Stats for 1982 USO SF(Lendl-McEnroe)

[Moose Malloy]

Lendl d. McEnroe 6-4, 6-4, 7-6(8-6)

This ended McEnroe's 26 match win streak at the USO(he was the 3 time defending champion)

It was Lendl's 6th straight win over McEnroe.

Lendl won 110 points, McEnroe 99.

Lendl served at 53%(56 of 105)
McEnroe served at 49%(51 of 104)

Lendl won 47 of 56 points on 1st serve(84%)
He won 28 of 49 on 2nd(57%)

McEnroe won 36 of 51 points on 1st serve(70.5%)
He won 33 of 53 on 2nd(62%)

Lendl had 29 non service winners: 10 fh, 9 bh, 3 fhv, 4 bhv, 3 ov
McEnroe had 20: 1 fh, 5 bh, 9 fhv, 4 bhv, 1 ov

Lendl had 11 passing shot winners(4 fh, 7 bh)
McEnroe had 2, both bh

Lendl had 9 aces, 4 df's
McEnroe had 15 aces, 3 df's

Lendl had 19 unreturned serves, 2 I judged service winners
McEnroe had 20, one I judged a service winner

Lendl was 2 of 8 on break points
McEnroe was 0 of 2

McEnroe served and stayed back on 16 2nd serves, which was a rather startling sight, he was really spooked by the Lendl return(but if you look at the stats he won 62% of 2nd serves, should have just stuck with the gameplan)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvn5oHDtEhY

stats from CBS

at 2-1 in the 3rd, McEnroe with 24 unforced errors, Lendl 17.


In the post match interview on court, John Tesh asked Lendl about the final vs Connors. Lendl, with no expression on his face, said "did he win?" Tesh seemed a bit taken aback, & paused before answering, "yes."
I can see how stuff like this would make Lendl somewhat unpopular with the media, Tesh only had a few seconds for a brief interview & Lendl gives him a hard time instead of answering a perfectly reasonable question.

Guess there was no 'media training' back then.

 

[Datacipher]

Lendl d. McEnroe 6-4, 6-4, 7-6(8-6)

This ended McEnroe's 26 match win streak at the USO(he was the 3 time defending champion)

It was Lendl's 6th straight win over McEnroe.

Lendl won 110 points, McEnroe 99.

Lendl served at 53%(56 of 105)
McEnroe served at 49%(51 of 104)

Lendl won 47 of 56 points on 1st serve(84%)
He won 28 of 49 on 2nd(57%)

McEnroe won 36 of 51 points on 1st serve(70.5%)
He won 33 of 53 on 2nd(62%)

Lendl had 29 non service winners: 10 fh, 9 bh, 3 fhv, 4 bhv, 3 ov
McEnroe had 20: 1 fh, 5 bh, 9 fhv, 4 bhv, 1 ov

Lendl had 11 passing shot winners(4 fh, 7 bh)
McEnroe had 2, both bh

Lendl had 9 aces, 4 df's
McEnroe had 15 aces, 3 df's

Lendl had 19 unreturned serves, 2 I judged service winners
McEnroe had 20, one I judged a service winner

Lendl was 2 of 8 on break points
McEnroe was 0 of 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvn5oHDtEhY

stats from CBS

at 2-1 in the 3rd, McEnroe with 24 unforced errors, Lendl 17.

McEnroe served and stayed back on 16 2nd serves.

There's always something very telling to me, about how damaging Mcenroe's first serve could be in some of these early matches, and how, in the later years, even though Lendl had the same racquet to return with, and Mcenroe had switched to graphite, how he couldn't hurt Lendl (or others) the same way. Reminds me of just how good the Mcenroe serve was at it's best.

 

[Moose Malloy]

There's always something very telling to me, about how damaging Mcenroe's first serve could be in some of these early matches, and how, in the later years, even though Lendl had the same racquet to return with, and Mcenroe had switched to graphite, how he couldn't hurt Lendl (or others) the same way.

