Sports Illustrated's Jon Wertheim on Foreign College Tennis Players

Guys like Blaz Rola are exactly what I am talking about, playing davis cup and having played pro tennis for 4 years before with no documentation of what happened to prize money. The ncaa unfavorably allows foreign players to basically be semipros and then come to the us, whereas us players must forfeir future prize money before the tournament starts.

Just one point here, but I can assure you that far from stashing away prize money, a guy who is 400 in the world is operating at a significant loss.

To come back to an earlier point, as someone who has coached several non-American players who have gone on to play college tennis, I have always told them to avoid colleges where the roster is 100% foreign. Both for their own experience and also because of what it signals about the program/university/location.
 
Just one point here, but I can assure you that far from stashing away prize money, a guy who is 400 in the world is operating at a significant loss.

To come back to an earlier point, as someone who has coached several non-American players who have gone on to play college tennis, I have always told them to avoid colleges where the roster is 100% foreign. Both for their own experience and also because of what it signals about the program/university/location.
I have no issue with foreign players that want educations here, except maybe at most public schools. But they still make more money than what is allowed for americans. Beside the point, at 19 years old and top 300 can get good sponsors.
 
But they still make more money than what is allowed for americans. Beside the point, at 19 years old and top 300 can get good sponsors.

The rules re: what money you can take are exactly the same for American and overseas players.

Rola was ranked about 400 before going to college. As an 18/19 year old Slovenian I'd be very surprised if he had any anything in the way of significant commercial sponsorship behind him. The best a player like that could generally hope for would be that a wealthy private individual would help them out with the costs of travelling.
 
The rules re: what money you can take are exactly the same for American and overseas players.

Rola was ranked about 400 before going to college. As an 18/19 year old Slovenian I'd be very surprised if he had any anything in the way of significant commercial sponsorship behind him. The best a player like that could generally hope for would be that a wealthy private individual would help them out with the costs of travelling.
Ah, the rules are the same yes. But in the US players must sign and fill out ameteur waivers before competing. In europe they don't.

I know for a fact that there are players right now who have made money beyond what they were supposed to take from the tournament, and that they plan on going to college this fall.
 
We are making too much of this! I just want to have a competitive team and see good players playing. If there is a blue chip from Germany playing who may be on the ATP tour one day, I want to be able to at least say I saw them in college. Or if my team is competitive and it takes some foreign players to get there I would rather see that then some 2 and 3 star American recruits and a subpar team because they are American. Once the school uniform is on its all the same team. A 4 or 5 star American player will never get declined at a major school, especially in state as they can be on the team (public university) without using up a scholarship. It benefits coaches to go this route but many coaches don't have that option.

If recruiting were going to be so isolationist, then I would argue that football and basketball teams could only recruit players in their own states. What would that do to all the big ten schools that pluck kids out of Texas and Florida instead of Indiana and Illinois. They do this to recruit to field the best team! Lets see some good tennis. Tennis is an international sport, and being able to say you watched Kevin Anderson or Brian Becker at that level is cool.

Sorry, realize there are people who feel strongly about the American only scenario and will never see it another way. I would only add our schools should have global footprints and tennis is a good catalyst for that. Schools should field the best teams they can with who goes to the school, foreign, out of state, or in state. Until their is money making in the sport for a school it makes sense they go the best route they can for a successful program. If anything I would argue that the development of American players as Juniors could be stronger, not attack the college recruiting.
 
Everyone on this site loves tennis. Many would agree that something is not right when the majority of players are international. This helps teams stay competitive. However there are very few top competitive teams. Once you get past the top 20 (in every division) it thins out quickly. Why not spread that talent out and limit each team how many international players they can have. I would put a limit between 1 and 4. Make this game more entertaining to the players and the fans. Maybe matches might be a little closer. I just think tennis is so easy to cut from a budget when the only students playing are foreign.
 
Everyone on this site loves tennis. Many would agree that something is not right when the majority of players are international.

Wrong? I guess what is wrong is the mathematical understanding. Should every one-star recruit be on a college tennis roster somewhere? We have a lot of colleges with tennis teams, even after the cutbacks of recent decades. Combining NCAA at all three division levels with NAIA and even NJCAA junior colleges, we have more than 1000 men's college teams. The typical team needs to sign 2-3 players per year, at least. Do the math. It means we have to dip below the 1-star level to fill those spots with just Americans. I see commitment listings at tennisrecruiting.net where the player commits to an NCAA D-III school that is not very good and has "no historical ranking data available" according to his page at TRN. So, he has never been even a one-star recruit, probably never played USTA tournaments.

