Stats for 1984 USO Final (McEnroe-Lendl)

[Moose Malloy]

McEnroe d Lendl 6-3, 6-4, 6-1

My Stats:

McEnroe had 28 non service winners: 6 fh, 6 bh, 6 fhv, 9 bhv, 1 ov
Lendl had 20: 4 fh, 8 bh, 4 fhv, 4 ov

winners by set:
Mac - 5, 12, 11
Lendl - 7, 7, 6

Mac had 7 passing shot winners, Lendl 12

Mac had 8 aces, 6 doubles
Lendl had 3 aces, 1 double

Mac was 45 of 73 on 1st serves, or 62%
Lendl was 53 of 83, or 64%

Mac was 5 of 7 on break points, Lendl 0 of 2

Mac had 25 unreturned serves, of which I judged 1 to be a service winner
Lendl had 12 unreturned serves, none of which I judged to be a service winner

 

[pmerk34]

McEnroe d Lendl 6-3, 6-4, 6-1

My Stats:

McEnroe had 28 non service winners: 6 fh, 6 bh, 6 fhv, 9 bhv, 1 ov
Lendl had 20: 4 fh, 8 bh, 4 fhv, 4 ov

winners by set:
Mac - 5, 12, 11
Lendl - 7, 7, 6

Mac had 7 passing shot winners, Lendl 12

Mac had 8 aces, 6 doubles
Lendl had 3 aces, 1 double

Mac was 45 of 73 on 1st serves, or 62%
Lendl was 53 of 83, or 64%

Mac was 5 of 7 on break points, Lendl 0 of 2

Mac had 25 unreturned serves, of which I judged 1 to be a service winner
Lendl had 12 unreturned serves, none of which I judged to be a service winner

Not exactly a classic.

 

[heathcliff]

McEnroe d Lendl 6-3, 6-4, 6-1

My Stats:

McEnroe had 28 non service winners: 6 fh, 6 bh, 6 fhv, 9 bhv, 1 ov
Lendl had 20: 4 fh, 8 bh, 4 fhv, 4 ov

winners by set:
Mac - 5, 12, 11
Lendl - 7, 7, 6

Mac had 7 passing shot winners, Lendl 12

Mac had 8 aces, 6 doubles
Lendl had 3 aces, 1 double

Mac was 45 of 73 on 1st serves, or 62%
Lendl was 53 of 83, or 64%

Mac was 5 of 7 on break points, Lendl 0 of 2

Mac had 25 unreturned serves, of which I judged 1 to be a service winner
Lendl had 12 unreturned serves, none of which I judged to be a service winner

hi! do you know how long the 85-final between them lasted?

 

[krosero]

An excerpt from the Washington Post with stats:

At his best, Lendl looks stolid. Today, he looked leaden. It was hard to know whether that was the result of his five-set semifinal against Pat Cash Saturday afternoon or the contrast with McEnroe's feathery touch. McEnroe defeated him in 1 hour 47 minutes -- seven minutes less than it took Martina Navratilova to beat Chris Evert Lloyd in three sets for the women's title Saturday.

McEnroe's plan was simple: to attack at will, as he as in every match against Lendl since the 1983 U.S. Pro Indoor Championships in Philadelphia, where he ended Lendl's six-match domination of him. Before that match, McEnroe sought out Don Budge and asked for advice. "Attack," he was told. "Be relentless."

Now, McEnroe has won six of their seven matches this year and 11 of the 20 in their careers.

He attacked Lendl's serve with a vengeance, coming in behind second serves, dominating the net. McEnroe broke Lendl once in each of the first two sets, then held at love in the next game. He came to the net 54 times and won 37 of the points.

"If I hit my shot well enough," McEnroe said, "it doesn't matter what the other guy's got."

His serve was indecipherable. When he missed his first serve (he made 61 percent), Lendl was befuddled by the second. Time and again on crucial points, McEnroe jammed him with serves into the body. The backhand return invariably went wide.

In the third and mercifully quick set (26 minutes), Lendl managed only four points off McEnroe's serve. He was never able to break him.

The Post also reports that Lendl won 16 points overall in the third set, “seven in a deuce game that he lost and four in the game he won.”

The Globe and Mail:

Awesome is an understatement.

