Stats for 1988 W final (Graf-Navratilova)

[krosero]

Score: 5-7, 6-2, 6-1
(27 games)

Since Warriorroger invited us to watch this on YouTube, I did, and I jotted down the winners. I was a little more casual with this than with the men's matches I've done, because it's never been my intention to start a whole new project on women's matches; but it's hard for me now to watch tennis matches and let the stats go unrecorded.

I started counting from 4-3 in the first set, when NBC displayed the winners broken down by serve, FH, BH, and net. For what it's worth, I had the same total number of winners (service and non-service) that NBC gave for each player at 1-love in the third. And the network kept a running count of aces and Graf forehands, also in sync with what I counted.

Graf had 4 aces, 4 service winners, and 1 double.

Navratilova had 1 ace, 3 service winners, and 3 doubles. Two of her doubles were in the final game.


Graf hit 53 winners: 22 forehands, 16 backhands, 15 at net.

Navratilova hit 19 winners: 1 forehand, 4 backhands, 14 at net.

So Graf had more winners at net (barely) than Navratilova.


Graf's winners (non-service) by set: 21, 20, 12.

Navratilova's winners (non-service) by set: 11, 5, 3.


Graf's rate of non-service winners per game is 1.96. That is higher than any rate I know about for a men's match even with their aces and service winners included.

Graf's rate of service and non-service winners combined is 2.26 per game.

Navratilova has a rate of .70 for non-service winners, and .85 for all winners.

For comparison, let's take the 2005 Wimbledon final in which Venus Williams defeated Lindsay Davenport 4-6, 7-6 (4), 9-7 (or 39 games).

Williams hit 49 winners, per the NY Times. Presuming that this includes winners of every kind, that is a rate of 1.26 per game, compared to Graf's 2.26.

If the Times stat includes only non-service winners, then the comparison is with Graf's 1.96.


There is also the winner/error ratio. NBC displayed the winners and unforced errors at 1-love in the third. Graf had 2.88 times as many winners of all kinds as errors (49 vs. 17), Navratilova 1.75 times as many (21 vs. 12).

Williams hit 29 unforced errors for the whole match, so that's a ratio of 1.69.


As I said, I did this one more a little more casually than usual, so I don't have the usual detail, like the number of passing shots. And I suspect that one reason Graf has such a higher number of winners in this match is that Navratilova presented a constant target.

As of 1-love in the third, per NBC, Graf had won 16 points at net, Navratilova 47.

As of 1-love in the third, Graf was serving at 63%, Navratilova at 60%.


I'm glad this match was uploaded, because even though I hadn't intended to count winners for any women's matches, this was one match where almost 20 years later I remembered Graf just hitting a flood of them. It's a good touchstone, and an interesting comparison with the men.

 

[Warriorroger]

Score: 5-7, 6-2, 6-1
(27 games)

Since Warriorroger invited us to watch this on YouTube, I did, and I jotted down the winners. I was a little more casual with this than with the men's matches I've done, because it's never been my intention to start a whole new project on women's matches; but it's hard for me now to watch tennis matches and let the stats go unrecorded.

I started counting from 4-3 in the first set, when NBC displayed the winners broken down by serve, FH, BH, and net. For what it's worth, I had the same total number of winners (service and non-service) that NBC gave for each player at 1-love in the third. And the network kept a running count of aces and Graf forehands, also in sync with what I counted.

Graf had 4 aces, 4 service winners, and 1 double.

Navratilova had 1 ace, 3 service winners, and 3 doubles. Two of her doubles were in the final game.


Graf hit 53 winners: 22 forehands, 16 backhands, 15 at net.

Navratilova hit 19 winners: 1 forehand, 4 backhands, 14 at net.

So Graf had more winners at net (barely) than Navratilova.


Graf's winners (non-service) by set: 21, 20, 12.

Navratilova's winners (non-service) by set: 11, 5, 3.


Graf's rate of non-service winners per game is 1.96. That is higher than any rate I know about for a men's match even with their aces and service winners included.

Graf's rate of service and non-service winners combined is 2.26 per game.

Navratilova has a rate of .70 for non-service winners, and .85 for all winners.

For comparison, let's take the 2005 Wimbledon final in which Venus Williams defeated Lindsay Davenport 4-6, 7-6 (4), 9-7 (or 39 games).

Williams hit 49 winners, per the NY Times. Presuming that this includes winners of every kind, that is a rate of 1.26 per game, compared to Graf's 2.26.

If the Times stat includes only non-service winners, then the comparison is with Graf's 1.96.


There is also the winner/error ratio. NBC displayed the winners and unforced errors at 1-love in the third. Graf had 2.88 times as many winners of all kinds as errors (49 vs. 17), Navratilova 1.75 times as many (21 vs. 12).

Williams hit 29 unforced errors for the whole match, so that's a ratio of 1.69.


As I said, I did this one more a little more casually than usual, so I don't have the usual detail, like the number of passing shots. And I suspect that one reason Graf has such a higher number of winners in this match is that Navratilova presented a constant target.

As of 1-love in the third, per NBC, Graf had won 16 points at net, Navratilova 47.

As of 1-love in the third, Graf was serving at 63%, Navratilova at 60%.


I'm glad this match was uploaded, because even though I hadn't intended to count winners for any women's matches, this was one match where almost 20 years later I remembered Graf just hitting a flood of them. It's a good touchstone, and an interesting comparison with the men.

Thanks Krosero: what an effort and very interesting to see the many winners Steffi hit during that match. You're right about the target remark, many of the winners were passing shots or lobs.

 

[krosero]

Stats for 1999 Wimbledon QF

Graf d. Williams, 6-2, 3-6, 6-4

I saw this one on YouTube. The NBC coverage is missing about the equivalent of five games.

NBC did provide running counts of aces and doubles, which helped me to count those in full: Graf had 2 aces and 3 DFs, Williams 4 aces and 2 DFs.

At 3-2 in the third, per NBC, Graf had made 23 winners of all kinds (aces, service winners, and other strokes), next to 27 UEs. Williams had 28 winners and 34 UEs.

They were very evenly matched in these stats. The real story of the match was the break points: Graf converted 4 of 6, Williams only 3 of 15. Williams was broken in all three sets, but she broke Graf only in the 2nd set.



Each player's winner-to-error ratio was below 1.0. Graf was at .85, Williams at .82.

Compare that to Venus' ratio of 1.69 in the (whole) 2005 final.

And in the 1988 final, early in the third set, Graf had been at 2.88 and Navratilova at 1.75.


In the 1999 match, as of 3-2 in the third, Graf's rate of winners per game was 1.05. Williams was at 1.27.

Compare that to Venus' rate for the (whole) 2005 final, which was 1.26. Graf's rate in the (whole) 1988 final had been 2.26, with Navratilova at .85.

For me the 1988 final was, not the most dramatic match, but the most exciting kind of tennis. Martina and Steffi were moving around extremely fast, both sideways and forward. Watching those points you feel as if the ball might go anywhere, and as if points might suddenly end with an angled winner.

And the 1988 final did have more winners. That is primarily caused, I think, by Martina's net-rushing: it resulted in volley winners and passing shots.

After 21 games, Navratilova had won 47 points at net, Graf 16. After the same number of games in 1999, Williams had won 19 points at net (out of 30 approaches). Graf had won 4 (out of 7 approaches).

In the games covered by NBC, I counted 19 non-service winners made by Williams -- 12 of them with volleys or overheads. Graf had just 2 backhand volleys, out of 15 winners.

Graf made both of those backhand volleys in one game, when she broke Williams at 2-all in the third (one of them was a sharp backhand drop volley of a kind I've rarely seen her make). This suggests that she was capable of approaching more, but approached only just enough to win.

____________________________________________________________

Edited to add stats.

Using the full BBC coverage of the match, I got a full count of the clean winners:

Graf - 19 (11 FH, 6 BH, 2 BHV)
Williams - 23 (9 FH, 1 BH, 4 FHV, 6 BHV, 3 OV)

Graf “poured 73 percent of her serves at Venus’ forehand side” (South Florida Sun Sentinel).

I counted the unreturned serves: Graf 21/97 (21.6%), Williams 18/82 (22.0%).


The boxscore at Wimbledon.org:

The UEs are too high. At 3-2 in the third, NBC had Graf at only 27 UE, Williams at 34.

All the Wimbledon.org boxscores from this year had this issue. Sampras, for example, is given 51 UE in the final, but NBC gave him only 22.

In the third set, Graf made 24 of 33 first serves (73%), Williams 17 of 31 (55%).

