He shouldn't pay a penny in taxes, by either living in Monte Carlo, or just getting a tax guy, with all his expenses, he wouldn't pay a penny in taxes, of course I'm speaking from a US point of view, not sure how the tax system is in wherever, the Ukraine, but if it's bad, then Monte Carlo could save him big bucks.
Stakhovsky: I am in the Negative
- Thread starter OddJack
- Start date
He shouldn't pay a penny in taxes, by either living in Monte Carlo, or just getting a tax guy, with all his expenses, he wouldn't pay a penny in taxes, of course I'm speaking from a US point of view, not sure how the tax system is in wherever, the Ukraine, but if it's bad, then Monte Carlo could save him big bucks.
I've seen that movie too.
Blinkism
Legend
Paying coach and trainers, travel/health insurance, clothes (for certain unsponsored pro's), and sports supplements and don't forget that they must maintain some sort of balanced diet and that costs more money than your average diet (especially when you're most likely eating in hotel restaurants).
Evan77
Banned
I get your point, but disagree with you. They all have equal opportunities regardless where they were born. If you are good at whatever you are doing (in this case tennis) money will follow. Look at Djokovic, who was born in a little European country with almost no tennis history ... so he has managed to succeed and he is worth something like over $60 millions. sure I know he is #1 etc. but it's possible.
I do agree that lower ranked players should get paid more, no question. Djokovic, Nadal of Federer don't even need any prize money any more... they are tennis stars and they make more money from their respective sponsors than playing the tour.
The problem is when you are not a top dog, sponsors really don't care. It's all about business. Why would they invest money in someone who can't deliver and promote their product?
I also agree with guys above that Stakhovsky should tone it down with his statement that 'it's bellow him' to be a tennis trainer etc. It's not like he is a multiple GS winner ... he won nothing important in his life. so yeah, he should stop b!tching, try to improve his game or retire and become a tennis player in order to support his family. Nothing wrong with that.
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Spin Doctor
Professional
In order to establish residency in Monaco you need to buy a residence which costs millions over there. So you have to generate quite a bit of income to make it worthwhile or even to afford to "live" there to begin with. As for finding a tax guy to avoid taxes entirely, it just doesn't work that way unless your tax guy is dishonest.
Back to the article. I found it really interesting. But yeah, hard to sympathize with someone who can net $500k at 30 years old doing something he loves. Even at 30 he can still go back to school and learn a profession. He talks like teaching tennis is his only option after his pro career is over.
Also, it seems like he's taking on quite a bit of expenses for a guy ranked #70. Couldn't he save money by leaving his coach and trainer at home for certain tournaments? Back in the "old days" even the top pros didn't have trainers and physios going with them to tournaments. I agree that money should be distributed fairly but there was a sense of entitlement from him that I didn't like.
I watch, or I used to watch a lot of NHL hockey. Guys in the minors, who are hacks, make more than the 70th ranked tennis player in the world. As I have said to anyone who is willing to listen around here. If you really hate your kid, put him into tennis with the intention of being a PLAYING tennis pro.
Its a **** life, I did it myself. And I quickly learned that drifting a bit lower than where you should be ranked, but enjoying the overall traveling and networking was a LOT more important than killing yourself to get ten or fifteen spots higher and seeing nothing of the overall experience.
Its why I liked the careers of guys like Marat Safin afterwards. Guys who had girls all over the globe, and who obviously spent time outside of the tennis courts.
And the guy is what now? A politician? Most likely because he is a global warrior. Who took the time to meet people and fraternize.
Its a **** life, I did it myself. And I quickly learned that drifting a bit lower than where you should be ranked, but enjoying the overall traveling and networking was a LOT more important than killing yourself to get ten or fifteen spots higher and seeing nothing of the overall experience.
Its why I liked the careers of guys like Marat Safin afterwards. Guys who had girls all over the globe, and who obviously spent time outside of the tennis courts.
And the guy is what now? A politician? Most likely because he is a global warrior. Who took the time to meet people and fraternize.
Spin Doctor
Professional
You make it sound like the other top pros are not enjoying life. Fed, Djoker and Nadal etc. all look like they are doing things outside tennis and meeting people. Some pros are even taking college level courses in their downtime at home.
bluetrain4
G.O.A.T.
Golf is a pretty interesting comparison. Looking at the PGA 2011 money list:
101 players made a $1 million or more, and the top player on the list made $6.6 million.
158 players made $500k or more.
218 players made $200k or more.
267 players made $100k or more.
Plus, there are many additional (though not as many) players at each level for the European Tour, and even the Japan Tour.
Tennis in 2011:
Only 25 players made $1 million or more (though the highest earner, Djokovic at $11 million was higher than golf) (this includes singles and doubles)
57 players made $500k more more
139 players made $200k or more
200 players made $100k or more.
