Sports Illustrated's Jon Wertheim on Foreign College Tennis Players

mostly the best 10s and 12s kids...are just good, cause they are bigger, faster as other kids....when they grow up this differences turn their side..and the real talented ones will win....you cannot allways transfer the results from younger ages to the later ones...
 
I think 12 year old players dropping out of tennis does not have much to do with the topic of foreign players, but I think one of the reason's top players at that age drop out is the burn-out factor. Most kids that age that are ranked high are a product of some type of tennis academy training and are probably spending many hours on the court in an academy setting. I agree that being good then does not mean you will be the best in three of four years, but a lot of these kids get sick of tennis. I know one or two kids that were great at 12, and you could not get them to hit a tennis ball at 17 if you put a gun to their head. Any sport in which kids are expected to train so hard at an early age will be subject to this happening some.
 
These comments are whoppers.

More great points many of which I've made myself over the years on this topic. I know for a fact there are more roster spots available (at least for boys) then players available or willing to fill them.

I very much doubt this for a fact.

As far as I'm concerned every parent of a HS player I've encountered that made the argument against international players has one or two things in common.

EVERY parent's post (that I have read) makes a comment about limiting the number, they are not AGAINST internationals. No one on any board or in any thread has ever suggested a ban. Why state provocative things that are clearly not accurate?

Either or both, their kid wants to go to a major BCS type school that typically only has elite players on the roster, and their child is not an elite player.
This is clearly not correct. The "elite" players top 75 kids in the country are split between Elite Academic (Ivy's & their equivalents such as Stanford, Duke, Northwestern etc.) & BCS type schools. The next level (4 star) kids are typically interested in Ivy or baby Ivys or smaller D1s (or high quality D3s).

I speak to dozens of parents of 4 star/5 star & Blue Chip kids every month. Very few have illusions. (& very few parents of 4 star want their kid sitting on the bench of BCS school when they can get as good or better education AND PLAY at a smaller school.)


Many mid-major D1, DII, NAIA and NJCAA scholarship opportunities are out there with coaches that would love to give them to American kids first.

Bunk. Please name:

- the "mid major" D1s that would "love" to give 4 star (or top 300 3 star) boys slots.
- the D2s that would "love" to give 2 star (or 300-400 3 stars) slots.

- & I bet that there are hundreds of 2 stars (each year) that would love to play for NAIA, if the fit was right.

Heck...not only would a high percentage of coaches not "love" to give slots to American Kids first, many of the coaches haven't even bothered to spend a few seconds to even look at American kids (on TRN). It's mystifying.


Players with an open mind to multiple schools and tennis programs have options.

Yes, they have many options. But a Team that has 80% or more Internationals, is a college (& coach) that is NOT a likely option.
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I think 12 year old players dropping out of tennis does not have much to do with the topic of foreign players, but I think one of the reason's top players at that age drop out is the burn-out factor.

Your wrong. These kids were great athletes. Their parents moved them into Team sports that offered more scholarship opportunities. We see them often at HS events. (they aren't burned out).

Most kids that age that are ranked high are a product of some type of tennis academy training and are probably spending many hours on the court in an academy setting. I agree that being good then does not mean you will be the best in three of four years, but a lot of these kids get sick of tennis. I know one or two kids that were great at 12, and you could not get them to hit a tennis ball at 17 if you put a gun to their head. Any sport in which kids are expected to train so hard at an early age will be subject to this happening some.

Different topic. Some kids burn out, but I'm talking about strategic decisions to avoid the "tennis path". Many are brothers of older siblings who are NOW in college. The parents had been there/done that.
 
These comments are whoppers.



Yes, they have many options. But a Team that has 80% or more Internationals, is a college (& coach) that is NOT a likely option.
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I've repeatedly answered and debunked my assertions here over the years with fact. And I'm not going to do it every time some crybaby pops up on this discussion. Internationals playing the game aside, the undeniable fact is that if an American tennis playing kid wants to play college tennis and get a scholarship they can. Just like in football, basketball and other sports, even Bluechips don't always get offers to play at their 1st or 2nd school of choice.
 
Good players dropping out of a sport and choosing another has been going on for years. This is far from any new kind of phenomenon let alone quantifiable.

What kind of quantifiable data are you looking for?

Many of the best players in the 10's and 12's get passed up in the 14s, 16s & 18s. That's why a lot of them drop out.

Nope. They dumped Tennis for a sport with better ROI.

They learn to win big in the 12's and fail to be able to change what was once a winning game plan (superior pushing or being the biggest kid) to actually learning to construct points, develop a weapon, correct ingrained technical flaws and adjust to other players improvements.

The kids that I am referring to were able to construct points, had weapons, were great at making adjustments on the fly & weren't the "biggest kid". Don't get hung up on the age. The issue is that parents have choices. If they have a kid who is an athlete & has the eye of the tiger, they'll choose a sport that (in college) isn't dominated by 21 y/o freshman - eastern euros.
 
The kids that I am referring to were able to construct points, had weapons, were great at making adjustments on the fly & weren't the "biggest kid". Don't get hung up on the age. The issue is that parents have choices. If they have a kid who is an athlete & has the eye of the tiger, they'll choose a sport that (in college) isn't dominated by 21 y/o freshman - eastern euros.

