Somewhat mini tennis.

Curious said:
Anyway I’ve always thought I need to warm up my movement and timing at the baseline. Then why shouldn’t I start doing that from the baseline? If I warm up with mini tennis, I need to warm up once again at baseline anyway.
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I don't mind standing a few feet beyond the service line and hitting slow ground strokes. No volleys. Strictly ground strokes.

But many 3.5 players will often camp out a few feet inside the service box and then hit mostly volleys, difficult half volleys :eek:, and relatively few ground strokes from that position.

Is that mini tennis?

If so, cannot think of a worse way to warm up.

First and foremost, I want to warm up with ground strokes. I am fine starting either from the baseline or closer in beyond the service box. But I do not want to be hitting volleys and half volleys at the start of the warm up.

The other problem is that even if they hit groundstrokes from inside the service box, they hit too fast -- cannot have a decent rally.
 
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Curious said:
What semantics?
They are clearly different things. I always arrive at the courts 15 minutes earlier and do my warm up without touching the racket yet.
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Then that's clearly different than what you're telling OP. You were saying just jump into it, whereas what you really mean to say is jump into it having had a proper warm-up — whether that be through plyo/stretching oooorr.... say... mini tennis??
 
Curious said:
If it was such a big thing as claimed by TTW crowd we would be seeing it much more often, right?
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I, for one, never claimed it was "such a big thing". I only claimed A) it wasn't pointless, as you stated; and B) it helped me.

My counter-claim was that, if it was pointless as you said, then Djokovic/Woz/Henin/Haas would probably not be doing it. I'm thinking there's a point, probably a very big one, to most everything they do.

I commented on your "slow/fat/unfit" thread that you didn't appear to be overweight but that you weren't moving optimally. MT could be part of the solution, as it's much easier than full-on rallying from the BL. However, if you disagree, then by all means do other things.
 
Znak said:
Then that's clearly different than what you're telling OP. You were saying just jump into it, whereas what you really mean to say is jump into it having had a proper warm-up — whether that be through plyo/stretching oooorr.... say... mini tennis??
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No, it’s my preference to warm up physically before hitting any balls. You know, jogging a little, then high knees, butt-kicks etc. Then go to the baseline and start hitting nice and slow groundstrokes, almost like moonballs to start with and speed it up gradually.
 
Curious said:
Yes, but done at the right spot! :)
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What I don't get is that your BL drill is helpful to you and MT is pointless but the only difference is about 9' [BL is 39' away from the net; halfway between BL & SL, from where MT is often done, is 30' from the net].

How can a mere 9' in this warmup make a 180 degree, black and white difference between helpful and pointless?
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
What I don't get is that your BL drill is helpful to you and MT is pointless but the only difference is about 9' [BL is 39' away from the net; halfway between BL & SL, from where MT is often done, is 30' from the net].

How can a mere 9' in this warmup make a 180 degree, black and white difference between helpful and pointless?
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Ok, here comes the truth.
I just posted my unproven, unfounded belief to stir up some discussion.:p
I guess it's more about a personal preference and that might be the reason why Djokovic does it but Federer doesn't. It's really hard to prove/confirm whether one loses or gains anything by doing it or not doing it. One of the reasons I first became against it is in my circle of tennis friends the tendency was to start it at the service line for few minutes and then go straight back to baseline, which I hated and kept telling them to do it gradually going back to baseline, but no one listened. Anyway with this sharp move from service line to baseline I was like ' what the hell, now I need to get used to the 'new' spot! ( the baseline)'. Yes, from service line straight back to baseline and all my timing and strokes feel weird, all of a sudden I have a huge court to hit through. Long story short, it's not that I can't do it ( can do a video if asked ), it just doesn't feel right for me.
 