_____________________________

Robin Finn in the NY Times:

The darker it got, and the longer it dragged on, the more impassioned the Wimbledon quarterfinal between Steffi Graf and Venus Williams became. Graf, the seven-time champion, had a statement to make in her rain-infested contest with Williams, the 19-year-old American whom Graf has deemed worthy to inherit her mantle. But not until Graf is ready to relinquish it.​

​

So after seven hours and four rain delays, Graf grabbed a lethal service break to lead 3-2 in the final set, then fended off three break points to hold for 4-2.... ''We played unbelievable tennis, and that's what counts to me,'' Graf said. ''Everyone that came in the locker room -- you know, Virginia Wade, Pam Shriver -- was saying it was an incredible match, and that's how I see it.''​

​

The 30-year-old Graf used the occasion of her 22d Grand Slam victory last month at the French Open to announce her retirement from that event. As for this one, her favorite, Graf hasn't yet completed her mission and won't even if she wins here this year: an eighth Wimbledon crown would leave her one major short of tying Margaret Court's Grand Slam record of 24 singles titles. And while Graf doesn't give the record books as much deference as Pete Sampras does, she does crave another title at Wimbledon, which she last won in 1996.​

​

Graf called this the most difficult quarterfinal she has ever played, not only because it had to be played in fits and starts, but also because Williams put up such a fight.​

​

''She has the game,'' said Graf, whose formidable forehand and hissing backhand slice didn't scare Williams. ''She got some balls I thought were over.''​

​

Harvey Araton in NYT:

CONVENTIONAL logic, and even John McEnroe's convoluted brand, suggested that Steffi Graf was not going to have enough fluidity in her muscles and fuel in the tank at the end of a long, soggy day. She walked out onto Center Court, into the gloaming, the sky offering only enough time to finish a set. But it happened to be the third set with Venus Williams, 19, finely tuned, long-limbed and ready to run.​

​

A tall order, even for Graf, McEnroe's ''tennis goddess'' and mixed doubles partner.​

​

''When I was young, it was easier to suddenly get up and play,'' McEnroe had said, as the rain fell yesterday and Graf whiled away another Wimbledon afternoon. ''As you get older, you have to keep on revving up, do your stretching, figure out when to eat. I think it affects the older guy more.''​

​

Graf, on the other hand, is obviously no old tennis guy and no ordinary aging gal. Indisputably one of the greats in tennis history, she gave us another demonstration of why she could, by Sunday, join another elite club: the association of 30-year-old Grand Slam champions. In the twilight, in a drizzle, she cranked up the engine for the fourth time in seven hours, broke Williams's serve and landed in her 10th Wimbledon semifinal with a 6-2, 3-6, 6-4 victory....​

​

This persistent second-week rain has made life hard on everyone. I heard it poured yesterday back home in New Jersey, but my rain is worse than yours. When it rains at Wimbledon, there is nothing to do but eat and feel old.​

​

They make you feel droopy around the eyes by showing classic Wimbledon matches on BBC. As the tarps were being rolled on and off and back on the various courts yesterday, Martina Navratilova was trying to take the net against Chris Evert again in the 1978 women's final. If Graf wasn't reading and Williams watching her own first-set rerun on another channel in the women's locker room, these two might even have shared a few laughs.​

​

Wood racquets. Patty-cake serves. Soft ground strokes landing three feet short of the baseline. I often brag about having covered some of the great Chris-Martina wars, but I wouldn't share this information with, say, Alexandra Stevenson, simply on the ground of dating myself. And come to think of it, maybe Graf wouldn't have found the old stuff so funny, either. I seem to recall sitting on Center Court for Evert's last Wimbledon appearance, a 1989 semifinal against a stalwart young German whose forehand made sure Chrissie had no doubts.​

​

From one era to another, the high quality of yesterday's match was a tribute not only to the racquet technology but also to the evolution of women's conditioning. After all the numbing starts and stops, there were Graf and Williams in a tense third set, in severe conditions, conducting a grass-court clinic. The moon ball, thank goodness, is as dead as the moon.​

​

''For the many breaks that we had, I think it's unbelievable tennis today,'' said Graf, and even Williams agreed it was the best losing match she had played.​

​

On Wednesday, Boris Becker was of the opinion that the weather disruptions had robbed him of his service timing. The three-set defeat to Patrick Rafter sent Becker, at 31, home to look for the perfect German sunset. Graf wasn't getting any younger waiting in the locker room yesterday, having turned the Big Three-Oh on June 14, days after she unmade Martina Hingis's psyche and summer in the French Open final.​

​

Sorry. No matter how Graf has reinvented herself after numerous ailments and setbacks, that doesn't officially qualify her for the 30-and-Over club. These memberships are becoming increasingly rare. The last time a 30-plus woman won a Grand Slam was in 1990, when Navratilova won here, at 33. Evert's last Grand Slam victory was in 1986, at 31, in Paris. Jana Novotna, 29 when she broke through here last year, yesterday looked like a tennis geriatric in her straight-set surrender to Lindsay Davenport.​

​

Ivan Lendl was 30 when he won the Australian Open in 1990, as was Andres Gomez, who that year won the French. The oldest modern-era player to win a Grand Slam? Ken Rosewall was 37 when he won the Australian in 1972, which is encouraging news for Patrick Ewing more than it is for the modern male tennis star.​

​

When someone asked Graf about outslinging a young gun, she laughed and said, ''You're really on about this age thing, eh?''​

​

Then she added: ''I don't think very often about age. The body tells me sometimes, but otherwise I go out there and play.''​

 

[krosero]

1988 USO final, Graf-Sabatini

Just looked up the stats in the New York Times.

This one had fewer approaches than the Wimbledon final two months earlier, and fewer winners.

Graf had 33 winners of all kinds: 0 aces, 7 service winners, and 26 placement winners.

Sabatini had 23 winners of all kinds: 4 aces, 5 service winners, and 14 placement winners.


Graf won 2 of 8 approaches. Sabatini won 16 of 26.


So Graf had an average of 1.32 winners of all kinds per game, Sabatini .92.

Those numbers are much lower than Graf's numbers against Navratilova, and closer to the figures for the 1999 and 2005 matches.


Graf had just as many unforced errors as winners. Sabatini's ratio of winners to unforced errors was .74.

Again, that's closer to the 1999 and 2005 matches than the figures in the Navratilova match.

 

[obanaghan]

I remember that 88 W final. Martina looked as if she would win in straight sets and then the Graf backhand killed her.

Steffi outhit Martina in a way Evert could not. The guard changed and passed Martina that afternoon. Likewise, Graf was passed by Seles since she could hit the living hell out of the ball on both sides. Seles in turn was passed by the Williams' because they could hit the ball hard like her AND could run.

 

[CEvertFan]

I remember that 88 W final. Martina looked as if she would win in straight sets and then the Graf backhand killed her.

Steffi outhit Martina in a way Evert could not. The guard changed and passed Martina that afternoon. Likewise, Graf was passed by Seles since she could hit the living hell out of the ball on both sides. Seles in turn was passed by the Williams' because they could hit the ball hard like her AND could run.

Evert's intention was never to outhit Martina in the first place. Evert's game was about accuracy and depth on her groundstrokes and mental toughness, not power. 37 wins over Martina indicates that her strategy worked just as well as Graf's far more powerful game did.

 

[Gasquetrules]

Great women's tennis

I've got copies of two of the Graf-Navratilova GS finals from '88. I believe the matches between these two were perhaps the best women's tennis of any era.

Granted, the Williams sisters hit harder today. And Venus plays unbelievable defense with her movement. And to compete with them other women such as Graf or Davenport or Sharapova or whomever must also hit with more power. So yeah, both Venus and Serena produce a lot of errors and force their opponents to do likewise.

But for total quality of play, I still much prefer the Graf-Navratilova matchups for the great all-court play and athleticsm both women display.

Graf was always criticized for two things later in her career: 1. rarely hitting with topspin off the backhand; and 2. not coming to net often enough.

But in her Wimbledon final (especially) with Navratilova, Graf routinely hits topspin passing shots and comes to net just as often as Navratilova does. Why? Because Martina attacked the net constantly and she compelld Graf to do these things to beat her. And Graf did. So Graf hit flawless topspin backhands and showed great netplay as a teenager. She could have done this throughout her career... but didn't need to. She could win without playing this way because virtually no other women after Navratilova played at the same level.

BTW, despite hitting some great backhand topspin passes, Graf's sliced passing shot worked even better than the topspin. Graf could thread the slice through a needle, and it stayed so low and the heavy underspin made for a lot of volley errors from Martina. In contrast if Steffi hit with topspin on the pass and Martina got her racquet on it she rarely missed the volley. The topspin drive was only effective when Steffi had the room to blow the shot past Martina.

I like Maruesmo's game a lot because it reminds me so much of Martina's.

 

[grafrules]

Graf was forced to use her topspin backhand when she played Navratilova since trying to win passing Martina all day with a slice was never going to work, even with Martina already slightly past her prime. She showed she could do it effectively in her matches with Martina from 87-89, especialy 88 and 89, and it was great to see. I wish she had that same confidence to use it vs a baseliner or all court player during those times such a player was giving her great trouble, like Seles or Sabatini in the early 90s, as it would probably have helped her immensely if she did, but it seemed there was never enough urgency to feel she had to unless she played an all out attacker.

 

[CEvertFan]

Graf was forced to use her topspin backhand when she played Navratilova since trying to win passing Martina all day with a slice was never going to work, even with Martina already slightly past her prime. She showed she could do it effectively in her matches with Martina from 87-89, especialy 88 and 89, and it was great to see. I wish she had that same confidence to use it vs a baseliner or all court player during those times such a player was giving her great trouble, like Seles or Sabatini in the early 90s, as it would probably have helped her immensely if she did, but it seemed there was never enough urgency to feel she had to unless she played an all out attacker.

