Discussion in 'Odds & Ends' started by soyizgood, Jul 29, 2010.
Plat right now, was up to Diamond 16 in beta.
Are you sure you're building you workers correctly? We can help you out about that.
Also, I know a ventrilo server we can use. ^^
starcraft is a game focused heavily on macro, which is why i never really got into it playing or spectating. warcraft 3 is a game based around a lot of fights, and less macro (because of the food limitations, 100 max supply vs 200 in sc, and the fact that the more supply you get the less resources you make)
I see some of you players mention zern and toss. I thought these races were not included in the SC2 WoL release? Or is it just the campagins for these two races were not included in the $60 release? I apprecieate any clarification. thx.
As some mentioned the original SC and Brood War expansion , Zerg is the easiest to play with. Toss can be overwhelming when teched up and the users knows how to used the tech/research properly. I least like to play against Terran.....tanks and nukes can demoralize me easily.
SC 2 campaigns center around terran, but there are a couple of campaigns for protoss. You can play any of the races in multiplayer or vs AI in custom mode.
Man TnT your post is just full of silliness. Wings of Liberty includes the terran single player campaign but all 3 races can be used for multiplayer...what would be the point with only terran??? Oh and Zerg as the easiest race to play? You must be joking or just simply don't know much about the game, Zerg is the most difficult to play but very strong in the hands of good player.
I've played Starcraft, Warcraft 3: Frozen Throne, and now Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty.
They each were great in their own ways. SC and SC II were obviously great in a pretty similar way, but Starcraft ranks higher for me due to nostalgia and how great it was for its' time. SC II was certainly not a 12-year improvement on the first one, particularly how ****ty the interface is (I mean no chat channels? Come on). However, it is easy to see why it took so long to make. Diablo II and its' expansion in 2000 and '01, respectively; Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos came out in '02, Warcraft III: Frozen Throne in '03, World of Warcraft in '04, WoW: BC in '07, WoW: WotLK in '08 and the next WoW xpac is coming out this year as well. So they have certainly been busy, and with the huge popularity and uproar of WoW, it is no mystery that they concentrated all their attention, focus, and money into milk that cash-cow for everything that it is worth, lol. Not to mention, Blizzard can't hold on to their initial 'release date' for anything, much less the next 5 they throw out there, lol.
What they do put out though, is great. They take a lot of time on their games, and it shows. Their games are really well balanced and fun to play.
I was best at WCIII, being ranked at the top 1000 at one point- highest ranking being 889, if I remember correctly. However, on Starcraft, I didn't play ladder very much, and mostly played money maps, lol. I was good at that, but not very good at the ladder in turn (even though I didn't play it much), which is what matters most in-terms of game mastery. I also liked playing a lot of the UMS games on SC and WCIII. WCIII I loved the ladder though and never played the money maps, except for one time, and for some reason never liked them. I am trying to get good at SCII, but am not doing so hot right now (.500 win pct). Occasionally I go up a few matches above .500 or a couple below. I don't like looking up strategies, as I find figuring out that stuff on your own to be rewarding and part of the fun. But yeah, good times so far; I am enjoying the game.
The planet with the infested terrans, Meinhoff, is a fairly hard campaign. Those things are everywhere at night led by those aberration zerg things. I'm thinking I need to make 2 attack groups to destroy all those infested buildings. I used one while relying on my machine gun bunkers as my main defense. Any advice for me?
Block off the entrances with a Barracks or something and a Tech Lab, as well as a Supply Depot (I remember on one of the entrances I needed a Supply Depot to fully wall-off). Attack from behind using Marines, and for the Infested Terrans just lift off for a quick second and go.
I'm almost off of my vacation, so I'll come help you when I can.
I just wanted some clarification. I've been reading lots of reviews (good and bad) about the SC2 release. Most of the upset ones rant that only Terran campagin was given in the $60 purchase. Nothing silly in seeking some clarification.
I've been playing since 1999 and took part in multiple LAN tournaments when I was attending University. Zerg for me is the easierst to play with as you can overwhelm your opponents with your numbers (provided you have acquired multiple expansions). So I know much about the game.
You can't overwhelm anything with Zerg anymore.
Just look at the food costs, here is what happens:
It's pretty bad...
I'm seriously interested in buying this. Can't stand WOW anymore, and since I love Blizzard's games.
I wonder if anyone could sent me a guest key? Is it possible for any of you guys?
Yes you can.
'Twas exaggeration that confused the beast.
I ALWAYS surround any Terran, Zerg or Protoss opponent because Terran and Protoss lack the mobility we can.
Want to play?
