Spring 2024 NCAA upsets

ClarkC

Hall of Fame
A thread to discuss men's and women's upsets that are noteworthy.

So far, on the men's side, I see Santa Clara over Cal-Berkeley and Abilene Christian over Texas Tech.
 
Those were two pretty surprising results. Santa Clara and Abilene will get a nice boost in the rankings for those through the season.

Dayton beating Purdue was another one even though Purdue isn’t that good.
 

tennisfan17

Professional
In theory you could say South Carolina Beating Virginia was an upset, but top 5 teams beating each other doesn't feel as weighty as some of these other matches.

Also San Diego Women beating Texas A&M was big
 

jcgatennismom

Hall of Fame
Dayton beating Purdue was another one even though Purdue isn’t that good.
Why isn’t Purdue better with Geoff Young as coach? Purdue has always had losses vs MMs but why can’t GY get better recruits? I’ve heard it is in the cornfields but still why would players choose MM over the chance to play vs Big10 opponents? Isn’t Purdue one of the cheaper Big 10s to attend? Does Purdue have limited scholarships?
 
I don’t think Purdue has scholarship restrictions, they’ve had international contributors before. They had a tournament level team in the early 2010s. I remember cause Clemson beat them in the 1st round of the NCAAs back in 2014. They had a Chile pipeline for a bit.
 
Why isn’t Purdue better with Geoff Young as coach? Purdue has always had losses vs MMs but why can’t GY get better recruits? I’ve heard it is in the cornfields but still why would players choose MM over the chance to play vs Big10 opponents? Isn’t Purdue one of the cheaper Big 10s to attend? Does Purdue have limited scholarships?
Woefully poor management by previous staff is the main culprit. GY has only been there a year now so needs time. Purdue has a lot of factors going for it: decent facilities, solid academics with plus engineering programs, only 2 hours away from Chicago, AD that is willing to spend. That said, it is in the middle of absolutely nowhere and in downtrodden town
 

jcgatennismom

Hall of Fame
Yeah looks like Young is already tapping into the Eastern European pipelines that he was pretty successful with at Minnesota.

(Still angry that Minnesota and Iowa overreacted and made the knee jerk reaction of cutting men’s tennis)
It’s wild to think the Gophers took the whole tennis team to Australia in Jan 2018 and 3 years later the team was cut. U of Minn has a major expansion of athletic facilities that was completed in 2018. With the pandemic, I wonder if loss of revenues and donors to pay for debt on that expansion was part of reason some nonrevenue teams were cut. It is bad enough when any teams are cut but to cut the #4 team in a P5 conference plus Iowa which was in middle weakened the conference. Big10 should do better now with a strong MSU and the addition of the two Cali teams next fall.
 

andfor

Legend
It’s wild to think the Gophers took the whole tennis team to Australia in Jan 2018 and 3 years later the team was cut. U of Minn has a major expansion of athletic facilities that was completed in 2018. With the pandemic, I wonder if loss of revenues and donors to pay for debt on that expansion was part of reason some nonrevenue teams were cut. It is bad enough when any teams are cut but to cut the #4 team in a P5 conference plus Iowa which was in middle weakened the conference. Big10 should do better now with a strong MSU and the addition of the two Cali teams next fall.
I'm a little cynical about dropping programs. My theory is the money saved was used to pay ever increasing FB and BB coaches salaries. Yeah I know, those are revenue producing sports.
 

colan5934

Professional
Woefully poor management by previous staff is the main culprit. GY has only been there a year now so needs time. Purdue has a lot of factors going for it: decent facilities, solid academics with plus engineering programs, only 2 hours away from Chicago, AD that is willing to spend. That said, it is in the middle of absolutely nowhere and in downtrodden town
This, and Geoff seems to value recruiting quality players who will contribute to the university and match his philosophy rather than JUST getting the best talent his scholarships can get. Like, yes he wants to win, but he wants a certain type of young man in the program too. Combine that with the state the program was there when he got there…it takes time. He’s a great guy and coach, so he’ll definitely get Purdue improved.
 
