Southern Sectionals

tennis_tater

Semi-Pro
Very common situation - a player "qualifies" on
A Fall team as a 4.0 - year end ratings bump
Them up to a 4.5 rating. However - because they
Qualified when they were 4.0 they can
Play as 4.0
So the Bama team at sectionals won a league in fall of 2010 and some players got bumped at the year end ratings in November? I saw they had a number of 4.5's and just figured they had some sort of early start ratings.
 

JLyon

Hall of Fame
So the Bama team at sectionals won a league in fall of 2010 and some players got bumped at the year end ratings in November? I saw they had a number of 4.5's and just figured they had some sort of early start ratings.
GA is the same way, noticed for instance their 5.0 Team that won last year had two 5.5 players.
 

tennis_tater

Semi-Pro
Bama is looking very good in the standings and are a very good team. But its not like they are blowing out the competition. And it hasnt "gotten ugly" with anyone in their division, I'm not sure why one would expect that to happen in the finals. They got 3 third set wins over Louisiana (with 4 matches going to 3 rd sets) and 2 third set wins against Kentucky. A few points here and there, they could have two losses. They even squeaked by Arkansas 3-2. Like I said, they are a very good team and it wouldn't surprise me if they won the tournament. But I'm sure whoever comes out of the other side will be a very good team as well and will push bama as the other teams have.
Looks like Bama pulled out 2 more 3rd set victories this afternoon to take a 4-1 team win over Mississippi to advance to the finals out of Division 1 group play. Bama has definitely been clutch in the 3rd set TB the entire tournament. Sets up what appears to be a good final with Georgia, who I guess "upset" the Memphis team (based upon Memphis being dubbed a favorite).
 
tennis tater i was quoting another guy about kentucky and tennesse working the system not you..


Looks like another year and no title for kentucky and tennessee who is ruining USTA tennis by "working the system"

they may be working it just not as good as the other 10 teams over the last 9 years
 

tennis_tater

Semi-Pro
tennis tater i was quoting another guy about kentucky and tennesse working the system not you..


Looks like another year and no title for kentucky and tennessee who is ruining USTA tennis by "working the system"

they may be working it just not as good as the other 10 teams over the last 9 years
Looks like Georgia ended up beating Alabama in the finals, 4-1, to win the men's 4.0.

As far as teams "working the system," again, seeing the players play in 4.0 this past weekend, I didn't really feel like there were under-rated players playing. However, I do think that the teams from Bama, and Georgia as well, may have a slight advantage over some of the other teams as both teams had a number of guys who are computer rated 4.5's following the Nov. 2010 year end ratings. However, b/c both Bama and Georgia do some sort of "early start" league's in the Fall, they are able to sneak some 4.5 guys into the championship levels. I'm not sure why Bama (or Georgia) needs to do some sort of early start league in the fall since the neither state has much of a winter. It looks like Bama even has a spring league. If the other states in the Southern section don't get the benefit of having 4.5's, Bama, and maybe Georgia, and whoever else does the early start, should send the teams that win the spring leagues who are playng under the current ratings. Looking at the results from both the first and second session, it looks like Alabama teams, as a whole, did extremely well....maybe having players a .5 level up gave them the slight advantage in some of these levels:

M 2.5 - Bama champion
M 3.0 - Bama champion
M 3.5 - Bama runner-up
M 4.0 - Bama runner-up
W 3.0 - Bama runner-up
W 4.0 - Bama champion
 

HitItHarder

Semi-Pro
Looks like Georgia ended up beating Alabama in the finals, 4-1, to win the men's 4.0.

As far as teams "working the system," again, seeing the players play in 4.0 this past weekend, I didn't really feel like there were under-rated players playing. However, I do think that the teams from Bama, and Georgia as well, may have a slight advantage over some of the other teams as both teams had a number of guys who are computer rated 4.5's following the Nov. 2010 year end ratings. However, b/c both Bama and Georgia do some sort of "early start" league's in the Fall, they are able to sneak some 4.5 guys into the championship levels. I'm not sure why Bama (or Georgia) needs to do some sort of early start league in the fall since the neither state has much of a winter. It looks like Bama even has a spring league. If the other states in the Southern section don't get the benefit of having 4.5's, Bama, and maybe Georgia, and whoever else does the early start, should send the teams that win the spring leagues who are playng under the current ratings. Looking at the results from both the first and second session, it looks like Alabama teams, as a whole, did extremely well....maybe having players a .5 level up gave them the slight advantage in some of these levels:

M 2.5 - Bama champion
M 3.0 - Bama champion
M 3.5 - Bama runner-up
M 4.0 - Bama runner-up
W 3.0 - Bama runner-up
W 4.0 - Bama champion
The Bama M 3.0 team was in our group at Sectionals. Honestly, they were just a solid team on all courts. All of their players would be what I consider competitive 3.5 level players or better, based on skill level. But only one of them has an early start rating of 3.5. Of course, there were around 3 self rated players (3.0 or lower) on the team that were awful good. But that is part of the game, especially when you get to the sectional level. I would say talent-wise, these guys were the best we played all year. They are a good team. Hope they do well at Nationals.

To compair, our team at sectionals were all computer rated 3.0s, and most of us have been playing together around three years. How the computer has left us all as 3.0s, I'll never know. We all are competitive in 3.5 matchs. We regualrly practice with with 4.0s without a real problem, at least in doubles and the level of our team as a whole is far above 3.0.

So I am not sure the early start leagues had much to do with the Alabama 3.0 M team win. But it is interesting that Alabama did so well overall across the NTRP level. Probably a coincidence, at least in our case, as they were (in my opinion) the best team on our level at Sectionals.
 

coach k

New User
Arkansas

Arkansas evens 3.0, 4.0, 5.0 finished early this year (two weeks ago). The odd levels finish tomorrow.
 

SmackDown

New User
Alabama 4.0 & 4.5

Alabama 4.0 & 4.5 teams out of Huntsville
from the same club will be rolling through
State once again next weekend.
Next stop Sectionals in Mobile!
 

tennis_tater

Semi-Pro
I guess that 4.0 team from Huntsville is basically the same team, or those who didn't get bumped, from the team that got to the finals last year.

Anyone know what states got the 4.0 and 4.5 WC?
 

tennis_tater

Semi-Pro
Alabama 4.0 & 4.5 teams out of Huntsville
from the same club will be rolling through
State once again next weekend.
Next stop Sectionals in Mobile!
Seems like these teams from Huntsville are there every year.

Any predictions/ thoughts on favorites? I'm assuming the Huntsville 4.0 team has to be the favorite with some on that team going to nationals 2 years ago and then finals of sectionals last year.

Anyone going to be in mobile the next week?
 

tennis_tater

Semi-Pro
Looks like Alabama dominted the first week on the Men's side in Mobile this week winning Men's 3.0 and 3.5. Not sure how good their 4.5 team is, but I'm sure Men's 4.0 from Alabama will likely be the favorite to win that division as well.
 

goherd27

Rookie
I was there over the weekend on a business trip and ended up watching a friend's team play. It was interesting to see the variation in the 3.0 and 3.5 level from what it is locally. My friend's team was a 3.0 men's team. They played one match where the other "3.0" player's serve nearly knocked the racquet out of one guys hand multiple times. I bet there is a lot of self rating going on.

Also got to see a great fight over a line call in a women's 3.5 match. Classic goodness.

Seemed like a fun experience for most teams there.
 

SmackDown

New User
Alabama 4.0 men win Southern Sectionals

Alabama 4.0 men from Huntsville, AL
beat Tennessee in the finals 3-2.
The deciding court came down to #1 singles
with AL winning 10-8 in the 3rd set tiebreaker.

Alabama men won 2.5, 3.0, 3.5, & 4.0
Southern Sectional championships this
year. That is an amazing statistic.
 
Alabama 4.0 men from Huntsville, AL
beat Tennessee in the finals 3-2.
The deciding court came down to #1 singles
with AL winning 10-8 in the 3rd set tiebreaker.