Graf knew that against a baseliner or an all court player (although I think calling Sabatini an all court player is stretching it just a little as she played mostly from the baseline) that she would be involved mainly in baseline rallies, and the baseline was where Graf felt most comfortable and at her most confident so there was never any urgency or desire for her to further improve the topspin backhand or her net game.

She felt she needed to do it against a pure serve volley player like Navratilova because when she wasn't going for those shots (taking the net away from Navratilova or hitting great topspin backhands) she wound up losing to Martina. Also after Martina was no longer a major threat, Steffi rarely ever used those shots (much more the topspin backhand than the volley) during her matches and if a shot isn't used regularly one can't expect to suddenly call on it and be able to rely on it, and there were times I saw her go for one later in her career during a match and wind up hitting a very bad topspin backhand and then she wouldn't even attempt it again during the match because in her mind it had become too much of an unreliable shot. Also in '88 and '89 (when she was 19 and 20 years old) I believe Graf was absolutely filled with youthful confidence and felt she could do no wrong on the court and that no one could challenge her at that time (and for the most part she was correct since both Navratilova and Evert were past their primes) and therefore any shot she tried worked flawlessly for her for the most part.

All in all she did more than well enough without a great net game or a consistently good topspin backhand, but imagine how many more possible Slam titles she could have had if she had developed those parts of her game to their fullest potential.

 

[Warriorroger]

Graf knew that against a baseliner or an all court player (although I think calling Sabatini an all court player is stretching it just a little as she played mostly from the baseline) that she would be involved mainly in baseline rallies, and the baseline was where Graf felt most comfortable and at her most confident so there was never any urgency or desire for her to further improve the topspin backhand or her net game.

She felt she needed to do it against a pure serve volley player like Navratilova because when she wasn't going for those shots (taking the net away from Navratilova or hitting great topspin backhands) she wound up losing to Martina. Also after Martina was no longer a major threat, Steffi rarely ever used those shots (much more the topspin backhand than the volley) during her matches and if a shot isn't used regularly one can't expect to suddenly call on it and be able to rely on it, and there were times I saw her go for one later in her career during a match and wind up hitting a very bad topspin backhand and then she wouldn't even attempt it again during the match because in her mind it had become too much of an unreliable shot. Also in '88 and '89 (when she was 19 and 20 years old) I believe Graf was absolutely filled with youthful confidence and felt she could do no wrong on the court and that no one could challenge her at that time (and for the most part she was correct since both Navratilova and Evert were past their primes) and therefore any shot she tried worked flawlessly for her for the most part.

All in all she did more than well enough without a great net game or a consistently good topspin backhand, but imagine how many more possible Slam titles she could have had if she had developed those parts of her game to their fullest potential.

Agree on most parts. I think she would have won more titles (if she stayed healthy), if she had more of a netgame, the netgame she showed in 1988. Her slice is different and better (except for the 91-93) years than any player male/female past/present, cause it made players hit up, so she could hit the big forehand. Her winning less slams (IMO) had more to do with her reluctance in coming to the net. There have been thousands of moments where she could have stand at the net, because she just hit a punishing shot, and she let the player back in the rally. Seles is known for her power and angles, but she also had a lot of shots back. If you look at the 1990 RG final, Monica played great and smart, Steffi also played great, but not strategically wise. Monica was much sharper and stronger that day from the baseline and Steffi should have come in. But that's the great thing when great players meet each other, they make each other better.

Everone says Martina was past her prime when she played Graf, I think 1988/89 Martina served better and hit harder, was more in shape then 70s Martina. And in a way they were the same, athlete versus athlete. I think when both had a good day on the same day, it produced the best matches: past/present. Therefore it is fitting that they were tied in their carreerd at 9-9.

 

[hewittboy]

To be honest I think Graf had some very good volleying technique. If she had just forced herself to be more of an all court player she would have been a very accomplished volleyer I think. It was just stubborness on her part. She just could never commit mentally to it. Like CEvertFan said rarely in her career did she need to anyway, so that was probably a large part of it.

 

[Gasquetrules]

My point exactly...

To be honest I think Graf had some very good volleying technique. If she had just forced herself to be more of an all court player she would have been a very accomplished volleyer I think. It was just stubborness on her part. She just could never commit mentally to it. Like CEvertFan said rarely in her career did she need to anyway, so that was probably a large part of it.

Graf proved early on that she had a complete game. But after Navratilova left the game, Steffi didn't need to hit over her backhand or volley that much to win. This says more about women's tennis than Graf's tennis.

And let's be honest. Graf's sliced backhand was a very good shot. It worked extremely well on grass. Steffi could hit it consistently within a foot of the baseline; it stayed very low and was quite hard to attack. In her final Wimbledon she beat Venus Williams from the baseline with that sliced backhand. To Venus' credit she did a wonderful job bending her knees and getting down low to play Graf's deep sliced drives back... but Venus couldn't really attack the shot or she would hit it out. All she could do was try to roll it back deep in the court and hope for something shorter that would bounce higher that she could knock the felt off of... but she almost never got it. What a dillema!!! Keep hitting to Steffi's backhand and eventually make an error trying to create something off that deep and low slice, or take the chance of hitting to Steffi's forehand.

Steffi's backhand slice was very accurate and very consistent and probably worked better against the typical topspinning female baseliner than a one-handed backhand drive would have. And as someone just pointed out, the slice really did work great to force her opponents to hit up on the ball and set up the power forehand putaway.

 

[Gasquetrules]

Santoro vs. Lendl and Becker

Sorry... wrong thread.

 

[krosero]

My own stats for Graf-Navratilova (1988)

Since this match has the highest rate of winners per game in any match I know about, I decided to get my own count, this time from the beginning, and to get the service percentages.

(And while I was at it I got some stats on how many of Graf's backhand winners were overhand or topspin).

Again my own counts matched up perfectly with NBC's mid-match stats for total winners (including service winners), aces and Graf forehand winners.


Graf had 4 aces, 4 service winners, and 1 double.

Navratilova had 1 ace, 3 service winners, and 3 doubles.


Graf made 52 of 74 first serves (or 70%).
Navratilova made 62 of 101 first serves (or 61%).


Graf’s percentages by set:
25/38 (66%)
15/21 (71%)
12/15 (80%)

Navratilova’s percentages by set:
28/46 (61%)
15/28 (54%)
19/27 (70%)

Graf won 8 of 19 break points, Navratilova 4 of 4.

Graf put her first serve into play on 2 of 4 break points, Navratilova on 15 of 19 (or 79%).

Graf won 97 points, Navratilova 78.

Graf won 44 of 74 points on her serve. Navratilova won only 48 of 101, less than 50%.


Graf made 53 non-service winners: 22 FH, 16 BH, 7 FHV, 3 BHV, 5 overheads.

Navratilova made 19 non-service winners: 1 FH, 4 BH, 2 FHV, 8 BHV, 4 overheads.


Graf returned Navratilova's serve 20 times for clean winners (12 times off the first serve), with 10 FH's and 10 BH's. All but one of these was a passing shot.

Graf had the only lob winners of the match, both of them sliced backhands at 2-all in the first set, when she broke Navratilova.

Graf also passed Navratilova 13 other times, with 9 FH’s and 4 BH’s.

So Graf passed Navratilova in one way or another 34 times: 18 times with her forehand, 16 times with her backhand.

Of the 16 backhand winners, 7 were topspin or flat. Four of the seven were service returns (including the netcord dribbler at match point).

Navratilova returned Graf’s second serve twice for clean winners, once with a FH and once with a BH. She also returned Graf's first serve with a BH winner. None of these were passes; and Martina had no lob winners. But she did pass Steffi twice, with topspin backhands; both times she broke Graf’s service.

In a way, then, both women did their best when they came over the backhand.

 

[Moose Malloy]

Stats for 1999 Wimbledon QF, Graf-Venus Williams

Graf d. Williams, 6-2, 3-6, 6-4.

I saw this one on YouTube. The NBC coverage is missing about the equivalent of five games.

NBC did provide running counts of aces and doubles, which helped me to count those.

For the whole match, Graf had 2 aces and 3 doubles. Williams had 4 aces and 2 doubles.

At 3-2 in the third, Graf had made 23 winners of all kinds (aces, service winners, and other strokes), next to 27 unforced errors. Williams had 28 winners and 34 unforced errors.

They were very evenly matched in these stats. The real story of the match was the break points: Graf converted 4 of 6, Williams only 3 of 15. Williams was broken in all three sets, but she broke Graf only in the second set.



Each player's winner-to-error ratio was below 1.0. Graf was at .85, Williams at .82.

Compare that to Venus' ratio of 1.69 in the (whole) 2005 final.

And in the 1988 final, early in the third set, Graf had been at 2.88 and Navratilova at 1.75.



In the 1999 match, as of 3-2 in the third, Graf's rate of winners per game was 1.05. Williams was at 1.27.

