Static Weight (Mass) vs Swing Weight: Relationship Preference?

TimothyO

Hall of Fame
Which relationship between swing weight and mass do you prefer and why?

- a frame with a lower mass and higher swing weight?

- a frame with a higher mass and lower swing weight?

Here are a couple of extreme examples of new frames:

YouTek Graphene Speed PWR has a mass of only 9.8 oz but a swing weight of 335.

Meanwhile the new Technifibre 315 Ltd with 16 mains weighs in at a mass of 11.6 oz and a swing weight of only 301.

Now, don't get wrapped around the specifics of these two frames and relative values. I'm just curious as to why some players might enjoy high static weights with low swing weights or, on the other hand, low static weights with very high swing weights.
 
I like a high static weight with a moderate swingweight. 12+ oz with a 320-ish SW is good for me. I've experimented with variations in both directions, but eventually settled on something.
 
I imagine some people like headlight frames.

I like high swingweight and headlight which usually means high static weight.
 
One reason I'm curious about this is that swing weight, as measured, isn't a frame's true "swing weight". You can have two frames of equal swing weight but different static weights and the heavier of the two will be harder to swing for obvious reasons (swing weight is measured from a point on the handle but we swing from our core and shoulder).

In experiments with frames matched at a base set of specs I've noticed that frames with higher static weight feel more stable but at some point that extra mass gets so hard to move it inhibits racquet head speed and therefore spin and even power at some point, especially on volley.

On the other hand, a lower static weight frame with a high swing weight can feel almost too powerful since you can sometimes generate too much RHS and therefore power.

For any given player there seems to be a sweet spot that really isn't captured with current paper specs. It depends on physique, strength, arm length, height, etc. And therefore it seems almost impossible to say that player A prefer a static weight of X without ALSO specifying a SW at that given static weight.
 
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One reason I'm curious about this is that swing weight, as measured, isn't a frame's true "swing weight". You can have two frames of equal swing weight but different static weights and the heavier of the two will be harder to swing for obvious reasons (swing weight is measured from a point on the handle but we swing from our core and shoulder).

The reference swingweight measured at 10cm from the butt end is the true swingweight, it's just not the only swingweight. This location was chosen long ago as being the place where the thumb and forefinger meet, which is typically the axis of rotation of a person's grip. You're right, though, that it is possible and perhaps useful to consider swingweights at other axes of rotation, such as at the wrist, the elbow, the shoulder....beyond that I'm not sure.

But keep in mind that studies done on golfers, baseball batters and tennis players have shown that there is a linear relationship between the swingweight at the wrist axis (which necessarily includes the weight of the hand) and maximum swingspeed. It turns out that the effective swingweight at the wrist axis is more or less proportional to the the 10cm reference swingweight.

These studies have shown that static mass does not correlate with max swingspeed. So if you have two racquets, both with 320 swingweight but one being 340 grams and the other 320 grams, a player will be able to swing them at approximately the same speed. All things being equal, a more headlight balance and/or lower static mass will reduce the wrist-axis swingweight a little bit, but it's not a big deal. (For example, two frames weighing 340 grams, both with 320 swingweight, but one with 31cm balance and the other 32cm balance - the more headlight one will have a wrist-axis swingweight that will feel more like a 315 swingweight frame. But this one will swing quite different, in terms of "swing feel" and timing, and even though it may be physically easier to swing you may not care for the way it comes through the hitting zone.)

It would make intuitive sense that the effective swingweight at the shoulder joint axis would limit swingspeed, however, especially for the serve. Higher static mass and/or less headlight balance will increase the effective swingweight at the shoulder, if the reference swingweight is kept constant. But the relationship between the shoulder axis swingweight and maximum swingspeed on serve has not been studied, to my knowledge anyway. This remains mysterious territory.

The poster/salesman Stoneage provided us all with a spreadsheet to calculate the effective swingweight at various axes in a thread from last year. (Although he converted effective swingweight into "equivalent mass" for some reason.) A search will turn it up.

In experiments with frames matched at a base set of specs I've noticed that frames with higher static weight feel more stable but at some point that extra mass gets so hard to move it inhibits racquet head speed and therefore spin and even power at some point, especially on volley.

On the other hand, a lower static weight frame with a high swing weight can feel almost too powerful since you can sometimes generate too much RHS and therefore power.

I disagree with this strongly. There is no such thing, in my view, as too much racquet-head speed, or too much "power." I think what you are actually describing is a lack of control, not an excess of power. Consider the pros: they use racquets that have much higher swingweights, and are therefore much more inherently powerful, than what we use; they also swing these powerful clubs much faster than us, and yet they use strings and string tensions similar to what we use. They swing faster than us, with more powerful equipment, and they are the best in the world.

The physicist Rod Cross made some great observations some years ago about the benefits of a heavy handle to control in this article: http://www.racquetsportsindustry.com/articles/2006/04/racquet_handle_weighting_and_m.html

More recently, the poster travlerajm proposed a double pendulum model to predict the effect of various weight distributions on the timing of groundstroke swings. "MgR/I" is the search term. A very useful formula in my experience, although it has its critics.

For any given player there seems to be a sweet spot that really isn't captured with current paper specs. It depends on physique, strength, arm length, height, etc. And therefore it seems almost impossible to say that player A prefer a static weight of X without ALSO specifying a SW at that given static weight.