Here are ace counts for some 'graphite' Mac matches:

1983 Wimbledon, Mac d Lendl 7-6(7-5), 6-4, 6-4
17 aces

1984 USO, Mac d Connors 6-4 4-6 7-5 4-6 6-3
18 aces

1983 Dallas WCT Finals, Mac d Lendl 6-2 4-6 6-3 6-7 7-6
19 aces

 

[Datacipher]

Here are ace counts for some 'graphite' Mac matches:

1983 Wimbledon, Mac d Lendl 7-6(7-5), 6-4, 6-4
17 aces

1984 USO, Mac d Connors 6-4 4-6 7-5 4-6 6-3
18 aces

1983 Dallas WCT Finals, Mac d Lendl 6-2 4-6 6-3 6-7 7-6
19 aces

Good numbers all around....still, so surprising that he would get 15 or 17 aces in 3 sets against such great returners....have you got some high ace numbers from his late career? I just dont' remember him getting those kind of ace counts later on, though I certainly could be wrong.

 

[pmerk34]

Good numbers all around....still, so surprising that he would get 15 or 17 aces in 3 sets against such great returners....have you got some high ace numbers from his late career? I just dont' remember him getting those kind of ace counts later on, though I certainly could be wrong.

I remember reading an article in World Tennis magazine about Johns serving problems in 1988 it was I believe. At some tournament his first serve only hit 96 mph! He was able to get it back in to the 115 mph range. Don't know about the ace counts though

 

[kiki]

I remember about 1982 as the year Connors regained his old status,Vilas was a reborn player,lendl failed,Wilander emerged...and Mac had clearly the worst year since 1978, not winning anything big during that year.He said he feared Lendl´s big, confident groundies, and that he didn´t know how to face them...that can be seen at that USO SF, where I really pittied Mac.1983 would be a completley different story and Mac won much more than lost vs Lendl; he forgot about fears and started attacking the czeck from day 1, at Philadelphia, where he had his first win over Lendl in an official event (not exos) since 1980...

 

[Datacipher]

I remember reading an article in World Tennis magazine about Johns serving problems in 1988 it was I believe. At some tournament his first serve only hit 96 mph! He was able to get it back in to the 115 mph range. Don't know about the ace counts though

Yes, I think that was John Yandell. Though....not too sure about those radar timings....may have been radar inconsistencies, though the author believed modifcation of his backswing (back to the more compact form it had been earlier) did indeed help his speed, and I don't doubt it. Having said that, John's speed seemed pretty inconsistent afterward as well, and he never consistently hit anything close to 115mph on the tour radar by 1990....

For whatever reason though, the backswing, and quite possibly other problems, I do believe he lost some speed....

 

[juan guzman]

Lendl ended Mcenroes Open run of 25 match wins at the Open and Mc Enroe seemed almost helpless as Lendl flattened him for the sixth straight time.

Following that defeat ,The determined lefthander won in San Francisco,Sydney,Tokyo and Wembley as well as four Davis Cup singles victories,going into the masters with a string of 24 wins in recognised events.Lendl cleaned his clock again at the Masters routing him in 3 sets.

Mc Enroe was barely number 1 at the end of the year with an average of 122.58 and Connors 121.47.Lendl had an average of 115.00.

 

[krosero]

Sports Illustrated:

In the harsh light of reality—late Saturday afternoon, shadows falling, withering 90° heat—Lendl exposed the three-time defending champion's vulnerability to a sheer bare-knuckled slugger. In baseball parlance, Lendl took McEnroe downtown with his 6-4, 6-4, 7-6 victory right there in Mac's home ball park. In one respect McEnroe's game is all junk and bully—create openings and craft shots, vary the rhythm, kill the ump. But McEnroe's kit bag emanates from and is dependent upon the effectiveness of his side-kicking southpaw serve, which raises hell with most righthanders. A suspicion gaining credence on the tour is that if McEnroe were righthanded, he would be your basic everyday losing quarterfinalist.

McEnroe overcame Borg with his serve. He still befuddles Connors with his change of pace. But Lendl is of a different ilk. He whaled away at McEnroe's delivery, not only preventing any consistent Mac attack but also sending McEnroe reeling on his heels behind the baseline, uncertain and ultimately at the mercy of the Lendl forehand, surely the fiercest weapon in the game today. On Lendl's serve, McEnroe offered little retaliation. When Mac's returns weren't crisp and deep, when he simply flipped back all those spins and short angles, the "artistry" everyone raves about, Lendl jumped on the junk and swatted it off the premises. "He forces me to do things I don't like to do. I get disorganized," said McEnroe after the debacle.