Compare that to Venus' rate for the (whole) 2005 final, which was 1.26. Graf's rate in the (whole) 1988 final had been 2.26, with Navratilova at .85.



For me the 1988 final was, not the most dramatic match, but the most exciting kind of tennis. Martina and Steffi were moving around extremely fast, both sideways and forward. Watching those points you feel as if the ball might go anywhere, and as if points might suddenly end with an angled winner.

And the 1988 final did have more winners. That is primarily caused, I think, by Martina's net-rushing: it resulted in volley winners and passing shots.

After 21 games, Navratilova had won 47 points at net, Graf 16. After the same number of games in 1999, Williams had won 19 points at net (out of 30 approaches). Graf had won 4 (out of 7 approaches).

In the games covered by NBC, I counted 19 non-service winners made by Williams -- 12 of them with volleys or overheads. Graf had just 2 backhand volleys, out of 15 winners.

Graf made both of those backhand volleys in one game, when she broke Williams at 2-all in the third (one of them was a sharp backhand drop volley of a kind I've rarely seen her make). This suggests that she was capable of approaching more, but approached only just enough to win.

the Wimbledon youtube channel uploaded Graf-Venus. Unreal court coverage by both. High quality despite having several rain delays.

 

[bluetrain4]

I remember that 88 W final. Martina looked as if she would win in straight sets and then the Graf backhand killed her.

Steffi outhit Martina in a way Evert could not. The guard changed and passed Martina that afternoon. Likewise, Graf was passed by Seles since she could hit the living hell out of the ball on both sides. Seles in turn was passed by the Williams' because they could hit the ball hard like her AND could run.

I'm the biggest Seles fan, but Seles really never "passed" Graf in the sense that there was a permanent changing of the guard and Graf's Slam-winning days were largely over. Seles equaled her, and she did exceed her for a while before the stabbing, but Graf still went on to win many more Slams and get more wins over Monica.

 

[flutzingitaway]

I'm the biggest Seles fan, but Seles really never "passed" Graf in the sense that there was a permanent changing of the guard and Graf's Slam-winning days were largely over. Seles equaled her, and she did exceed her for a while before the stabbing, but Graf still went on to win many more Slams and get more wins over Monica.

Careful, you are opening up a can of worms here.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

I'm the biggest Seles fan, but Seles really never "passed" Graf in the sense that there was a permanent changing of the guard and Graf's Slam-winning days were largely over. Seles equaled her, and she did exceed her for a while before the stabbing, but Graf still went on to win many more Slams and get more wins over Monica.

It's somewhat like there was no permanent changing of guard when Navratilova stepped up. It became a duopoly of Navratilova-Evert. That is likely how it would have shaped up had Seles not been stabbed. Seles would have found it harder to displace Graf at Wimbledon. And USO also suited Graf's game because of the pace of the surface. Which brings us to the aspect that was unlike Evert-Navratilova. Graf was distinctly the better athlete so as Seles began to drop off her peak, Graf would start beating her more often. This is consistent with what happened from 95 onwards anyway.

 

[DMan]

I thought this was a high quality match. I believe Graf would have been a slight favorite, as #1 and half way to a Grand Slam. But Martina was reigning champ, having won the last 6 years, and had only lost 3 times on grass since 1983. Plus, Martina beat Steffi 7-5,6-3 in the 1987 Wimbledon final.

Both Graf and Navratilova played well from the start. Steffi got the first break, and served for the set at 5-4. Once Steffi nudged in front, I did, as most others probably believed she would go on to win in straight sets. Having started well and breaking Martina first, Steffi had to be feeling confident. But the most subtle of momentum switches occurred. One or two errors from Graf at inopportune times along with Martina's relentless attacking saw Navratilova go from a 3-5 deficit to reeling off 6 games, stealing the first set from Steffi and breaking right away in the second en route to winning 6 consecutive games and surge to a 7-5,2-0 lead.
Overall, it was still high quality match, with Graf's play coming down ever so slightly and Martina looking for any opportunity to approach to the Graf backhand. It surely looked like Martina would wear her crown for another year. But then......
Graf snapped herself out of her momentary funk, and proceeded to blitz Martina from every part of the court. Serving to win her 7th consecutive game at 2-0 in the second, Martina let up and Graf pounced, breaking back. With Graf trailing 5-7, 0-2, he rallied to crush Navratilova, never allowing Martina to hold serve again, breaking her 7 times in a row, seemingly at will at times, and thrash Navratilova by the equivalent score of 6-0,6-1 in a Wimbledon final on grass.

 

[BTURNER]

I thought this was a high quality match. I believe Graf would have been a slight favorite, as #1 and half way to a Grand Slam. But Martina was reigning champ, having won the last 6 years, and had only lost 3 times on grass since 1983. Plus, Martina beat Steffi 7-5,6-3 in the 1987 Wimbledon final.

Both Graf and Navratilova played well from the start. Steffi got the first break, and served for the set at 5-4. Once Steffi nudged in front, I did, as most others probably believed she would go on to win in straight sets. Having started well and breaking Martina first, Steffi had to be feeling confident. But the most subtle of momentum switches occurred. One or two errors from Graf at inopportune times along with Martina's relentless attacking saw Navratilova go from a 3-5 deficit to reeling off 6 games, stealing the first set from Steffi and breaking right away in the second en route to winning 6 consecutive games and surge to a 7-5,2-0 lead.
Overall, it was still high quality match, with Graf's play coming down ever so slightly and Martina looking for any opportunity to approach to the Graf backhand. It surely looked like Martina would wear her crown for another year. But then......
Graf snapped herself out of her momentary funk, and proceeded to blitz Martina from every part of the court. Serving to win her 7th consecutive game at 2-0 in the second, Martina let up and Graf pounced, breaking back. With Graf trailing 5-7, 0-2, he rallied to crush Navratilova, never allowing Martina to hold serve again, breaking her 7 times in a row, seemingly at will at times, and thrash Navratilova by the equivalent score of 6-0,6-1 in a Wimbledon final on grass.

I have never seen the like of that match. Steffi broke into an entirely unforseen level of grass court tennis in real time in front of everyone at centre court. Martina had set the standard for grass court brilliance in the last five years, and Steffi shattered it in five games and never looked back! She found a new stratosphere of court coverage that day. Martina could not find a place to put a volley that was safe from those legs.

 

[suwanee4712]

I think, similar to 1982 US QF vs Pam, this was a match that Martina had to win quickly. For one thing, Graf still had to defeat her here to truly pass Martina. Graf had not really been challenged at this Wimbledon, and thus had not been forced to show the kind of form of would take to beat Martina on Center Court. So while we suspected she had it in her, I'm not completely sure Graf knew she could produce that kind of grass court tennis. She absolutely did, and displayed that. But early in the second set it looked as if Martina might win similarly to the 87 final.

Secondly, there was little to no mention of it, but Martina had a hip injury that had been bothering her since at least Hilton Head. She did not have the usual torque on her service motion. She 's not getting around the ball consistently with power. In fact, she putting a tremendous amount of spin on the serve. Her forehand and slice backhand seem less effective.

I wonder what role stress played in this as Martina was absolutely foul in the start to her 4th round match and throughout her QF, which she could've lost. She also had a terrible doubles tournament. I think Graf is in her head, and once Steffi started figuring things out in the second set she knew she was in trouble. And there go the floodgates!

This match is impressive because it was the breakthrough of breakthroughs, the dethroning of Martina at Wimbledon. But, to me, it's not that great of a match.

I think Steffi's 89 Wimbledon and US Open wins are more impressive. I believe Steffi was forced to play better tennis in 89 as a whole. But, I think I'm a lone wolf in this respect.

 

[flutzingitaway]

I think, similar to 1982 US QF vs Pam, this was a match that Martina had to win quickly. For one thing, Graf still had to defeat her here to truly pass Martina. Graf had not really been challenged at this Wimbledon, and thus had not been forced to show the kind of form of would take to beat Martina on Center Court. So while we suspected she had it in her, I'm not completely sure Graf knew she could produce that kind of grass court tennis. She absolutely did, and displayed that. But early in the second set it looked as if Martina might win similarly to the 87 final.

Secondly, there was little to no mention of it, but Martina had a hip injury that had been bothering her since at least Hilton Head. She did not have the usual torque on her service motion. She 's not getting around the ball consistently with power. In fact, she putting a tremendous amount of spin on the serve. Her forehand and slice backhand seem less effective.

I wonder what role stress played in this as Martina was absolutely foul in the start to her 4th round match and throughout her QF, which she could've lost. She also had a terrible doubles tournament. I think Graf is in her head, and once Steffi started figuring things out in the second set she knew she was in trouble. And there go the floodgates!

This match is impressive because it was the breakthrough of breakthroughs, the dethroning of Martina at Wimbledon. But, to me, it's not that great of a match.

I think Steffi's 89 Wimbledon and US Open wins are more impressive. I believe Steffi was forced to play better tennis in 89 as a whole. But, I think I'm a lone wolf in this respect.