As soon as I get back from my vacation, hell yeah. I have to go buy it too though. ^^
I tried playing protoss last night vs terran AI. It feels a bit weird and the hotkeys have different letters, but protoss units even in smaller numbers can overpower terran. And I still don't even know how to warp in units with the warp prism or warp to regular pylons. I built 3 colossuses though. I'll try zerg soon.
^^If the terran is half decent he isn't going to have trouble early against protoss. He'll wall off his ramp likely so you cant touch him and go something like marauders which with concussive shot **** zealots. Not to mention reapers can be a huge pain in the butt unless you went an early stalker which is standard right now.
You have to upgrade 'warp gates' at the 'cybernetics core', which requires a gateway. Once the upgrade is finished, you click on the gateways and click warp gate in bottom left. Then, you can 'warp' units into play without having to wait for them to 'build'. The 'proxy' pylon or warp prism thing are so you can warp units in at particular locations, but you need the field to be able to warp them in to play.
Add me if you want to play
I just played my 2nd beginner's multi-player match. This time I won in 19 minutes. My opponent was a protoss.
I used the scan feature to see that he was not as far along in military as me. He had no photo cannons, so I built up on banshees for early attack. My 1st strike was VERY successful as I took out a couple of pylons and most of his probes. I scooted off before his stalkers could strike. He then sent a small force into the middle of the field that ran into my forces. Two scuffles that I won. Repaired my banshees, researched cloak but it wasn't necessary. He defended his entrance with stalkers, so I moved my banshees around so I could kill off his remaining probes. That forced him to GG.
So I think I am getting more comfortable with terran. I didn't have to build up much for defense and the quick strike by the banshees was all that I really needed.
Nice job soy, when you get super professional you'll join the Zerg. ^^
Scouting is everything in SC1, I assume the same is so in SC2.
Still need to buy this game...I'm excited about zerg though. Hydras are super beefed, the queens are a very cool addition too.
Nicely done. Banshee harass is very common in PvP. If you like harassing, Terran is the race for you. Reapers, thorships, dropships, banshees, ghosts, vikings, siege tanks - all incredible for harassing.
Absolutely. Scouting is nine-tenths of the law.
I got humbled by a zerg player. He did not play like a beginner. He boobie trapped my attacking force by burrowing. Then he attacked with a bunch of roaches and quite a few ultralisks. He built 322 units compared to my 67. Granted I expanded late, but that opponent should be playing leagues, not the beginner level.
OMG I played a co-op game. My teammate was a JERK. He didn't come to my aid when I needed help, he loaded up on zealots and archons which were just massacred. Then when I basically clobber one of the AI, my ally turns against me and starts wrecking up my structures. Ruined a good game. Ugh!
I guess I'll plunk down the cash for fraps. I've tried free alternatives and they all suck.
Just bought my copy today, played it for the first time.
I zerg and I find it both harder and easier. It is a lot more intensive now since now you gotta use queens to keep up the larva and you need to do all this creep spreading and stuff. Also, lings aren't what they used to be as an early game unit, and I definitely struggle the most early game defending with just lings and maybe a spine. Once I get mutas it gets a lot easier thanks to the harass/contain, and then finally ultras are real good.
When playing co-op, the AI is much nastier in 3 vs AI than in 2 vs AI, even on easy level.
I feel like an idiot, but finally a light bulb hit me on the head (more like a SC 2 tip provided by the game). I wasn't producing enough SCVs to optimize collecting minerals. I upped my collection and whooped the AI in medium difficulty. Now I need to do this in multiplayer. I knew 3 SCVs was the optimal limit for geysers, but didn't know that was also the number for each mineral field. DOH!
3 is a bit much per mineral patch I think. I believe it's closer to something like 2.4 workers per patch = saturated base. Also you one of the best things to focus on if you're a sc noob. Never stop producing workers. Then whenever you expo take a bunch of workers from your main and just run em over to the expansion. Helps to get both bases saturated faster = more money = you will probably outmacro noobier opponents.
It depends on the location of the mineral patch. Closer it is to your Command Center, you put 2 on. If it's farther, you put 3 on. However, do note that the one with 3 workers will work in this fashion:
1. Worker #1 gathers.
2. Worker #2 gathers.
3. Worker #2 waits a few milliseconds before gathering, however will get the minerals before Worker #1 returns.
Why would your CC be further to the minerals than the regular position?
fundrazer is right, you never want to stop producing workers. This will allow you to transfer workers to your expansion so you can saturate it faster.
I play 1 base, or what some people refer to as "all-in". So I cut probes at about 24.