Just a shade less stupendous than his straight set defeat of Jimmy Connors at Wimbledon when he tossed in a stunning 78 per cent of his first serves and committed just two errors.

Yesterday, undoubtedly bone- weary from a gruelling five set Saturday semi-final duel with Connors, the defending two-time Open champion, that lasted nearly four hours and ended after 11 p.m., McEnroe's serve fell to 61 per cent. And he made eight unforced errors, four off each side.

Obviously eager to wrap up his fourth title as rapidly as possible, he scampered into the net 54 times and punched, sliced, chipped, smashed and dinked 37 volleys for winners.

The win lifted McEnroe to 11-9 against Lendl (but 2-3 on hard court). It evened their Slam meetings at 3-3 (and 1-1 in finals).

 

[krosero]

hi! do you know how long the 85-final between them lasted?

I ran a search for that match and all I saw was this: "Lendl, runner-up in the last three finals, won 7-6, 6-3, 6-4 in about 2 1/2 hours.” (The Telegraph)

 

[krosero]

So it was not a classic, not in the sense of a close match. But when Federer swept Roddick at the 2007 Australian Open, John Lloyd compared the performance to this one by McEnroe.

I saw it for the first time last year, on YouTube, though it's not there anymore (all USO footage is at risk of getting taken down there).

I was most impressed with the way McEnroe took Lendl's serves on the rise and drove them into the corners, before Lendl had even recovered fully from his service motion.

Lendl put his racquet on some of these returns but was robbed of time so effectively that he could not put them back in play.

I've seen McEnroe do similar things with returns a few times before 1984, and a few times after, but not like in this match.

 

[krosero]

Moose, I was interested in what CBS was doing with their "winners," whether those included service and if so, whether they included judgment calls (ie, service winners); and if they excluded service, whether judgment calls were employed or CBS just stuck to clean non-service winners.

I don't know your count as of love-3 in the third, but CBS had McEnroe at 26 winners and Lendl at 20.

To me it looks like those winners can't be restricted to clean non-service winners. McEnroe still had 6 more of those before the end, and Lendl 3 (I counted those before our project began, going on a lifelong assumption that "winner" simply meant a clean non-service winner). That would raise the CBS count at least to 32 for Mac and 23 for Lendl. But you counted only 28 clean non-service winners by Mac and only 20 by Lendl. So the CBS winners look like they include something else.

I just can't tell what that is. Is it just aces? Or perhaps, the winners don't include service, but they do include judgment calls? Levin said that starting around 1983 there have been judgment calls on shots that are returned out to the stands or merely grazed by a racquet's edge.

All these numbers are close enough that I doubt we'll know for sure what they refer to, but did you see anything else that made it clear?

 

[heathcliff]

I ran a search for that match and all I saw was this: "Lendl, runner-up in the last three finals, won 7-6, 6-3, 6-4 in about 2 1/2 hours.” (The Telegraph)

okay, thanks!

 

[Moose Malloy]

Moose, I was interested in what CBS was doing with their "winners," whether those included service and if so, whether they included judgment calls (ie, service winners); and if they excluded service, whether judgment calls were employed or CBS just stuck to clean non-service winners.

I don't know your count as of love-3 in the third, but CBS had McEnroe at 26 winners and Lendl at 20.

CBS's stats have stumped me lately. I mentioned I did the 1st set of Mac-Mats '85 recently, & their numbers for Mac(& very early on, only a few games worth) were ridiculously high(& he had very few clean winners), no way could that high number just be explained by nicked balls or service winners being included.

Am doing Cash-Lendl '84 right now, and their numbers for Cash seem plausible compared to my counts, but their numbers for Lendl are lower than mine, so who knows what they were doing then.

And their stats for '84 USO Final don't make sense to me either(that's why I didn't even bother to mention them in my post)

 

[AlpineCadet]

Moose Malloy, you are cordially invited to join us in: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=143741&goto=newpost

 

[Moose Malloy]

I was most impressed with the way McEnroe took Lendl's serves on the rise and drove them into the corners, before Lendl had even recovered fully from his service motion.

Lendl put his racquet on some of these returns but was robbed of time so effectively that he could not put them back in play.

I've seen McEnroe do similar things with returns a few times before 1984, and a few times after, but not like in this match.