Steffi was for sure even better in 89 than 88 and the field was infinitely stronger. Navratilova was far better in 89 than 88, and in some ways than 87 too. Sanchez and Seles coming on the scene in a big way. Sabatini I think was actually a bit stronger too. Sukova had her last pretty good year, although she is Graf's pigeon she is still a quality player. Garrison was more solid overall this year than 88 I think. From rough memory 1 or more of the Maleevas were stronger this year too. Only Evert, Zvereva, and even moreso Shriver were weaker.

Graf really could have gone unbeaten this year. Both her losses were extremely close. People thinking she was better in 88 are only since she did the Grand Slam in 88 and missed it in 89, but the RG final loss was a bit flukey, a bad choke at the end, and she was also ill. Knowledgable people know 89 was her true best year of tennis ever.

 

[bluetrain4]

Navratilova-Graf is an underrated rivalry IMO - probably because they're from different tennis generations and are historically paired with Evert and Seles, respectively, as their main rival - though in the case of Graf, she actually played Martina more times in her career than Seles.

A lot riding on a lot of these matches - Navratilova missed out on some chances to increase her Slam count and simultaneously take one away from Graf. Once Graf really established herself as the top player and beat Martina a few times in a row in big matches, I was impressed when Martina beat her in the 1991 USO SFs.

I had forgot how this match went. 6-0, 6-1 over the last 13 games against Martina, on grass. Wow.

 

[BringBackWood]

Is there a chance that Graf's peak was in the late 80's as opposed to the mid 90's? I've been watching some matches of her's and she seems more willing to go to the net and come over the BH in the 80's. A bit less stuck in her ways perhaps. I also don't know of another performance of her's as impressive as this. Are there any recommendations for 90's matches where Graf is at her best?

 

[bluetrain4]

Is there a chance that Graf's peak was in the late 80's as opposed to the mid 90's? I've been watching some matches of her's and she seems more willing to go to the net and come over the BH in the 80's. A bit less stuck in her ways perhaps. I also don't know of another performance of her's as impressive as this. Are there any recommendations for 90's matches where Graf is at her best?

Something that I never noticed in the 1988 Wimbledon matchup is that Graf had a little bit of straight cockiness. I love it. She's always been confident and all business - but there's a little cocky behavior in this video. Nothing drastic, but things she really never did later.

And, yeah, you could easily make that argument. 87-89 she wins 8 of 11 Slams played and makes the finals in the 3 she didn't win.

1995 and 1996, she wins all 6 Slams she played.

The peak results are fairly equal (though a little broader from 87-89), so it's really a matter of peak level of play. When was that?

 

[flutzingitaway]

Graf's exact peak is debateable. Seles fans would say it was 91-early 93 though guaranteed. PS- they are the only ones.

 

[buscemi]

Graf's exact peak is debateable. Seles fans would say it was 91-early 93 though guaranteed. PS- they are the only ones.

1991 definitely wasn't peak. But Graf's level at the 1992 French Open, Wimbledon 1992, and the 1993 Australian Open was, well, not peak, but very high.

 

[bluetrain4]

Graf's exact peak is debateable. Seles fans would say it was 91-early 93 though guaranteed. PS- they are the only ones.

I'd say she was in her prime, but not at her peak, though pretty high. Seles deserve a little credit for getting into her head slightly.

"Prime" to me is basically the period when the player - well at least in regards to the ATGs - are consistent contenders for the biggest titles.

During their prime, they may have one or multiple peaks, Steffi had little career outside of her prime.

 

[buscemi]

I'd say she was in her prime, but not at her peak, though pretty high. Seles deserve a little credit for getting into her head slightly.

"Prime" to me is basically the period when the player - well at least in regards to the ATGs - are consistent contenders for the biggest titles.

During their prime, they may have one or multiple peaks, Steffi had little career outside of her prime.

I agree on prime/peak, but even then, it's pretty close. It's hard to come up up with a couple of French Opens where Graf played better than in 1992, and it's hard to come up with a couple Australian Opens where she played better than in 1993.

 

[flutzingitaway]

I agree on prime/peak, but even then, it's pretty close. It's hard to come up up with a couple of French Opens where Graf played better than in 1992, and it's hard to come up with a couple Australian Opens where she played better than in 1993.

Australian Open- 1988, 1989, 1994
French Open- 1987, 1988, 1996

and those are just the obvious ones.

 

[buscemi]

Australian Open- 1988, 1989, 1994
French Open- 1987, 1988, 1996

and those are just the obvious ones.

In the 1996 French Open final, Graf was taken to 10-8 in the third set by ASV. At the 1987 French Open, Graf was taken to 7-5 in the third set in the SF against Sabatini and 8-6 in the third set in the F by Navratilova. Those are three very good opponents, but I think most would agree that Seles in the 1992 final was solidly better than any of them, and Graf barely lost to her, 10-8 in the third. From memory, Graf didn't look (much) better in 1987 and 1996 than she did in 1992.

1988 is a tough one. Graf looked fantastic, but other than Sabatini in the SF (6-3, 7-6 win), her opposition was very weak.

 

[flutzingitaway]

In the 1996 French Open final, Graf was taken to 10-8 in the third set by ASV.

And an incredible match it was, in many ways higher quality than the error filled 92 RG final between Graf and Seles were neither was playing their best.

The main reason it is obvious she was better in 96 though was she cruised past all her opponent until the final, including Martinez in the semis, a quality clay court player. While in 92 she struggled in many rounds, including losing a bagel set to Sanchez herself. How can you say she was worse in 96 to win an epic match vs a peak Sanchez, than 92 losing an embarassing bagel set to a much weaker Sanchez, and probably would have lost if Sanchez kept her form together, even for her 92 playing level which was considerably lower than 94-96 to begin with.

Keep in mind too Sanchez is a tougher match up for Graf than her actual playing quality so just comparing her to Seles as players is flawed. She has beaten Graf twice at the U.S Open where Seles never has for instance. Sanchez has a far harder time with Hingis than she did vs Graf, in fact a tougher time vs Hingis than anyone, including Seles. Tennis is all about match ups which people who understand the game well get. Sanchez even has far worse head to heads with not only Seles, but Hingis big time (2-18), and even a generally very old way past her prime Navratilova (3-12) than vs Graf (8-26). She was for whatever reason a supremely difficult match up for Graf per her actual playing standard.

the 1987 French Open, Graf was taken to 7-5 in the third set in the SF against Sabatini and 8-6 in the third set in the F by Navratilova. Those are three very good opponents, but I think most would agree that Seles in the 1992 final was solidly better than any of them, and Graf barely lost to her, 10-8 in the third. From memory, Graf didn't look (much) better in 1987 and 1996 than she did in 1992.

Your view is again too simplistic. Sabatini always had tough matches with Graf on clay imparticular. I would argue Navratilova of 87 was better than the Seles at the 92 French who nearly lost to Kijimuta, and obviously struggled with Sabatini and Graf, so had a hard time winning many of her matches at that French. Navratilova at the 87 French cruised past everyone until Graf, including beating Evert 6-2, 6-2 in the semis, super impressive. Seles by the way was down 4-2 in the 3rd set of the 92 French itself to Sabatini as well. Considering she had to come from behind to barely beat Sabatini in 92, not sure how you conclude she was automaticaly a clearly weaker opponent anyway, particularly since she was probably better in 88 than by mid 92 when she was already starting her slow decline (she already had her final career win over Graf for instance).

1988 is a tough one. Graf looked fantastic, but other than Sabatini in the SF (6-3, 7-6 win), her opposition was very weak.

Agreed, but you can only play who you play. And beating Sabatini in straight sets on clay, something Graf rarely did (something Seles even rarely did on clay, I think only 1 time in 5 clay matches), is always impressive. I am sure you would say Seles at the 92 Australian Open was exceptional (I would agree) and her opposition and draw there sucked as well. Form can be very high even with an easy draw. If you still struggle even with that easy draw, which neither Graf or Seles at those pointed events did, then that would be telling.

 

[buscemi]

And an incredible match it was, in many ways higher quality than the error filled 92 RG final between Graf and Seles were neither was playing their best.

The main reason it is obvious she was better in 96 though was she cruised past all her opponent until the final, including Martinez in the semis, a quality clay court player. While in 92 she struggled in many rounds, including losing a bagel set to Sanchez herself. How can you say she was worse in 96 to win an epic match vs a peak Sanchez, than 92 losing an embarassing bagel set to a much weaker Sanchez, and probably would have lost if Sanchez kept her form together, even for her 92 playing level which was considerably lower than 94-96 to begin with.

Keep in mind too Sanchez is a tougher match up for Graf than her actual playing quality so just comparing her to Seles as players is flawed. She has beaten Graf twice at the U.S Open where Seles never has for instance. Sanchez has a far harder time with Hingis than she did vs Graf, in fact a tougher time vs Hingis than anyone, including Seles. Tennis is all about match ups which people who understand the game well get. Sanchez even has far worse head to heads with not only Seles, but Hingis big time (2-18), and even a generally very old way past her prime Navratilova (3-12) than vs Graf (8-26). She was for whatever reason a supremely difficult match up for Graf per her actual playing standard.