And, I'm assuming that expenses, for the most part for golf, are considerably less than tennis. A lot of travel for the PGA is within the United States (some players could probably even drive to certain events), not a lot of expensive overseas travels. And, the players who are traveling the globe to play World Golf events or European Tour events are some of the best compensated players.
IvanisevicServe
Banned
More of this "Rafa works harder than Federer" BS.
Having bigger muscles doesn't mean you're a harder worker in tennis.
Having bigger muscles doesn't mean you're a harder worker in tennis.
Paul Murphy
Hall of Fame
Great to see someone speaking their mind for a change.
His comments on the court speeds in particular are spot on.
His comments on the court speeds in particular are spot on.
Fedalfan
Semi-Pro
You missed out on the taxes. On the $120K, he'd have paid ~36K in taxes. And then he had to spend $90K in order to play tennis & compete. That puts him in the negative.
jakemcclain32
Banned
Nothing wrong with that.
Netzroller
Semi-Pro
Well, yes and no.
I think there is one difference: You go to college/med school etc. to become a teacher/doctor. That's exactly what you're aiming for, it's what you wanted to do from the very beginning.
The tennis player on the other hand wanted to be a professional, compete with the best, test his limits, win tournaments etc. But if that doesn't work out, they can't do what they originally wanted but have to resort to teaching. This is a very different job than being a pro. I could understand that someone who had the ambition of winning tournaments in front of big crowds won't be happy with teaching kids how to hit forehands.
I'm not saying that teaching is bad but other than the surgeon or teacher it was not what they dreamed of.
As for the janitor, I really don't think you can compare somone who has worked very hard for many years of his life and is one of the best one the planet in his profession to a job that (no offense) requires hardly any training and that millions of people could do.
Yeah, but then you're over 30, have no degree, maybe not even highschool, no job experience whatsoever, all you know is how to hit a yellow ball very hard. This doesn't seem very promising on the job market.
Moreover, most people only have a limited range of skills. Somone who is a very good athlete is usually not also an outstanding computer expert etc. And doing something entirely different from what you have done the last 32 years of your life can be a very difficult transition, people with normal jobs usually don't experience.
Then the good jobs (broadcasting etc.) are mostly available to the people who are already famous and have enough money.
I'm not saying they all should have enough money to never worry again. But I think dedicating your entire childhood and teenage years into the sport so you become on of the best in the world that is something that should be rewarded.
joechiang
New User
Slice&Smash
Rookie
100 $ hotel rooms? You expect him to stay at the StinkyPlaza? Hotel costs are easily in the range of US$ 300 / room / night in the ME and Europe.
And 50$ for food? KFC and Burger King for a pro athlete?
What about transportation, drink, and escort entertainment? :mrgreen:
Slice&Smash
Rookie
He should get a clever accountant, establish a business entity, and register his yearly costs as tax-deductible business expenses. :twisted:
jakemcclain32
Banned
Anyone with money knowledge knows how to legally pay less taxes. Stak obviously has no money knowledge at all.
ben123
Professional
yup but you know your talking is senseless ^^ the majority doesnt understand and talking is a waste of time. im not specifically speaking about this quoted topic but the whole world
jakemcclain32
Banned
Have a wrestler friend on the indy scene. He buys four or five pouches of tuna, some rice, and some veggies. He eats out once that night when he travels, and the rest of the time, he makes something up from that. There are other combinations or foods, but he finds ways to eat healthy on the road without eating out.
There's always more than one way to skin a cat, including saving money.
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Ollinger played the plumber in jeans which were sliding down with all the tool weight and showing his butt
No, your guy just has to know what he is doing. If my business costs me almost as much as I make, and I have mortgage payment, head of household, etc., then in the US he wouldn't be paying 30% in taxes, it'd be little to nothing. As for Monaco, I don't sell real estate their, however I find it hard to believe EVERY piece of real estate their costs millions.
robow7
Professional
If he thinks that his situation is bad, he should see what the 100th ranked cyclists makes in a year and that's putting in 18,000-20,000 miles riding a year and putting your life on the line when you're riding down a mountain side at 60 mph while having your life depend on less than 1 inch of rubber on the road.
jackson vile
G.O.A.T.
It is great to hear someone that is at least honest. Federer really ****** this up really bad, all the players in the negative have him to thank. What does he care, he is getting paid millions.
Looks like Nadal was correct, and his detractors once again look like ignorant fools. Also we see what happens when you put a wimp in charge, all the players get ******. Great job *********.
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rufus_smith
Professional
One issue that men's tennis has that few other sports have is that the popularity of the WTA. Not many professional sports have a vibrant woman's competing tour that get a large share of the tournament money. So in effect a man ranked 100 on the ATP may really be ranked 200 in terms of ability to get prize money since there may be as much as 100 other men and 100 women that are going after the same money pool.