I wish I took track of how many times Mac did this(sometimes on 1st serve!), I don't think I've ever seen anyone do this consistently before - this wasn't chip & charge, but rip & charge.

I've seen a lot of Mac matches, & I don't think I've ever seen him use this play as much before.

I prefer this match to the '84 W final.

 

[abmk]

I watched the match for the 1st time and took down stats.

Aces :

Mcenroe : 8, Lendl : 3 (one 2nd serve ace for Mac in the 1st set)

Service winners:

Mcenroe : 1, Lendl : 0

DFs:

Mcenroe : 6, Lendl: 1

FHW:

Mcenroe : 6 (including 2 passing shots, 1 lob and 1 return winner)
Lendl : 4 (including 2 passing shots and 2 lobs)

BHW:

Mcenroe: 6 (including 1 return passing shot, 3 passing shots)
Lendl : 8 (including 3 return passing shots and 4 passing shots)

FH wing UEs:

Mcenroe : 5 (including 1 overhead error)
Lendl : 2

BH wing UEs:

Mcenroe : 4 (including one return error and 1 volley error)
Lendl : 3 (including 2 volley errors)

FH wing FEs:

Mcenroe : 7, Lendl : 17

BH wing FEs:

Mcenroe :17, Lendl : 32

FHV :

Mcenroe : 6, Lendl : 4

BHV :

Mcenroe : 9, Lendl : 0

OH:

Mcenroe : 1, Lendl : 4

Net points:

Mcenroe : 62/80 (77.5%), Lendl : 23/39 (59%)

SnV points:

Mcenroe : 43/53(81.13%), Lendl : 15/25(60%)

out of these:
SnV points on 2nd serve:
Mcenroe : 8/11, Lendl : 0/2

Unreturned serves(apart from aces and service winners):

1st serve:
Mcenroe : 19, Lendl : 9

2nd serve:
Mcenroe: 6, Lendl: 3


All unreturned serves:

1st serve :
Mcenroe : 7+1+19 = 27
Lendl : 3+0+9 = 12

2nd serve :
Mcenroe : 1+0+6 = 7
Lendl : 0+0+3 = 3

Total unreturned serves :
Mcenroe : 34/73 (46.57%)
Lendl : 15/83 (18.07%)

*(# of serves from the 1st post of the thread)

BP chances:
Mcenroe : 5/7, Lendl : 0/2

Games with BP chances:
Mcenroe : 5/6, Lendl : 0/1

Winners:

Mcenroe : 37, Lendl : 23

UEs:

Mcenroe : 15, Lendl: 6

Forced errors :

Mcenroe : 24, Lendl : 49

Points :

Mcenroe : 92, Lendl : 62

I am missing 2 points :
2nd set, 0-1, 0-0, Mac serving , Lendl won that point
3rd set, 1-0, 0-0 , Mac serving, Lendl won that point

So it should be really be : Mcenroe with 92 points and Lendl with 64 points.

 

[pc1]

I watched the match for the 1st time and took down stats.

Final stats coming up after set-wise stats.

Looking forward to it.

I'm curious if McEnroe played as well as I remember while watching it. It would have been interesting who would have been number one if Lendl won that match.

I remember I was there with my wife and a friend of mine. My friend was rooting for Lendl. He always picked the losing side so I knew Lendl was going to lose before the match. I'm sort of joking but he did have a way of picking the loser.

 

[abmk]

Set by set stats :

Aces :

Mcenroe : 4,2,2 -- total = 8
Lendl : 3,0,0 -- total = 3

Service winners:

Mcenroe : 1,0,0 -- total = 1
Lendl : 0,0,0 -- total = 0

DFs:

Mcenroe : 1,4,1 -- total = 6
Lendl: 0,0,1 -- total = 1

FHW:

Mcenroe : 0,3,3 -- total = 6
Lendl : 3,0,1 -- total = 4

BHW:

Mcenroe: 0,2,4 -- total = 6
Lendl : 2,4,2 -- total = 8

FH wing UEs:

Mcenroe : 2,2,2 -- total = 5
Lendl : 1,0,1 -- total = 2

BH wing UEs:

Mcenroe : 2,1,1 -- total = 4
Lendl : 0,2,1 -- total = 3

FH wing FEs:

Mcenroe : 1,5,1 -- total = 7
Lendl : 8,4,5 -- total = 17

BH wing FEs:

Mcenroe : 5,7,5 -- total = 17
Lendl : 11,13,8 -- total = 32

FHV :

Mcenroe : 3,0,3 -- total = 6
Lendl : 1,2,1 -- total = 4

BHV :

Mcenroe : 2,6,1 -- total = 9
Lendl : 0,0,0 --- total = 0

OH:

Mcenroe : 0,1,0 -- total = 1
Lendl : 1,2,1 -- total = 4

Net points:

Mcenroe : 21/31,26/29,15/20 -- total = 62/80
Lendl : 5/7, 12/15,6/17 -- total = 23/39

SnV points:

Mcenroe : 16/22, 17/19, 10/12 -- total = 43/53
Lendl : 0/0,10/13,5/12 -- total = 15/25

out of these:
SnV points on 2nd serve:
Mcenroe : 6/7, 0/1,2/3 -- total = 8/11
Lendl : 0/0,0/1,0/1 -- total = 0/2

Unreturned serves(apart from aces and service winners):

1st serve:
Mcenroe : 5,10,4 -- total = 19
Lendl : 2,5,2 -- total = 9

2nd serve:
Mcenroe: 4,1,1 -- total = 6
Lendl: 0,1,2 -- total = 3

BP chances:
Mcenroe : 1/1,1/3,3/3 -- total = 5/7
Lendl : 0/0,0/2,0/0 -- total = 0/2

Games with BP chances:
Mcenroe : 1/1,1/2,3/3 -- total = 5/6
Lendl : 0/0,0/1,0/0 -- total = 0/1


Winners:

Mcenroe : 10 ,14, 13 -- total = 37
Lendl : 10,8,5 -- total = 23

UEs:

Mcenroe : 5,7,3 -- total = 15
Lendl: 1,2,3 -- total = 6

Forced errors :

Mcenroe : 6,12,6 -- total = 24
Lendl : 19,17,13 -- total = 49

Points :

Mcenroe : 30,33,29 -- total = 92
Lendl : 21,27,14 -- total = 62

I am missing 2 points :
2nd set, 0-1, 0-0, Mac serving , Lendl won that point
3rd set, 1-0, 0-0 , Mac serving, Lendl won that point

So for Lendl, it really should be : 21,28,15. Total = 64.

 

[pc1]

It's amazing that Lendl only made 6 unforced errors and got crushed.

 

[abmk]

Other stats :

1. Commentators mentioned that until then, Mac had only lost 14/170 sets in 84
2. That he was 72/138 at the net in the semi (# would be more if counted correctly - i.e. including SnV /net points for unreturned serves)
3. Lendl was 19/35 at the net vs Cash
4. At 2-3,15 all, Lendl serving, 1st serve % : Mac : 45%, Lendl : 55%
5. 3rd set, 0 all, 30-15, Lendl serving, 1st serve % : Mac : 57, Lendl : 66%
6. Only one slight discrepancy from Moose's stats above : He has 25 unreturned serves for Mac, including one service winner. I have 26, including one service winner.

The winner count is a mess as Krosero/Moose have discovered. So not going to mention those.
Net stats again vary since they don't count SnV points for unreturned serves.

 

[abmk]

Comments :

1. Yes, firstly, the low UE count for Lendl. Lets that get that out of the way. That wasn't because Lendl was playing particularly clean. Just that Mac was relentlessly putting pressure on him by dictating and approaching the net a lot. There's very less chance of Lendl making UEs in that scenario.

2. 1st set really felt about even , except for that one break by Mac.

3. After facing 2 BPs in the 1st service game in the 2nd set, Mac raised his level and was unstoppable after that.

4. The amount of pressure Mac was putting on Lendl was huge, especially on 2nd serves. He was taking clean , early swings at them, many a times hitting and charging the net. He sometimes did that on the 1st serve as well.

5. Lendl started to SnV quite a bit from 2nd set onwards to keep the net away from Mcenroe. He tried staying back, he trying SnVing, nothing worked particularly well.
What he really needed was to return and pass well, that he was not able to do.

6. The 3rd set in particular was a blitz from Mac, 3 breaks of the Lendl serve.

7. At 0-1, 2nd set, Lendl serving, he hit a FH out on BP, was clearly out, but was called in. No wonder Mac used to be pissed at umpires and linespersons.