Another poster living in the 90's.
 
I've repeatedly answered and debunked my assertions here over the years with fact. And I'm not going to do it every time some crybaby pops up on this discussion. Internationals playing the game aside, the undeniable fact is that if an American tennis playing kid wants to play college tennis and get a scholarship they can. Just like in football, basketball and other sports, even Bluechips don't always get offers to play at their 1st or 2nd school of choice.

You have -0- facts. You merely stated whoppers...and that anyone that doesn't agree with you is a (pick a disparaging name)....all the while pontificating the boards with comments like tennis scholarships being as plentiful for American boys as football & basketball. jeez.

An American kid can NOT get a scholarship in tennis as easily as football, basketball or other sports. (Another obvious "factoid" that you'll have a hard time "debunking").
 
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Another poster living in the 90's.

Classic operator. When the facts can't be refuted, attack the messenger.

Please enlighten us as to which:

- "mid major" D1s that would "love" to give 4 star (or top 300 3 star) boys slots.
- D2s that would "love" to give 2 star (or 300-400 3 stars) slots.

- & which NAIAs would love to give the hundreds of 2 stars (each year) that would love to play for NAIA.

Also, please give a logical reason why ... MANY coaches don't even bother to spend a few seconds to even look at American kids (on TRN). If they haven't bothered to even glance at a profile, there must be some pretty interesting reasons for this.
 
You have -0- facts. You have over the years stated whoppers...and that anyone that doesn't agree with you is a (pick a disparaging name)....all the while pontificating the boards with comments like tennis scholarships being as plentiful for American boys as football & basketball. jeez.

An American kid can NOT get a scholarship in tennis as easily as football, basketball or other sports. (Another obvious "factoid" that you'll have a hard time "debunking").

I've never said getting a tennis scholarship is as easy as getting a football or basketball scholarship. I stated facts earlier in this thread. Go debunk them.

Classic operator. When the facts can't be refuted, attack the messenger.

Please enlighten us as to which:

- "mid major" D1s that would "love" to give 4 star (or top 300 3 star) boys slots.
- D2s that would "love" to give 2 star (or 300-400 3 stars) slots.

- & which NAIAs would love to give the hundreds of 2 stars (each year) that would love to play for NAIA.

Also, please give a logical reason why ... MANY coaches don't even bother to spend a few seconds to even look at American kids (on TRN). If they haven't bothered to even glance at a profile, there must be some pretty interesting reasons for this.

You're answers are on rosters all across the country. I've listed them before, over and over. Not doing it again. For those to lazy to do the research they can suffer from ignorance at their own peril.

Ask college coaches who have predominantly internationals on their rosters. I have and I've also stated why they say they have the line up mix they have over and over here. But it all falls on deaf ears like yours who only want to see themselves as a victim. Boo hoo.
 
Good players dropping out of a sport and choosing another has been going on for years. This is far from any new kind of phenomenon let alone quantifiable. Many of the best players in the 10's and 12's get passed up in the 14s, 16s & 18s. That's why a lot of them drop out. They learn to win big in the 12's and fail to be able to change what was once a winning game plan (superior pushing or being the biggest kid) to actually learning to construct points, develop a weapon, correct ingrained technical flaws and adjust to other players improvements.

i can personally attest to this. i was a good 10's & 12's player growing up, but i played multiple sports and got passed up by those that took tennis more serious than me. by 16's, i didn't compete anymore outside of high school season. after high school i didn't play until my mid-20's in any sort of competitive arena.

basketball was more fun to me from 13-18 than tennis & i focused on that about 75% of the time. definitely not a new phenomenon.

a long known truth...once an american kid gets his driver's license, their true passions will show themselves.
 
I've never said getting a tennis scholarship is as easy as getting a football or basketball scholarship.

Yes you did. Read your post up thread.

You're (it's your) answers are on rosters all across the country. I've listed them before, over and over. Not doing it again. For those to (it's too) lazy to do the research they can suffer from ignorance at their own peril. Peril?

We've been doing a lot of research. (the result of research is the reason many parents are posting here & on other sites). We both know which coaches will consider American kids and which won't.

Ask college coaches who have predominantly internationals on their rosters. I have and I've also stated why they say they have the line up mix they have over and over here. But it all falls on deaf ears like yours who only want to see themselves as a victim. Boo hoo.

Not sure how anyone can be a victim when a kid has 3 years of HS left?

I hear you and I don't agree with you. Having more than 2 internationals on a team (at any given time) is bad for American tennis & makes no economic sense for the taxpayer or the school.
 
You have -0- facts. You merely stated whoppers...and that anyone that doesn't agree with you is a (pick a disparaging name)....all the while pontificating the boards with comments like tennis scholarships being as plentiful for American boys as football & basketball. jeez.

An American kid can NOT get a scholarship in tennis as easily as football, basketball or other sports. (Another obvious "factoid" that you'll have a hard time "debunking").

There's an easy answer to this. Football is a 99% American sport. Basketball is like 90% American at the college level. Tennis however is an extremely international sport at the pro level and therefore it trickles down into college tennis
 
Not sure how anyone can be a victim when a kid has 3 years of HS left?

I hear you and I don't agree with you. Having more than 2 internationals on a team (at any given time) is bad for American tennis & makes no economic sense for the taxpayer or the school.