In golf the LPGA is not much of a factor.
I still think being a top 100 ATP player is a fantastic career.
In golf the LPGA is not much of a factor.
I still think being a top 100 ATP player is a fantastic career.
Yes that is a good point. Men have been having it easy for too long. Now they have to learn to compete harder.
Nadal is by the people, of the people and for the people.
That is why I have said before that society needs to come up with salaries and pension schemes for these people. They need to unionize. In the old days, the King used to take care of them. Of course if they did not perform well when he was watching, he would cut off their head, but that is a small price to pay for stability of income. In a pure capitalistic framework, athletes have to depend on sponsors.
I have read that in China, the local governments recycle retired athletes in sports management positions. Promise of stability in the future is one of the reasons for China walking off with most of the Olympics golds. It shows how a planned centrally coordinated government strategy can win over pure capitalistic frameworks. And they are winning in science and technology too. All these are just ideologies not laws of physics and they only work till they work.
Now back to the point. It is true that a surgeon can do what he wanted to do, but at what cost??? What about paying off the loans? One botched surgery and his career could be over - he could even be in prison. The tennis pro can do no worse that mishit the ball.
And what does the surgeon do once he/she has established himself? Join a tennis club and take lessons from the pro and play on weekends! I know one cosmetic surgeon and one cardiothoracic surgeon who are in this group. The tennis pro at age 50 I am sure is not dreaming of a weekend when he can get away from tennis and do some surgery.
jakemcclain32
Banned
Sorry...Fed's right here. I'm not going to mince words with this.
jackson vile
G.O.A.T.
You do realize that Federer agrees with Nadal right?
zagor
Bionic Poster
This post is just pure awesomeness.
Spin Doctor
Professional
....................
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Crisstti
Legend
Exactly. I mean, he hasn't won anything important and he's making money off doing something he (one would think at least) loves.
Yeah.
I have to wonder how much work some of the relatively lower ranked players really put into their careers... don't mean to offend anyone, I'm sure a lot of people do their best, but one sees guys like Fish and Tipsarevic, who happen to clearly put on more work into what they do compared to before, and what do you know, they become top 10 players.
norcal
Legend
A small point regarding housing (this was 5 years ago, may have changed), guys in the main singles draw get free hotel Sun - Friday (and the weekend if they are still playing) and there is plenty of free food at the tourney site if they want to go that route.
The doubles players get hotel rooms free until they lose, then they would (usually) double up with a team still in the tourney and stay in their room. My cousin coached on the meat and potato end of the atp tour till he had to get a real job, lol.
The doubles players get hotel rooms free until they lose, then they would (usually) double up with a team still in the tourney and stay in their room. My cousin coached on the meat and potato end of the atp tour till he had to get a real job, lol.
Timbo's hopeless slice
Hall of Fame
this is from a different thread, but have a look at the comparison between golf and tennis.
btw, it is so obvious how many of you are armchair tennis players who have never even aspired to making it a career!
btw, it is so obvious how many of you are armchair tennis players who have never even aspired to making it a career!
Couldn't agree more. It's his own choice to play tennis on a professional level, if he doesn't like it he can do something else like the rest of us. He shouldn't talk like he is better in any way than other normal people.
I still think that the prize money should be distributed more evenly, it must suck to be the 50th best tennis player in the world and see those guys that are just a little bit, but still significantly, better than you make so much more money than you.
10is
Professional
You are misinformed -- Federer vehemently disagrees with Nadal's self-serving notions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae6G__1XqrQ
Semi-Pro
Hall of Fame
Stakhovsky has career prize money of over 2.3MILLION. including 140,000$ just from this year. how can someone be in the negative unless they are living some sort of extreme luxurious lifestyle? with the proper investments he should be living just fine. not to mention he is only 26 years of age so he still has time. this doesn't even include sponsors.
perhaps he just needs to learn how to prioritize his money...
perhaps he just needs to learn how to prioritize his money...
That must be pre tax. Then what about his expenses?
dParis
Hall of Fame
Interesting to see how little of the Grand Slam profit goes to prize money. On the surface, it appears that the players could do a better job of claiming a larger piece of that pie. Then again, I don't know what the USTA uses the rest of the "profit" for.
Why are people in this discussion subtracting expenses for the tennis pros but assume the PGA prize money is free and clear. Don't PGA touring pros have expenses too?
Finally, who is Stakhovsky? Sounds like someone who should spend 6 months bagging groceries at a Kiev supermarket for a little perspective. He's 26 and he's made $2.3mil? The biggest group of people who ever heard of this guy outside of his family and home town, work for the ATP. Next biggest group is probably members here at TT, then - the casual tennis fan. All told, you could probably fit everyone in the average high school gymnasium. After the casual tennis fan, you could fit the rest of the people who have heard of this guy in a Volkswagen. Did someone edit out the part of the interview where he thanks his lucky stars?