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colan5934

Professional
I'm a little cynical about dropping programs. My theory is the money saved was used to pay ever increasing FB and BB coaches salaries. Yeah I know, those are revenue producing sports.
Open secret: Football wanted more scholarship roster spots. Gotta get lucky and find or make a talent, and more numbers means more chances of that. Since even a top WR that’s going to be 3rd or 4th string at Alabama can go to Alabama/Auburn/OSU/Michigan and still get a great shot at a pro roster spot rather than going to Minnesota. And…title IX ratio had to be kept. Men’s tennis is a liability on the balance sheet (and the other programs they cut), thus an easy target. It’s a shame.
 
Open secret: Football wanted more scholarship roster spots. Gotta get lucky and find or make a talent, and more numbers means more chances of that. Since even a top WR that’s going to be 3rd or 4th string at Alabama can go to Alabama/Auburn/OSU/Michigan and still get a great shot at a pro roster spot rather than going to Minnesota. And…title IX ratio had to be kept. Men’s tennis is a liability on the balance sheet (and the other programs they cut), thus an easy target. It’s a shame.

I find this extremely difficult to believe due to the sheer fact that EVERY P6/5/4 football program is fully funded, in terms of scholarships. Every single program is limited to and funded to 85 scholarships, even the private schools that have not had success traditionally (e.g. Wake, Vandy)

As for men's tennis being a liability on the balance sheet, every team on campus not named football or men's basketball is a balance sheet liability. There are rare exceptions such as a select few baseball/softball and women's basketball. From what I recall, the biggest issue with Minn/Iowa men's tennis was the operating expenses; both program's tennis facility was owned by the school and not the athletic department with school charging the athletic department 200k+ a year to rent/use the facility. College coaches don't simply coach tennis; they have to fundraise as well.
 

colan5934

Professional
I find this extremely difficult to believe due to the sheer fact that EVERY P6/5/4 football program is fully funded, in terms of scholarships. Every single program is limited to and funded to 85 scholarships, even the private schools that have not had success traditionally (e.g. Wake, Vandy)

As for men's tennis being a liability on the balance sheet, every team on campus not named football or men's basketball is a balance sheet liability. There are rare exceptions such as a select few baseball/softball and women's basketball. From what I recall, the biggest issue with Minn/Iowa men's tennis was the operating expenses; both program's tennis facility was owned by the school and not the athletic department with school charging the athletic department 200k+ a year to rent/use the facility. College coaches don't simply coach tennis; they have to fundraise as well.
Yeah, but football’s roster cap increased from about 115 to 150. Title ix compliance is based on the number of men and women participating in NCAA sports. Add 35 football players? 35 other men have to go to maintain the correct ratio. Or you could add women to compensate. One option costs a lot less and is much easier.

The facility rental amount for Minnesota is public and was just under 25k per team per year in 2019 IIRC. While it’s not paltry, it’s not 200k per year.

Yes, you have to fundraise in a sport like tennis. Minnesota raised $1.3M which eclipsed their endowment fund and could have run the team for 4 years. Still got cut. Main reason was maintenance of title ix ratio after the additions to the football roster.
 

ClarkC

Hall of Fame
Yeah, but football’s roster cap increased from about 115 to 150. Title ix compliance is based on the number of men and women participating in NCAA sports. Add 35 football players? 35 other men have to go to maintain the correct ratio. Or you could add women to compensate. One option costs a lot less and is much easier.

The facility rental amount for Minnesota is public and was just under 25k per team per year in 2019 IIRC. While it’s not paltry, it’s not 200k per year.