As andfor and others have posted, there is a spot for everyone of every level of ability, somewhere. So, what is left to whine about?
 
Wrong? I guess what is wrong is the mathematical understanding. Should every one-star recruit be on a college tennis roster somewhere? We have a lot of colleges with tennis teams, even after the cutbacks of recent decades. Combining NCAA at all three division levels with NAIA and even NJCAA junior colleges, we have more than 1000 men's college teams. The typical team needs to sign 2-3 players per year, at least. Do the math. It means we have to dip below the 1-star level to fill those spots with just Americans. I see commitment listings at tennisrecruiting.net where the player commits to an NCAA D-III school that is not very good and has "no historical ranking data available" according to his page at TRN. So, he has never been even a one-star recruit, probably never played USTA tournaments.

As andfor and others have posted, there is a spot for everyone of every level of ability, somewhere. So, what is left to whine about?
Except d1 is something like 30% foreign. And higher as you go up the ranks.
 
Wrong? I guess what is wrong is the mathematical understanding. Should every one-star recruit be on a college tennis roster somewhere? We have a lot of colleges with tennis teams, even after the cutbacks of recent decades. Combining NCAA at all three division levels with NAIA and even NJCAA junior colleges, we have more than 1000 men's college teams. The typical team needs to sign 2-3 players per year, at least. Do the math. It means we have to dip below the 1-star level to fill those spots with just Americans. I see commitment listings at tennisrecruiting.net where the player commits to an NCAA D-III school that is not very good and has "no historical ranking data available" according to his page at TRN. So, he has never been even a one-star recruit, probably never played USTA tournaments.

As andfor and others have posted, there is a spot for everyone of every level of ability, somewhere. So, what is left to whine about?

US taxpayer funded colleges should be about educating US taxpayers and their families. Seems to me college tennis programs, while looking for short term wins, are shooting themselves in the foot in the long-term program health by loading with non-US students. But then I'm not naïve, education has taken a back page to big-time college football and bball athletic programs.... just hate to see it filtering down to tennis.
 
Everyone on this site loves tennis. Many would agree that something is not right when the majority of players are international. This helps teams stay competitive. However there are very few top competitive teams. Once you get past the top 20 (in every division) it thins out quickly. Why not spread that talent out and limit each team how many international players they can have. I would put a limit between 1 and 4. Make this game more entertaining to the players and the fans. Maybe matches might be a little closer. I just think tennis is so easy to cut from a budget when the only students playing are foreign.

I respectfully disagree with several of the things you mentioned. First of all foreign players don't make or break a team, and they certainly aren't why teams get cut. People want a winner, they don't care where they are from. There number of reasons why school cut their programs but starts because the AD's are usually old school basketball, baseball, and football guys; they protect those sports, and tennis to them is a money loser and not what they consider a major sport. Plus, most student bodies traditionally do not support the tennis teams, so if no one is watching who's going to miss it. And, money loser in the sense that they don't understand how to sustain a tennis program and feel like maintaining courts, equipment, scholarships, and travel is a waste when their football program needs to re-sod their practice field. Then you add in the title IX factor, and mens sports like Tennis, Wrestling, Soccer, Swimming and Golf disappear. They don't care who plays on those teams as long as the program wins, and that is the mistake coaches get trapped with as they just worry about the winning aspect to maintain the sport and don't know how to work the process. Most coaches at lower level programs fall into those positions and don't understand who to make a program successful. They were either a player on a team a long time ago or some TA that was the only option who would agree to make $30,000/year to coach the team.

I'll say again, look at most programs they have kids from out of state and out of country. If Michigan can't get a player from China, they'll get them from Florida. They are getting the best players they can that can win, build the program, and mesh with the school, doesn't matter where they come from.

Every major program wasn't always there. I have a huge amount of respect for Ohio State as an example, Ty Tucker has built a program from mediocre to a powerhouse. But what people don't realize is that it has taken a lot of hustle on his part to get there. They still have a ways to go as they could certainly get more students to matches, but they have started a nice following and people are coming out to watch. Read about Dan McGill and the history of the Georgia program. Donors, hustling the athletic department, good recruiting, built the Georgia program. It can be done, but you need special person to bridge that gap, and an interested or open minded athletic program. And there are lots of good teams in the mix that aren't in the top 20. Look at Rice, look at the Ivy's, Georgia State, Kennesaw State, Middle Tennessee to name a few. Any of those teams could compete with a top 20 and possibly win.

