Stan Exposed Rafa's weakness.

[Alchemist]

First thing I want to request to all of you don't target Rafa now in this thread.
This thread aims neutral discussion considering Tactics in Tennis ( Mental and Physical Too )

This is not first time someone exposed Rafa's Weakness.
At start Djokovic did that dethroning Nadal 7 times in Row.
But What Djokovic did-
1)He was extremely mentally tough during spaN OF 2011-2012 (Upto RG )

2) He responded Rafa's counter punching with his 'Aggressive Baseline' Tactics but It was collision of same Tactics. That's the reason he needed 6 hrs.to oust Rafa in pet slam.

3)His other strategy was always hit middle of the court with ( FH to Rafa's BH) except one 'Counter puch' with extreme angle and pace on it. Hitting ball carner to corner with great pace is worst strategy against Rafa,it initiates his game of extreme grinding and opponent makes errors ( That Federer usually does and gets frustrated )
Obviously you need to be extremely patient and consistent with your Ground strokes. ( Which Federer never does ).

4) Having at least good backhand is essential.

Now I'll try to explain what stan Exposed-

1) Rafa is hopeless against big hitters who having capability to hit consistently without making much errors. His loss against JMDP at Shanghai,
Famous Rosol Loss at Wimbledon Soderling loss,proves this point
Rafa just don't have enough tactics or talent to stop consistent hitters with mental strength. Federer can able to do the that because of tremendous variety in his game ( Which Rafa can Dream For ).
If his main weapon ( Forehand to Backhand ), stops working then he's \
hopeless In my opinion

2) Believe me Stan , JMDP have the game to straight set Rafa at any slam except RG but capable of beating him at RG. If they shows consistency in future then don't except much From Rafa in future.

3)Djokovic was temporary solution for Rafa now Stan and JMDP have the game to outclass him completely on regular basis in slams.

 

[zacinnc78]

no offense (and i cant stand Cheatdal )but,i think ALL players have trouble with someone consistently hitting big shots with few errors lol

 

[tipsa...don'tlikehim!]

Basically, Stan was playing in the 1st set like Del Potro was in Shanghai.
Agressive and missing nothing. Or Tsonga in 2008.
This way you beat Nadal on hardcourt.

 

[90's Clay]

He didn't expose anything. Rafa was OBVIOUSLY injured which resulted in taking all of his movement and reaction time away.

It reminded of the Del Potro match in 2009 when Nadal could barely move. So Delpo's grounds and serve looked unreturnable.


Nadal healthy, Nadal wins in straights. 7-6, 6-4-,6-2

 

[spinovic]

Every player is exposed when they play someone who can outhit them when that player isn't missing. That is hard to do for an extended period and probably harder the bigger the moment.

 

[hoodjem]

I didn't see it, so was it like Soderling at RG 2009?

 

[Alchemist]

He didn't expose anything. Rafa was OBVIOUSLY injured which resulted in taking all of his movement and reaction time away.

It reminded of the Del Potro match in 2009 when Nadal could barely move. So Delpo's grounds and serve looked unreturnable.


Nadal healthy, Nadal wins in straights. 7-6, 6-4-,6-2

Great and Innocent post by 90's clay :lol:
Sampras fans defending Nadal,worst thing I've ever seen as truly opposite playing style IMHO.

 

[SLD76]

I understand what the OP mean. When Rafa faces a guy with a good, consistent and more importantly *powerful* bh...he really has no other option. He can try and play aggressive, but it can backfire if the opponent gets to the ball and returns it with interest.

he can go defensive, but that gives the other guy more time to set up shots to bludgeon him.

Its why guys like Blake, Delpo, Soderling, Berdych, Rosol have notched victories against him.

To be able to beat him regularly you need all of what I said, plus extreme fitness to hang in the long rallies, which is why Djokervic and delpo have multiple wins against him.

Djokervic isnt the biggest hitter, but he uses his legs and defense to create opportunity. plus his bh is world class and a weapon. he can change direction and go dtl, which is essential against Nadal.