Back then similar things were being said every time McEnroe lost to Lendl. One report in the media said that McEnroe simply did not have the weapons to deal with Lendl's aggression. (A little bit like after the '81 USO, many people said that Borg simply did not have the game to beat McEnroe). But then McEnroe started turning the rivalry around in Philadelphia in early '83 -- and that was while he was still using a wood racquet, though he soon went to a graphite.

Soon it became a rout in the other direction, with McEnroe rarely losing to Lendl.

 

[krosero]

Back when Federer started off 1-6 in his H2H with Nadal ('06 RG), I thought that must have been unique among great players. But I'd forgotten that McEnroe had nearly the same start against Lendl. He was 2-7 against Lendl after the January '83 Masters final, before he started turning it around.

In that Masters match, and the '82 USO semi, Newcombe kept noting in the booth how uncertain McEnroe was in his tactics. McEnroe was sometimes hitting aggressive returns but then running back to the baseline. To return some serves he tried retreating 20 feet behind the baseline but then moved up at other times. Sometimes he came in on second serves but other times he stayed back, which Newk thought was a problem for McEnroe because he couldn't win baseline rallies against Lendl. But he wasn't having great luck against Lendl's passes either.

(It reminds me a little bit of some things we've said on this board about Federer, with his diversity, trying to choose between baselining or net play, and often appearing uncertain, while Nadal knows exactly how he's going to play from match to match.)

Newk thought the solution was for McEnroe to simply pick one tactic and stick to it. In this case he thought McEnroe should just always be coming forward, always attack.

 

[jrepac]

Back when Federer started off 1-6 in his H2H with Nadal ('06 RG), I thought that must have been unique among great players. But I'd forgotten that McEnroe had nearly the same start against Lendl. He was 2-7 against Lendl after the January '83 Masters final, before he started turning it around.

In that Masters match, and the '82 USO semi, Newcombe kept noting in the booth how uncertain McEnroe was in his tactics. McEnroe was sometimes hitting aggressive returns but then running back to the baseline. To return some serves he tried retreating 20 feet behind the baseline but then moved up at other times. Sometimes he came in on second serves but other times he stayed back, which Newk thought was a problem for McEnroe because he couldn't win baseline rallies against Lendl. But he wasn't having great luck against Lendl's passes either.


Newk thought the solution was for McEnroe to simply pick one tactic and stick to it. In this case he thought McEnroe should just always be coming forward, always attack.

Unless he was on the attack, Mac was at a disadvantage vs. Lendl, no question. Even at times against Connors, for that matter--Mac could not just rest on his laurels--that's not his game. Mac was at his very best when he put the other guy under tremendous pressure. Problem with Lendl, was that Mac did not really faze him...Ivan would just try to hit through him (and at him). I do wonder if he would have done equally well had it been the FINAL rather than the semi; clearly, Ivan played more freely in the semi and wilted under the pressure in the final against the warhorse, Connors.

 

[pmerk34]

Sports Illustrated:

Back then similar things were being said every time McEnroe lost to Lendl. One report in the media said that McEnroe simply did not have the weapons to deal with Lendl's aggression. (A little bit like after the '81 USO, many people said that Borg simply did not have the game to beat McEnroe). But then McEnroe started turning the rivalry around in Philadelphia in early '83 -- and that was while he was still using a wood racquet, though he soon went to a graphite.

Soon it became a rout in the other direction, with McEnroe rarely losing to Lendl.

Mac actually credits Don Budge in part whom he wrote called Mac after another Lendl defeat and suggested Mac start approaching up the middle of the court as Lendl was killing him with angles. Mac beat Lendl to stop the losing streak and go on one of his own vs Ivan.

 

[krosero]

I do wonder if he would have done equally well had it been the FINAL rather than the semi; clearly, Ivan played more freely in the semi and wilted under the pressure in the final against the warhorse, Connors.

It's a fair question, Lendl might have done less well in the final. On the other hand Lendl had loads of confidence against McEnroe. He had even beaten Mac already at Flushing Meadow the year before, in a Davis Cup tie.