No school will cut a program that has student support, a coach fighting for it that believes in the program and is able to support it with some donations, and a winning team.
 
I People want a winner, they don't care where they are from.
ncaa march madness is over. Do you think it would have remotely the same interest if we tuned into better teams composed of the top 10 Chinese players vs 10 Eastern Europeans on the court? 20 kids that are going to permanently leave the US in a couple years....
 
I believe the average person does not follow college tennis. They have no idea of the high percentage of top players that are foreign. It may be true that winning is the only thing that counts. However college athletics is changing. The nonrevenue sports are going to be forced to raise more money. If your tennis school has a good donor base, good coach, and wins, they may not even need student support. I just don't see a majority of schools in that position. When the next downturn (moneywise) in college athletics occurs I see tennis suffering more than the other sports.
 
ncaa march madness is over. Do you think it would have remotely the same interest if we tuned into better teams composed of the top 10 Chinese players vs 10 Eastern Europeans on the court? 20 kids that are going to permanently leave the US in a couple years....

Poor comparison. Basketball is a National sport, with very few international players....Also, your hypothetical is not only improbable, but impossible. However, in the spirit of your challenge, the Villanova basketball team only had four players from Pennsylvania with only two that saw action. Do you think anyone cares at Villanova that they have kids playing there that aren't local. Probably not. North Carolina has players from all over, its not all North Carolina players. And I bet either team would take a Yao Ming in a second if he was available. It's closed minded. It's like my grandpa not liking a team because they don't have any white players, its an outdated approach and mindset to sports.

A student is a student is a student.

Take a look at the 35th ranked Ole Miss tennis team:
ole-m-tennis-mtt.html

http://www.olemisssports.com/sports/m-tennis/mtt/ole-m-tennis-mtt.html (In case the photo doesn't come up)

They have one person from Mississippi on the team, the rest are from all over. Can you point out the Mississippi player in the team photo? Do you think any of those kids don't look like college kids?

If I am an Ole Miss fan (Which I am not), I don't care. I want to watch a competitive team of college kids, and thats what this is. Doesn't matter if they represent Mississippi, the US or not.

Here is the Toledo mens team:
roster.aspx

http://utrockets.com/roster.aspx?path=mten (photo)

Looks like a college tennis team to me. Only 3 players from Ohio on it. Don't care where they are from, they are Toledo students.

How about the University of Florida Mens tennis team:
roster.aspx

http://floridagators.com/roster.aspx?path=tennis-men&

Looks like a bunch of college students. Only three from Florida, others are from Tennessee, Georgia, and International. Do I care? no, they are a great team to watch. They're students at the school; Doesn't matter
 
Do you think anyone cares at Villanova that they have kids playing there that aren't local. Probably not.
You're free to duck the question but I think you're mistaken to equate out of state students (especially given nearly 80% of nova's students are out of state) with foreign players. Regardless of how improbable, the question was if there would be as much interest in watching 10 foreign students on a court representing a college before they packed up to forever leave. Even if the overall quality of a game improved. It's collegiate sports.
 
You're free to duck the question but I think you're mistaken to equate out of state students (especially given nearly 80% of nova's students are out of state) with foreign players. Regardless of how improbable, the question was if there would be as much interest in watching 10 foreign students on a court representing a college before they packed up to forever leave. Even if the overall quality of a game improved. It's collegiate sports.

You left me a tough comparison. Basketball is a sport with almost an exclusive American player footprint, good foreign players play internationally and then maybe try out for an NBA team, but that has only happened the last ten years. Tennis has an international footprint, and is widely played; so you are comparing apples to oranges. So, not ducking the question at all my response compares the same philosophy which is your suggestion as a fan that you would be more motivated to see local (in this case American) talent rather then seeing a good team, and that because you feel that way that is why students don't show up to tennis matches. All I am suggesting is that college students are the same, no matter where they are from and I would rather just see a competitive team. Sure, I love to see a player on Ohio State's team who is from Ohio, but I would rather watch Mikeal Torpegard who is from Denmark and is awesome to watch. So again, for the fan they are cheering for their fellow student and not worried about where they are from or who they are. And, I would add that most students embrace other students from other countries. Worrying about where they are from is an outdate mindset.

Besides, you didn't say anything but I am sure you couldn't pick out the Mississippi player from the photo. The fact is that those are students, and students will always root for students.

