reasons that I advocate MT. It can also be a great way to "wake up" your hand-eye coordination prior to playing / competition.

MT also promotes early preparation. Many players find MT difficult because they have a habit of preparing late and, as a result tend to be rushed and swing very fast on every shot. This limits variety & the ability vary stroke speed.

MT helps to develop touch. It also promotes employing a shorter takeback on deeper shots, as one would do for hitting half-volleys or other shots on the rise. When I perform MT with students, near the back service line, we employ a short or compact takeback but a fairly full follow-thru. Many of those will be a WW finish.
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That is a great summary of its benefits. Whilst I keep harking back to my sons coaches, he also had a Croatian hitter a year back who was ranked about 350 or thereabouts. Every hit would be subtle variations of MT for 5-10 mins at the start.
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
Check out the reasons I listed in post #22. I suspect many pro players engaged in MT as they were developing as Junior players. However, as world-class elite players, their muscle memory and hand-eye are so good that they do not perform MT as much as they did in their developing years. Just because you do not see a lot of pro players still performing MT, does not mean that it cannot be highly beneficial for us mere mortals.

I've witnessed a high percentage of competitive junior players and collegiate players engaging in MT.
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If you’re saying that MT is/should be more of a practice than a warm up routine then MT is the only practice that the majority of rec players do!:D
 
Curious said:
If you’re saying that MT is/should be more of a practice than a warm up routine then MT is the only practice that the majority of rec players do!:D
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Didn't say that. We often used MT as part of our warm up routine prior to play. It doesn't warm up the muscles so much as it warms up your mind & your reflexes (reaction time). Other times we would use it as part of a practice session for reasons I stated in my previous post.

Sometimes, when warming up, we spent only a few minutes performing MT. Other times we'd spend 15 mins or so if we we're "shooting the bull" or if we needed to get out the cobwebs.

Often, when playing in the evening, after work, we might not feel physically exhausted when we started but we sometimes felt mentally drained or unfocused from the job. MT is a great way to recharge or regain that focus (and hand-eye).
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
Didn't say that. We often used MT as part of our warm up routine prior to play. It doesn't warm up the muscles so much as it warms up your mind & your reflexes (reaction time). Other times we would use it as part of a practice session for reasons I stated in my previous post.

Sometimes, when warming up, we spent only a few minutes performing MT. Other times we'd spend 15 mins or so if we we're "shooting the bull" or if we needed to get out the cobwebs.

Often, when playing in the evening, after work, we might not feel physically exhausted when we started but we sometimes felt mentally drained or unfocused from the job. MT is a great way to recharge or regain that focus (and hand-eye).
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Tell me a reason for doing MT instead of baseline hitting other than the fact that it’s easier to do.
 
Curious said:
Tell me a reason for doing MT instead of baseline hitting other than the fact that it’s easier to do.
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Hello, is this thing on?

I already gave you multiple reasons in posts #22 and #26. Read, rinse, repeat.

It's not a matter of either or. They are not mutually exclusive. Many will derive some or most of the benefits I've already listed from a few minutes of MT prior to their BL warmup.
 
MT 5 mins start of a hitting session progressing back to base keeping the rally going. Encourage focus, concentration, timing, tempo and Rythmn. Warms up physical and mental. I see lots of pairs of hitters start at the base at 100mph (they wish) arming and mistiming the ball.
 
Tomaz suggests a takeback that is even more compact than the compact backswing I had suggested. There is considerable merit in his approach. Tho you don't necessarily need to perform all your MT as compact as this.

www.feeltennis.net

Technique Adjustment For Playing Mini Tennis With Feel | Feel Tennis

Playing mini tennis, meaning just behind the service line, is a great way to warm up your strokes, and your body overall. Playing at such short distance helps you develop feel for the ball, being able to hit it very accurately and generally just prepare your eyes and your mind to deal with a...
www.feeltennis.net www.feeltennis.net
 
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Curious said:
And when they start with MT first, it’s miraculously fixed??
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Perhaps there's something to be said just to be in the right frame of mind to try and fix it?