Here's what I said about football and basketball. "Just like in football, basketball and other sports, even Bluechips don't always get offers to play at their 1st or 2nd school of choice". Your imagination then turned it into meaning something else you randomly conjured up.

Grammar and spelling police always a sign of someone with nothing worth stating in a debate.

Name a coach not interested in a American Blue Chip or 5 star player. You can't. Bet you'd have a hard time naming one that would not be interested in an American 4 star. 3 star and below, I could see a D1 coach from a ranked team not interested. You might be able to come up with an exception, maybe two, but you've got nothing.
 
Here's what I said about football and basketball. "Just like in football, basketball and other sports, even Bluechips don't always get offers to play at their 1st or 2nd school of choice". Your imagination then turned it into meaning something else you randomly conjured up.

You're correct. I misread your sentence.

Grammar and spelling police always a sign of someone with nothing worth stating in a debate.

Nope...it's just that the mis-use of your/you're and of two/too/to hurts my eyes.

Name a coach not interested in recruiting more than a token American Blue Chip or 5 star player.

A&M Corpus Christi and Baylor are two in my state. I think there are others.

You can't. Bet you'd have a hard time naming one that would not be interested in an American 4 star.

The two above is a start. But that list is easily put together & would be pretty long.

But the coaches who ignore American young men is just part of a bigger problem. It's a system of recruiting older, semi-pro internationals by many that has gotten progressively worse over the past 20 years. We both agree that it's more often done by the coach of a less desirable college & they recruit older (often quasi-professional) international kids in order to compete. Then it becomes an arms-race.

Bottom line: Having more than two (or even possibly one) International kid on a College Tennis Team is bad for American Tennis & it also doesn't make economic sense for the Taxpayer or for the College.
 
There's an easy answer to this. Football is a 99% American sport. Basketball is like 90% American at the college level. Tennis however is an extremely international sport at the pro level and therefore it trickles down into college tennis

Tell me how the pros "trickle down" into college tennis? ;) I think you might have hit the nail on the head.

In college athletics (which is NOT "for profit" except for football & basketball), it should flow from American High schools UP to American Colleges. It shouldn't "trickle down" from the professional International Pro Ranks into college tennis.
 
But the coaches who ignore American young men is just part of a bigger problem. It's a system of recruiting older, semi-pro internationals by many that has gotten progressively worse over the past 20 years. We both agree that it's more often done by the coach of a less desirable college & they recruit older (often quasi-professional) international kids in order to compete. Then it becomes an arms-race.

Bottom line: Having more than two (or even possibly one) International kid on a College Tennis Team is bad for American Tennis & it also doesn't make economic sense for the Taxpayer or for the College.

Thanks for naming two coaches who you say ignore Americans. Now go have a real conversation with them about it and come back and tell me what they say. If your kid is a Blue Chip, 5 star or in the case of A&M CC maybe lower and you will likely have a different perspective. Waiting for college coaches to come to you is not going to work, on any level.

I can put together a long list and have before of mid-major D1 programs with a range of 2-4 star players on the roster. I'm not listing them again.

You really need to know the NCAA DI rules for tennis and when players have to start playing. Students have 6 months from their date of graduation to start playing DI tennis, then lose a semester of eligibility for each semester that passes there after. I believe the only exception is if the player can prove they did not play competitive tennis after graduation and before they start their first day of college at a DI school. The days of the 21 yr old freshman in DI are long gone and have been for years.
 
Thanks for naming two coaches who you say ignore Americans. Now go have a real conversation with them about it and come back and tell me what they say. If your kid is a Blue Chip, 5 star or in the case of A&M CC maybe lower and you will likely have a different perspective. Waiting for college coaches to come to you is not going to work, on any level.

I can put together a long list and have before of mid-major D1 programs with a range of 2-4 star players on the roster. I'm not listing them again.

You really need to know the NCAA DI rules for tennis and when players have to start playing. Students have 6 months from their date of graduation to start playing DI tennis, then lose a semester of eligibility for each semester that passes there after. I believe the only exception is if the player can prove they did not play competitive tennis after graduation and before they start their first day of college at a DI school. The days of the 21 yr old freshman in DI are long gone and have been for years.

In general Europeans do not graduate HS until they are 19, so they are already one year older. While you are right about losing a year of eligibility they still are coming here to play and starting to play when they are about age 21, so they are still older and usually better, much like a USA junior or senior playing a USA freshman.
 
In general Europeans do not graduate HS until they are 19, so they are already one year older. While you are right about losing a year of eligibility they still are coming here to play and starting to play when they are about age 21, so they are still older and usually better, much like a USA junior or senior playing a USA freshman.

I see many, Euro kids over here as 18 year old freshman just like the American kids. Are some 19? Sure.

If they come as a 21 year old, graduated as a 19 year old and played competitive tennis since their graduation, would only have 3 yrs of remaining of DI eligibility. American kids can do the same, just a be a year younger.

The one year thing is splitting hairs.
 
One of the (perhaps unintended) consequences of any significant limitation on foreign players would be a reduction in the likelihood of top American players going to college as well, as the level would obviously drop significantly.