Time will tell if this is a one off for Stan or his new standard. But I knew with his rock solid and powerful bh, it would be a problem for Nadal. And some of the bhs stan hit to nadal's fh , it was all nadal could handle, and thats saying something. he rarely gets overpowered on the FH side.

 

[Alchemist]

I understand what the OP mean. When Rafa faces a guy with a good, consistent and more importantly *powerful* bh...he really has no other option. He can try and play aggressive, but it can backfire if the opponent gets to the ball and returns it with interest.

he can go defensive, but that gives the other guy more time to set up shots to bludgeon him.

Its why guys like Blake, Delpo, Soderling, Berdych, Rosol have notched victories against him.

To be able to beat him regularly you need all of what I said, plus extreme fitness to hang in the long rallies, which is why Djokervic and delpo have multiple wins against him.

Djokervic isnt the biggest hitter, but he uses his legs and defense to create opportunity. plus his bh is world class and a weapon. he can change direction and go dtl, which is essential against Nadal.

Time will tell if this is a one off for Stan or his new standard. But I knew with his rock solid and powerful bh, it would be a problem for Nadal. And some of the bhs stan hit to nadal's fh , it was all nadal could handle, and thats saying something. he rarely gets overpowered on the FH side.

Great post and thanks for contribution
and You can add Davydenko in this also

 

[SLD76]

Great post and thanks for contribution
and You can add Davydenko in this also

too true, davydenko owned him on HC. Still remember what was it, doha? where he rickrolled Rafa. and again, davydenko was fit, good mover, good counterpuncher, with world class bh.

 

[Alchemist]

no offense (and i cant stand Cheatdal )but,i think ALL players have trouble with someone consistently hitting big shots with few errors lol

Federer can handle 'Big Hitters' pretty easily than anyone on planet,let alone Nadal.His wins over Potro ( Shanghai,Paris ) and Tsonga ( AO ) came after 32.
He never allows 'BH' to initiate their games by adding variety like slices,lobs,serves,net apporaches which Rafa can't do. Tha's my point.

 

[SLD76]

Federer can handle 'Big Hitters' pretty easily than anyone on planet,let alone Nadal.His wins over Potro ( Shanghai,Paris ) and Tsonga ( AO ) came after 32.
He never allows 'BH' to initiate their games by adding variety like slices,lobs,serves,net apporaches which Rafa can't do. Tha's my point.

too true again. Fed in his prime owned guys like Soderling, Berdch, Tsonga, Blake, Safin, etc.

And again, the weapon that fails him against Nadal, namely Fed's variety of game, is what allowed him to dominate those guys. The different spins, slices, angles that kept them off balance. Meanwhile those guys, if they are fit enough cant wait to tee off of nadal's spinny shots that bounce up into their strike zone.

 

[Luminaire]

He didn't expose anything. Rafa was OBVIOUSLY injured which resulted in taking all of his movement and reaction time away.

It reminded of the Del Potro match in 2009 when Nadal could barely move. So Delpo's grounds and serve looked unreturnable.


Nadal healthy, Nadal wins in straights. 7-6, 6-4-,6-2

You did watch the first set, right?

 

[mistik]

Stan very talented player but he isnt capable of exposing anything under normal conditions. I always think Soderling and Rosol played amazing against Rafa when they beat Rafa no matter what Rafa thinks. İt was yet another Darcis kind of match from Rafa sadly.

 

[SLD76]

Stan very talented player but he isnt capable of exposing anything under normal conditions. I always think Soderling and Rosol played amazing against when they beat Rafa no matter what Rafa thinks. İt was yet another Darcis kind of match from Rafa sadly.

Lmaoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

 

[rdis10093]

interesting analysis. how come bird man cant do number 2

 

[SLD76]

interesting analysis. how come bird man cant do number 2

mentally weak.

 

[mistik]

Lmaoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

I really think Rosol and Soderling played so well. Stan has done even worse than Darcis against a player who is doing nothing out there.

 

[SLD76]

I really think Rosol and Soderling played so well. Stan has done even worse than Darcis against a player who is doing nothing out there.

Lmaoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

 

[tennis_pro]

He didn't expose anything. Rafa was OBVIOUSLY injured which resulted in taking all of his movement and reaction time away.