Curious said:
Ok, here comes the truth.
I just posted my unproven, unfounded belief to stir up some discussion.:p
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Yeah, I got that impression: your statements were very binary and that's not your style. :)

One of the reasons I first became against it is in my circle of tennis friends the tendency was to start it at the service line for few minutes and then go straight back to baseline, which I hated and kept telling them to do it gradually going back to baseline, but no one listened.
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If you watched the Djokovic video, you'll see he did exactly what you're saying.

Anyway with this sharp move from service line to baseline I was like ' what the hell, now I need to get used to the 'new' spot! ( the baseline)'. Yes, from service line straight back to baseline and all my timing and strokes feel weird, all of a sudden I have a huge court to hit through. Long story short, it's not that I can't do it ( can do a video if asked ), it just doesn't feel right for me.
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By extension, do you feel out of sorts during a match when there is a sudden change [ie let cord, mis-hit, bad bounce, etc; all of which are way more jarring than moving from SL to BL]?
 
Znak said:
My running theory is the people that don't like doing it don't know how to do it correctly or use it as an efficient warm up tool. (At least on the rec level).
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i'd say that's the case for like 90% folks i meet, but i have run into very very good players that can do it, but think it's stupid.
i'm not gonna make a dent changing their mind after they just double bagelled me :P
 
@Znak
nyta2 said:
i'd say that's the case for like 90% folks i meet, but i have run into very very good players that can do it, but think it's stupid.
i'm not gonna make a dent changing their mind after they just double bagelled me :p
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Do these very very good players really believe it is stoopid or is it just something they, personally, don't have a lot of use for? They have impeccable, unwavering hand-eye, never suffer from brain fog or a lack of mental focus, etc?

Their reflexes / reaction time is always at its peak? I know my RT varies throughout the course of the day. I've always had a very good visual RT, but it almost always is noticeably slower very late at night and in the morning. While some ppl drag in the afternoon or evening, I'm normally at my peak during those hours. When I'm not at my peak, MT doesn't completely make up for it but it certainly helps a fair amount.

Are they always ON, or perhaps they have other ways to cope with the issues mentioned here and elsewhere in the thread?

This reminds me of the PhD instructor who has a hard time relating to or teaching underclassmen in college because there are so far removed from that level. So, they have teaching aids who deal with that mundane stuff

Have seen some high level coaches like that as well. Some have an incredibly hard time with novice students because they have forgotten what it's like to be at that level and they can't relate to it. So it might be with the very very good players who see no value in MT and think it's dumb.
 
Curious said:
One of the reasons I first became against it is in my circle of tennis friends the tendency was to start it at the service line for few minutes and then go straight back to baseline, which I hated and kept telling them to do it gradually going back to baseline, but no one listened. Anyway with this sharp move from service line to baseline I was like ' what the hell, now I need to get used to the 'new' spot!
Click to expand...

You know nothing stops you from gradually going back to the service line. Your opponent can hit from wherever he likes. They are irrelevant to how you want to warm up and will likely adapt to your position on the court. Stand at the service line for a few strokes, stand in NML for a few strokes, stand at the BL for a few then go back behind the BL. Hit balls that bounce before your opponent so he doesn't have to volley, no matter his position. Voila.

There is no proper position in tennis and you will hit from every spot on the court if you play enough.
 
Dartagnan64 said:
You know nothing stops you from gradually going back to the service line. Your opponent can hit from wherever he likes. They are irrelevant to how you want to warm up and will likely adapt to your position on the court. Stand at the service line for a few strokes, stand in NML for a few strokes, stand at the BL for a few then go back behind the BL. Hit balls that bounce before your opponent so he doesn't have to volley, no matter his position. Voila.

There is no proper position in tennis and you will hit from every spot on the court if you play enough.
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No, the opponent or hitting partner is not completely irrelevant to how you warm up. There are a couple of people that I've warmed up with, short court, that make MT a kind of torture.

Right out of the gate, they are hitting everything right at your feet with fast low-skidding shots. Either flat or with some under spin at a very low trajectory. Never get a good rhythm or a good mental warm-up with these players. .