How many US players do you think would decide to skip college and go straight to the pros? Looking at the number we have on average less than 1 US player from each birth year that makes money on the pro tour. Of course, there are many more that give it a try. Do you think this could influence the top 10 players from each class? Top 15?
 
How many US players do you think would decide to skip college and go straight to the pros? Looking at the number we have on average less than 1 US player from each birth year that makes money on the pro tour. Of course, there are many more that give it a try. Do you think this could influence the top 10 players from each class? Top 15?

Oh we're not talking big numbers obviously. I think about 15 a year fewer going the college route isn't a bad estimate. Across four years that would mean 60 fewer of the top Americans playing college tennis. Of course these are just estimates, and it's difficult to know precisely what the effect would be numbers wise. I think the idea that is currently there though, that college is a legitimate pathway to the pros, would go.

Again, as I stressed earlier, college tennis is about many things of which fitting into USTA player development is but one so this is obviously not the only thing to be taken into consideration. It is worth bearing in mind though.
 
Thanks for naming two coaches who you say ignore Americans. Now go have a real conversation with them about it and come back and tell me what they say. If your kid is a Blue Chip, 5 star or in the case of A&M CC maybe lower and you will likely have a different perspective. Waiting for college coaches to come to you is not going to work, on any level.
I'll be letting my kid have a conversation with them when the time is right. (he's in 9th grade). I've heard that it's bad form for the parent to initiate this.

I can put together a long list and have before of mid-major D1 programs with a range of 2-4 star players on the roster. I'm not listing them again.

I agree that there appears to be many mid-majors that have 4 stars (& a few high 3 stars). But I suspect the 2 stars are non-scholarship walk-ons who are filling out the team at the end of the bench. (probably as it should be if it's D1)

You really need to know the NCAA DI rules for tennis and when players have to start playing. Students have 6 months from their date of graduation to start playing DI tennis, then lose a semester of eligibility for each semester that passes there after. I believe the only exception is if the player can prove they did not play competitive tennis after graduation and before they start their first day of college at a DI school. The days of the 21 yr old freshman in DI are long gone and have been for years.

Is the 6 month guideline the same for American & Internationals? I'll read & understand the Rules (that you suggest) in the next couple of months, thanks.


No matter. The fact that:
- sometimes rules are bent,
- & that sometimes a 19 year old might choose to (give it a shot) & play 18 months in the pros & then come to the US at age 20 years & 10 months....with 3 years eligibility
- & that sometimes some (I'm sure very few) coaches seem to have a pretty close relationship with some foreign "student athlete placement" companies.
- & that we're dealing with International high schools (or home schooled kids) and taking their word on ages & grades transcripts etc.

...makes me not want to get bogged down with putting in place complicated rules & guidelines when it comes to International players being on US college teams.

Just keep it simple. Allow two International kids (or maybe one kid) per squad at any given time. They can be 17 y/o, 19 y/o or 21 y/o when they get here (I don't care). I just want more of my tax dollars going towards the education of US kids. & possibly with more American kids playing college tennis, maybe Junior Tennis in the US might improve (or not). But keep it simple.
 
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If I were the coach at Texas A&M-Corpus Christi, I would not bother to contact blue chip recruits. It would be a joke and a waste of time.

The likelihood is that even a five-star recruit would have no interest in Texas A&M-Corpus Christi. There are only fifty five-star recruits a year, and some schools seem to sign about two every year. Directional State U. has no realistic shot at getting them.

On the other hand, if TAMU-CC can sign a foreign player who is borderline five-star/four-star, that recruit is better than any American recruit that would consider going there. The foreign recruit does not generally turn up his nose at going to Directional State U. like the American recruit does.

There are many four-star recruits every year who forego all tennis scholarship money to sign with academically elite NCAA Division III schools. I doubt that their final decision came down to Directional State U. vs. Emory or Washington U. or Claremont et al. The same kinds of families don't really consider these schools and Directional State U.

As I have asked many times (with no answers provided), where is the school that is comparable in desirability that signs Americans and beats the school that signs foreign players? Let's take TAMU-CC as an example. Which school is no more desirable as a college destination, signs almost only Americans, and beats TAMU-CC?
 
As I have asked many times (with no answers provided), where is the school that is comparable in desirability that signs Americans and beats the school that signs foreign players? Let's take TAMU-CC as an example. Which school is no more desirable as a college destination, signs almost only Americans, and beats TAMU-CC?

I am not sure what point you are trying to make by asking this question. I think everyone agrees there are none (or at least very few) examples.
 
The point is why are teams like that expected to resign themselves to being miserable losers.

If you look at the Southland Conference the majority of players are foreign. If you took that away from everyone each of the teams in the conference would play at a lower level. You don't make TAMCC "miserable losers" you lower the skill level of the entire conference and it is still just as "competitive" just at a different level.

It's like watch a USTA men's match. The 3.5 men are just as competitive as the 4.5 men, and having just as much fun. Just a different level.

There are good arguments supporting foreign players, I just don't think this is one of them.
 
If you look at the Southland Conference the majority of players are foreign. If you took that away from everyone each of the teams in the conference would play at a lower level. You don't make TAMCC "miserable losers" you lower the skill level of the entire conference and it is still just as "competitive" just at a different level.

It's like watch a USTA men's match. The 3.5 men are just as competitive as the 4.5 men, and having just as much fun. Just a different level.