It reminded of the Del Potro match in 2009 when Nadal could barely move. So Delpo's grounds and serve looked unreturnable.


Nadal healthy, Nadal wins in straights. 7-6, 6-4-,6-2

Given that Wawrinka broke Nadal pretty much at the very start of the match, when did Nadal get injured? INBETWEEN MATCHES? (cause he was brilliant as ever against Federer) or was so unlucky at the start of the match today?

 

[tennis_hack]

That's right, consistent, powerful heavy shots to the middle off the backhand pressurises Nadal's forehand for time, and strips him of hook and angle, allowing you to eventually step in and start bludgeoning his weaker backhand.

Why is Delpo so much better against Nadal than Berdych? Because Berdych goes for the lines, opening up Nadal's angle game, and missing a lot in the process as well. Delpo's game has been described as a 'power pusher' because he hits very hard but to big targets in the middle of the court. This takes away Nadal's angles and also makes him leave the ball short on his forehand...

I don't know how Soderling played Nadal though... Similar to Delpo?

 

[Chanwan]

He didn't expose anything. Rafa was OBVIOUSLY injured which resulted in taking all of his movement and reaction time away.

It reminded of the Del Potro match in 2009 when Nadal could barely move. So Delpo's grounds and serve looked unreturnable.


Nadal healthy, Nadal wins in straights. 7-6, 6-4-,6-2

Whatever makes you sleep well
I for one couldn't see an injured Nadal before the MTO, neither could the commentators.

 

[SLD76]

That's right, consistent, powerful heavy shots to the middle off the backhand pressurises Nadal's forehand for time, and strips him of hook and angle, allowing you to eventually step in and start bludgeoning his weaker backhand.

Why is Delpo so much better against Nadal than Berdych? Because Berdych goes for the lines, opening up Nadal's angle game, and missing a lot in the process as well. Delpo's game has been described as a 'power pusher' because he hits very hard but to big targets in the middle of the court. This takes away Nadal's angles and also makes him leave the ball short on his forehand...

I don't know how Soderling played Nadal though... Similar to Delpo?

nadal was landing alot of fh short and Soderling thumped each and every one. blasting balls deep in the court, and then finishing the point with crushed short angle shots. kinda like Stan tonight.

 

[Steve0904]

Given that Wawrinka broke Nadal pretty much at the very start of the match, when did Nadal get injured? INBETWEEN MATCHES? (cause he was brilliant as ever against Federer) or was so unlucky at the start of the match today?

I think your signature deserves another mention today. Extremely true. I think it was Day Tripper who said it?

 

[Manus Domini]

He showed the weakness of cheating by playing fair and square and pressuring Rafa's gamesmanship and trickery.

 

[Nostradamus]

First thing I want to request to all of you don't target Rafa now in this thread.
This thread aims neutral discussion considering Tactics in Tennis ( Mental and Physical Too )

This is not first time someone exposed Rafa's Weakness.
At start Djokovic did that dethroning Nadal 7 times in Row.
But What Djokovic did-
1)He was extremely mentally tough during spaN OF 2011-2012 (Upto RG )

2) He responded Rafa's counter punching with his 'Aggressive Baseline' Tactics but It was collision of same Tactics. That's the reason he needed 6 hrs.to oust Rafa in pet slam.

3)His other strategy was always hit middle of the court with ( FH to Rafa's BH) except one 'Counter puch' with extreme angle and pace on it. Hitting ball carner to corner with great pace is worst strategy against Rafa,it initiates his game of extreme grinding and opponent makes errors ( That Federer usually does and gets frustrated )
Obviously you need to be extremely patient and consistent with your Ground strokes. ( Which Federer never does ).

4) Having at least good backhand is essential.

Now I'll try to explain what stan Exposed-

1) Rafa is hopeless against big hitters who having capability to hit consistently without making much errors. His loss against JMDP at Shanghai,
Famous Rosol Loss at Wimbledon Soderling loss,proves this point
Rafa just don't have enough tactics or talent to stop consistent hitters with mental strength. Federer can able to do the that because of tremendous variety in his game ( Which Rafa can Dream For ).
If his main weapon ( Forehand to Backhand ), stops working then he's \
hopeless In my opinion

2) Believe me Stan , JMDP have the game to straight set Rafa at any slam except RG but capable of beating him at RG. If they shows consistency in future then don't except much From Rafa in future.