Students don't show up to tennis matches at average schools because of a multitude or reasons, and none of them have to do with the persons origin. The venue, the availability of getting to the venue, the Athletic department support, the coach, the team outreach, and the success of the team are all much bigger factors. Fan bases at major schools didn't happen overnight but were all built with the help of foreign players. So to suggest that foreign players keep people away is closed minded. It may be why it keeps you uninterested, but for many it doesn't matter.

I guess we can agree we disagree. You can keep feeling that way and I realize many people do; I am not trying to change your mind. Just would like to make sure people focus on what builds the sport rather then diluting it as a solution. I have been a part of a program that was cut so I have experienced this first hand. Programs like Baylor, Ole Miss, and Ohio State have built a fan base in the last few years by putting effort into many things, and none of them had to do with recruiting American players exclusively. 15 years ago OSU had almost all Ohio Players, a rec venue as their home site and nowhere to watch, stand or participate. The players were average, the tennis was average, and if you went it was because you maybe knew someone playing, but you never went back. Now they have a terrific venue, a top ranked team, a history now of winning, and the tennis events are a blast to go to. Doesn't even cross my mind where the person is from.
 
Just would like to make sure people focus on what builds the sport rather then diluting it as a solution.

Absolutely. Went to many a HS match due to connection with players in town. Now go to many a college match due to connection with child and her local teammates. Recognize D1 tennis isn't going to explode in popularity just due to parent attendance but I think you might be downplaying the significance of fans/kids connection with players based on geography.... or I make too much of it--I am not familiar with big time d1 programs or what drives attendance. (I would be surprised to hear the student body is concerned or even recognize the difference in two 5 vs 3 stars.)

It's college. Two local young 1 star players who are playing and working toward their bio degree are more exciting to me than a couple 5 stars with no connection and names I can't pronounce. Outdated? Been called worse.

Even at the pro level, players get much of their fan base due to country of origin. Pulling for locals is being a homey but still a huge driver.

That all said, I'd love to see US college tennis explode in popularity.
 
Not calling you anything, don't take it personally just putting it in perspective. Not pronouncing a name is silly. Carter Lin is American, plays at Michigan and is really good. He's from Florida, but has an Asian last name, not a reason to root against him. Chase Perez Blanco is an amazing player for UF to watch and he's American. His name is Spanish and may not sound like an English name/surname but its not reason to like or dislike him. If your a fan of Florida, you like him and he's fun to watch. Paul Oosterbaan is a tough name to pronounce and sounds European, but he's American and a great player for Georgia. Do I care he has a funny last name and is from Michigan not Georgia? No way go Dawgs! I am a big Georgia fan and sure if the team was made up of all Georgia players that would be cool, but not all Georgia players have ties to the school and they go all over the place. Its what college is all about, look past stereotypes and rooting for fellow students.

I am on the same page with you in the sense that I would love to see more American tennis stars in college, but just like the pro's there just aren't that many. Most D1 colleges have a healthy mix which I am ok with, some have all foreigners, some have all Americans, its not all one way or another it just depends on where and how the coach gets players and what the local demographic looks like. The rising stars sometimes jump right into the challenger tour (Taylor Fritz, Ryan Harrison etc) so we are losing potential stars without any college. Especially on the women's side, any good young American female player bypasses college. And I would agree that if there was someone like Taylor Fritz going to UCLA or Stanford he might bring out more fans, but the Jr ranks aren't filled with that many Fritz's. I think the American tennis fan still appreciates watching Djocovic and Federer regardless if they are American are not. But to your point if they were it might generate more excitement.

I would disagree that the college student tennis fan is not discerning and wouldn't know the difference between a blue chip and 1 star. The Americans not making the team are usually the tennis fans at the school going to the matches, so they are very familiar. Plus, they want to see hard hit balls, good movement, fast speed, not a slow paced error prone match which would certainly be the 1 star level. If I am going to watch some 1 stars play I would rather go drink beers and watch the 4.0 USTA team play at my club its the same thing.

One last comment, I think College tennis is getting better as more players see value in playing college rather then spending a lot of money and lingering on the Challenger tour for 3-4 years, only to not make it and not be able to play college at all. Eric Quigley, Noah Rubin, Mitchell Krueger, all spent a year or two in college before jumping to the pros and are American, so the quality is there and the interest level is increasing.
 
I would disagree that the college student tennis fan is not discerning and wouldn't know the difference between a blue chip and 1 star. ....