Yes, you have to fundraise in a sport like tennis. Minnesota raised $1.3M which eclipsed their endowment fund and could have run the team for 4 years. Still got cut. Main reason was maintenance of title ix ratio after the additions to the football roster.
Minnesota football roster has 65 walk-ons and 85 scholarship players?
 

colan5934

Professional
Minnesota football roster has 65 walk-ons and 85 scholarship players?
85 full scholarships means the coaching staff gets the equivalent of cost of attendance for 85 students. But they can divide that out as necessary. It doesn’t have to be 85 full rides, though in theory it could be. Ex: A coach has 10 scholarships for 20 athletes. Let’s say all players got 50% of their tuition covered by academic and other merit scholarships. In theory, they could all get full rides by dividing the 10 scholarships coach is allocated into 20 equal parts. Is it usually this simple? No.

Also, Title IX is based on number of athletes, not whether those athletes receive scholarship.
 
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jcgatennismom

Hall of Fame
VCU stuns Mississippi State in Starkville. Wow
VCU opened spring season playing exhibition matches in Colimbia against SC, ILL, and GA. Team went 8-8 in singles including wins vs ILL Heck, Ryan Colby and Paulsell of GA,and Sarr and Daryabagi. Should be one of the better MM teams. Not sure who else is in conference, but with this start should have a good chance of making NCAAs if current guys stay healthy. Also had a competitive match vs Duke losing 3-4
 
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VCU opened spring season playing exhibition matches in Colimbia against SC, ILL, and GA. Team went 8-8 in singles including wins vs ILL Heck, Ryan Colby and Paulsell of GA,and Sarr and Daryabagi. Should be one of the better MM teams. Not sure who else is in conference, but with this start should have a good chance of making NCAAs if current guys stay healthy. Also had a competitive match vs VA losing 3-4
VCU legit; They barely lost to Duke to start the season and we saw what they did in Starkville. AZ State a good team with a very talented 1-4.

In men’s
Toledo beats Penn State 4-3
Arkansas snuck past New Mexico 4-3

I am not shocked about Toledo. I saw them on a stream and their line 1 guy can seriously play. If he gets into the NCAA tournament, I can see him making some noise
 

ClarkC

Hall of Fame
85 full scholarships means the coaching staff gets the equivalent of cost of attendance for 85 students. But they can divide that out as necessary. It doesn’t have to be 85 full rides, though in theory it could be. Ex: A coach has 10 scholarships for 20 athletes. Let’s say all players got 50% of their tuition covered by academic and other merit scholarships. In theory, they could all get full rides by dividing the 10 scholarships coach is allocated into 20 equal parts. Is it usually this simple? No.

Also, Title IX is based on number of athletes, not whether those athletes receive scholarship.
Wrong. Some NCAA sports are "equivalency" sports where, as you described, two half scholarships make the equivalent of one full scholarship.

A few NCAA sports are "head count" sports where a maximum of N athletes can get any scholarship money at all. In those sports, if you give out half scholarships to N athletes, you are maxed out, and competing with teams that gave out N full scholarships, so that will not go well for you.

Football is a head count sport (N=85). So is women's tennis (N=8). Men's tennis is an equivalency sport with 4.5 scholarships; divide them up however you want.

So, everything you wrote about Minnesota cutting tennis to "get more scholarships for football" was incorrect.
 

ClarkC

Hall of Fame
VCU opened spring season playing exhibition matches in Colimbia against SC, ILL, and GA. Team went 8-8 in singles including wins vs ILL Heck, Ryan Colby and Paulsell of GA,and Sarr and Daryabagi. Should be one of the better MM teams. Not sure who else is in conference, but with this start should have a good chance of making NCAAs if current guys stay healthy. Also had a competitive match vs VA losing 3-4
I don't see VCU and UVA on each others' schedules so far.
 

tennisfan17

Professional
VCU legit; They barely lost to Duke to start the season and we saw what they did in Starkville. AZ State a good team with a very talented 1-4.