3)Djokovic was temporary solution for Rafa now Stan and JMDP have the game to outclass him completely on regular basis in slams.

LOL, Today' s match showed nothing and meant nothing and was nothing. because Nadal couldn't do anything to attack or move and run down balls. so today's match did not happen at all.

Next time though Nadal will show that he can hit bigger than Stan and more consistently than Stan so rafa will win

 

[watungga]

nadal was landing alot of fh short and Soderling thumped each and every one. blasting balls deep in the court, and then finishing the point with crushed short angle shots. kinda like Stan tonight.

Quite the same as Dmitrov's 1st set with Nadal, which maybe similar to Sampras' overpowering dominance, if he's on tour today.

 

[happyloman]

Stan was playing LIGHTS OUT tennis in the first set. I don't think anyone could've withstood that onslaught.

Not sure I would call it "exposing Nadal's weakness" however. At that playing level, Stan would've beaten EVERYBODY on the other side of the court.

 

[mistik]

Stan was playing LIGHTS OUT tennis in the first set. I don't think anyone could've withstood that onslaught.

Not sure I would call it "exposing Nadal's weakness" however. At that playing level, Stan would've beaten EVERYBODY on the other side of the court.

What kind of level or you talking about 5 -3 0-40 three second serves back to back and Nadal couldnt put one ball in. gifted the set to Stan.

 

[wangs78]

Stan basically did what Federer has tried for ages but could not. Which was - KEEP Nadal on the defense. Hit deep, powerful groundstrokes that Nadal can't attack. Attack Nadal's BH until there is an opening for outright winner to Nadal's FH. Mix in DTL backhands to keep Nadal honest. Move in to the net with confidence when Nadal is in a weak position and finish with a solid volley.

Federer on the other hand cannot maintain this level of play for some reason against Nadal. He mentally cannot sustain it. He cannot maintain deep ground strokes. He tends to follow his inside out FHs into the net only to get passed. He cannot execute on DTL backhands often enough to keep Nadal honest. He is tentative at net and often volleys the ball right back to Nadal or makes an error or even waits for the ball to bounce to hit a swinging volley or a post-bounce overhead to give Nadal time to recover. Bottomline is, Fed is tentative and lacks belief when he plays Nadal. Certainly from 2008-2011 or so he still had the physical ability to play like Stan did today. But he always failed in the stretch. Unfortunately, even if Fed was somehow able to strengthen his mental fortitude, at his age he is unlikely to have the physical endurance to beat Nadal.

Oh well. The reality is though that Fed is better able to beat the vast majority of top players than Stan generally - although Stan is showing GOAT level skills as of late. Sadly, when he plays Nadal, Wilander's comment about Fed's balls is 100% correct.

 

[monfed]

Wawrinka's I/O FH but more critically DTL BH exposed Ralph's 1D game. Boy he really did let rip those DTL BH missiles. :lol:

 

[JohnnyMac Fan!]

I understand what the OP mean. When Rafa faces a guy with a good, consistent and more importantly *powerful* bh...he really has no other option. He can try and play aggressive, but it can backfire if the opponent gets to the ball and returns it with interest.

he can go defensive, but that gives the other guy more time to set up shots to bludgeon him.

Its why guys like Blake, Delpo, Soderling, Berdych, Rosol have notched victories against him.

To be able to beat him regularly you need all of what I said, plus extreme fitness to hang in the long rallies, which is why Djokervic and delpo have multiple wins against him.

Djokervic isnt the biggest hitter, but he uses his legs and defense to create opportunity. plus his bh is world class and a weapon. he can change direction and go dtl, which is essential against Nadal.

Time will tell if this is a one off for Stan or his new standard. But I knew with his rock solid and powerful bh, it would be a problem for Nadal. And some of the bhs stan hit to nadal's fh , it was all nadal could handle, and thats saying something. he rarely gets overpowered on the FH side.