One last comment, I think College tennis is getting better as more players see value in playing college rather then spending a lot of money and lingering on the Challenger tour for 3-4 years, only to not make it and not be able to play college at all. Eric Quigley, Noah Rubin, Mitchell Krueger, all spent a year or two in college before jumping to the pros and are American, so the quality is there and the interest level is increasing.
I did say 3 vs 5 star lol. You appear to be equating interest to quality; perhaps correctly but I have my doubts. I think student bodies recognize their local peers and classmates and the "hired guns."

I'd struggle with the correct answer if proved that foreign player teams actually raised the student body interest level.
 
You're free to duck the question but I think you're mistaken to equate out of state students (especially given nearly 80% of nova's students are out of state) with foreign players. Regardless of how improbable, the question was if there would be as much interest in watching 10 foreign students on a court representing a college before they packed up to forever leave. Even if the overall quality of a game improved. It's collegiate sports.

Michigan State reportedly emphasizes in-state recruiting in order to reduce the budget (athletic department is only charged for in-state tuition that way). Their team is usually not very good. Is there a lot of student interest in the matches? Alumni interest? Could there be any less interest if they were all foreign players?
 
Michigan State reportedly emphasizes in-state recruiting in order to reduce the budget (athletic department is only charged for in-state tuition that way). Their team is usually not very good. Is there a lot of student interest in the matches? Alumni interest? Could there be any less interest if they were all foreign players?

Great point. They are always terrible. Rarely ranked and have made the tournament only once in their history. Making them completeley irrelevant amongst their other sports on campus. Now if they had foreginers and were top 40 and challenging in the Big Ten they might actually get some fan interest.
 
Poor comparison.

Basketball makes money. Thousands go to see the games, because it is one of the big games...comparisons can only be made with football. There are already fans going to see the game. This is not the case in tennis. A tennis program that breaks even would set records. Why focus on a winning team when it doesn't matter one way or another? I get it potentially for a private school, but for a state funded, non-profit school, this approach does not even come close to accomplishing the mission of the institution.

Also, calling someone racist (even if in a roundabout, creative way without actually saying it) is disingenuous, and as easy as picking low hanging fruit. Smacks of a lack of substantial arguments.
 
They typically finish at 17 in Sweden. It is hard to generalize about something like this across all of Europe.

I'm not sure who told you 17 is typical. I've spent a large fraction of my adult life in Sweden. I'm under the impression 18 is a much more common graduation age, with more than a few finishing at 19. College is then typically 3 years, not 4. I've been to a number of schools there, and indeed attended my wife's 10th and 20th boarding school reunions.

Gaming gymnasium graduation in Sweden is much simpler than achieving similar results in a US public system. So, too, the tennis training system in Sweden is in part publicly funded and not connected to the school systems, from start to finish.
 
Basketball makes money. Thousands go to see the games, because it is one of the big games...comparisons can only be made with football. There are already fans going to see the game. This is not the case in tennis. A tennis program that breaks even would set records. Why focus on a winning team when it doesn't matter one way or another? I get it potentially for a private school, but for a state funded, non-profit school, this approach does not even come close to accomplishing the mission of the institution.

Also, calling someone racist (even if in a roundabout, creative way without actually saying it) is disingenuous, and as easy as picking low hanging fruit. Smacks of a lack of substantial arguments.

Baseball loses more money than any other NCAA sport. The costs are astronomical and very few schools get enough fans to make it a big on campus sports. Even the schools with large stadiums and a lot of fans do not break even with baseball.
 
Baseball loses more money than any other NCAA sport. The costs are astronomical and very few schools get enough fans to make it a big on campus sports. Even the schools with large stadiums and a lot of fans do not break even with baseball.

When was baseball brought up? We were talking sports, not skills. Might as well discuss billiards.
 
One more comment on the subject. Very few people want to eliminate foreign players, just limit them. I would even go for a limit of 4, 5 or 6 per team. That would be a start, some rosters have more then that.
 
Every major program wasn't always there. I have a huge amount of respect for Ohio State as an example, Ty Tucker has built a program from mediocre to a powerhouse. But what people don't realize is that it has taken a lot of hustle on his part to get there. They still have a ways to go as they could certainly get more students to matches, but they have started a nice following and people are coming out to watch. Read about Dan McGill and the history of the Georgia program. Donors, hustling the athletic department, good recruiting, built the Georgia program. It can be done, but you need special person to bridge that gap, and an interested or open minded athletic program. And there are lots of good teams in the mix that aren't in the top 20. Look at Rice, look at the Ivy's, Georgia State, Kennesaw State, Middle Tennessee to name a few. Any of those teams could compete with a top 20 and possibly win.