8. It was said that if Mac's 1st serve % (with normal serving) was above 60%, he was near unbeatable. Well , he was 62% here. He wasn't broken once, Lendl had just 2 BPs in one game. Mac varied his serve and used the body serve really well.

In the semi, he was at 65%, but Connors ran him close with an ATG display of returning and passing.

9. I'd be interested to see Lendl's success on 2nd serve. I'm pretty sure it'd be below 45% and possibly even 40%, given how much Mac was attacking it.
Lendl took off some pace to get a higher% of 1st serves in -- while Snving from 2nd set onwards.

10. There were a couple of unbelievable BH stab volleys from Mac. They were short , reflex ones -- brilliant and need to be seen to be believed. He won both those points

11. Lendl was competent at the net, but obviously not near Mac's level. By today's standards, I think Lendl would be considered an all-courter.

 

[pc1]

Other stats :

1. Commentators mentioned that until then, Mac had only lost 14/170 sets in 84
2. That he was 72/138 at the net in the semi (# would be more if counted correctly - i.e. including SnV /net points for unreturned serves)
3. Lendl was 19/35 at the net vs Cash
4. At 2-3,15 all, Lendl serving, 1st serve % : Mac : 45%, Lendl : 55%
5. 3rd set, 0 all, 30-15, Lendl serving, 1st serve % : Mac : 57, Lendl : 66%
6. Only one slight discrepancy from Moose's stats above : He has 25 unreturned serves for Mac, including one service winner. I have 26, including one service winner.

The winner count is a mess as Krosero/Moose have discovered. So not going to mention those.
Net stats again vary since they don't count SnV points for unreturned serves.

In 1984, according to my stats McEnroe won 195 sets and lost 23. He won 65.32% of his games for the year.

Comments :

1. Yes, firstly, the low UE count for Lendl. Lets that get that out of the way. That wasn't because Lendl was playing particularly clean. Just that Mac was relentlessly putting pressure on him by dictating and approaching the net a lot. There's very less chance of Lendl making UEs in that scenario.

2. 1st set really felt about even , except for that one break by Mac.

3. After facing 2 BPs in the 1st service game in the 2nd set, Mac raised his level and was unstoppable after that.

4. The amount of pressure Mac was putting on Lendl was huge, especially on 2nd serves. He was taking clean , early swings at them, many a times hitting and charging the net. He sometimes did that on the 1st serve as well.

5. Lendl started to SnV quite a bit in the 2nd set to keep the net away from Mcenroe. He tried staying back, he trying SnVing, nothing worked particular well.
What he really needed was to return and pass well, that he was not able to do.

6. The 3rd set in particular was a blitz from Mac, 3 breaks of the Lendl serve.

7. At 0-1, 2nd set, Lendl serving, he hit a FH out on BP, was clearly out, but was called in. No wonder Mac used to be pissed at umpires and linespersons.

8. It was said that if Mac's 1st serve % (with normal serving) was above 60%, he was near unbeatable. Well , he was 62% here. He wasn't broken once, Lendl had just 2 BPs in one game. Mac varied his serve and used the body serve really well.

9. I'd be interested to see Lendl's success on 2nd serve. I'm pretty sure it'd be below 45% and possibly even 40%, given how much Mac was attacking it.

Lendl had great passing shot and an excellent return but I really don't think his return was on the level of a prime or peak Connors but Lendl did have the great serving game. Connors could take McEnroe's serve early and hurt McEnroe more than Lendl could imo.

 

[abmk]

In 1984, according to my stats McEnroe won 195 sets and lost 23. He won 65.32% of his games for the year.



Lendl had great passing shot and an excellent return but I really don't think his return was on the level of a prime or peak Connors but Lendl did have the great serving game. Connors could take McEnroe's serve early and hurt McEnroe more than Lendl could imo.

See my comments. regarding the returning and passing.
Yeah, Mac's 84 is possibly the best year in terms of points/games dominance.

 

[pc1]

See my comments. regarding the returning and passing.
Yeah, Mac's 84 is possibly the best year in terms of points/games dominance.

I meant that in response to your comment on the returning and passing. It was an excellent point you made.

 

[abmk]

I meant that in response to your comment on the returning and passing. It was an excellent point you made.

oh ok, got it.

