Stats the big 3 need to become the goat

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EnglishNadal

EnglishNadal

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These are the stats the big 3 need to be called the GOAT. These are the 7 most important statistics in the GOAT race. Because it’s so close between the big 3 I think the GOAT will need to be leading in at least 5 of the 7 statistics. In order of importantance

Most grand slams
Current holder federer 20 slams

Most weeks at number 1
Current holder federer 310 weeks

Most year end 1
Current holder federer 5 years

Most World Tour Finals
Current holders Djokovic and federer 6 WTFs

Most masters 1000s
Current holder nadal 33 masters

Olympic gold medal in singles
Current holder nadal 1 gold

Leading head 2 head record against rivals
Current holder Djokovic


Federer is still in pole position to go down as the GOAT. But a few of his main stats are under real thread from mainly Djokovic.
 
EnglishNadal said:
These are the stats the big 3 need to be called the GOAT. These are the 7 most important statistics in the GOAT race. Because it’s so close between the big 3 I think the GOAT will need to be leading in at least 5 of the 7 statistics. In order of importantance

Most grand slams
Current holder federer 20 slams

Most weeks at number 1
Current holder federer 310 weeks

Most year end 1
Current holder federer 5 years

Most World Tour Finals
Current holders Djokovic and federer 6 WTFs

Most masters 1000s
Current holder nadal 33 masters

Olympic gold medal in singles
Current holder nadal 1 gold

Leading head 2 head record against rivals
Current holder Djokovic


Federer is still in pole position to go down as the GOAT. But a few of his main stats are under real thread from mainly Djokovic.
Click to expand...
Pete holds the record for YE#1, not Fed.
And Murray holds two OSGs, so Nadal is not the leader and OSG means **** in GOAT debate.
 
EnglishNadal said:
These are the stats the big 3 need to be called the GOAT. These are the 7 most important statistics in the GOAT race. Because it’s so close between the big 3 I think the GOAT will need to be leading in at least 5 of the 7 statistics. In order of importantance

Most grand slams
Current holder federer 20 slams

Most weeks at number 1
Current holder federer 310 weeks

Most year end 1
Current holder federer 5 years

Most World Tour Finals
Current holders Djokovic and federer 6 WTFs

Most masters 1000s
Current holder nadal 33 masters

Olympic gold medal in singles
Current holder nadal 1 gold

Leading head 2 head record against rivals
Current holder Djokovic


Federer is still in pole position to go down as the GOAT. But a few of his main stats are under real thread from mainly Djokovic.
Click to expand...

Fed holds the record for most WTFs. Djoko is tied for second with Lendl and Sampras.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
EnglishNadal said:
These are the stats the big 3 need to be called the GOAT. These are the 7 most important statistics in the GOAT race. Because it’s so close between the big 3 I think the GOAT will need to be leading in at least 5 of the 7 statistics. In order of importantance

Most grand slams
Current holder federer 20 slams

Most weeks at number 1
Current holder federer 310 weeks

Most year end 1
Current holder federer 5 years

Most World Tour Finals
Current holders Djokovic and federer 6 WTFs

Most masters 1000s
Current holder nadal 33 masters

Olympic gold medal in singles
Current holder nadal 1 gold

Leading head 2 head record against rivals
Current holder Djokovic


Federer is still in pole position to go down as the GOAT. But a few of his main stats are under real thread from mainly Djokovic.
Click to expand...

You have forgot single most important criteria. Winning all first tier tournaments. If this is achieved by more than 1 player other criteria come in place to distinguish between them.
 
EnglishNadal said:
These are the stats the big 3 need to be called the GOAT. These are the 7 most important statistics in the GOAT race. Because it’s so close between the big 3 I think the GOAT will need to be leading in at least 5 of the 7 statistics. In order of importantance

Most grand slams
Current holder federer 20 slams

Most weeks at number 1
Current holder federer 310 weeks

Most year end 1
Current holder federer 5 years

Most World Tour Finals
Current holders Djokovic and federer 6 WTFs

Most masters 1000s
Current holder nadal 33 masters

Olympic gold medal in singles
Current holder nadal 1 gold

Leading head 2 head record against rivals
Current holder Djokovic


Federer is still in pole position to go down as the GOAT. But a few of his main stats are under real thread from mainly Djokovic.
Click to expand...
You forgot most WTF titles. I wonder why...
 
By the time their careers end Djokovic will likely have the most year-end number 1s and more WTF championships; also the most masters 1000 and the H2H lead.
 
KINGROGER said:
Slams are the main statistic. But if Djokovic gets to 19-20 and Fed finishes on 20 then Djokovic has his arguments too. Rafa I feel needs a couple more non RG slams to be in the co-GOAT discussion.

Olympic singles gold and H2H are irrelevant.
Click to expand...

Then you're being way too generous here.

I'd have to give the edge to Sampras if Fed had retired with 14 slams. Sampras was first to 14 slams, and first takes precedence. I'd consider Djokodal as even with Fed if they won 22-23 slams, especially with how poor their younger gens are. 20 is not enough.

Fed lost 10 slam finals to players 5+ years younger than him.
Djokodal lost a combined 'zero' slam finals to anyone 3+ years younger, let alone 5+ years younger. The youngsters are making it way too easy for Djokodal. So much so that even Fed is beating them, and he's older than Djokodal by 5+ years.
 
oldmanfan said:
Then you're being way too generous here.

I'd have to give the edge to Sampras if Fed had retired with 14 slams. Sampras was first to 14 slams, and first takes precedence. I'd consider Djokodal as even with Fed if they won 22-23 slams, especially with how poor their younger gens are. 20 is not enough.