No school will cut a program that has student support, a coach fighting for it that believes in the program and is able to support it with some donations, and a winning team.


I agree Ty Tucker has done an amazing job at Ohio State. However, he's also done it with the help of some overaged, foreign, "semi-pro" players:

- Di Feo is a freshman, but turns 21 next week.
- Torpegaard is a sophomore, but turns 22 next month.
- Steinbach is a junior, but turns 24 next month.

Now, I'm not sure if these guys are going to stay all 4 years, but at this rate, they'll turn 24-25 by the time they graduate. You don't think that's an issue?
 
Everyone on this site loves tennis. Many would agree that something is not right when the majority of players are international. This helps teams stay competitive. However there are very few top competitive teams. Once you get past the top 20 (in every division) it thins out quickly. Why not spread that talent out and limit each team how many international players they can have. I would put a limit between 1 and 4. Make this game more entertaining to the players and the fans. Maybe matches might be a little closer. I just think tennis is so easy to cut from a budget when the only students playing are foreign.

I think you're completely wrong about this. Right now, international players are the only thing allowing teams other than the elites to even be competitive. If you capped the number of foreign players they could take, the best Americans would still go to the top schools, as they largely do now, and rather than getting competitive international players, the lower schools would be forced to take uncompetitive American players.
 
This is an even dumber argument when you consider the fact that most American universities are moving towards having a large number of international students in their general student population. At Wake Forest, I believe around 10% of the freshman class is international. So we're going to say that these kids can come to school here but not play sports? Makes no sense
 
This whole argument is getting tiresome. Grey Hamilton, the lone American who plays in the lineup for Ole Miss seems to like playing with international players.

"Everyone is totally unique and different from one another, but we all get along like we grew up as best friends. I can say the phrases "let’s go" and "come on" in five languages, thanks to my teammates." If all the top players go to just a few schools, which is basically happening right now, coaches are going to do what they have to do to be competitive.
 
This whole argument is getting tiresome. Grey Hamilton, the lone American who plays in the lineup for Ole Miss seems to like playing with international players.

"Everyone is totally unique and different from one another, but we all get along like we grew up as best friends. I can say the phrases "let’s go" and "come on" in five languages, thanks to my teammates." If all the top players go to just a few schools, which is basically happening right now, coaches are going to do what they have to do to be competitive.
You nailed it. Schools like USC, UCLA, UVA even Stanford and a few others monopolize the top American talent every year. Limit internationals and that will get worse. We'll have the top 10 in D1 tennis and the rest will be worse than cannon fodder. I've always asked questions like what Blue Chip or 5 star wants to go to ETSU, Samford, Stetson, etc., What African American players even 3 star and above want to play at HBCU's. The answer is none. Instead of watering down the system that would make D1 college tennis a sub-elite sport, why don't those who want to play in college find a place where they can play instead of focusing on going to their favorite school and being gifted a spot on the roster? Choices are out there along with scholarship money for those willing to get outside their comfort zone.

SIde Note: The NJCAA had a cap on internationals for 3 years limiting rosters to 15% internationals. They lifted it this year citing that the practice was discriminating and went against their anti-discrimination values.
 
Ole Miss has 9 players. 2 are American and one plays. I see the SE conference has more Americans then many other conferences. I watched lower level tennis (division 2). I just don't always see the appeal to watching 6 foreign players play each other in front of the few fans that would watch.
 
Ole Miss has 9 players. 2 are American and one plays. I see the SE conference has more Americans then many other conferences. I watched lower level tennis (division 2). I just don't always see the appeal to watching 6 foreign players play each other in front of the few fans that would watch.

If you think foreign players are the reason that college tennis has few fans then you're coming at this from the completely wrong direction. And it's not just tennis, there are foreign players in a ton of NCAA sports. Just like there are foreign undergrads in a lot (all?) American universities. This is a non-issue - be thankful that we're able to watch some of the best tennis players in the world compete
 
I agree Ty Tucker has done an amazing job at Ohio State. However, he's also done it with the help of some overaged, foreign, "semi-pro" players:

- Di Feo is a freshman, but turns 21 next week.
- Torpegaard is a sophomore, but turns 22 next month.
- Steinbach is a junior, but turns 24 next month.