Mac actually credits Don Budge in part whom he wrote called Mac after another Lendl defeat and suggested Mac start approaching up the middle of the court as Lendl was killing him with angles. Mac beat Lendl to stop the losing streak and go on one of his own vs Ivan.

He does mention that tip in his book. And a report in the New York Times actually mentions Budge and a bunch of other people who were giving McEnroe advice on how to beat Lendl.

 

[krosero]

Here's some excerpts from the Times during the Philadelphia tournament where McEnroe finally broke the losing streak.

They mention Budge and McEnroe meeting.

________________________________

The day before the final:

PHILADELPHIA, Feb. 5— Everyone has a piece of advice for John McEnroe these days on how he can beat Ivan Lendl, who will again be McEnroe's opponent in Sunday afternoon's final of the United States Pro Indoor championships.

After the top-seeded McEnroe defeated Tim Mayotte, 6-3, 6-3, in the afternoon semifinal before a crowd of 9,820 at the Spectrum, Don Budge offered him a tactical tip.

''I'll try,'' McEnroe laughingly told the former Grand Slam champion, who has seen some of the more recent Lendl-McEnroe mismatches, including Lendl's 6-4, 6-4, 6-2 victory in the Volvo Masters final at Madison Square Garden several weeks ago.

''Well, you can't possibly do any worse,'' Budge said.

.... Neither Budge nor McEnroe would disclose what was said in their brief meeting. But after having lost seven straight matches and 19 of of 20 sets to Lendl since his last victory over the Czechoslovak in the 1980 United States Open quarterfinals, McEnroe seemed to realize that he needed a new approach.

''I'm going to try to attack him a lot more than I have the last couple times,'' he said. ''If I lose, at least I'll lose a little bit faster.''

.... Mayotte, who reached the semifinals at Wimbledon last summer, losing to McEnroe, is a power hitter in the Lendl mold. ''McEnroe plays on feel,'' he said. ''Lendl hits the ball so hard its difficult to feel around with him. A player like Connors does well against Lendl because he's matching fire with fire. But a guy like McEnroe, who likes to feel around the court and move you around, Lendl's just too tough for that.''

Asked what McEnroe needed to handle Lendl, Mayotte said: ''What I learned about playing Lendl was mostly from Vitas Gerulaitis. It's a matter of getting to the net as quickly as possible and not allowing him to get into rhythm. Attack his backhand and try to get all over the net and put volleys away. There's really no other way to play him, especially indoors. You also have to take advantage of his second serve and come to net.''

_________________________________

And after the final:

PHILADELPHIA, Feb. 6— When Ivan Lendl's final forehand sailed long, John McEnroe threw up his arms, flung his racquet in the air and let out a huge howl, as if he had just shed an evil spirit. And with a 4-6, 7-6, 6-4, 6-3 victory over Lendl in the final of the United States Pro Indoor Tennis Championships today, maybe he had.

After having lost 19 of 20 previous sets and seven consecutive matches to Lendl over the last two and a half years, McEnroe returned to his aggressively resilient roots, ended Lendl's 66-match indoor winning streak and successfully defended his men's singles title.

''It was an important win for me,'' the top-seeded McEnroe said after registering his 31st victory in his last 32 Grand Prix matches and collecting the $54,000 first prize. ''I'm not going to pretend that it was a run-of-the-mill-type thing. I needed to win.''

Only two weeks ago, Lendl had drubbed McEnroe, 6-4, 6-4, 6-2, in the final of the Volvo Masters. Today, heeding the advice of friends who had urged him to become more aggressive, McEnroe minimized the might of Lendl's serve and penetrating passing shots by repeatedly attacking Lendl's second serve and punching through first volleys.

Where Lendl had totally dominated the rhythm and pace of their rallies in the Masters, McEnroe controlled the last three sets today, winning a fiercely fought second set tie-breaker, 9-7, after Lendl had saved 2 set points serving at 2-5 and 3 more in the tie-breaker.