 

[Moose Malloy]

Great work @abmk

77% at net might be the best % I've seen for Mac. I think the previous high I had for him was 76% vs Arias at 84 RG. Guess I need to do his net stats for the semis at some point.

That is a remarkable diff in unreturned serve %, you wouldn't think Lendl would be that low with his reputation for big serving. Will look if there was that big a gap in any of the other matches they played vs each other that I did stats for. That sort of gap was more like the diff between mac and Connors.

CBS had Lendl 19/35 at net vs Cash? Weird, I had him at 11/14. Cash was not as relentlessly aggressive in this one as Mac (commentators were surprised at how often he stayed back), so Lendl didn't really feel the need to take the net away from him.

As far as Lendl being an all courter by today's standard, you could say that about a lot of 80s players. I watched Becker vs Gilbert 87 USO recently and Gilbert came to net a lot. Go figure.

I'm thinking of tracking chip and charge in some matches in the future btw. Could be an interesting stat.

 

[abmk]

Great work @abmk

77% at net might be the best % I've seen for Mac. I think the previous high I had for him was 76% vs Arias at 84 RG. Guess I need to do his net stats for the semis at some point.

That is a remarkable diff in unreturned serve %, you wouldn't think Lendl would be that low with his reputation for big serving. Will look if there was that big a gap in any of the other matches they played vs each other that I did stats for. That sort of gap was more like the diff between mac and Connors.

CBS had Lendl 19/35 at net vs Cash? Weird, I had him at 11/14. Cash was not as relentlessly aggressive in this one as Mac (commentators were surprised at how often he stayed back), so Lendl didn't really feel the need to take the net away from him.

As far as Lendl being an all courter by today's standard, you could say that about a lot of 80s players. I watched Becker vs Gilbert 87 USO recently and Gilbert came to net a lot. Go figure.

I'm thinking of tracking chip and charge in some matches in the future btw. Could be an interesting stat.

Yes, 77% at the net is a pretty high # when the # of approaches is that high (which was usually the case with Mac) . Wim 84 final might come close, if I had to guess.

Yes, the difference in unreturned serve % is pretty high, even taking into account that Mac was SnVing quite a bit more. Even I was thinking the gap was more like the gap b/w Mac and Connors. Mac returned really well in this match. I think he and Edberg might be 2 of the most under-rated returners.

@NonP , you might be interested in the unreturned serves stat for this match.

As far as Lendl at the net vs Cash is concerned, that's what the commentator mentioned. I am yet to watch that match in full. Have seen highlights and in particular remember the lob that Lendl hit to save MP.

As far as the all-courter thing goes, haven't watched much of Gilbert tbh.
I need to watch more matches of Lendl at the USO/indoors (my initial impression was he mainly came to the net on grass only). Similarly for someone like Wilander. (at various stages of his career in this case)
One thing is for sure, Connors was an all-courter and came to the net quite a bit on every surface.


yes, tracking chip & charge in some matches could be interesting. The problem is keeping track of so many things in one go. (Don't really feel like watching a match twice in a short interval of time just for the stats)

 

[krosero]

All unreturned serves:

Mcenroe : 34/73 (46.57%)
Lendl : 15/83 (18.07%)

Lendl's rate had been exactly the same, 18.1%, in their RG final a couple of months earlier. Mac in that final was 22.6%.

 

[krosero]

Lendl’s worst Slam defeats:

6 games against Clerc (1978 RG)

6 games against Gerulaitis (1979 RG)

6 games against Tanner (1979 USO)

8 games against McNamara (1979 W)

8 games against McEnroe (1984 USO)

9 games against Wilander (1983 AO)

10 games against Edberg (1990 W)

10 games against Edberg (1991 USO)

10 games against Karbacher (1994 USO) (retired in third set)

 

[Moose Malloy]

Lendl's rate had been exactly the same, 18.1%, in their RG final a couple of months earlier. Mac in that final was 22.6%.

In their 1982 USO meeting, Mac was at 33%, Lendl at 27%.

Thought it was interesting that Mac was 0 for 2 on bp's in that match while Lendl was 0 for 2 in the 84 Final.

Lendl had a rate of 30% vs Cash in the 84 SF.

It looks like Mac's 46% in this match may be pretty high for this era, which speaks to how well he was serving.