There are good arguments supporting foreign players, I just don't think this is one of them.

but 3.5 mens teams don't go to 4.5 nationals (or more like Open nationals) at the end of every season for winning their 3.5 division.

it is already a given that the power conferences are head and shoulders above the mid & low majors in d1 talent-wise. what you are suggesting is that the mid & low majors simply bow out of the competition so american schools can reject foreign student athletes and be forced to take in less talented american student athletes.

that is a bunch of bs.
 
At all levels of college tennis, a coach has to win the time to keep his/her job.

As to winning the D1 NCAA's or the NTI there have always been maybe 5 to 10 schools who have any chance at winning either. Stanford was there for a long time, but USC has dominated by winning 5 of the last 6. UVA won the other and until recently had won some NTI's. Oklahoma's win at the NTI was a major break through for their coach.

I believe Top Dawg said that the last all American (no foreigners) team that won the NCAA's was 12 years when Illinois won it in 2003. Without some foreign stars it is virtually impossible to win the NCAA's. USC has two foreigners playing 1 and 2 and I think some more lower down. UCLA and UGA have also had many foreigners over the years and have won many championships as a result. UVA has not had more than one in their top 6 in the last few years, but unlike most other schools it has been able to fill its roster with many of the top American HS players for several years now.

Schools like Texas A & M Corpus Christi still have to win, but winning their conference is the best they can do. If schools like this and I also include mid level D1 schools do not recruit foreign players, they will not win and the coach will soon be fired. These schools cannot win with solely American players, because the best Americans are all the tennis powers.

I understand the desires of many here that more Americans and fewer foreigners were on college teams, but barring a NCAA rule limiting the numbers of foreigners to one or two it will never happen, because in all college sports winning is a requirement, if the coach wants to keep his/her job. If any coach decides to recruit only less talented Americans he/she will win only a few matches a year in their conference.

BTW while D3 schools do not give tennis scholarships, they somehow find a way to give academic money to their athletes so in essence they do give tennis scholarships. The Ivy league does the same thing and it also lowers Ivy League academic admission standards for their recruited athletes.
 
Is the 6 month guideline the same for American & Internationals? I'll read & understand the Rules (that you suggest) in the next couple of months, thanks.


No matter. The fact that:
- sometimes rules are bent,
- & that sometimes a 19 year old might choose to (give it a shot) & play 18 months in the pros & then come to the US at age 20 years & 10 months....with 3 years eligibility
- & that sometimes some (I'm sure very few) coaches seem to have a pretty close relationship with some foreign "student athlete placement" companies.
- & that we're dealing with International high schools (or home schooled kids) and taking their word on ages & grades transcripts etc.

...makes me not want to get bogged down with putting in place complicated rules & guidelines when it comes to International players being on US college teams.

Just keep it simple. Allow two International kids (or maybe one kid) per squad at any given time. They can be 17 y/o, 19 y/o or 21 y/o when they get here (I don't care). I just want more of my tax dollars going towards the education of US kids. & possibly with more American kids playing college tennis, maybe Junior Tennis in the US might improve (or not). But keep it simple.

What about private schools? They may not have tax dollars going towards foreign students. What about D3 schools like where I coach? I don't get to give any athletic money. Players come here for academics and get the same aid that a non-athlete would get. I have 4 non-Americans and all but 1 came here without being recruited. Three of them are D1 caliber players. One of them a D1 transfer from a major program. I have 12 players on my team. If they weren't there, I would have kept 2 more and had 10, but one of those two, again, not American.

I think there is a difference between giving athletic scholarships towards foreigners and having them be on the team paying tuition like any other student. Maybe there needs to be limits on the number of foreigners in a given match at the D1 & D2 levels. Like only 2 or 3 can start in a given match. Give out aid in any way that you want, but if you limit who is actually eligible for each match, then you leave it up to the coach to decide how he or she wants to field his or her team, but still fielding a team with mostly Americans.
 
I am not sure what point you are trying to make by asking this question. I think everyone agrees there are none (or at least very few) examples.

Read through these incessantly recurring discussions, and you find that not everyone agrees. Supposedly, coaches are signing foreign players because the coach is too lazy to try to recruit Americans, or is just prejudiced in favor of foreign players. Also, it is often asserted that Americans have all this untapped potential and could be "coached up" if the coach were good enough, and not too lazy to do it.

With all these assertions being made, I contend that we should be able to find a couple of examples out of all Division I teams. But the very people making such assertions can never provide the examples. They can provide examples of schools that are almost all foreign, but never the examples of all-American schools of comparable desirability who can beat them.
 
it is already a given that the power conferences are head and shoulders above the mid & low majors in d1 talent-wise. what you are suggesting is that the mid & low majors simply bow out of the competition so american schools can reject foreign student athletes and be forced to take in less talented american student athletes.

I am not in favor of excluding foreigner students. I was arguing specifically against that debate point.

My personal position is we should keep foreigners in college tennis.

In the US today you can play on most high school tennis teams with minimal effort. The majority of the kids on our high school don't even play year round. They have fun and great competition with the other, equally weak, teams in the area. Many of the serious tennis players in the area don't play because it is a waste of time. The coaches and students do not view tennis as a real sport. All of the other high school sports require a much higher degree of commitment/skill/talent. I do not want to see this happen to D1 tennis in the US.
 