I am not shocked about Toledo. I saw them on a stream and their line 1 guy can seriously play. If he gets into the NCAA tournament, I can see him making some noise
Use to know a guy who played for GSU then went to VCU. The team is always frisky and can cause some upsets this season. Sadly didn't get to see the stream for Toldeo
 

andfor

Legend
Memphis (W) def. Ole Miss 4-2. First time I recall in my 30 years of following this match up that Memphis has won.
 

colan5934

Professional
Wrong. Some NCAA sports are "equivalency" sports where, as you described, two half scholarships make the equivalent of one full scholarship.

A few NCAA sports are "head count" sports where a maximum of N athletes can get any scholarship money at all. In those sports, if you give out half scholarships to N athletes, you are maxed out, and competing with teams that gave out N full scholarships, so that will not go well for you.

Football is a head count sport (N=85). So is women's tennis (N=8). Men's tennis is an equivalency sport with 4.5 scholarships; divide them up however you want.

So, everything you wrote about Minnesota cutting tennis to "get more scholarships for football" was incorrect.
Ah, I see I learned something today. Thanks for clearing that up.

However, I did not claim "more scholarships for football." I referred to more roster spots/participating athletes. "Scholarship roster spots" should have been said as "scholarship-eligible roster spots" because athletes generally receive scholarship proportionally to their participation, but either is a bit redundant and could have just been phrased as "roster spots" or "participants" to avoid confusion.

Anyway, Title IX compliance can be determined by a couple of different things. First, total scholarship given to athletes is proportional men:women (ex: $1M in total scholarship given, 40% of athletes are women, men's sports get $600k, women's get 400k). Second, opportunity for participation in athletics (available roster spots - by nature these are scholarship eligible) is proportional to the population of the university (ex: 60% of students are women, 60% of available spots should be for women's sports). So, when football adds 35 roster spots - regardless if whether they receive scholarship or not - you either add 35 women's spots or cut 35 men's spots. Which one is easier? Cutting men's sports. Point still stands.
 

Doubles

Legend
VCU legit; They barely lost to Duke to start the season and we saw what they did in Starkville. AZ State a good team with a very talented 1-4.



I am not shocked about Toledo. I saw them on a stream and their line 1 guy can seriously play. If he gets into the NCAA tournament, I can see him making some noise
He is very good. UT has had a handful of good #1's in the last decade (regardless of how good the team is, the #1 was often one of, if not the best player in the MAC) but this guy is probably the best.
 
Ah, I see I learned something today. Thanks for clearing that up.

However, I did not claim "more scholarships for football." I referred to more roster spots/participating athletes. "Scholarship roster spots" should have been said as "scholarship-eligible roster spots" because athletes generally receive scholarship proportionally to their participation, but either is a bit redundant and could have just been phrased as "roster spots" or "participants" to avoid confusion.

Anyway, Title IX compliance can be determined by a couple of different things. First, total scholarship given to athletes is proportional men:women (ex: $1M in total scholarship given, 40% of athletes are women, men's sports get $600k, women's get 400k). Second, opportunity for participation in athletics (available roster spots - by nature these are scholarship eligible) is proportional to the population of the university (ex: 60% of students are women, 60% of available spots should be for women's sports). So, when football adds 35 roster spots - regardless if whether they receive scholarship or not - you either add 35 women's spots or cut 35 men's spots. Which one is easier? Cutting men's sports. Point still stands.

Minnesota and Iowa both have wrestling which uses a lot of men's scholarships. Missouri has it as well which is why they are the only SEC school without men's tennis.

Some of these schools have to change because of demographic changes at the school with title IX as you mentioned. This happened at Clemson recently with the student body shifting to majority women (like 55%) for the first time when it had been like 55% male or more for a lot of its history (military school history). But you know how Clemson responded? Not by cutting men's sports but rather adding softball, women's lacrosse and gymnastics, all of which have been a resounding success so far.
 

colan5934

Professional
Minnesota and Iowa both have wrestling which uses a lot of men's scholarships. Missouri has it as well which is why they are the only SEC school without men's tennis.