Good Read!

 

[icazares]

1) Rafa is hopeless against big hitters who having capability to hit consistently without making much errors.

And who's not? I think yesterday's match proves that you have to play an almost perfect match to beat Nadal.

 

[dafinch]

Well, although Stan obviously went on a walkabout in the 3rd set whilst dealing with BP's shenanigans(not to mention the specter of 0-12 and his 1st Slam final), he had a game plan and, by and large, stuck with it: he mixed it up with some serve and volle. It makes me wanna hurl seeing BP get away with standing so far behind the baseline to return serve. You'll get passed now and then, but you'll also get the occasional floater and even an outright error-of-surprise, as Stan did. If nothing else, it conserves some energy and beats getting ground down in a 10 shot rally. The announcers specifically mentioned that stubborn *** Fed tried it for a short time(I had no interest in watching that match) and quickly gave up, thus trying the same old thing and getting the same old result. He also frequently made him pay with that running-around-the-backhand stuff, the opening is there, you gotta go for it and approach, if he can reach it and pass you from that position, that's just too good.

 

[dafinch]

And who's not? I think yesterday's match proves that you have to play an almost perfect match to beat Nadal.

Stan served 38% in the first set. How is that "...an almost perfect set?"

 

[Alchemist]

And who's not? I think yesterday's match proves that you have to play an almost perfect match to beat Nadal.

As stated earlier Federer at 32 have more ability to handle 'Big Hitters' than any version of Rafa. That's why he dominated Blake,Gonzo,Davydenko in his peak and after peak also he is beating Potro (Twice After Uso ),Tsonga (AO 2014).

THe reason is Rafa have 1D game and Federer nice variety that imbalances his opponents which Rafa can dream for.

 

[icazares]

Stan served 38% in the first set. How is that "...an almost perfect set?"

True, but his ground strokes were... stunning. Brutal. Devastating. Also, Stan's 2nd serve is not bad at all. Very good spots and not a bad speed. I think he was playing lights last night. Very impressive. I think Nadal's injury didn't let us see what would have been a great classic.

 

[dafinch]

You did watch the first set, right?

Didn't you get the press release? BP was injured in the warm-up, but, brave warrior that he is, brilliantly masked it until he got down a set and a break...

 

[tipsa...don'tlikehim!]

Given that Wawrinka broke Nadal pretty much at the very start of the match, when did Nadal get injured? INBETWEEN MATCHES? (cause he was brilliant as ever against Federer) or was so unlucky at the start of the match today?

not taking off credit to Stan but put the video at 1:50 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=EH9RFCnfv8M#t=110

When i watched that I found it strange how Nadal looks like he can hit this ball back with his BH but play the shot like he has no chance to put it back. Play and replay it... strange...

But in other rallies he doesn't look bothered, hard to tell exactly when he started feeling a pain.

 

[icazares]

As stated earlier Federer at 32 have more ability to handle 'Big Hitters' than any version of Rafa. That's why he dominated Blake,Gonzo,Davydenko in his peak and after peak also he is beating Potro (Twice After Uso ),Tsonga (AO 2014).

THe reason is Rafa have 1D game and Federer nice variety that imbalances his opponents which Rafa can dream for.

Funny. Federer almost always has trouble with Del Potro, Berdych, Tsonga. Since his peak time he has lost most of the matches against them. I think Federer has more variety for sure, but there is very little to do against a big hitter and big server when they are in the zone.

 

[kanamit]

He didn't expose anything. Rafa was OBVIOUSLY injured which resulted in taking all of his movement and reaction time away.

It reminded of the Del Potro match in 2009 when Nadal could barely move. So Delpo's grounds and serve looked unreturnable.


Nadal healthy, Nadal wins in straights. 7-6, 6-4-,6-2

We basically know the point when Nadal tweaked his back. It was after Wawrinka had already won a set. What do you have against Wawrinka that you are trying to deny him his due credit? Or do you think that injuries work retroactively?

 

[dafinch]

As stated earlier Federer at 32 have more ability to handle 'Big Hitters' than any version of Rafa. That's why he dominated Blake,Gonzo,Davydenko in his peak and after peak also he is beating Potro (Twice After Uso ),Tsonga (AO 2014).