Alabama men won 2.5, 3.0, 3.5, & 4.0
Southern Sectional championships this
year. That is an amazing statistic.
Wow! Looks like Alabama may have a chance to win its 2nd National 4.0 title in 3 years. There must be some good players over in Huntsville for them to be so competitive every year.
 

storypeddler

Semi-Pro

tennis_tater

Semi-Pro
Ummm...based on the Southern Tennis Association website, the 2013 Sectional Championships for Men & Women 3.0, 4.0, and 5.0 teams are being held in Lexington SC in July, not in Mobile. That should be an interesting change.

http://www.southern.usta.com/Adults/leagues/section_championships_sites/
Yes, and 4.5 will be held in Auburn, Al. the same weekend. With the new over 40 league, looks like sectionals for the various age/levels will be spread out all over the south.

Haven't been to columbia, but the facilities there look like they are going to be nicer than the Mobile Tennis Center.
 

JLyon

Hall of Fame
:wink:
It's not rocket science to get to Sectionals at 5.0 or 5.5. Just gotta put a team together sometimes.
yup, that is how I went a few years back. Sad 5.0 does not have more teams, maybe USTA will get a clue and try to make 5.0+ better and get more participants
 

ace18

Professional
in my opinion, i would guess that 25% of the guys that play in my 4.5 league should be playing 5.0. If they did things right, that would create a bigger 5.0 base to pull from. You have a bunch of 4.0 guys that got bumped to 4.5 and stopped playing because they can't compete with guys that should be moved up. How you do it, I don't know, but you always have a few teams in 4.5 that win all the time because they have the 5.0s on their team and you have the true 4.5 players losing most matches because they can't beat the 5.0s. USTA is a mess.
 

floydcouncil

Professional
in my opinion, i would guess that 25% of the guys that play in my 4.5 league should be playing 5.0. If they did things right, that would create a bigger 5.0 base to pull from. You have a bunch of 4.0 guys that got bumped to 4.5 and stopped playing because they can't compete with guys that should be moved up. How you do it, I don't know, but you always have a few teams in 4.5 that win all the time because they have the 5.0s on their team and you have the true 4.5 players losing most matches because they can't beat the 5.0s. USTA is a mess.
USTA isn't a mess. They can't police everyone. The current system with NTRP is fine. Some people choose to abuse the rating system. That will never stop. It's simple as that.

More players would choose to win at a lower level rather than losing at a higher level. That's obvious, no?

Few things I see consistently:

1. Handful of strong 4.5 players gets bumped to 5.0. Their first reaction is to play 5.0, get pummeled to get their rating down so they can play (and dominate) 4.5 again. The cycle continues.... Rarely do I meet 4.5 guys who gets bumped up to 5.0 and embrace their new level and work even harder to maintain their new level.

2. Some idiot captain convinces some (current or former) college level player to self-rate themselves to a 4.5 so they would have a good season. These players and captains get caught since someone will always file a grievance.

3. As someone mentioned above, there are those teams with 5.0 guys disguised as 4.5 players (non self rate)... there's not much you can do, but to do your best against them. That means recruit better, find better doubles paring, etc.
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
in my opinion, i would guess that 25% of the guys that play in my 4.5 league should be playing 5.0. If they did things right, that would create a bigger 5.0 base to pull from. You have a bunch of 4.0 guys that got bumped to 4.5 and stopped playing because they can't compete with guys that should be moved up. How you do it, I don't know, but you always have a few teams in 4.5 that win all the time because they have the 5.0s on their team and you have the true 4.5 players losing most matches because they can't beat the 5.0s. USTA is a mess.
How is this really all that different from what happens at any level? You have 3.5s that get bumped up to 4.0 that lose most of their matches to the better 4.0s. You have 3.0s that get bumped up to 3.5 and lose most of their matches to the better 3.5s. Somewhat by definition, given that the range is a full 0.5 rating points, the top players in a level will routinely beat the lower players at the same level.

Now, I will grant that it is perhaps a little worse at 4.5 in the 40 & over division due to it being a plus league. The 5.0s may be forced to play 4.5s, sometimes even lower rated 4.5s that are sent out as sacrificial lambs, and as a result their ratings go down and they get bumped down to 4.5. I wrote about how the USTA is inadvertently bumping players down last year and you may be seeing the effects of this.

But back to my original point, the issue may be more that the 4.0s that get bumped up to 4.5 expect to keep winning at the same clip they did at 4.0, and that simply isn't going to happen given how the levels are set up.