 

[abmk]

Lendl's rate had been exactly the same, 18.1%, in their RG final a couple of months earlier. Mac in that final was 22.6%.

ok. That seems to be on expected lines.

 

[pc1]

In their 1982 USO meeting, Mac was at 33%, Lendl at 27%.

Thought it was interesting that Mac was 0 for 2 on bp's in that match while Lendl was 0 for 2 in the 84 Final.

Lendl had a rate of 30% vs Cash in the 84 SF.

It looks like Mac's 46% in this match may be pretty high for this era, which speaks to how well he was serving.

I think a lot of it had to do with the pressure to hit perfect returns against a great serve and volleyer.

 

[krosero]

In their 1982 USO meeting, Mac was at 33%, Lendl at 27%.

Thought it was interesting that Mac was 0 for 2 on bp's in that match while Lendl was 0 for 2 in the 84 Final.

Lendl had a rate of 30% vs Cash in the 84 SF.

Those two semifinal rates for Lendl, 27% and 30%, are more what I would have expected from Lendl in the '84 USO final. Maybe not quite as high as 27/30, considering how dialed in Mac was. But 18.1% seems a little low for Lendl, on this surface (even Connors got up to 15.1% the night before in the semis).

It looks like Mac's 46% in this match may be pretty high for this era, which speaks to how well he was serving.

It's nearly as high as what he did in the '84W final, 47.3%. What's his highest known rate?

 

[krosero]

In their 1982 USO meeting, Mac was at 33%, Lendl at 27%.

A very similar match was their 87 USO QF, which Lendl also won in straights. Lendl's unreturned rate was 38.7%, Mac's 36.8%.

So that's at least one time that Lendl topped Mac in unreturned rates, otherwise Mac was usually winning this stat.

 

[abmk]

In their 1982 USO meeting, Mac was at 33%, Lendl at 27%.

Thought it was interesting that Mac was 0 for 2 on bp's in that match while Lendl was 0 for 2 in the 84 Final.

Lendl had a rate of 30% vs Cash in the 84 SF.

It looks like Mac's 46% in this match may be pretty high for this era, which speaks to how well he was serving.

Those two semifinal rates for Lendl, 27% and 30%, are more what I would have expected from Lendl in the '84 USO final. Maybe not quite as high as 27/30, considering how dialed in Mac was. But 18.1% seems a little low for Lendl, on this surface (even Connors got up to 15.1% the night before in the semis).

It's nearly as high as what he did in the '84W final, 47.3%. What's his highest known rate?

Wim 84 final might be it, considering he served at 75+%.

NonP has 3 matches of Mac in the serves thread, all of them in the 30s.

 

[Moose Malloy]

McEnroe's unreturned serves

And a list for McEnroe. Some of these matches we've listed upthread, but now the opponent's info is added.

1979 Davis Cup (grass)
McEnroe – 1st 54%, 1 ace, 35 unreturned, 35.7%
Alexander – 1st 66%, 4 aces, 39 unreturned, 30.5%

1979 Masters
Borg – 1st 63%, 4 aces, 21 unreturned, 17.5%
McEnroe – 1st 51%, 4 aces, 26 unreturned, 24.5%

1980 W
McEnroe – 1st 61%, 14 aces, 51 unreturned, 42.1%
Connors – 1st 67%, 1 aces, 33 unreturned, 22.8%

1980 W
Borg – 1st 62%, 9 aces, 57 unreturned, 29.1%
McEnroe – 1st 63%, 11 aces, 70 unreturned, 38.9%

1980 USO
McEnroe – 1st 58%, 7 aces, 71 unreturned, 39.4%
Borg – 1st 47%, 4 aces, 25 unreturned, 15.2%

1980 Masters
Borg – 1st 64%, 3 aces, 27 unreturned, 23.3%
McEnroe – 1st 57%, 5 aces, 36 unreturned, 33.6%

1981 W
McEnroe – 1st 61%, 8 aces, 57 unreturned, 34.8%
Borg – 1st 57%, 9 aces, 35 unreturned, 23.3%

1981 USO
McEnroe – 1st 54%, 10 aces, 35 unreturned, 30.7%
Borg – 1st 55%, 9 aces, 24 unreturned, 21.4%

1982 W
Connors – 1st 64%, 0 aces, 33 unreturned, 18.1%
McEnroe – 1st 54%, 20 aces, 55 unreturned, 34.8%

1982 Davis Cup (indoor clay)
McEnroe – 1st 56%, 16 aces, 37 unreturned, 21.6%
Noah – 1st 58%, 13 aces, 51 unreturned, 29.7%