THe reason is Rafa have 1D game and Federer nice variety that imbalances his opponents which Rafa can dream for.

In all fairness, Alchemist, your original comment made me think of a pithy reply by boxing legend Joe Louis(who, although he didn't have a formal education, made more than a few concise observations, most notably, "He can run, but he can't hide" when asked about a stick and jab opponent). A reporter said something like, "Well, Joe, you're matched up against Joe Blow(this was during JL's "Bum of the Month" club phase, don't remember the opponent). Although he has a big punch, the word is, he doesn't like a good stiff jab to the face.

Louis: "Who do?":smile::wink::grin:

 

[dafinch]

We basically know the point when Nadal tweaked his back. It was after Wawrinka had already won a set. What do you have against Wawrinka that you are trying to undermine his performance? Or do you think that injuries work retroactively?

Don't bother him with logic, it makes his head hurt...

 

[tipsa...don'tlikehim!]

Wawrinka's I/O FH but more critically DTL BH exposed Ralph's 1D game. Boy he really did let rip those DTL BH missiles. :lol:

I think players know how to beat Nadal, but they fail to do it most of the time , it's the difference between theory and practise and that's why Federer can't defeat him anymore.
Actually when watching their match in Shanghai and at the WTF I found it VERY strange that Stan never won a set over Rafa because he didn't seem to be bothered on his BH side at all.

I think he just lacked belief at the time, and the win over Djokovic gave him this belief.

Also, I think a guy like Gasquet could perfectly beat Nadal on hardcourt, but his problem is his FH + his tendancy to play too passive. You can't beat Nadal by defending and pushing the ball.

How to beat Rafa on hardcourt: just watch Del Potro vs Nadal in shanghai.
Play on his BH and finish the point DTL on his FH side.

 

[lethalfang]

He proved that if you're red shot, hitting big shots after big shots without missing, you can beat Nadal. Sure, that's no secret.
If you can do that consistently, you would be the World's #1.

 

[watungga]

not taking off credit to Stan but put the video at 1:50 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=EH9RFCnfv8M#t=110

When i watched that I found it strange how Nadal looks like he can hit this ball back with his BH but play the shot like he has no chance to put it back. Play and replay it... strange...

But in other rallies he doesn't look bothered, hard to tell exactly when he started feeling a pain.

Nope. Nadal miscalculated the probability of the ball going too far out to left.

Here's the thriller Stan: 5:51 to 6:06
Nadal must be feeling helpless already. His neutralizers are being castrated by Stwantonly.

 

[stringertom]

Wawrinka's I/O FH but more critically DTL BH exposed Ralph's 1D game. Boy he really did let rip those DTL BH missiles. :lol:

More importantly, Magnus has beefed up Stan's FH enough that he uses it as the kill shot from the BH alley. Those were frozen ropes when he ran around the BH to end points!

 

[Boom-Boom]

Rafa is hopeless against big hitters

 

[stringertom]

I might also add that a requirement for being effective vs Nadal is a higher comfort zone, whether due to size or technique. Rogi's semi-Western grip doesn't let him, at a moderate height, handle the high bouncer. Stan is shorter but his full Western FH and his more versatile BH can trade rallies with Nadal until an opening develops. The taller guys (JMDP, Soderling) hit closer to their comfort zones in typical rallies with him. Still, it takes a great day on court for anyone to beat a world #1, no matter who it is!

 

[tennis_hack]

I might also add that a requirement for being effective vs Nadal is a higher comfort zone, whether due to size or technique. Rogi's semi-Western grip doesn't let him, at a moderate height, handle the high bouncer. Stan is shorter but his full Western FH and his more versatile BH can trade rallies with Nadal until an opening develops. The taller guys (JMDP, Soderling) hit closer to their comfort zones in typical rallies with him. Still, it takes a great day on court for anyone to beat a world #1, no matter who it is!

Not a grip issue, Federer has no problem with high ball on the forehand, it's just the backhand. Wawrinka actually has the same backhand grip as Federer, but very different backhand technique which is more effective at dealing with higher balls