--
NTRP Ratings FAQ
 

mikeler

Moderator
in my opinion, i would guess that 25% of the guys that play in my 4.5 league should be playing 5.0. If they did things right, that would create a bigger 5.0 base to pull from. You have a bunch of 4.0 guys that got bumped to 4.5 and stopped playing because they can't compete with guys that should be moved up. How you do it, I don't know, but you always have a few teams in 4.5 that win all the time because they have the 5.0s on their team and you have the true 4.5 players losing most matches because they can't beat the 5.0s. USTA is a mess.
Another problem you have with lack of matches is also lack of movement in ratings. With so few matches, the USTA algorithm does not have a chance to do many bump ups or bump downs unless you have a lopsided match result.
 

asimple

Semi-Pro
in my opinion, i would guess that 25% of the guys that play in my 4.5 league should be playing 5.0. If they did things right, that would create a bigger 5.0 base to pull from. You have a bunch of 4.0 guys that got bumped to 4.5 and stopped playing because they can't compete with guys that should be moved up. How you do it, I don't know, but you always have a few teams in 4.5 that win all the time because they have the 5.0s on their team and you have the true 4.5 players losing most matches because they can't beat the 5.0s. USTA is a mess.
I don't think there is any true 4.5 player. It is an arbitrary level setup to make things competitive but it seems that everyone has their own view of appropriate levels based on their own ability.

I do agree with you though. I think they should lower the 5.0 level to include 25% of the 4.5s and then create a 5 line 5.0+ league which allows 2 players 5.5 and above to play. The issue is that given the limited amount of 5.0 teams and the plus aspect being a low level 5.0 (especially singles player) is pretty much the worst place to be.
 

JLyon

Hall of Fame
2. Some idiot captain convinces some (current or former) college level player to self-rate themselves to a 4.5 so they would have a good season. These players and captains get caught since someone will always file a grievance.
Not quite as bad but Memphis team has a player Self-rated 5.0 who was on a Top 25 D1 team last fall, did not play in spring, but would have been #6 or so.
Should be 5.5 or 6.0 with record which included a win over #1 player at Baylor last Fall.
 

beernutz

Hall of Fame
in my opinion, i would guess that 25% of the guys that play in my 4.5 league should be playing 5.0. If they did things right, that would create a bigger 5.0 base to pull from. You have a bunch of 4.0 guys that got bumped to 4.5 and stopped playing because they can't compete with guys that should be moved up. How you do it, I don't know, but you always have a few teams in 4.5 that win all the time because they have the 5.0s on their team and you have the true 4.5 players losing most matches because they can't beat the 5.0s. USTA is a mess.
If USTA is a mess it is because of the actions of the players and not the algorithm IMO. Take the 4.0 guys in your example who got bumped to 4.5 and then quit playing. They were perfectly happy to continually kick butt at 4.0 and win 90% of their matches but when they get bumped so that presumably they would face better competition--and this is what we all want out of league right?--rather than taking their lumps and trying to improve enough to be competitive they quit.

It is all about ego with some players. The idiots who intentionally self-rate low or intentionally massage their ratings by tanking matches and the captains who condone or promote such behavior are the reason USTA has problems.

However I don't think it is a mess, it is just a slightly flawed system which needs a bit of tweaking, not a major overhaul.
 
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mikeler

Moderator
I don't think there is any true 4.5 player. It is an arbitrary level setup to make things competitive but it seems that everyone has their own view of appropriate levels based on their own ability.

I do agree with you though. I think they should lower the 5.0 level to include 25% of the 4.5s and then create a 5 line 5.0+ league which allows 2 players 5.5 and above to play. The issue is that given the limited amount of 5.0 teams and the plus aspect being a low level 5.0 (especially singles player) is pretty much the worst place to be.
They already allow 25% of the 5.0 team to be 4.5 level players and you can have a 5.5 play at line 1 singles or line 1 doubles. Adding a 2nd 5.5 is still going to leave you looking for another 2 players to complete all 5 lines (assuming 2 singles, 3 doubles).
 

anubis

Hall of Fame
They already allow 25% of the 5.0 team to be 4.5 level players and you can have a 5.5 play at line 1 singles or line 1 doubles. Adding a 2nd 5.5 is still going to leave you looking for another 2 players to complete all 5 lines (assuming 2 singles, 3 doubles).
Wow, so a typical 5.0 level team is a mixed bag of a mess of NTRP! You walk up to you any of your matches, and you have no idea who you'll face. You could be a 5.0 and face a 4.5 and have an easy match. A 5.0 and a tough one. Get bageled by a 5.5. Total mind job.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
There just aren't that many players at that level.
And the ones who are are playing for a college or something like that where they don't need a USTA team to play for.