Many players have made the same observations and mused along similar lines. There are a lot of threads on this topic from the past five years or so. And I disagree that that "sweet spot" you're looking for isn't captured with current paper specs. It's right there: swingweight + static weight + balance.
 
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I prefer headlight frames as the head heavy ones feel a little pendulous... if that's the right word.

I think it is the right word, and that's how I would describe it too. But I think you'll find the same feeling if you take that pendulous head heavy racquet and add an ounce of lead or whatever very close to the end of the butt. Now it will be very headlight rather than headheavy, but you will still feel the pendulous quality of all that mass in the head. If you were to add the ounce at the top of the handle instead of the butt the feeling would be very different.
 
I like high static weight AND high swingweight, and for me, the balance has to be precisely tuned for my swing.

I don't really look at swingweight as a determinant of swingspeed on groundstrokes - if my MgR/I value is tuned for my swing, then a high swingweight doesn't feel any different than a low swingweight. However, the ball response at impact is highly dependent on the swingweight.

After being inspired by one of Corners' threads discussing the influence of extra weight at 3 and 9 on spin, I did an experiment today with my new BLX Blade (picked up a pink one for cheap).

It is strung with Kevlar 18/SPPP 17 at 50/48. I had leaded the hoop with 2 layers of lead from 12:30-3:30 and 8:30-11:30, bringing the swingweight to high 360s (the swingweight range I have been using almost exclusively for the past 5 years), and I had wrapped enough lead under grip at top of handle to bring static weight to about 12.5 oz. I headed to the racquetball court to test, and found the ball response to have moderate spin and decent solid feel.

I had nearly an ounce of extra lead tape with me, and I was ready to try some "free tuning". 'Free Tuning' is my term for going to the wall and messing around with lead without worrying too much about actual weight or balance, and just going by feel (and experience).

And here comes the fun part: I slapped on an extra 4g or so at the 3-&-9 position. As I was hoping, I noticed a significant change in the ball response: it went from moderately spinny to montrously heavy rpm. But the MgR/I required some tuning, so I used the remaining lead I had on me to wrap around the handle (when free tuning, I wrap the lead over the grip so I can move it around efficiently). By the time I found a setup with MgR/I tuned for my forehand, I ended up with all of the lead top of the grip 6 to 8" from the butt.

The result: REALLY heavy forehands with the type of rpm that you normally only see top pros generate - really addictive just to hit against the wall. I stayed at the wall for an hour an a half, much longer than usual since it was such a fun feeling to see the ball bend so violently. Hitting serves against the wall was also fun, as I could tell that the ball was spinning so rapidly, by the huge side-kicks off the wall. Amazingly, the racquet still felt crisp and controlled on volleys. And backhand slices were also fun, since I could really make the ball bend sharply by adding some side spin. I could control my 2hbs well, but I could have used a few extra grams of lead for tailweighting, since the MgR/I for my 2hb was slightly too high (coming around slightly too fast).

I came home and took measurements: 377 SW, 12.99" balance, 13.37 oz.
MgR/I came to 20.8 (lower than the 21.0 that seems to work best for me when I use SW in the 360s).

I've posted before that adding mass to the hoop tends to decrease spin and flatten out the ball response until you reach a tipping point (with the flattest possible ball response). The tipping point typically occurs at a swingweight of 355-360. Beyond the tipping point, further increases in mass added to the hoop start to result in increased spin. I've found swingweights in the 360s produce similar type ball response to swingweights in the 320s. But venturing into the 370s can get you into heavy-ball high-rpm territory that isn't possible to duplicate with a stock swingweight (without needing to swing any harder than usual, as long as MgR/I is tuned for your swing).

I'm really looking forward to testing out my 377SW Blade on a full court. If the serve really jumps off the court for me at this SW like I hope, then I might have a new regular racquet, since the naturally heavy high-rpm forehand adds a dimension to my game that I could really use.
 
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Very interesting corners, can you explain the how and why of this difference in feel?

Well, this gets directly into the annals of Talk Tennis: the infamous legend of Mr. John Cauthen, and the illustrious but controversial travlerajm.

Timothy asks very astute questions. And like I mentioned above, many players with inquisitive minds before him have also asked these questions. What is the ideal swingweight for a given player? How does static weight and balance influence the "felt swingweight"? Is the "felt" swingweight the "real" swingweight? Why does this racquet swing "just right!" for me, and this other one, with almost the same specs, swing just slightly wrong? How can I increase the swingweight of the "just right!" racquet and still have it swing "just right!"?

Both John Cauthen and travelerajm, the former a mad tinkerer, the latter a scientist, arrived at a similar place: you can "tune" the swing dynamics, or swing feel, of a frame by tweaking its weight distribution. The simplest way to do this, they both found, was by adding or subtracting mass at the top of the grip. You can read a week's worth of stuff about this, (which is not a waste of time, BTW, if you're also a mad tinkerer or scientist), just by searching for these guys. But if you want to get the experiential gist, try what I mentioned above: add some mass at the butt cap (just inside a trap door is most convenient), then take that mass off and move it to the top of the grip. I think you'll find the "swing feel" and timing, and to a lesser extent, the impact feel, to be significantly different between the two. A full ounce isn't necessary - 10 grams would do.
 
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