''I played better as the match wore on,'' McEnroe said of the three-hour struggle before a crowd of 13,391 at the Spectrum. ''Being aggressive, that's my game deep down, and that's the way to play him, too. I just needed some people to tell me over and over and bang it into my head. I was stubborn to think I could play it from the backcourt and mix it up. That's not the way. The more you give him time, the more grooved he gets.''

McEnroe rushed the net 106 times, a significantly high total, and the extent of his effectiveness was reflected in the number of points won with that tactic. In the first set, with Lendl saving 3 break points and breaking McEnroe in the fifth game, McEnroe won only 14 of 32 points at the net. But over the last three sets he won 48 of the 74 points at the net, including an angled forehand half-volley dink winner that preceded Lendl's last forehand error under pressure.

....McEnroe, who with Peter Fleming lost in the doubles final, 6-4, 7-6, to Steve Denton and Kevin Curren, admitted afterward that the loss in the Masters had ''opened my eyes.'' He had always attacked second serves, he said, but had got out of the habit in recent years because he wanted to prove he could play from the backcourt against such baseliners as Bjorn Borg, Lendl and Guillermo Vilas.

Lendl's reliance on his strong first serve can have its disadvantages. That was the case in the United States Open final last September against Connors, who attacked and won 42 of 63 points at the net. Today, Lendl won only 24 of 32 points on his second serve.

In recent weeks, McEnroe said he had received much advice about how to play Lendl from friends and ''even people I didn't know.'' One fan sent him a cable, he said, but McEnroe could not decipher the strategy.

''I realized myself that if I was going to lose, at least I was going to lose the way I should, at my best,'' he said. ''I wasn't going to lose by playing his game.''

 

[Datacipher]

It's a fair question, Lendl might have done less well in the final. On the other hand Lendl had loads of confidence against McEnroe. He had even beaten Mac already at Flushing Meadow the year before, in a Davis Cup tie.

He does mention that tip in his book. And a report in the New York Times actually mentions Budge and a bunch of other people who were giving McEnroe advice on how to beat Lendl.

Don Budge was reported to give Mac..and some other players unsolicited advice over the years...presumably simply because he loved the game. Mac has said he always took it seriously out of respect, and in retospect, it seems clear that Budge was indeed wise, and maybe ahead of his time. He also would always tell Mac that he needed to do sit-ups and work his abs and get his core stronger....thing that wouldn't become buzzwords until the 90's.

Of course, I remember another story, where Mac said Billy Jean King told him he needed to do some stretching....Mac still in his prime, thought "why should I listen to this old lady!?" lol.....BJK is one of the few women who's tennis advice, I'd take extremely seriously regardless of your gender....

 

[Datacipher]

.... Mayotte, who reached the semifinals at Wimbledon last summer, losing to McEnroe, is a power hitter in the Lendl mold. ''McEnroe plays on feel,'' he said. ''Lendl hits the ball so hard its difficult to feel around with him. A player like Connors does well against Lendl because he's matching fire with fire. But a guy like McEnroe, who likes to feel around the court and move you around, Lendl's just too tough for that.''

Asked what McEnroe needed to handle Lendl, Mayotte said: ''What I learned about playing Lendl was mostly from Vitas Gerulaitis. It's a matter of getting to the net as quickly as possible and not allowing him to get into rhythm. Attack his backhand and try to get all over the net and put volleys away. There's really no other way to play him, especially indoors. You also have to take advantage of his second serve and come to net.''
''

LOL! With all due respect to Mayotte, who seems to have been a good guy, and a good player.....I could match Mayotte's record against Lendl!

 

[kiki]

LOL! With all due respect to Mayotte, who seems to have been a good guy, and a good player.....I could match Mayotte's record against Lendl!

Tim did not ahve the talent to do it, but he was completley right.I´addition that you also must deprive Lendl from the angles he loves.Gerulaitis beat Lendl because he did that sistematichally.plus,Mac had that left handed serve that Vitas didn´t, so his chances were better.

It´s curious that Mac had beaten Lendl in the Chicago exhibition played just before the Masters, both, in 1981 and 1982.he won their amtches easily...and then got his ass kicked by Lendl at both Masters ( those exos in Chicago micht have bbeen the very best of all time).