From my own observations at my club, I'd say that it is possibly the people more adept at hitting TS who are doing it and those who hit a flatter ball who aren't?
 
MoxMonkey said:
So let me say I like mini tennis. I think a decent amount of men when they start playing tennis think mini tennis is somewhat stupid, I sure did. As the months have went by I have come to like it alot, and think it helps alot.

My question is this.

Has anyone here ever played mini tennis further back? Like with both players standing a couple feet inside the baseline? I think it might help with rhythm. You could take full swings with a slower tempo.
Click to expand...
Sorry this thread seems to have devolved into a debate on the merits of MT, but to answer your question... yes. The idea is to have the ball land within the service box, but you don't have to stand on the service line as that's the 'baseline'. Eventually after a few minutes you start moving further back, but you could keep you the same goal to still hit within the service box. There are lots of different things you can do like only hit cross court, only slices, only sidespin. For me MT is a way to help me with my contact point/timing and brushing of the ball. Sometimes I get a little too 'heavy' as I call it with contact and lose some of the 'brush' which is requires more finesse and touch. I see that with a lot of players as well where they think bludgeoning the ball is the only way to hit it. MT helps me get more feel into my game and it's easier for me to quickly get that 'brush' or touch back with MT than from the baseline. You can use so much less effort to hit the ball, create topspin, etc... and we sometimes forget that.

I absolutely play better tennis (as do my opponents) if we do a quick 3-5 minutes of MT as part of our warmup.
 
Osaka does mini tennis + to answer OP you can see some of these examples already posted some players are just outside of the service box so if that works for you, go for it!

 
I can't believe we are debating the merits of mini tennis and also thinking that what a tennis pro does is at all relevant to an average rec player. They hit every day. Most of us rec players are lucky to get out 2-3 days a week.

Rec players have more muscle memory to develop, have less well developed feel and touch, have limited footwork and are less honed athletes. Most are years older than the pros. It's absolutely crucial they play short form tennis for a bit before full court tennis warmup.

My practice sessions always start with CC mini tennis since that replicates short angle shots you'd use in a real game while working on feel and footwork and compact stroke. Then I move into NML for a few hits then back to BL for full CC warmup practice. Then get to the net for some volley work both from mid service box and from service line, then OH's. Then a few serves either side and I'm good to go. A set of singles and a set of one on one doubles and that's a nice practice session.

Most unfocused players do a few slicey bunts from near the net then go back to the BL to hammer down the middle groundstrokes for the entirety of the warmup. They've warmed up but learned nothing of value.
 
MoxMonkey said:
Has anyone here ever played mini tennis further back? Like with both players standing a couple feet inside the baseline? I think it might help with rhythm. You could take full swings with a slower tempo.
Click to expand...

I think mini tennis is good for warm up for sure. Just helps loosen me up, get the strokes flowing and ball brush focus there. I've done inside the service line, at the service line, and a few feet behind the service line. Usually I start up and we work back. I don't spend a great deal of time practicing it, per se, but again it is great for like 5 minutes or so of warm up. I suppose it could be good for praciticing some short ball shots, but I have other set ups for that.

You see a lot of pros doing the same, and most college teams make it part of their ritual.
 
Curious said:
My coach also says it’s a waste of time.;)
You don’t play tennis from there, he added. Also added laughing ‘ ever seen Federer doing it?’
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it's a difference in philosophy for sure that's oft debated.
i know a coach (has coached atp players) that hates mini, which he'll do if someone asks... but will never initiate it on his own.
yet i know another coach (has been on tour) that starts every session with mini as mandatory ("if you can't hit mini, you can't hit/feel the ball properly" is something he always used to say)
i'm definitely in the pro mini camp, but since i've seen it debated by folks way above my pay grade in tennis skills/knowledge/etc... i've stopped trying to convince anyone, and just do what i think works for me...
 