Have asked them to slow it down, hit with TS or not hit it at my feet when we first start. But they seem to have a hard time breaking out of their habit. If I move back into NML, they still hit the ball at my feet with low, skidding shots.

Sometimes, after getting frustrated with this no-warm-up warm up, I'll move up to the net after a couple of minutes and volley their shots back rather than letting them hit in my feet. It's not ideal for my own needs but I'm actually a pretty decent volleyer -- so I get some benefit out of it.
 
Have found, at times, that MT can have a calming, de-stressing quality. (But not with the two guys I mentioned in the post above). It can be a away to minimize stress or eliminate potential jitters. It also helps me to make sure that I'm breathing naturally and using the gaze / tracking technique I prefer.

It can help to establish a rhythm and to bring one into THE NOW. It can be very much like a meditation or a moving meditation like tai chi.
 
Dartagnan64 said:
You know nothing stops you from gradually going back to the service line. Your opponent can hit from wherever he likes. They are irrelevant to how you want to warm up and will likely adapt to your position on the court. Stand at the service line for a few strokes, stand in NML for a few strokes, stand at the BL for a few then go back behind the BL. Hit balls that bounce before your opponent so he doesn't have to volley, no matter his position. Voila.

There is no proper position in tennis and you will hit from every spot on the court if you play enough.
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You really think I didn’t try that?
They keep hitting the balls short as if you have to stay at the service line until we’re all ready to go back to BL!!
 
I do it all the time, 5 minutes of mini, 5 minutes midway between service line and baseline, 5 minutes from baseline but easy 3/4 swings then ramp it up...
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
No, the opponent or hitting partner is not completely irrelevant to how you warm up. There are a couple of people that I've warmed up with, short court, that make MT a kind of torture.

Right out of the gate, they are hitting everything right at your feet with fast low-skidding shots. Either flat or with some under spin at a very low trajectory. Never get a good rhythm or a good mental warm-up with these players. .
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Well that's not really the point I was trying to make. I just find that most people will hit to you no matter where you stand so you can warm up from any spot in general. Yes there are folks that do stupid things but that wasn't the group I was getting at. I'm talking about the guys that play MT and BL tennis and nothing in between. They can stand in those spots and still hit to you if you are in NML. It doesn't have to always play out as short to short and long to long.
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
Interesting: I've made a similar observation, calling it "meditation in motion".
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Yeah, tai chi certainly has that aspect to it. Had learned it some 30+ years ago. Need to back into it as well as a sitting meditation on a regular basis. Had learned TM back in the 70s but don't do it as often as I did that then.

Have performed some other activities as a sort of moving meditation. Have done this with tennis serving practice as well as a couple of other drills where I can establish a rhythm. Got the idea from an episode of the old Kung Fu TV series of the early 1970s

 
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SystemicAnomaly said:
@Znak

Do these very very good players really believe it is stoopid or is it just something they, personally, don't have a lot of use for? They have impeccable, unwavering hand-eye, never suffer from brain fog or a lack of mental focus, etc?

Their reflexes / reaction time is always at its peak? I know my RT varies throughout the course of the day. I've always had a very good visual RT, but it almost always is noticeably slower very late at night and in the morning. While some ppl drag in the afternoon or evening, I'm normally at my peak during those hours. When I'm not at my peak, MT doesn't completely make up for it but it certainly helps a fair amount.

Are they always ON, or perhaps they have other ways to cope with the issues mentioned here and elsewhere in the thread?