Played my placement matches today, ended 4-1 with Platinum. Unfortunately, I missed Diamond by a match that I could've won if I didn't quick so early. My toss opponent killed most of my **** but I had an expo saturated with workers and a corruptor army (like 12). I had like 3k minerals, so I should've just expanded like crazy built a large zergling army since he was basically just using collossus and immortals and I would've killed his base off pretty quick. but i gged and left :/
Also I just saw this:
soooo epic, it is worth the watch. the ending is totally mind blowing.
I play co-ops just to get more familiar and try different tactics. I'm sticking with terran, though I might dabble with Zerg. I just don't feel comfortable playing protoss.
Brood war is better. Obviously.
24 workers spread out over 8 mineral patches= 3 workers/patch, which is exactly what the game creators recommend themselves. Then 6 more workers over the 2 gas geysers. So 30 workers per base is for optimum efficiency. Sometimes, what they suggest, is at your expansion, just bring 8 workers, one on each mineral patch, and 6 for the gas. Afterwards, once your main base dries up, you can shift the majority to that and the rest to a 3rd expansion. You don't want to have 3 bases operating at maximum efficiency, because that would be 90 workers on each, which is almost half of your production limit. Really, you don't want to have more than 80 workers, and that's a lot, but more reasonable.
However, with the Zerg, it isn't as big of a deal if you overproduce with workers, because when it gets later in the game, if you want to mass produce units after a battle or just open up more production- you can turn those workers into defensive structures. That can come in handy if your opponent attacks you or trying to delay their counter on you and how much damage they can inflict.
Hmm, maybe I confused myself, 2.4 should really be 24 total. I just checked TL and the math supports the 24 workers on minerals. So you're right on that mark juges.
However, your 2nd point I do not agree with. Overproducing workers as zerg can mean losing the game, mainly in the early game. When to drone or make units is something a lot of people struggle with. One of the reasons why Idra occasionally gets rolled by early pressure like reapers. He doesn't have the units to defend with.
I was referring to the late-late game, where you are already at your 3rd/4th xpo and you have a bunch of workers. It isn't as big of a deal then- because with Zerg, you can use them to create defensive structures. Where as with Toss/Terran, you are stuck with those workers unless you kill them or send them to get killed.
Yes, obviously in the early stages if you just pump out workers and don't produce attacking units, then yeah lol, you're ****ed. It is good though to produce workers if you have spare $ while you are building up your army. You just have to keep on the queens to spawn larva, etc.
Who is Idra lol? Is that a known player? Sorry, I haven't gone on the SC II forums or anything, so I'm not familiar with the top players currently.
However, what you seem to be alluding to, I agree. Depends the strategy of the opposing player and whether they are a mega harasser/rusher/etc or more counter-punching type. Sometimes, you can gamble and if they don't rush you, then you just leap-frogged them because you can get your economy booming faster and then get tier 2/3 stuff faster and get the W. Typically though, it's not your best bet. In the early stages of the game, you can put up some spine crawlers early to defend the early rush, use your queen, and if need be, workers as well. But then you have to start producing attacking units or you are going to be done if they see what you're going for.
I think an important key with Zerg too is- expanding early. In 1v1, you often times play on a 2v2 map, so you don't have to expand to your natural expansion (For me it depends on my strategy of the game that time). Then you get more larva, spawn another queen at your expansions, hot key hatcheries, and then you have your entire pool of larva there for easy access. Another thing related to that is- you can do the spawn larva on your mini map. So if you are attacking, you can hot key your queens and spawn larva by clicking on the hatcheries on your mini map.
I'm not a strictly Zerg player, though. I always play random since I like to be well-rounded in games. I was like that in the first SC and WCIII as well. I'm sure there are Zerg-only players who know better, but those are just some things I have discovered while playing.
Zerg has been kinda schmucked right now. It is by far the hardest race to play (seriously, managing your creep, larva, armies, switching between drone and unit production, expanding, etc.) and it has the weakest early game. Also zerg is very reactionary right now, but scouting is too difficult, particuarly against terran who almost always walls in. And of course, terran has the most early game options. reaper harass, hellion harass, rines/rauders, fast rine/tank rush, etc.
IdRa is one of the best zerg players, though he is a bit of a ******. He says he is probably switching to terran, like a lot of top zergs, because there is an imbalance right now.
I played a few of my matches and when I fast expanded, I typically lost. It is what is expected of zerg to do, so stuff like 2 gate and fast reaper/hellion are just bad and either kill your expo. I think it is a lot safer now to expo only after you get some speedling/roaches.
I've played co-ops with Zerg players and on a lot of occasions they expanded too early which screwed up our battle. If I have a mutual ramp with a zerg player, I'll play defense to protect the ramp until the Zerg player builds up tech. I have to BEG the Zerg player not to expand so early at times. One tactic worked was when I defended the base until my Zerg partner teched up to Mutalisks and we went from there.