Why are people in this discussion subtracting expenses for the tennis pros but assume the PGA prize money is free and clear. Don't PGA touring pros have expenses too?
Finally, who is Stakhovsky? Sounds like someone who should spend 6 months bagging groceries at a Kiev supermarket for a little perspective. He's 26 and he's made $2.3mil? The biggest group of people who ever heard of this guy outside of his family and home town, work for the ATP. Next biggest group is probably members here at TT, then - the casual tennis fan. All told, you could probably fit everyone in the average high school gymnasium. After the casual tennis fan, you could fit the rest of the people who have heard of this guy in a Volkswagen. Did someone edit out the part of the interview where he thanks his lucky stars?
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cork_screw
Hall of Fame
Good post buddy. I think the airlines should really give all atp players a special comp deal to give them a substantial discount since they do guaranteed flights year round. I mean no matter what certain players are going to go to certain events and that is guaranteed money in the pocket for airlines. It's not like booking a vacation and they shouldn't be paying the same as a person like you or me because it is necessary as it is their responsibility to be there because it is their occupation. I actually think the ATP body should organize this for the players. All players should have this as it is mandatory that it is their job to make appointments to these events and it is considered a business expense. I believe flights is the most costly, but room and board is probably a nightmare considering most of the events are in high profile cities that charge a killing on hotels that are targeted for tourists, this is even more compounded seeing as how tennis season parallels tourist season which is the most expensive time to travel and book flights and hotels. I think it's more of something that has just been routine and everybody is used to it where they don't really challenge or try to embrace a change.
Larrysümmers
Hall of Fame
its like playing in the minor leagues lol
Don Felder
Semi-Pro
I started my career making low 6 figures at 25 (good money for that age in most situations, no doubt), and (before taxes) I'd be making a little over $4 million if I made that exact same money for 40 years. So, on one hand, I do think $2.3 million is a lot of career prize money to have made by 26.
But expenses (and taxes) do eat away at your earnings pretty quickly when you are living the lifestyle these guys are forced to live by their touring. So I don't think $2.3 million is nearly as much money as you think.
I don't pretend to know the intricate details of financing an ATP touring pro's career. Obviously, some of them pay less for travel, costs, clothing, racquets etc. than others. And it's not always dependent on what you're ranked (sponsorships, certain countries pay etc). But one thing's for sure: it's a lot worse of a situation than say, being a minor league AAA baseball player trying to develop your game.
And this is all stuff I intuitively knew when I was in high school. Trying to go pro in tennis is probably one of the worst ideas there is. There are no signing bonuses, no guaranteed contracts, no built-in coaching (that you don't pay for), noone paying for meals/travel etc. It's definitely a tough life, but one that you can anticipate before deciding to go pro.
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Crisstti
Legend
Doesn't the ATP pay for the hotels?.
It is an awesome quote, although I think the spirit of his comments were directed at setting his kids up for having options beyond tennis - so if the best case scenario for his kids was to end up like him (admittedly not a terrible spot to be in) and more than likely end up less than that (club pro - also not a horrible job) that he'd just as soon not push them in the direction of tennis.
$130k a year is decent, but after health insurance, life insurance, mortgage, etc plus tour expenses, it's not a huge sum by any means. Better than many yes, but still firmly entrenched in a middle class (US standards) income at well over a 40 hr/week work schedule in a dog-eat dog atmosphere day in day out. What happens when one is injured - sick, unsuccessful and has to play futures and challengers in Bangladesh? These guys and gals earn every penny.
130k a year is well within the top 10% of the United States. Don't talk nonsense please. That means he makes more than 90% of American HOUSEHOLDS (I utilized House Hold Incomes). Yes, he has alot of expenses, more than other households, but he's also making a crap ton more money than most people do on an individual basis.
And if we're just talking about INDIVIDUAL income, his individual income is top 10 easily. And you have to remember, that most people do not make 100k in the U.S., and those that do come out with a mountain of debt in the first place, on top of their own bills. Stakhovsky does get the benefit of being a sort of recognized player, so he gets some of his expenses paid, and he never starts out with debt like most College grads do.
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If a person in the US made $130,000 and had to sponsor their own benefits, retirement, etc, this would translate into a much lower number than a job with a company who offered the same benefits to employees + salary. I work for the Gov and my package with benefits looks impressive, even if my salary is in the middle 5 figures, so it's not like he's rolling in it - I also never said it was a meager income - just middle of the road for the States - there's a lot of folks making 40-60K/year +benefits, so he's not going to starve to death by any means, but he's not Warren Buffet either. Do you have a job? His 130K adds up to a middle of the road college prof with 15 years experience...roughly.
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