Some of these schools have to change because of demographic changes at the school with title IX as you mentioned. This happened at Clemson recently with the student body shifting to majority women (like 55%) for the first time when it had been like 55% male or more for a lot of its history (military school history). But you know how Clemson responded? Not by cutting men's sports but rather adding softball, women's lacrosse and gymnastics, all of which have been a resounding success so far.
Yep. That would have been a great decision for Minnesota to make. Losing the men’s team is a big blow to tennis in the area. The women’s team seems to get worse by the year since Merzbacher left, but I don’t know what they’re looking like this year.

I don’t know all the numbers, but the narrative is that the school basically said “screw the $1.3M you raised we won’t make the title IX numbers work” to the tennis team. How much of that is true versus it being too hard logistically and/or too risky financially, I’m not sure.
 

jhick

Hall of Fame
Yeah, but football’s roster cap increased from about 115 to 150. Title ix compliance is based on the number of men and women participating in NCAA sports. Add 35 football players? 35 other men have to go to maintain the correct ratio. Or you could add women to compensate. One option costs a lot less and is much easier.
This is the biggest beef I have with title IX. There is no womens sports that compete with football in terms of numbers. So cutting sports like tennis does not really change the bottom line. It's more of a way for colleges to make a statement that they are addressing it. Unfortunately my college men's tennis team was cut after my junior year due to title IX.
 

andfor

Legend
Yep. That would have been a great decision for Minnesota to make. Losing the men’s team is a big blow to tennis in the area. The women’s team seems to get worse by the year since Merzbacher left, but I don’t know what they’re looking like this year.

I don’t know all the numbers, but the narrative is that the school basically said “screw the $1.3M you raised we won’t make the title IX numbers work” to the tennis team. How much of that is true versus it being too hard logistically and/or too risky financially, I’m not sure.
Yeah, I thought St. Thomas would come to the rescue in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area after moving from DIII to DI, when they did they cut the men's tennis team. Another title IX disaster.
 
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colan5934

Professional
This is the biggest beef I have with title IX. There is no womens sports that compete with football in terms of numbers. So cutting sports like tennis does not really change the bottom line. It's more of a way for colleges to make a statement that they are addressing it. Unfortunately my college men's tennis team was cut after my junior year due to title IX.
Yeah, it's a shame. Minnesota was blindsided too. Of course it comes down to numbers, but those guys on the tennis team certainly contributed more to the university than many of the football players riding the bench do. Geoff did a great job getting solid transfers and offers for the guys that wanted it at least. Glad he found a head coaching spot in Purdue too.
 

colan5934

Professional
Yeah, I thought St. Thomas would come to the rescue in the Minneapolis/St. Paul after moving from DIII to DI, when they did they cut the men's tennis team. Another title IX disaster.
Their men's team was pretty bad in an average-at-best conference. Sure the MIAC has a couple solid d3 teams, but the rest aren't very good. Moving D1 would be starting from scratch, basically, even if they hadn't been cut. None of the guys were good enough to compete regularly with schools in the D1 conference they entered. Women kind of were competitive, but I think they only won a handful of duals.
 
Yeah, it's a shame. Minnesota was blindsided too. Of course it comes down to numbers, but those guys on the tennis team certainly contributed more to the university than many of the football players riding the bench do. Geoff did a great job getting solid transfers and offers for the guys that wanted it at least. Glad he found a head coaching spot in Purdue too.

Yeah I mean they made the sweet 16 in 2018 after beating Georgia. That’s more recent success than all of their other men’s sports except hockey. Been a long time since their football or basketball had a top 16 season.

So it’s not like it was a bottom of the barrel sport. There are plenty worse programs in the Big Ten that I could more easily see being targets of a cut.
 
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colan5934

Professional
Yeah I mean they made the sweet 16 in 2018 after beating Georgia. That’s more recent success than all of their other men’s sports except hockey. Been a long time since their football or basketball had a top 16 season.