It wasn't my choice. Some mineral patches are farther back than others.
Going one-base isn't always considered and all-in build. An all-in build is when you do nothing but a quick cheese rush to win. It comes from the gambling term. You can go all in and win a lot, or lose everything.
Sounds like you're making too many Queens. Over here on the Korean servers we've decided that too many Queens are a bad thing, and that it shouldn't necessarily be one per Hatchery. She (I'm assuming here) costs 150 minerals and 2 food and time. She's only really good against air and blocking off your ramp. Her Inject Larvae ability is very useful in the early game, however in the late game unless your entire army dies, it becomes an annoying skill to have because all it does is gather up your larvae that you can't use. Because of this, we thought up about getting only a few, and using them for Transfusions (in-base defense forms) in the late mid-game to late game.
That is a problem now-a-days from Zerg players. They watch too many games of IdrA rather than games from sAviOr (yes he is playing SC2) or Jaedong and somewhat JulyZerg. Fast expanding is only used on larger maps, and are deadly on small maps (and there are small maps in 2 vs 2's). They're only successful if the opponent isn't able to harass as much and get to that "equilibrium" point or exceed that equilibrium point where the economic damage has outdone your loss in the economic battle during your transition to expansions.
I disagree. We get our units 1 - 7 units at a time. We're not Terran, and we're not Protoss so our workers do not have to be built linearly.
Soy, if you're playing 2vs2 online, and playing terran right? Just mass reapers, from what I've heard it's a big problem with team games right now. Reapers just move too quickly and the + dmg to light and buildings...it's just ridiculous. Reapers should be more than enough to pressure while a teammate expos.
Lost a 3 vs medium AI just now because my Zerg ally early expanded without defending his main ramp.
I'll give the reapers a chance just to mess around.
Now that is very interesting. I heard korean players were faring a lot better with zerg and this certainly seems to be eye opening. So instead of more queens, just building more hatcheries? Definitely something I'll try out. And it does sound like that would allow for better management of economy/army/creep spreading. I've also recently found I do best when I don't expand at 14/15/16 and instead in the low 20s with speedlings, since everyone just loves to do early aggression against zerg.
I need to try to watch some more korean zerg players; yes I have been watching mostly idra/dimaga/artosis and their style of play has been what I've been trying to emulate.
^^He doesn't necessarily mean build more hatcheries. From what I hear most korean players are going 1base builds with their god given ability to micro like crazy. Dunno what their zergs are doing but I think the terrans are going early reaper builds while protoss are going 4 warpgate rushes. Of course you'll still see some variations.
Oh and don't just try to play like idra and friends, find a style that works for you! When I played wc3 I would watch replays of all the top human players like ToD Insom and Sky, but would always try to mix and meld some of their strategies. Oh and Check is a good korean zerg, check out some of his stuff.
The message I was trying to get out was this:
You get 6 drones now, and they gather 5 minerals instead of 4 drones and 8 minerals as you did in Starcraft 1.
The problem with this is that your expansions are limited. If you want to saturate all of your expansions against a Terran wall-off, you need to have like 100 workers which is 100/200 food. This gives the problem of your army being small. For Terran and Protoss, because they don't expand as much as we do, it's not a problem.
However, because we expand a lot, and we need to (Hatcheries make Larva, Larva make units), it brings out the fact that we should get Hatcheries instead of Queens.
Queens cost 2 food, so if you get one for every Hatchery, you could essentially be getting 10 food worth of Queens by the late game, which is a waste of food in your army.
Most people don't "see" this (not the correct word really) because all they see is "whoa, I'm almost at my food cap, I should get more Overlords" but Overlords will max. you out at 200 no matter how many Overlords you get.
It's not "exactly" what I meant, but in the late game, you don't want to have TOO many drones either. Because of that, you should place down some Hatcheries at places you eventually plan on expanding to after you get around 3 expansions saturated (saturation being 2 drones on each mineral patch, 3 on each gas).
However, one thing that commonly did come to our Zerg minds naturally is this:
1. I can't always use my Queen's Spawn Larvae ability. Yeah there's that backspace method, but when will your Queen's all have 25 energy? When will you be able to do that in the middle of a battle when you need to control your units? You can't. So, get 2 Hatcheries at that location (even if you're not mining there anymore) so your Queen can use more energy.
2. Tell your "fast expanding" allies to stop fast expanding unless it's a map the size of Andromeda from SC1.
3. IdrA hasn't been fast expanding in his most recent games.
4. HDstarcraft uploaded games of Check (aka 곰돌이) employing some very good strategies. The extra Hatchery thing is something he did, and he's a very fast thinker (you'll see a match of him "Proxy Hatching" and winning, sorry for spoiling).
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