Your view is again too simplistic. Sabatini always had tough matches with Graf on clay imparticular. I would argue Navratilova of 87 was better than the Seles at the 92 French who nearly lost to Kijimuta, and obviously struggled with Sabatini and Graf, so had a hard time winning many of her matches at that French. Navratilova at the 87 French cruised past everyone until Graf, including beating Evert 6-2, 6-2 in the semis, super impressive. Seles by the way was down 4-2 in the 3rd set of the 92 French itself to Sabatini as well. Considering she had to come from behind to barely beat Sabatini in 92, not sure how you conclude she was automaticaly a clearly weaker opponent anyway, particularly since she was probably better in 88 than by mid 92 when she was already starting her slow decline (she already had her final career win over Graf for instance).



Agreed, but you can only play who you play. And beating Sabatini in straight sets on clay, something Graf rarely did (something Seles even rarely did on clay, I think only 1 time in 5 clay matches), is always impressive. I am sure you would say Seles at the 92 Australian Open was exceptional (I would agree) and her opposition and draw there sucked as well. Form can be very high even with an easy draw. If you still struggle even with that easy draw, which neither Graf or Seles at those pointed events did, then that would be telling.

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you wrote, but I don't see how it changes the bottom line. Seles was obviously a difficult matchup for Graf on clay, Seles was the 2-time defending French Open champion in 1992, and Graf took her to 10-8 in the third set in the French Open final. It seems tough to argue that Graf was significantly worse in that match than she was in her finals against Navratilova (8-6 in the third) and ASV (10-8 in the third) b/c, despite the caveats you noted, Seles >>> Navratilova and ASV on clay.

 

[flutzingitaway]

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you wrote, but I don't see how it changes the bottom line. Seles was obviously a difficult matchup for Graf on clay, Seles was the 2-time defending French Open champion in 1992, and Graf took her to 10-8 in the third set in the French Open final. It seems tough to argue that Graf was significantly worse in that match than she was in her finals against Navratilova (8-6 in the third) and ASV (10-8 in the third) b/c, despite the caveats you noted, Seles >>> Navratilova and ASV on clay.

Navratilova won 2 RG titles (only 1 less than Seles), but was denied 3 by the undisputed clay GOAT Evert and another 1 by Graf. And she skipped a whole bunch of French Opens since in the 75-80 period nearly everyone was skipping RG and the AO. I am not sure it is clear at all Seles is better than prime Navratilova on clay. Navratilova is very underrated on clay since she is not a serve and volley player. More importantly though even if Seles is probably better than Nav on clay I don't believe at all she was playing better at the 92 French than Navratilova at the 87 French when you look at the scores and matches of both heading into the final. Since you love to compare scores to come to conclusions, ok which is more impressive, beating Evert (even an elder Evert) 6-2, 6-2 in the semis or struggling to beat Kijimuta and needing to come down from 4-2 down in the semis to Mrs. 3-15 in slam semis Sabatini, only coming back thanks to Gaby's weak serve basically.

And while I agree Seles is above ASV on clay, both are 3 time RG winners. Given the extreme match up situation with ASV and Graf that I already discussed, there is not a huge difference at all, and then when you add ASV was in tip top form at the 96 French which Seles clearly was not at the 92 French (like I said nearly losing to Kijimuta, LOL, and about half her matches) it would be easy to argue ASV at the 96 French was in fact a tougher opponent all things considered.

Lastly I watched Graf in both events and I have no doubt watching both that Graf was better at the 96 French (just like she was much better in general than 96 and 92 as her overall results prove). That is enough for me.

 

[buscemi]

Navratilova won 2 RG titles (only 1 less than Seles), but was denied 3 by the undisputed clay GOAT Evert and another 1 by Graf. And she skipped a whole bunch of French Opens since in the 75-80 period nearly everyone was skipping RG and the AO. I am not sure it is clear at all Seles is better than prime Navratilova on clay. Navratilova is very underrated on clay since she is not a serve and volley player. More importantly though even if Seles is probably better than Nav on clay I don't believe at all she was playing better at the 92 French than Navratilova at the 87 French when you look at the scores and matches of both heading into the final. Since you love to compare scores to come to conclusions, ok which is more impressive, beating Evert (even an elder Evert) 6-2, 6-2 in the semis or struggling to beat Kijimuta and needing to come down from 4-2 down in the semis to Mrs. 3-15 in slam semis Sabatini, only coming back thanks to Gaby's weak serve basically.

And while I agree Seles is above ASV on clay, both are 3 time RG winners. Given the extreme match up situation with ASV and Graf that I already discussed, there is not a huge difference at all, and then when you add ASV was in tip top form at the 96 French which Seles clearly was not at the 92 French (like I said nearly losing to Kijimuta, LOL, and about half her matches) it would be easy to argue ASV at the 96 French was in fact a tougher opponent all things considered.

Lastly I watched Graf in both events and I have no doubt watching both that Graf was better at the 96 French (just like she was much better in general than 96 and 92 as her overall results prove). That is enough for me.

As you know, it's not really fair to compare French titles won by Navratilova, ASV, and Seles given that Seles won at age 16, 17, and 18, with every indication she would have racked up many more if she weren't stabbed.

And, as I'm sure you also know, Seles often played close matches at the French. In 1990-1991, she played three setters against Kelesi (6-4 in the third), Maleeva (7-5 in the third), and Cecchini as well as a a 2 tiebreaker match against Meskhi.

Again, I'm not sure I hugely disagree with anything you write, but I disagree on the take-home. Graf took 2-time defending champion Seles to 10-8 in the 1992 French Open final, which required a high level. As I said in my initial post, "Graf's level at the 1992 French Open...was, well, not peak, but very high."

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Something that I never noticed in the 1988 Wimbledon matchup is that Graf had a little bit of straight cockiness. I love it. She's always been confident and all business - but there's a little cocky behavior in this video. Nothing drastic, but things she really never did later.

And, yeah, you could easily make that argument. 87-89 she wins 8 of 11 Slams played and makes the finals in the 3 she didn't win.

1995 and 1996, she wins all 6 Slams she played.

The peak results are fairly equal (though a little broader from 87-89), so it's really a matter of peak level of play. When was that?

I agree with both your and @BringBackWood. Late 80s Graf was a different beast. That state of mind was already going away in 1990. It was similar to how Fed began to play AFTER the 2007 AO which was the epitome of His Cockiness. But with Fed, he had the confidence to keep getting back into that zone while Graf seemed to strangely revert again and again to diffidence. One of the reasons why I have Seles winning more over Graf in 93-94 in a non-stabbing scenario (but NOT because Graf was at her peak then, as some Seles fans would claim, which is simply not true). The only times I saw signs of the late 80s Graf again were in Wimbledon 92 where she really rolled back the years and again in the AO '94 final. You can tell both from her body language and also her bounce. It was almost like her split step shrunk in height when she was low on confidence and she became less mobile and rather tight (and, as a result, more late on her shots than usual).

 

[flutzingitaway]

As you know, it's not really fair to compare French titles won by Navratilova, ASV, and Seles given that Seles won at age 16, 17, and 18, with every indication she would have racked up many more if she weren't stabbed.

And, as I'm sure you also know, Seles often played close matches at the French. In 1990-1991, she played three setters against Kelesi (6-4 in the third), Maleeva (7-5 in the third), and Cecchini as well as a a 2 tiebreaker match against Meskhi.

Again, I'm not sure I hugely disagree with anything you write, but I disagree on the take-home. Graf took 2-time defending champion Seles to 10-8 in the 1992 French Open final, which required a high level. As I said in my initial post, "Graf's level at the 1992 French Open...was, well, not peak, but very high."

But that first point is largely negated by Navratilova missing something like 12 RG titles, including some in years she was winning Wimbledon or was world #1 (eg- 78, 79, 80). Hence why I mentioned that. Plus Navratilova lost a bunch of additional French Opens to the clay GOAT. Seles faced Graf, who is not as great a clay courter as the undisputed clay GOAT/female Nadal- Chris Evert.

In 1991 she actually didn't have hardly any tough matches. The Cecchini was an early round which is different than being down 4-1 in the final set to a player not even in the top 100 even in a round of 16, or nearly losing in the semis.

What I am disagreeing with you on is that since she took Seles to 10-8 in the 3rd that automatically means she was playing better than an event she beat Sanchez Vicario 10-8 in the 3rd, and I think such simple thinking is immensely flawed. Especialy when as you even said yourself "as I'm sure you also know, Seles often played close matches at the French"; PS- including against some total nobodies even as you broke down. The reason I say Graf was playing better at the 87, 88, and 96 French Opens is plain and simple. I saw a large number of her matches, and she didn't struggle in any of them apart from the finals in 87 and 96, and a semi final with Sabatini. Which contrasts to 92 where she struggled in some matches, some against not so good opponents, and even ate a bagel in the semis from Sanchez (who was a much weaker player than the 94-96 version). If Graf was as near peak in the 92-January 93 period as you state she wouldn't have had such terrible showings at events like the U.S Open and YEC as she had.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

I agree on prime/peak, but even then, it's pretty close. It's hard to come up up with a couple of French Opens where Graf played better than in 1992, and it's hard to come up with a couple Australian Opens where she played better than in 1993.