Now, I'm not sure if these guys are going to stay all 4 years, but at this rate, they'll turn 24-25 by the time they graduate. You don't think that's an issue?

For the umpteenth time: Just because a player is listed as a freshman, it does not mean he has four years of eligibility. A lot of athletic departments do not adjust the true eligibility until later in the player's career. Peter Lucassen was a "freshman" at USC one year and a senior the next year. A year or two ago, a "junior" on the Baylor roster was one of those honored on Senior Day and was never seen again. Let's wait and see how many years these players are at Ohio State. It is not a question of whether they choose to stay four years; it is whether they even have the choice, per NCAA regulations.
 
For the umpteenth time: Just because a player is listed as a freshman, it does not mean he has four years of eligibility. A lot of athletic departments do not adjust the true eligibility until later in the player's career. Peter Lucassen was a "freshman" at USC one year and a senior the next year. A year or two ago, a "junior" on the Baylor roster was one of those honored on Senior Day and was never seen again. Let's wait and see how many years these players are at Ohio State. It is not a question of whether they choose to stay four years; it is whether they even have the choice, per NCAA regulations.


Which is why I stated, "I'm not sure if these guys are going to stay all 4 years".

DI Feo and Torpegaard are definite pro prospects, so they might choose not to stay all 4 years. Not sure about Steinbach - if he does come back next year, he'll turn 25 by the end of the season - you don't think that's an advantage? If not, then there's no debating with you.
 
Which is why I stated, "I'm not sure if these guys are going to stay all 4 years".

DI Feo and Torpegaard are definite pro prospects, so they might choose not to stay all 4 years. Not sure about Steinbach - if he does come back next year, he'll turn 25 by the end of the season - you don't think that's an advantage? If not, then there's no debating with you.

You are talking about choosing to come back, I am talking about not being allowed to come back. We will see which one happens.
 
Well, you got me there. I guess foreign players playing professionally for a year or two is the same as going on a Mormon mission?
Not the same but still an advantage.

I think having higher quality players is great for the game. It's fun to watch matches where you might see the guys playing atp tour in a few years

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We are making too much of this! I just want to have a competitive team and see good players playing. If there is a blue chip from Germany playing who may be on the ATP tour one day, I want to be able to at least say I saw them in college. Or if my team is competitive and it takes some foreign players to get there I would rather see that then some 2 and 3 star American recruits and a subpar team because they are American. Once the school uniform is on its all the same team. A 4 or 5 star American player will never get declined at a major school, especially in state as they can be on the team (public university) without using up a scholarship. It benefits coaches to go this route but many coaches don't have that option.

If recruiting were going to be so isolationist, then I would argue that football and basketball teams could only recruit players in their own states. What would that do to all the big ten schools that pluck kids out of Texas and Florida instead of Indiana and Illinois. They do this to recruit to field the best team! Lets see some good tennis. Tennis is an international sport, and being able to say you watched Kevin Anderson or Brian Becker at that level is cool.

Sorry, realize there are people who feel strongly about the American only scenario and will never see it another way. I would only add our schools should have global footprints and tennis is a good catalyst for that. Schools should field the best teams they can with who goes to the school, foreign, out of state, or in state. Until their is money making in the sport for a school it makes sense they go the best route they can for a successful program. If anything I would argue that the development of American players as Juniors could be stronger, not attack the college recruiting.

Seems like it should be the opposite. If the sport isn't making money it seems like recruiting international kids is a waste.
 
Not the same but still an advantage.

I think having higher quality players is great for the game. It's fun to watch matches where you might see the guys playing atp tour in a few years

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How is it an advantage?

Kids on Mormon missions are not out playing football all day every day like a kid trying to be a touring pro.

In fact some of those football players don't even touch a football for two years.
 
Maturity factor. Two years at 18 is huge for majority of kids. I was a better tennis player at 20 than 18 even though I hardly picked up a racquet my freshman and sophomore years

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Maturity factor. Two years at 18 is huge for majority of kids. I was a better tennis player at 20 than 18 even though I hardly picked up a racquet my freshman and sophomore years

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You really expect us to believe you were a better tennis player at 20 because you skipped two years of playing tennis?

Maybe tiaofe and fritz should just put down their racquets and they'll win the us open at 20.
 
You really expect us to believe you were a better tennis player at 20 because you skipped two years of playing tennis?

Maybe tiaofe and fritz should just put down their racquets and they'll win the us open at 20.
I was significantly better.