This reminds me of the PhD instructor who has a hard time relating to or teaching underclassmen in college because there are so far removed from that level. So, they have teaching aids who deal with that mundane stuff

Have seen some high level coaches like that as well. Some have an incredibly hard time with novice students because they have forgotten what it's like to be at that level and they can't relate to it. So it might be with the very very good players who see no value in MT and think it's dumb.
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i don't know, i never pressed the conversation, as i'm usually just to be grateful to be hitting with folks at their level... and it'd be weird having a conversation about not liking mini, when we're warming up from the baseline :P

the typical argument i've heard is that it's not a realistic shot, and if the goal is just joint/movement/timing warmup, that can all be done at the baseline. they are actually big fans of warming up with a single ball (to them, it's inexcusable for two 4.5+ to ever miss during a 60% co-op warmup - including the baseline-2-volleyer warmups)... maybe they feel there's more latitude for mistakes, and more opportunities to warmup variety, so mini tennis can be a waste of time (imagine two 3.0's doing mini).

coping with issues... there's obviously many ways to skin a cat... they just don't like the mini tennis tool. they are great players themselves, and their students are excellent as well - so mini does not appear to be a critical path to success :P
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
No, the opponent or hitting partner is not completely irrelevant to how you warm up. There are a couple of people that I've warmed up with, short court, that make MT a kind of torture.

Right out of the gate, they are hitting everything right at your feet with fast low-skidding shots. Either flat or with some under spin at a very low trajectory. Never get a good rhythm or a good mental warm-up with these players. .

Have asked them to slow it down, hit with TS or not hit it at my feet when we first start. But they seem to have a hard time breaking out of their habit. If I move back into NML, they still hit the ball at my feet with low, skidding shots.

Sometimes, after getting frustrated with this no-warm-up warm up, I'll move up to the net after a couple of minutes and volley their shots back rather than letting them hit in my feet. It's not ideal for my own needs but I'm actually a pretty decent volleyer -- so I get some benefit out of it.
Click to expand...
i'm picturing a guy i play with in league that does exactly that,... for whatever reason, he goes out of his way to hit "deep" slice in mini-tennis (i think it's a psyche job to show me that i can't handle his awesome slice).. he has terrible topspin strokes (he's an s&v'er with great hands and slice approach) if that gives you any insights into his playstyle

when i come across folks like this, i don't bother asking them to slow down or change their stroke,... i just say "great shot" and move back to baseline. in the slicer example, i'll just loop back high moonballs lobs - the guy i'm referring to above can't handle that well, and will just hit droppers - so the warmup becomes pointless, and i'll come up to net and take volleys

so sounds like we have similar approaches to these kinds of people :P
 
nyta2 said:
i don't know, i never pressed the conversation, as i'm usually just to be grateful to be hitting with folks at their level... and it'd be weird having a conversation about not liking mini, when we're warming up from the baseline :p

the typical argument i've heard is that it's not a realistic shot, and if the goal is just joint/movement/timing warmup, that can all be done at the baseline. they are actually big fans of warming up with a single ball (to them, it's inexcusable for two 4.5+ to ever miss during a 60% co-op warmup - including the baseline-2-volleyer warmups)... maybe they feel there's more latitude for mistakes, and more opportunities to warmup variety, so mini tennis can be a waste of time (imagine two 3.0's doing mini).

coping with issues... there's obviously many ways to skin a cat... they just don't like the mini tennis tool. they are great players themselves, and their students are excellent as well - so mini does not appear to be a critical path to success :p
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Not warming up with just one of the game balls, I trust. Doing so would cause one ball in the set have more wear and tear on it than the others.

MT really ain't so much for warming up a particular stroke but for a warming up visual tracking, hand-eye, etc
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
Not warming up with just one of the game balls, I trust. Doing so would cause one ball in the set have more wear and tear on it than the others.
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with this crew, we're *always* playing with 2 new cans of premium balls...
MT really ain't so much for warming up a particular stroke but for a warming up visual tracking, hand-eye, etc
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you're preaching the choir,... but preach on!! :)
 