Curious said:
Tell me a reason for doing MT instead of baseline hitting other than the fact that it’s easier to do.
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there was a mouratoglou & serena training vid recently (can't find it now though...) where he talks about doing the fundamentals (like mini tennis - although in the vid he was literally hand feeding short low, closeer to the net balls - something you might see in a beginner lesson)... but insisted it was a great way to warmup (joints in the wrist for example), and to get back to the feel/timing of the brush, before moving back toward the baseline.
 
nyta2 said:
there was a mouratoglou & serena training vid recently (can't find it now though...) where he talks about doing the fundamentals (like mini tennis - although in the vid he was literally hand feeding short low, closeer to the net balls - something you might see in a beginner lesson)... but insisted it was a great way to warmup (joints in the wrist for example), and to get back to the feel/timing of the brush, before moving back toward the baseline.
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found it:
 
I've seen a number of pros do hitting sessions at our Palm Desert facility during Indian Wells. The fact is, they do 15-20 minutes of non-hitting activities before they even strike a ball. They work footwork, arm exercises, shuttles etc. They are actually warmed up when they grab their racket.

Most rec players wander onto the court from their car without doing anything before they start swinging away. Those people need at least mini tennis to ease into the session. If you've spent 30 min in the gym prior to getting on the court, fine, head back to the baseline. But that's not most rec players.
 
There are a lot of things that people may look as a waste of time but in the end it depends on your purpose.
I have seen lots of sessions where players just rally from baseline to baseline for 50 minutes and then finish off with 10 minutes of serving for their hour session.
Reality is that tennis points are dominated by the serve plus the next few shots and equally the return and the next few shots, so to improve we should probably do more of that.
Short court rallying is fine for maybe a few minutes to warm up.
 
Typically mini-tennis or short court should be done standing somewhere around the midway point between service line and baseline. It's good as a warm-up if your body is not ready to swing fast. You should do it with your regular baseline groundstroke but using a slower swing. I think its not productive to do it one foot away from the service line because at that point you only have enough time and space to block the ball. Also standing inside the baseline slightly isn't a good idea either, it might make it harder to find your baseline shot range. You might be better off standing on top of the baseline. I think proper mini-tennis is good for beginners and novice players to learn how to spin the ball. Not everyone's strokes are compatible with mini-tennis though, that's one reason why some people don't like to do it, or are unable to do it.
 
Znak said:
My running theory is the people that don't like doing it don't know how to do it correctly or use it as an efficient warm up tool. (At least on the rec level).
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That is quite often the case. Many will do a lot of nearly useless bunting or dinking of the ball back and forth. Or others haven't learned to prepare early enough or learned to properly execute mini tennis. As a result, they find it to be a useless activity.
 
Slicerman said:
Typically mini-tennis or short court should be done standing somewhere around the midway point between service line and baseline. It's good as a warm-up if your body is not ready to swing fast. You should do it with your regular baseline groundstroke but using a slower swing. I think its not productive to do it one foot away from the service line because at that point you only have enough time and space to block the ball. Also standing inside the baseline slightly isn't a good idea either, it might make it harder to find your baseline shot range. You might be better off standing on top of the baseline. I think proper mini-tennis is good for beginners and novice players to learn how to spin the ball. Not everyone's strokes are compatible with mini-tennis though, that's one reason why some people don't like to do it, or are unable to do it.
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For me and many others I've hit with, that is actually the 2nd stage with mini tennis. The first stage, is a few minutes or so just behind the service boxes (or close to the service line). Full finish, often a WW finish, but a compact takeback -- such as the preparation demonstrated by Tomaz in the video I provided in an earlier post. Not unlike a prep one might use for a very deep shot, a half-volley (or a very fast serve).

After that, players can progress to the next step -- the location you suggested. A bit fuller takeback at this point, but not excessive. For any deep balls near your feet, the ultra compact takeback would be employed again. Moving back to take a deep shot with a full backswing should be avoided at this point in the MT warm-up.
 
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