So it’s not like it was a bottom of the barrel sport. There are plenty worse programs in the Big Ten that I could more easily see being targets of a cut.
Yeah the team was pretty successful for sure. Won the big10 tournament one year semi-recently also. 2015 I think with Toledo, Corwin, Spec, etc. All those guys had game. The team was competitive since too
 

ClarkC

Hall of Fame
Ah, I see I learned something today. Thanks for clearing that up.

However, I did not claim "more scholarships for football." I referred to more roster spots/participating athletes. "Scholarship roster spots" should have been said as "scholarship-eligible roster spots" because athletes generally receive scholarship proportionally to their participation, but either is a bit redundant and could have just been phrased as "roster spots" or "participants" to avoid confusion.

Anyway, Title IX compliance can be determined by a couple of different things. First, total scholarship given to athletes is proportional men:women (ex: $1M in total scholarship given, 40% of athletes are women, men's sports get $600k, women's get 400k). Second, opportunity for participation in athletics (available roster spots - by nature these are scholarship eligible) is proportional to the population of the university (ex: 60% of students are women, 60% of available spots should be for women's sports). So, when football adds 35 roster spots - regardless if whether they receive scholarship or not - you either add 35 women's spots or cut 35 men's spots. Which one is easier? Cutting men's sports. Point still stands.
Point still stands, except Minnesota has 101 players on their football roster, which is the same as just about everyone else. Can it be documented to be more than it used to be? All this business about adding 35 roster spots, having 130 on the football team, etc., is disconnected from reality.
 

colan5934

Professional
We’d hope the spots would be used…if they’re not there isn’t much that can be done but shake our heads. Once classes begin, there’s a cap of 125 for the active roster and no cap for participants imposed by the ncaa. The school can set participant size as well to control budget and/or comply with title ix. Remember this decision was made during Covid as well. The ncaa allowed covid-year seniors to not count against the 85 scholarships if they returned, further adding to the roster size in 2021 and 2022. Did Minnesota use this whole combo of things to cut tennis and other men’s sports? Yes. Is it right? I certainly don’t think so. Was this all that was at play? No, probably not. But football and title ix pushed this along and made it possible. You’re free to believe what you want though. No matter what the reason, there’s no more Gopher men’s team which sucks.
 
Nc State with a 4-3 win today over #2 South Carolina
Gamecocks still not using Connor Thomson and James Story in singles

San Diego defeats #10 Arizona 4-3

Illinois knocks off #8 Duke 5-2
 

Sureshot

Hall of Fame
Miami Women upend the A&M. Great win for the Canes and terrible loss for the Aggies. Now distances the field from UNC, Stanford and Georgia
 

Sureshot

Hall of Fame
So far into the season, Ohio State is the cream of the crop. Texas looked vulnerable against #15 Stanford. And UVA isn’t very deep without Rodesch and Montes, having just lost to #16 Kentucky after getting bagled by Ohio St. I guess TCU could lay claim to being the best of the rest behind the Buckeyes.
 
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San Diego beat both Arizona and Arizona State 4-3. Shame they won't be playing at the indoors. Would be fun to see them there. They could actually be better than USC, who did not look super against SMU or UNLV and is definitely a candidate to go 0-3 in New York. Too bad USD dropped that match in a 4-3 squeaker.
 

Sureshot

Hall of Fame
San Diego beat both Arizona and Arizona State 4-3. Shame they won't be playing at the indoors. Would be fun to see them there. They could actually be better than USC, who did not look super against SMU or UNLV and is definitely a candidate to go 0-3 in New York. Too bad USD dropped that match in a 4-3 squeaker.
Agree. And Oliver Tarvet is a dark horse for the NCAA singles title. Has wins over Cassone, Dostanic and Colton Smith so far and am sure will keep piling them up. Haven’t watched him play but he has had success in the pros too having won a title recently.
 
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