@flutzingitaway has addressed RG 92. At AO 93, Graf's straight set wins were deceptive. She actually had her hands full with Capriati and ASV both in the first sets of both matches but saw them off and they both wilted away in the second. But her level wasn't THAT impressive compared to what she was capable of in her best AO campaigns, 94 being a strong counterexample. In fact, her level in the first set of the AO final was a surprise that way as she was quick off the blocks and striking the forehand quite well, serving well too, etc. Right from the time she dropped her serve against the run of play in the second set, she went into a funk. You could see it in her body language. This was where she was mentally weak from 90-93 and also 94 AFTER the AO campaign. You wouldn't see that in 95/96; even when she played badly, she didn't concede an inch and didn't give up hope. The 93 AO Graf would have never bounced back from a 6-0 second set shellacking to win the title but she did that in 95 USO. It wasn't just that Seles had just come back to tennis; it was that Graf remained resolute on serve in the third set where at AO, she got restless with every missed opportunity on Seles' hold games and eventually allowed it to affect her own service games. The break at 3-2 in the third for instance, she was up 30-0 and then Seles hits a screamer return and from that point on, suddenly she became diffident and also took herself too much to task over mistakes.

 

[flutzingitaway]

Speaking of Capriati she really stagnated in 92 and 93. It was dissapointing to see after what she showed the summer of 91 that 2 years later she would be losing in 3 straight slams in straight sets to Graf, and still ranked about 7th in the world. That was even before the big meltdown post U.S Open 93. She really literally just stopped improving after the 91 U.S Open, even before things went off the rails.

Some think if she had won that U.S Open semi with Seles and won the Open things would be really different for her, but I am not sure. Maybe her confidence and momentum would be higher, but the pressure also would be.

 

[buscemi]

But that first point is largely negated by Navratilova missing something like 12 RG titles, including some in years she was winning Wimbledon or was world #1 (eg- 78, 79, 80)....What I am disagreeing with you on is that since she took Seles to 10-8 in the 3rd that automatically means she was playing better than an event she beat Sanchez Vicario 10-8 in the 3rd, and I think such simple thinking is immensely flawed.

I don't even think we're really arguing here. I started this whole thread by saying Seles's level at the 1992 French Open wasn't quite peak but was very high. I'm not saying that Graf's level at the 1992 French Open was higher, let alone automatically higher than it was in 1996 based on Seles vs. ASV. I'm simply saying that Graf had a pretty high level in 1992 due to the quality of the competition, and I think pretty much anyone would acknowledge that Seles >> ASV/Navratilova on clay.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

I'm simply saying that Graf had a pretty high level in 1992 due to the quality of the competition, and I think pretty much anyone would acknowledge that Seles >> ASV/Navratilova on clay.

Agreed on both counts. More specifically, Graf played better in the RG final vis a vis her level in the matches running up to it. At AO 93, she faltered in sets 2 and 3 after playing well in set 1.

 

[buscemi]

@flutzingitaway has addressed RG 92. At AO 93, Graf's straight set wins were deceptive. She actually had her hands full with Capriati and ASV both in the first sets of both matches but saw them off and they both wilted away in the second. But her level wasn't THAT impressive compared to what she was capable of in her best AO campaigns, 94 being a strong counterexample. In fact, her level in the first set of the AO final was a surprise that way as she was quick off the blocks and striking the forehand quite well, serving well too, etc. Right from the time she dropped her serve against the run of play in the second set, she went into a funk. You could see it in her body language. This was where she was mentally weak from 90-93 and also 94 AFTER the AO campaign. You wouldn't see that in 95/96; even when she played badly, she didn't concede an inch and didn't give up hope. The 93 AO Graf would have never bounced back from a 6-0 second set shellacking to win the title but she did that in 95 USO. It wasn't just that Seles had just come back to tennis; it was that Graf remained resolute on serve in the third set where at AO, she got restless with every missed opportunity on Seles' hold games and eventually allowed it to affect her own service games. The break at 3-2 in the third for instance, she was up 30-0 and then Seles hits a screamer return and from that point on, suddenly she became diffident and also took herself too much to task over mistakes.

But I think you would agree that this is a difficult comparison to make. As you note, Graf looked great in the first set of the 1993 final before Seles's game kicked into gear in the second set and Graf went into a funk. Sure, you could say that Graf's level was better in the 1994 final b/c she maintained it throughout, but she was facing ASV. It's not hard to imagine Graf facing a non-stabbed Seles in the 1994 final, coming out strong, and again losing her mettle in sets 2 and 3. Does that mean that Graf's level was significantly higher in 1994 than it was in 1993. Possibly, but it's tough to measure.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

But I think you would agree that this is a difficult comparison to make. As you note, Graf looked great in the first set of the 1993 final before Seles's game kicked into gear in the second set and Graf went into a funk. Sure, you could say that Graf's level was better in the 1994 final b/c she maintained it throughout, but she was facing ASV. It's not hard to imagine Graf facing a non-stabbed Seles in the 1994 final, coming out strong, and again losing her mettle in sets 2 and 3. Does that mean that Graf's level was significantly higher in 1994 than it was in 1993. Possibly, but it's tough to measure.

Which is why I too wrote above in the thread that I would back Seles in the rest of 93 and 94 had she not been stabbed. Because Graf's improved confidence may itself have stemmed from weaker opponents helping her past the post (particularly applicable in the Wimbledon 93 final). That win seemed to turn things around for her and she played well at both USO 93 and AO 94, particularly in the finals.

It is a big what if as to how Graf would have responded to a non-stabbed Seles. As I have said before, the situation was now different from '91 where Graf simply didn't get to Seles in the three slams the latter played (and beat her in their only two meetings that year). Now Graf had been getting to Seles. If the outcome she had expected after Wimbledon 92 and the narrow RG loss was to start winning comfortably against Seles if not dominating her, that expectation was thwarted in the 93 AO final. She also played far better in that match than in her worst slam matches of the early 90s (USO 90 final, RG 91, USO 92 QF). While she leaked errors, these errors were also a result of being unable to get through Seles who was persistently defending and counter attacking. If you look at the point at 4-2 deuce in the third set which ends with a Graf forehand error, it was a really long point and Graf tried to force the issue by switching the play to the forehand side. With that being the case, the prognosis wasn't looking great for the rest of the year. Far be it for me to count out such a great champion but at least as far as the status quo was concerned, Graf was regressing...from a straight set win over ASV at Delray Beach to a three set loss to her at Miami. There were no signs as of that match that Graf was exploring different gameplans as a counter to Seles.

My little theory is that had Seles not been stabbed, Graf would have remained in a funk through to 94. She would have begun to pick up the pieces by 95 and likely won both W and USO that year. By 96, Seles would be ready for her own slump and Graf would probably have a good second run from 96 to 97, spilling over into 98. Injuries would probably derail the end of the 98 season. At this point, with their rivalry either at parity or Graf slightly ahead, she would call it a career. In saying this, I am calculating that the emergence of Hingis plus the Williams sisters would hurt Seles before they would get to Graf (which is how it actually panned out). So wherever Graf missed out in 97 or 98, Hingis/Venus/Davenport would probably pick up the rest.

 

[buscemi]

Which is why I too wrote above in the thread that I would back Seles in the rest of 93 and 94 had she not been stabbed. Because Graf's improved confidence may itself have stemmed from weaker opponents helping her past the post (particularly applicable in the Wimbledon 93 final). That win seemed to turn things around for her and she played well at both USO 93 and AO 94, particularly in the finals.

It is a big what if as to how Graf would have responded to a non-stabbed Seles. As I have said before, the situation was now different from '91 where Graf simply didn't get to Seles in the three slams the latter played (and beat her in their only two meetings that year). Now Graf had been getting to Seles. If the outcome she had expected after Wimbledon 92 and the narrow RG loss was to start winning comfortably against Seles if not dominating her, that expectation was thwarted in the 93 AO final. She also played far better in that match than in her worst slam matches of the early 90s (USO 90 final, RG 91, USO 92 QF). While she leaked errors, these errors were also a result of being unable to get through Seles who was persistently defending and counter attacking. If you look at the point at 4-2 deuce in the third set which ends with a Graf forehand error, it was a really long point and Graf tried to force the issue by switching the play to the forehand side. With that being the case, the prognosis wasn't looking great for the rest of the year. Far be it for me to count out such a great champion but at least as far as the status quo was concerned, Graf was regressing...from a straight set win over ASV at Delray Beach to a three set loss to her at Miami. There were no signs as of that match that Graf was exploring different gameplans as a counter to Seles.

My little theory is that had Seles not been stabbed, Graf would have remained in a funk through to 94. She would have begun to pick up the pieces by 95 and likely won both W and USO that year. By 96, Seles would be ready for her own slump and Graf would probably have a good second run from 96 to 97, spilling over into 98. Injuries would probably derail the end of the 98 season. At this point, with their rivalry either at parity or Graf slightly ahead, she would call it a career. In saying this, I am calculating that the emergence of Hingis plus the Williams sisters would hurt Seles before they would get to Graf (which is how it actually panned out). So wherever Graf missed out in 97 or 98, Hingis/Venus/Davenport would probably pick up the rest.