Supposedly, coaches are signing foreign players because the coach is too lazy to try to recruit Americans, or is just prejudiced in favor of foreign players. Also, it is often asserted that Americans have all this untapped potential and could be "coached up" if the coach were good enough, and not too lazy to do it.

With foreign players in the talent pool it obviously pushes out some American players. If you excluded foreign players from the pool coaches from places like TAMCC could still find players to "coach up " and field a team. It would be at a skill level around USTA 4.0. Just take your University's champion club tennis team, add the two Americans from the varsity team and you have your new varsity team.

As a tennis community are we satisfied with D1 tennis at that level? I am not. It should take the same level of commitment/talent/skill to play on the TAMCC basketball team as the tennis team. Foreign players in the talent pool make this possible.
 
Read through these incessantly recurring discussions, and you find that not everyone agrees. Supposedly, coaches are signing foreign players because the coach is too lazy to try to recruit Americans, or is just prejudiced in favor of foreign players. Also, it is often asserted that Americans have all this untapped potential and could be "coached up" if the coach were good enough, and not too lazy to do it.

With all these assertions being made, I contend that we should be able to find a couple of examples out of all Division I teams. But the very people making such assertions can never provide the examples. They can provide examples of schools that are almost all foreign, but never the examples of all-American schools of comparable desirability who can beat them.

I don't understand the argument that signing foreign players is less work than signing American players. It's a big world out there, certainly it can't be easy to sign good foreign players. They can be bigger wildcards than American players, especially since sometimes these coaches don't even see the foreign guys play in person until they step on campus.
 
I don't understand the argument that signing foreign players is less work than signing American players. It's a big world out there, certainly it can't be easy to sign good foreign players. They can be bigger wildcards than American players, especially since sometimes these coaches don't even see the foreign guys play in person until they step on campus.

It takes work signing and there's always risk involved with any new player. Many DI coaches travel overseas to recruit players. They have a pipeline and trusted resources guiding them to the talent. I know a coach who gets top talent and never leaves the states. Conversely and it's rarely discussed, there's plenty of international players that are not very strong all over the place. American kids who really want to play college tennis can find a place. Many of those parents complaining and wasting energy talking about a system that is not going to change, would find time well spent directing that energy to helping their kids simply becoming better tennis players.
 
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Conversely and it's rarely discussed, there's plenty of international players that are not very strong all over the place..

That's a good point. There's a ton of examples around the country of a hot shot international who came in but ended up being a disappointment. An international player isn't a slam dunk simply for being international, it takes talent evaluation and good recruiting to get the best internationals and the coaches who do this effectively at the mid-major level should get a lot of credit rather than the vitriol they receive,
 
I know for a fact there are more roster spots available (at least for boys) then players available or willing to fill them.

As far as I'm concerned every parent of a HS player I've encountered that made the argument against international players has one or two things in common. Either or both, their kid wants to go to a major BCS type school that typically only has elite players on the roster, and their child is not an elite player. Many mid-major D1, DII, NAIA and NJCAA scholarship opportunities are out there with coaches that would love to give them to American kids first. Players with an open mind to multiple schools and tennis programs have options.

I know this is a necro-thread, but it is pertinent to me know and thought I would post.

This may be, as you say, a fact, but it sure doesn't seem as such when looking at good, well located, D-II schools and their rosters are consistently 3/4 to 2/3 foreign players. Sounds like a solid counter-argument, but I'm just not ready to believe this is true after my research based on trying to find the right mix of school and tennis for my non-elite tennis playing child.

There are roughly 800,000 fewer spots available to college seeking students today than ten years ago, yet you would have us believe kids/parents are more selective about colleges than ever? The opposite is true, kids are settling more these days than ever and desperate to get into college. Again, your argument might be selectively accurate, but across the landscape, no way. On top of that, the value of a degree has become so diluted while the costs have become so elevated. Another reason why US players (and their parents) would be accepting scholarships to their second level choices if they were available.

US, not-for-profit colleges should exist to improve the foundation of this country. Tennis is not a money making sport (for the schools), thousands are not clamoring to buy scalped tickets and purchase college-themed tennis gear. If this were so, then the 'gotta do whatever it takes to field the best team' mentality would have credence, but it isn't and it doesn't really matter to the school if the tennis teams win or lose. There should be a more focused intent to bring in bright, talented and future-driven US contributors rather than recruiting simply to get two to three good years out of an overseas player (fully paid for by the US taxpayer)who will return to his/her country and take the knowledge and talent gained with them. They will not (generally) be contributing alumni nor enhance the school's reputation with their actions/contributions going forward.

Again, if this is true, I have not run into the situation of a player/parent reporting they were offered money to ABC school (middle of the pack or not), which they turned down, holding out for an elite level offer. Everyone knows parents would be bragging to no end about the schools they turned down if this was the case.
 