  • The people I've met that don't like mini-tennis are people that suck at it. They either can't hit the ball short with control, or they cheat by chipping/bunting the ball.
  • Mini-tennis tends to expose flaws in your groundstrokes and doing it correctly is harder than it looks. I can do mini-tennis well with my forehand, but struggle on my backhand side. With my backhand mini-tennis is actually more difficult than full shots from the baseline. It all is related to my ability to control spin and trajectory on the backhand, which are things I'm working on.
  • Mini-tennis doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing thing and can naturally transition into full shots as you warm up. Start close and once you find a good rhythm, take a step back, etc. etc. Eventually you will be at the baseline hitting full shots.
  • I won't even say that I like mini-tennis. It's frustrating. But I appreciate the challenge and believe that improvements in mini-tennis will translate to improvements at full speed.
 
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nyta2 said:
i'm picturing a guy i play with in league that does exactly that,... for whatever reason, he goes out of his way to hit "deep" slice in mini-tennis (i think it's a psyche job to show me that i can't handle his awesome slice).. he has terrible topspin strokes (he's an s&v'er with great hands and slice approach) if that gives you any insights into his playstyle

when i come across folks like this, i don't bother asking them to slow down or change their stroke,... i just say "great shot" and move back to baseline. in the slicer example, i'll just loop back high moonballs lobs - the guy i'm referring to above can't handle that well, and will just hit droppers - so the warmup becomes pointless, and i'll come up to net and take volleys

so sounds like we have similar approaches to these kinds of people :p
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When I get a guy that insists on hitting mini-tennis shots too deep, I take a step forward and turn it into a volley-volley warmup.
 
everyone is different. I personally prefer to hit mini tennis but I am also to start from the baseline immediately. I found most of the time, self claim 3.0/3.5 are usually the ones who don't want to do mini tennis or not sure what to do with mini tennis. Where as most others who are a bit higher like 4.5 acknowledge it and can hit for a bit and we even try some mini game at the service line just for fun, sometimes all slices, all volley all mini topspin shots, etc.
 
nyta2 said:
it's a difference in philosophy for sure that's oft debated.
i know a coach (has coached atp players) that hates mini, which he'll do if someone asks... but will never initiate it on his own.
yet i know another coach (has been on tour) that starts every session with mini as mandatory ("if you can't hit mini, you can't hit/feel the ball properly" is something he always used to say)
i'm definitely in the pro mini camp, but since i've seen it debated by folks way above my pay grade in tennis skills/knowledge/etc... i've stopped trying to convince anyone, and just do what i think works for me...
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tumblr_lm12j1yS5d1qgszk4.gif
 
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For me, it's definitely a 'you get out of it what you put into it' drill. I usually have a a couple things I focus on. Sometimes I focus on footwork and preparation, other times I'll be focused on how the incoming ball bounces based on it's spin and angle of descent (I think this helps me in particular with hitting a ball with purpose on the rise). I usually try to stay fluid, no jerky/snappy movements. Sometimes I practice underspin, usually I focus on topspin, or whatever else feels like it could help.

Mini tennis is going to be played at 8:00am when people show up early to hit. So I make the most of it. Initially I just wanted to get it over with, but I am glad I don't feel that way anymore. I'm certain I've progressed quicker because of it, although how much I'm not sure.
 
A player’s skill, timing and footwork is set on the drive to the court. 8-B

Swing speed control from the baseline is something different than mini brushing. Baseline swing speed control can win you a lot of singles matches ... mini brushing not so much.

Mini brushing is a narrow topspin technique measuring device (not a measurement that matters ... we don’t play matches from there).

@Curious ... bro ... how did I do?8-B
 
ByeByePoly said:
A player’s skill, timing and footwork is set on the drive to the court. 8-B

Swing speed control from the baseline is something different than mini brushing. Baseline swing speed control can win you a lot of singles matches ... mini brushing not so much.

Mini brushing is a narrow topspin technique measuring device (not a measurement that matters ... we don’t play matches from there).

@Curious ... bro ... how did I do?8-B
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My man!:)
 
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