Obviously the same won't work for professional level players who already play at a high level, but the maturity factor is significant.

Anyways it doesn't really matter

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You really expect us to believe you were a better tennis player at 20 because you skipped two years of playing tennis?

Maybe tiaofe and fritz should just put down their racquets and they'll win the us open at 20.
Difference of being a 20 year old and 18 year old is a lot

My tennis coach is an extreme example but, at 18 he was 140 pounds and 6'1". During his freshman and sophomore year in college he grew to 6'7" and 200 pounds.

Being 20 puts you at a greater maturity in terms of physical size and strength vs an 18 year old.

Just think about every single baseball player that lied about being 2-3 years younger so they would be drafted. An 18 year old with the maturity of a 20 year old is special, no doubt 20 year olds have advantages physically.
 
Difference of being a 20 year old and 18 year old is a lot

My tennis coach is an extreme example but, at 18 he was 140 pounds and 6'1". During his freshman and sophomore year in college he grew to 6'7" and 200 pounds.

Being 20 puts you at a greater maturity in terms of physical size and strength vs an 18 year old.

Just think about every single baseball player that lied about being 2-3 years younger so they would be drafted. An 18 year old with the maturity of a 20 year old is special, no doubt 20 year olds have advantages physically.

Heck, I just read a story where Canadian Immigration Authorities arrested a guy for posing as a 6'9", 200 pound 17 year old who played on a high school basketball team. Problem is, the guy is 30! The coach of the high school thought he might even have NBA potential. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he was duped as well, but yeah, the brains and maturity of a 30 year old on what you presume to be a 17 year old body makes people think big potential.
 
Heck, I just read a story where Canadian Immigration Authorities arrested a guy for posing as a 6'9", 200 pound 17 year old who played on a high school basketball team. Problem is, the guy is 30! The coach of the high school thought he might even have NBA potential. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he was duped as well, but yeah, the brains and maturity of a 30 year old on what you presume to be a 17 year old body makes people think big potential.
lol kenya and many african soccer teams are banned or have been banned at one point for having 25+ year old soccer players on u17 teams

Brazil won the u17 world cup with a 25 year old

There was one player on an african team that was 41 and retired after his last season in u17 lmao
 
Seems like it should be the opposite. If the sport isn't making money it seems like recruiting international kids is a waste.

Not really because the thought for many coaches is that having a stronger international player can garner more wins, save a job, improve a program etc. So not a waste at all.
 
I agree Ty Tucker has done an amazing job at Ohio State. However, he's also done it with the help of some overaged, foreign, "semi-pro" players:

- Di Feo is a freshman, but turns 21 next week.
- Torpegaard is a sophomore, but turns 22 next month.
- Steinbach is a junior, but turns 24 next month.

Now, I'm not sure if these guys are going to stay all 4 years, but at this rate, they'll turn 24-25 by the time they graduate. You don't think that's an issue?

Not really. And they aren't the only ones Ole Miss is littered with them, Florida has them, Michigan, etc...Many European students are done with what we consider High School at a higher age, take gap years before considering college etc...so the fact they are older doesn't bug me. Its simply how they go to school in Europe. In countries like Germany they are 18/19 when they are finishing , instead of 17/18. Add in a gap year which most take, and they are 19/20 when starting college. For International kids the prospect of learning while playing tennis as well is enticing. Once they are done with Jr. tennis unless they can break in the top 300 quickly they are better off exploring this option. Its a great outlet for them.
 
Basketball makes money. Thousands go to see the games, because it is one of the big games...comparisons can only be made with football. There are already fans going to see the game. This is not the case in tennis. A tennis program that breaks even would set records. Why focus on a winning team when it doesn't matter one way or another? I get it potentially for a private school, but for a state funded, non-profit school, this approach does not even come close to accomplishing the mission of the institution.

Also, calling someone racist (even if in a roundabout, creative way without actually saying it) is disingenuous, and as easy as picking low hanging fruit. Smacks of a lack of substantial arguments.

Never called anyone a racist, just stated that considering the elimination of International players because they are not American is an outdated way of thinking. Racism is related to skin color, and that is impossible to infer when many international players are white European. You clearly did not read and assess my thoughts.

Additionally, the comparison to basketball was from a fan and draw perspective, and was to equate having players from different states as the same argument as different countries. I was putting the thought in perspective, but clearly people read this as literal. Not a discussion on what sports bring in to athletic departments or their material value as a sport. So, before you throw bombs on statements lacking substance I would say check your own.
 
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