I'm not saying that all mid-majors, DII NAIA and NJCAA schools would take good American players looking for a scholarship to play college tennis. If you look at the top ranked schools in those divisions sure many are heavy with internationals. I'm saying there are other schools out there. I'm not saying kids and parents are more selective than ever, that's hard to judge. The level of how selective kids and parents are is subjective, but I will say with the decrease in men's tennis programs options are less. But, options still remain. I will say that internationals are far less concerned with where they play college tennis or the name or reputation of the school they attend. They are aggressively looking for opportunities to play college tennis for scholarships and if that means they aren't DI material, many of them will look downstream at DII, NAIA an JUCO. While the whole situation may seem unfair on the surface to a kid and parents in a state that has many tennis playing colleges and their kid can't find a fit, how fair is it for tennis playing kids in states that have few if any tennis programs? Should those states like Alaska, Maine or Wyoming for example be forced to have tennis programs? Wouldn't kids from those states likely have to go away to play college tennis out of state?

I know some kids who turned down or refused to look at mid-major, NAIA or NJCAA opportunities and opted to play for pay at a more prestigious DIII schools. Their parents then proceed to ***** about the lack of opportunity due to internationals at the largest state and and private DI schools yet send their very kid to a DIII. WTH?

I stand behind my position that players and parents with an open mind to multiple schools and tennis programs have options.
 
The issue with Baylor has been discussed before. Nobody wants to live in Waco, TX.. And the American players who are good enough to play in a top ten D1 program or at another Big 12 Texas school already have other options.

That is such a load of BS.........I hate Baylor as I went to a competing school but you must never have been there. The school has amazing facilities and Waco has grown........been going for years to play tournaments at an awesome public facility and enjoy it.

Again I hate everything green/gold but that campus and facilities awesome and it not the Waco of 20yrs ago.
 
That is such a load of BS.........I hate Baylor as I went to a competing school but you must never have been there. The school has amazing facilities and Waco has grown........been going for years to play tournaments at an awesome public facility and enjoy it.

Again I hate everything green/gold but that campus and facilities awesome and it not the Waco of 20yrs ago.

So, your theory is that the blue chip players who commit to Texas, Texas A&M, TCU and Oklahoma were never contacted by the Baylor coach? I would love to hear from the players themselves.
 
I know this is a necro-thread, but it is pertinent to me know and thought I would post.

This may be, as you say, a fact, but it sure doesn't seem as such when looking at good, well located, D-II schools and their rosters are consistently 3/4 to 2/3 foreign players. Sounds like a solid counter-argument, but I'm just not ready to believe this is true after my research based on trying to find the right mix of school and tennis for my non-elite tennis playing child.

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There are a higher percentage of international players in D2 than in D1. I looked at the top 150 D2 players on UTR (range about 11.7- to almost 14), and only 14 were Americans-less than 10% (I excluded from US totals players that were listed from another country on roster, but as US on UTR-players are probably trying to set up residency here). If you look at top 100 D1 (range high 13 to almost 15), it's 40% American. The top 100 in D3 with no athletic scholarships is 90%+ American (think range was about 11.7-13.2). If k9exo's son wants to play D2, he should look at private D2s where he might qualify for stacked aid-merit + athletic. Mostly 2 and 3 star US players play D2; probably the 2 stars are only getting merit or need-based aid. Many of the public D2s have pipelines to particular academies in certain foreign countries. A player graduates, becomes an assistant coach, and then recruits from his former country. The best international players are recruited for D1 before they graduate. The next tier graduate, come to the States, work on their English and SAT scores, play some US ITFs, train with a pro they know at a US academy ,and usually get housing with an American family. They can compete for first 6 months, and then 2nd 6 months they cant compete but can still drill and visit colleges.Most find a roster spot with D2 or NAIA and start the following fall as 19 year old freshmen.

Andfor is right that these players will go anywhere that offers 75% +. Some contact 100+ schools with Emails. We had a player from a country that averages 80 degrees year round stay with us. He did not play his best tennis when it got chilly. I suggested he cross South Dakota off his list. Luckily for him, he was recruited by other colleges in warmer locations. Many internationals commit to colleges they have not even visited; they talk to coaches via Skype. US kids think it is a lot to write and call 12 schools.

Per TRN charts, over 800 US boys committed to colleges in 2015. About 400 went to D3 schools. A little over 100 went to D2 schools. Over 300 went to D1 schools, but there are unfunded roster spots for D1. There are roster spots, not scholarships, for most players who would want to play tennis, but some of those spots are at mediocre colleges with poor facilities, parttime coaches, and no athletic scholarships. Some teams only pay for player strings; players have to buy their own shoes and string their own racquets. The club tennis teams at big schools would kill many of those teams. There are college teams with players who have UTRs of 7 when a lot of high schools have players ranked 10-12 UTR.

I dont know what k9exo means by non elite. However, from observation of past recruits who got to play and those who sat on the bench, it seems most US freshmen on Power 5 and ranked teams that get to play are 5 star+ 12.5+ UTR. Mid majors may include some 3 stars, but most are 4 or 5 star, 11.5 UTR+ to play. Coaches will recruit players .5-.75 UTR below for the bench. Private D2 are 3 star +, 11 UTR+. Players that are not least a 3 star and UTR 11+ should look at D3 or NAIA. Players should play tennis because they are passionate about the sport, not for the hope of scholarship. The lucky players are the one that get 20% return on their training investment. Most parents of 4 star and up players have spent $75,000 to $200,000 over 5-12 years to get their players to that level. There are non monetary values to playing college tennis: priority in housing and registration, academic support, admission into selective school with help of coach, excitement of playing college tennis, game development by coach and matchplay, opportunity to play and room with players around the world, networking, etc.