in my opinion, i would guess that 25% of the guys that play in my 4.5 league should be playing 5.0. If they did things right, that would create a bigger 5.0 base to pull from. You have a bunch of 4.0 guys that got bumped to 4.5 and stopped playing because they can't compete with guys that should be moved up. How you do it, I don't know, but you always have a few teams in 4.5 that win all the time because they have the 5.0s on their team and you have the true 4.5 players losing most matches because they can't beat the 5.0s. USTA is a mess.
I've already decided that I'm appealing up (to 4.5) after this year even if I don't get bumped by the computer. I need a clean break from 4.0. I don't care if I get pummeled regularly. Better competition...
 

tennis_tater

Semi-Pro
And the ones who are are playing for a college or something like that where they don't need a USTA team to play for.



I've already decided that I'm appealing up (to 4.5) after this year even if I don't get bumped by the computer. I need a clean break from 4.0. I don't care if I get pummeled regularly. Better competition...
Why do you have to appeal up? Why not just play up and skip 4.0 all together?
 

mikeler

Moderator
Wow, so a typical 5.0 level team is a mixed bag of a mess of NTRP! You walk up to you any of your matches, and you have no idea who you'll face. You could be a 5.0 and face a 4.5 and have an easy match. A 5.0 and a tough one. Get bageled by a 5.5. Total mind job.
You got it. You could play a 4.5, 5.0, 5.5 or a combination of any two.

One of the guys I played in singles self rated as a 5.5 and then appealed down. So at first, I thought the team was trying to play both their 5.5s during the same match which is not allowed.


Why do you have to appeal up? Why not just play up and skip 4.0 all together?
I'd play up. Give yourself the chance to play both.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
Why do you have to appeal up? Why not just play up and skip 4.0 all together?
I don't want to feel obligated to run a 4.0 team again or have people feel like I'm abandoning my 4.0 team. I don't want to be asked to play 4.0 for anyone else's team. I want a clean break and I'm done with it. I feel like I've done everything I can in 4.0, and it's time to move on and not look back.
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
I don't want to feel obligated to run a 4.0 team again or have people feel like I'm abandoning my 4.0 team. I don't want to be asked to play 4.0 for anyone else's team. I want a clean break and I'm done with it. I feel like I've done everything I can in 4.0, and it's time to move on and not look back.
Oh, unless you do something really stupid in your remaining matches, you will be bumped up. If you had been self-rated this year, you'd be a prime candidate to be DQ'd and promoted up.

--
NTRP Ratings FAQ
 

floydcouncil

Professional
If USTA is a mess it is because of the actions of the players and not the algorithm IMO. Take the 4.0 guys in your example who got bumped to 4.5 and then quit playing. They were perfectly happy to continually kick butt at 4.0 and win 90% of their matches but when they get bumped so that presumably they would face better competition--and this is what we all want out of league right?--rather than taking their lumps and trying to improve enough to be competitive they quit.

It is all about ego with some players. The idiots who intentionally self-rate low or intentionally massage their ratings by tanking matches and the captains who condone or promote such behavior are the reason USTA has problems.

However I don't think it is a mess, it is just a slightly flawed system which needs a bit of tweaking, not a major overhaul.
Well said...
 

JLyon

Hall of Fame
judging by Texas ESR's lots of 4.5's, established year to year 4.5's, were bumped to 5.0, would be nice if USTA would hold them there.
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
judging by Texas ESR's lots of 4.5's, established year to year 4.5's, were bumped to 5.0, would be nice if USTA would hold them there.
The tradition of throwing matches in their Fall league will now commence.
 

205bacdoc

New User
Read where the 3.5 men and women both won sectionals from Alabama. Apparently, one of the guys from the 3.5 left after working late Saturday night to drive over on less than 2 hours sleep. He played in the finals and won the clincher 10-8 in the 3rd for a 3-2 team win. Good thing he won or that would have been a brutal trip back.
 
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