1983 W
McEnroe – 1st 69%, 17 aces, 49 unreturned, 49.5%
Lendl – 1st 72%, 4 aces, 38 unreturned, 37.3%

1984 RG
Lendl – 1st 70%, 5 aces, 28 unreturned, 18.1%
McEnroe – 1st 43%, 7 aces, 35 unreturned, 22.6%

1984 W
McEnroe – 1st 73%, 9 aces, 26 unreturned, 47.3%
Connors – 1st 67%, 0 aces, 17 unreturned, 24.3%

1984 USO
McEnroe – 1st 60%, 18 aces, 51 unreturned, 32.5%
Connors – 1st 78%, 1 aces, 25 unreturned, 15.6%

1984 USO
McEnroe – 1st 62%, 8 aces, 33 unreturned, 45.2%
Lendl – 1st 64%, 3 aces, 15 unreturned, 18.1%

1985 RG
Wilander – 1st 72%, 1 aces, 23 unreturned, 18.1%
McEnroe – 1st 57%, 5 aces, 15 unreturned, 14.2%

1985 Canadian
McEnroe – 1st 60%, 6 aces, 31 unreturned, 45.6%
Lendl – 1st 54%, 6 aces, 27 unreturned, 39.1%

1985 USO
McEnroe – 1st 51%, 4 aces, 38 unreturned, 26.4%
Wilander – 1st 69%, 5 aces, 26 unreturned, 17.9%

1986 Atlanta (AT&T Challenge, won by Becker 3-6, 6-3, 7-5)
Becker – 1st 64%, 12 aces, 28 unreturned, 28.6%
McEnroe – 1st 63%, 13 aces, 33 unreturned, 41.3%

1987 Davis Cup
Becker – 1st 65%, 18 aces, 68 unreturned, 33.3%
McEnroe – 1st 63%, 16 aces, 82 unreturned, 34.2%

1987 USO
Lendl – 1st 63%, 8 aces, 29 unreturned, 38.7%
McEnroe – 1st 56%, 1 aces, 32 unreturned, 36.8%

1991 Philadelphia
Sampras – 1st 56%, 10 aces, 22 unreturned, 38.6%
McEnroe – 1st 49%, 0 aces, 20 unreturned, 33.9%

A few notes. For '81 Wimby final, I'm using published first serve percentages. And two of our matches are incomplete: 1979 Masters (missing 2 games) and 1982 Wimby (missing 6 points).

Looks like Mac usually had more unret serves than Lendl, even in matches he lost. But none of them have quite the gap as the '84 USO. I have several other Mac matches I did stats on that I never posted on TW, will check to see what the rates were there.

 

[krosero]

Looks like Mac usually had more unret serves than Lendl, even in matches he won. But none of them have quite the gap as the '84 USO. I have several other Mac matches I did stats on that I never posted on TW, will check to see what the rates were there.

Very interesting, did I make that list? I'd forgotten it completely.

So Mac's highest known rate is against Lendl at '83 Wimbledon, just short of 50%. (Hope we can find one where he cracks that mark.) Lendl did very well that day too.

'85 Canadian, Mac did just as well as in the '84 USO final. Very similar matches, similar scorelines. The one huge difference is how much more effective Lendl's serve was in the Canadian match (or Mac's return less effective), compared to USO.

So in that entire list, if I looked it over correctly, Mac has the edge over his opponent in unreturned serves with only these exceptions: Noah in '82 Davis Cup (indoor clay), Wilander at '85 RG, and the two latest matches, 87 USO loss to Lendl and '92 Philadelphia loss to Sampras.

 

[Moose Malloy]

Lendl's rate had been exactly the same, 18.1%, in their RG final a couple of months earlier. Mac in that final was 22.6%.

In their meeting at 88 RG, I have Mac with 28.3 and Lendl with 23.

Other matches at 84 RG
Mac 31.7, Arias 14.8(missing a few pts on Arias serve)
Mac 31.5, Connors 18