Choose a college that is a social, academic, and tennis fit using UTR and TRN of current players as a gauge. If player is not the level to play at his dream school, consider club tennis. My son has would not want to go to a college without any international players, but he wouldnt want to choose a team either with only 2 Americans. Many public D1s these days have internationals at the top of the lineup receiving the bulk of scholarships and cheaper in state US players toward the bottom of the lineup.
 
My son has would not want to go to a college without any international players, but he wouldnt want to choose a team either with only 2 Americans. Many public D1s these days have internationals at the top of the lineup receiving the bulk of scholarships and cheaper in state US players toward the bottom of the lineup.

I like this statement and I agree with your son. The schools that go all international (Miss State, Ole Miss, Texas Tech, ETSU, VCU, Auburn etc.) probably aren't very attractive to American recruits. But it's also probably a turn off to some when it's clear that a team is recruiting only Americans for what they think is some kind of noble cause. A good mix is the best
 
What college tennis shouldn't be though is a stepping stone into the pros. In tennis there is no mandatory time spent in college to become pro, we shouldn't accept guys who tried failed and are now trying to come here.
 
I like this statement and I agree with your son. The schools that go all international (Miss State, Ole Miss, Texas Tech, ETSU, VCU, Auburn etc.) probably aren't very attractive to American recruits. But it's also probably a turn off to some when it's clear that a team is recruiting only Americans for what they think is some kind of noble cause. A good mix is the best
Ole Miss has an American playing #4-5 right now in Grey Hamilton, they have had some good Americans in the past as well, but they also have a strong Swedih pipeline via Toby H. Also Miss St has had a few Americans playing, but it is tough when some Top Americans would prefer not to go to Oxford or Starkville and coaches are paid to win
 
But it's also probably a turn off to some when it's clear that a team is recruiting only Americans for what they think is some kind of noble cause.
The noble cause being american taxpayers playing college tennis that they've themselves funded? I have trouble grasping how we turn our backs on fellow americans, especially for something as trivial as playing a college sport.
 
What college tennis shouldn't be though is a stepping stone into the pros. In tennis there is no mandatory time spent in college to become pro, we shouldn't accept guys who tried failed and are now trying to come here.

Shouldn't be a stepping stone to he pros? Every other college sport has plenty of athletes go to the pros. College tennis probably produces the least pros of any college sport. By not accepting the best juniors out there college tennis is forever pigeonholing itself as far inferior to other college sports (as far as level comparable to the pros).

Do you mean guys like Blaz Rola who got their ATP ranking up to a respectable level and then decided to try out college?
 
Shouldn't be a stepping stone to he pros? Every other college sport has plenty of athletes go to the pros. College tennis probably produces the least pros of any college sport. By not accepting the best juniors out there college tennis is forever pigeonholing itself as far inferior to other college sports (as far as level comparable to the pros).

Do you mean guys like Blaz Rola who got their ATP ranking up to a respectable level and then decided to try out college?
The other sports are revenue sports and the corrupt ncaa worked with nba to make a rule making college mandatory. Football requires a 3 year waiting period after graduating highschool before going into nfl, this is a precautionary measure so 18 year olds aren't killed on field.

Guys like Blaz Rola are exactly what I am talking about, playing davis cup and having played pro tennis for 4 years before with no documentation of what happened to prize money. The ncaa unfavorably allows foreign players to basically be semipros and then come to the us, whereas us players must forfeir future prize money before the tournament starts.
 
Shouldn't be a stepping stone to he pros? Every other college sport has plenty of athletes go to the pros. College tennis probably produces the least pros of any college sport. By not accepting the best juniors out there college tennis is forever pigeonholing itself as far inferior to other college sports (as far as level comparable to the pros).

Do you mean guys like Blaz Rola who got their ATP ranking up to a respectable level and then decided to try out college?
He was ranked 423 in the world 2010 and his freshman year. Had alread had 2 years on the pro tour at that point as well.
 
That would probably eliminate Chrysochos of Wake as well. I see your point and can understand it. Personally I do not find it to be an issue because it is not like there is one team out there that is getting all foreign pros (well maybe Baylor). They are not joining college tennis is high numbers. It's pretty rare for a guy to have an already established ATP ranking (top 700 or 600) to choose college tennis. So when we get a few that choose to play college I think i elevates the level of play and is good for the game.

Now if all the guys ranked 300-600 in the ATP suddenly started coming to college and were pushing out Americans entirely then I would agree with you.
 
That would probably eliminate Chrysochos of Wake as well. I see your point and can understand it. Personally I do not find it to be an issue because it is not like there is one team out there that is getting all foreign pros (well maybe Baylor). They are not joining college tennis is high numbers. It's pretty rare for a guy to have an already established ATP ranking (top 700 or 600) to choose college tennis. So when we get a few that choose to play college I think i elevates the level of play and is good for the game.

Now if all the guys ranked 300-600 in the ATP suddenly started coming to college and were pushing out Americans entirely then I would agree with you.
one big note as well is for the most part these guys do not get 4 yrs to play tennis, most come in and due to eligibility sit for a year and/or only get 2-3 yrs if they had played on the tour some right after graduating HS
 
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