I agree with most of this, with the big tipping point possibly being 1995. Graf had 11 Majors before the stabbing while Seles had 8. If, as you say, Graf continues to slump in 1993 and 1994 (and a lingering injury issue that causes her to miss the 1995 Australian Open), she probably picks up 1-2 Majors during that stretch (1993 Wimbledon and maybe 1 more) to get to 12-13. Seles, meanwhile, probably picks up 1-2 Majors for the rest of 1993, 2-3 Majors in 1994, and has a great shot at the 1995 Australian Open. That leaves her with 11-14 Majors and 4 straight years at #1 from 1991-1994. In other words, it's close to a dead heat for who's the better player. I really wish we could have seen how their rivalry would have played out and especially how it would have played out in 1995. Would Seles have firmly taken her place ahead of Graf, or would Graf had gotten off the mat to re-stake her claim?

 

[Dolgopolov85]

I agree with most of this, with the big tipping point possibly being 1995. Graf had 11 Majors before the stabbing while Seles had 8. If, as you say, Graf continues to slump in 1993 and 1994 (and a lingering injury issue that causes her to miss the 1995 Australian Open), she probably picks up 1-2 Majors during that stretch (1993 Wimbledon and maybe 1 more) to get to 12-13. Seles, meanwhile, probably picks up 1-2 Majors for the rest of 1993, 2-3 Majors in 1994, and has a great shot at the 1995 Australian Open. That leaves her with 11-14 Majors and 4 straight years at #1 from 1991-1994. In other words, it's close to a dead heat for who's the better player. I really wish we could have seen how their rivalry would have played out and especially how it would have played out in 1995. Would Seles have firmly taken her place ahead of Graf, or would Graf had gotten off the mat to re-stake her claim?

The question that will forever remain hanging in the air...

 

[bluetrain4]

I agree with both your and @BringBackWood. Late 80s Graf was a different beast. That state of mind was already going away in 1990. It was similar to how Fed began to play AFTER the 2007 AO which was the epitome of His Cockiness. But with Fed, he had the confidence to keep getting back into that zone while Graf seemed to strangely revert again and again to diffidence. One of the reasons why I have Seles winning more over Graf in 93-94 in a non-stabbing scenario (but NOT because Graf was at her peak then, as some Seles fans would claim, which is simply not true). The only times I saw signs of the late 80s Graf again were in Wimbledon 92 where she really rolled back the years and again in the '94 final. You can tell both from her body language and also her bounce. It was almost like her split step shrunk in height when she was low on confidence and she became less mobile and rather tight (and, as a result, more late on her shots than usual).

Do you mean the 95 Wimbledon final? I assume just a typo.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Do you mean the 95 Wimbledon final? I assume just a typo.

Oh, I meant AO 94 final. Ha ha, she never did make it to the final at W that year, probably her worst slam match up to that point.

 

[flutzingitaway]

I don't even think we're really arguing here. I started this whole thread by saying Seles's level at the 1992 French Open wasn't quite peak but was very high. I'm not saying that Graf's level at the 1992 French Open was higher, let alone automatically higher than it was in 1996 based on Seles vs. ASV. I'm simply saying that Graf had a pretty high level in 1992 due to the quality of the competition, and I think pretty much anyone would acknowledge that Seles >> ASV/Navratilova on clay.

OK fair enough on the first part. We probably mostly agree and we just aren't seeing it I guess.

I agree Seles probably should rank over ASV and Navratilova on clay, I just feel Navratilova is often VERY underrated on clay. IMO she is not a 2 time RG caliber clay courter, the same way Seles is probably not a 3 time RG caliber clay courter given her circumstances, and Henin is probably even more than a 4 time caliber RG winning clay courter with her super early retirement (self imposed of course, not arguing that) and probably could have won many more RG titles in the super weak clay field to follow in the years to come with even Sharapova winning RG titles. A lot of people forget how many RG titles she was denied by the undisputed clay GOAT Evert, remember Evert is basically the female Nadal on clay and really is a 10 time RG winner as she missed the 76-78 French for World team tennis and won the 75-77 U.S Open 8 months earlier each time on clay which basically was the real French Open those years. Plus the 87 one to Graf. I am not one of those who likes the "so and so would have won this if so and so didn't exist" but I do think she is very underrated on clay by a lot of people and @suwanee4712 our 70s and 80s guru would agree. I think she is really more like a 4 time sort of caliber RG winning clay courter, the same way Seles and Henin are probably really 6 time RG winning type caliber type clay courters (even though Henin probably would have vultured the super weak clay era of later years to win something like 9 or 10 RG titles and smash Evert's RG record, but I don't think she is really that kind of great on clay and it would have just been the weak clay field). I think a large reason she is so underrated on clay is one of course the obvious of only 2 RG titles, but two since she is generally speaking a serve and volley player and that creates a certain stigma in itself since most clay greats are hardcore baseliners. Also she did not play enough of the major clay events outside of RG that people are familiar with, she played some, but not the more popular ones, and of course skipped RG many times even in her prime and semi prime-ish years. All that hurts how she is perceived on clay.

There is absolutely no way I believe prime to prime ASV is a better clay courter than peak Navratilova of 82-87, not a chance. Despite that she has more RG titles. ASV is a much more regular workhorse on clay, played more of the popular known clay events regularly, and got pretty lucky with various circumstances to somehow get 3 RG titles, so that might create a perception to some, but having seen both play many times I have no doubt for me prime Navratilova >> ASV on clay and even overall on clay if you are talking actual better clay player, not just more accomplished or more suited to the surface. I am not even sure if Court who has 5 RG titles in a pretty good clay era is really a better clay courter than fully prime Navratilova, although she probably is a bit better just in the sense of having a much longer prime on the surface and playing a lot more, but prime to prime I think translated into the same era Navratilova is probably better even than her.

Navratilova beat a prime Evert 6-3, 6-1 in a RG final. That alone speaks to her prowess on clay. At 30 years old she nearly beat a prime Graf (who IMO as I said was better than the 91-early 93 Graf which Seles was facing) in the 87 RG final. After the 85 RG final the consensus was Evert had to play an amazing match to just barely beat an out of for Navratilova, and again this is Evert the clay GOAT and female Nadal of clay. Martina N is so underrated on clay for all the reasons I said even if I agree Seles is probably still better all things considered. Considering she was extremely competitive with a prime Evert on clay though, I have no doubt she also would be competitive prime to prime with Graf and Seles on clay too though.

 

[suwanee4712]

Oh I would definitely take Martina over Sanchez on any court, including Chatrier. For Sanchez to beat Martina she would need just right conditions like wind and maybe some drizzle. Or she would need Martina to be off maybe like she was in the 87 Australian. Under those conditions, I could see Sanchez winning in three.

Under normal conditions I would expect an in form Martina to beat Sanchez comfortably. However, this is all strictly conjecture as we never saw these two play when both were near their best.

Considering Martina lost three French finals to Chris and Steffi by a scant few points, I'd take Martina's record at the French over Sanchez.

One off thing that just came to my mind about both players, neither won the Italian, and I don't think either won the German. However, Martina won a large number of clay events including Hilton Head and Amelia Island. The Spanish Open, which Martina never won, existed but only started to come into prominence in the early 90's.

 

[flutzingitaway]

Oh I would definitely take Martina over Sanchez on any court, including Chatrier. For Sanchez to beat Martina she would need just right conditions like wind and maybe some drizzle. Or she would need Martina to be off maybe like she was in the 87 Australian. Under those conditions, I could see Sanchez winning in three.

Under normal conditions I would expect an in form Martina to beat Sanchez comfortably. However, this is all strictly conjecture as we never saw these two play when both were near their best.

Considering Martina lost three French finals to Chris and Steffi by a scant few points, I'd take Martina's record at the French over Sanchez.

One off thing that just came to my mind about both players, neither won the Italian, and I don't think either won the German. However, Martina won a large number of clay events including Hilton Head and Amelia Island. The Spanish Open, which Martina never won, existed but only started to come into prominence in the early 90's.

Only thing I disagree with is I would say she lost the 85 and 87 French finals by a scant few points. Not sure the other one you are referring to. She lost the 75 and 86 French finals to Chris in 3 sets, but I wouldn't say either were by a scant few points either.

In fairness to Sanchez Vicario she did lose the 96 French final to Graf by a scant few points too, and lost 2 other finals to Graf or Seles, but I think she also majorly benefited form the Seles stabbing, and so many different circumstances at the French post 93. Avoiding Hingis at the 98 French when Hingis was killing her everywhere, including on clay. No way on earth she wins that title if she plays Hingis in the quarters, semis, or finals, and if Seles does not take out Hingis for her. And just general being in the much poorer half of the draw and avoiding any of her main clay opponents even in that half (Pierce, Martinez, Coetzer), and Serena choking badly from a clear winning position in the round of 16. The rain delay during the 94 final without which Pierce probably would have continued her 94 tournament form where she destroyed everyone including Graf, which Sanchez Vicario IMO would have never stopped. And of course Seles being out.