 

[krosero]

The serve right at the start of this clip is 115 mph per Trabert: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhnrQkdUUvE

The commentators said that CBS had a JUGSpeed gun. We've talked a lot about various systems used to measure serves over the years, so FWIW, that was the system used by CBS in these matches.

 

[krosero]

Lendl won 47 of 56 points on 1st serve(84%)
He won 28 of 49 on 2nd(57%)

McEnroe won 36 of 51 points on 1st serve(70.5%)
He won 33 of 53 on 2nd(62%)

Compare with their '87 USO QF which Lendl also took in straight sets:

Lendl on 1st serve - 77%
Lendl on 2nd - 79%

Mac on 1st - 73%
Mac on 2nd - 47%

McEnroe served and stayed back on 16 2nd serves, which was a rather startling sight, he was really spooked by the Lendl return(but if you look at the stats he won 62% of 2nd serves, should have just stuck with the gameplan)

Yeah 62% is a good number on the second serve, and a bit surprising considering how indecisive McEnroe looked.

 

[krosero]

Some other interesting comments from Trabert.

He compared Lendl to Budge and Kramer in the way he could overpower people.

When asked whether McEnroe or Lendl had better court coverage, he said McEnroe was clearly faster.

He said Lendl had the hardest forehand he’d ever seen, more aggressive by far than Borg’s and a better shot.

 

[Datacipher]

The serve right at the start of this clip is 115 mph per Trabert: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhnrQkdUUvE
.

Heh, now take a look at Lendl's serve down the middle at about 50 sec. You get a nice ground view. Ask yourself, gee, was that ~115mph? Is THAT SPEED many of Roddick's kick serves are moving?? Is that 10-15mph slower than Hewitt's top end??

 

[Datacipher]

Some other interesting comments from Trabert.
.

I miss Trabert greatly. In terms of mechanics....he was LIGHT YEARS beyond any other commentator I've heard. In terms of general insight on the players and matches, he was pretty good as well. He and Somerall were an excellent excellent team. First rate all around.

 

[Moose Malloy]

The serve right at the start of this clip is 115 mph per Trabert: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhnrQkdUUvE

The commentators said that CBS had a JUGSpeed gun. We've talked a lot about various systems used to measure serves over the years, so FWIW, that was the system used by CBS in these matches.

Lendl had a 118 mph ace at 3-2. Thought it was interesting that Summerall kept saying "approximately --- mph." Guess they weren't sure how accurate it really was.

Yeah 62% is a good number on the second serve, and a bit surprising considering how indecisive McEnroe looked.

I was pretty surprised by the serve numbers, 70% 1st serve pts won, 62% 2nd serve pts won, 15 aces & Mac somehow loses in straight sets. Weird.

 

[kiki]

in 1982, it was utterly clear that Mac´s problem with Lendl ( as it had been in 81) was just menthal.He reversed it in 83 and 84...and then, felt again from 85 onwards.

 

[krosero]

I was pretty surprised by the serve numbers, 70% 1st serve pts won, 62% 2nd serve pts won, 15 aces & Mac somehow loses in straight sets. Weird.

Problem was he couldn't break Lendl. But McEnroe's serve in itself was not a problem. As Data said earlier, McEnroe was serving effectively in those years. After '85 he did serve less effectively.

I think the real problem in these early matches was that McEnroe wasn't attacking Lendl's second serve relentlessly the way he did later. That's always a key factor mentioned by commentators and writers after McEnroe started beating Lendl. And you remember what he did to Lendl's second serves in the '84 USO final.

In that final Lendl served at 64%, and I got the impression he was trying not to let McEnroe see too many second serves, even if it meant taking something off the first ball. I think in that way Lendl was adjusting to McEnroe's aggression. When they met at the '87 USO, Lendl's percentage was high again: 63%. But look at Lendl's percentage in this '82 match: just 53%. At the Masters in January it was only 47%. In these early matches, while McEnroe was not a problem for him, it seems like Lendl is just going for his first serve, and not worried about what will happen to him if he misses it.

 

[Moose Malloy]

here's a clip of the rather strange end to the match(a CBS cameraman runs onto the court at 6-6 in the tiebreak, thinking the match was over. Mac was not pleased)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtwSnzKk-XA&feature=g-all-u&context=G19449FAAAAAAAABAA