Fed lost 10 slam finals to players 5+ years younger than him.
Djokodal lost a combined 'zero' slam finals to anyone 3+ years younger, let alone 5+ years younger. The youngsters are making it way too easy for Djokodal. So much so that even Fed is beating them, and he's older than Djokodal by 5+ years.
Click to expand...
Good points. 2015- present is one of the weakest period in tennis history which has made it easier for Djokovic, Nadal and even 35-36 year old Federer to clean up.
 
oldmanfan said:
Then you're being way too generous here.

I'd have to give the edge to Sampras if Fed had retired with 14 slams. Sampras was first to 14 slams, and first takes precedence. I'd consider Djokodal as even with Fed if they won 22-23 slams, especially with how poor their younger gens are. 20 is not enough.

Fed lost 10 slam finals to players 5+ years younger than him.
Djokodal lost a combined 'zero' slam finals to anyone 3+ years younger, let alone 5+ years younger. The youngsters are making it way too easy for Djokodal. So much so that even Fed is beating them, and he's older than Djokodal by 5+ years.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, objectively it wouldn't work like that :rolleyes:
 
oldmanfan said:
Then you're being way too generous here.

I'd have to give the edge to Sampras if Fed had retired with 14 slams. Sampras was first to 14 slams, and first takes precedence. I'd consider Djokodal as even with Fed if they won 22-23 slams, especially with how poor their younger gens are. 20 is not enough.

Fed lost 10 slam finals to players 5+ years younger than him.
Djokodal lost a combined 'zero' slam finals to anyone 3+ years younger, let alone 5+ years younger. The youngsters are making it way too easy for Djokodal. So much so that even Fed is beating them, and he's older than Djokodal by 5+ years.
Click to expand...

Solid post .

You are getting into the bad books of Djoker fan base with immediate effect
 
oldmanfan said:
Then you're being way too generous here.

I'd have to give the edge to Sampras if Fed had retired with 14 slams. Sampras was first to 14 slams, and first takes precedence. I'd consider Djokodal as even with Fed if they won 22-23 slams, especially with how poor their younger gens are. 20 is not enough.

Fed lost 10 slam finals to players 5+ years younger than him.
Djokodal lost a combined 'zero' slam finals to anyone 3+ years younger, let alone 5+ years younger. The youngsters are making it way too easy for Djokodal. So much so that even Fed is beating them, and he's older than Djokodal by 5+ years.
Click to expand...
Why stop at 23GS? Just say no one can ever be greater than Fed, no matter how much better player and no matter how much more accomplished someone would be.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk
 
tennisaddict said:
Solid post .

You are getting into the bad books of Djoker fan base with immediate effect
Click to expand...

Well, it is what it is.

These youngsters are even allowing 35yrs+ old, declined Fed to win 3 slams. Not just win, dominate. Fed made it back to #1 playing a 70% schedule. Sheesh! (but being a Fedfan, I ain't complaining, just facts)

Agassi, an ATG, retired at 35yrs+ (when Fed was ~24yrs old). Agassi skipped a few years off tour, so at 35, he's more like a 32-33 yrs old. Still, Fed basically sent him there, winning their last 8 matches, after losing the first 3. What have the 20-26yrs old youngsters been doing since 2011? Let retirement-Agassi-aged Federer be the 1st or 2nd best player in the world, making slam SF/F/wins way too often. This advantage naturally extends, to an even larger degree, to younger greats (a full generation younger!) like Djokodal since they all play in the same years.

Is Basel2018 here yet? ;)
 
Here’s what Nole needs to dethrone Fed’;

2 more WTF
2 more YE1
About 90 more weeks at #1
1 more AO
1 more FO

With that Nole will be ahead of Fed everywhere except Wimbledon, the USO, Cincy, and Madrid. It won’t make Nole automatically GOAT. But it will change the debate. today there is broad agreement that Fed is the GOAT. But if that advantage is limited to two slams and two masters then the broad agreement disappears. Watch and see.
 
GabeT said:
Here’s what Nole needs to dethrone Fed’;

2 more WTF
2 more YE1
About 90 more weeks at #1
1 more AO
1 more FO

With that Nole will be ahead of Fed everywhere except Wimbledon, the USO, Cincy, and Madrid. It won’t make Nole automatically GOAT. But it will change the debate. today there is broad agreement that Fed is the GOAT. But if that advantage is limited to two slams and two masters then the broad agreement disappears. Watch and see.
Click to expand...

FO is the hardest for him to achieve.Even if Nadal is in bad form or loses there Djokovic win is not guaranteed.Remember 2015 - Djokovic was planning to vulture this FO but Stan crushed his dreams.Plus Murray wont help him this time
 
itrium84 said:
Why stop at 23GS? Just say no one can ever be greater than Fed, no matter how much better player and no matter how much more accomplished someone would be.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I see your sarcasm, and I see that you think I'm being unreasonable. But am I?

Look at it this way. Fed managed to win 3of4 slams played, right after a 6-months break, all within 13 months. Do you think with that competition, Djokodal can't win even more being 5yrs+ younger? They could, they should, and they have.

So no, 3 != 3, hence why I said 20 != 20 with how bad the youngsters have been. So bad that even 35yrs+ Fed benefitted, let alone Djokodal.
 
GabeT said:
OG is irrelevant for ATG/GOAT debates
Click to expand...

Not really.

My apologies, as Djokovic has only had 3 attempts at Olympic Gold. Federer has had 4.

This is a really big blot on their copybooks.

Times have moved on. The Olympic Singles Gold is now one of the greatest prizes in tennis. And it's an area where two out of the Big 4 are sorely lacking. We can even cut Roger some slack, because he has a famous Olympic Gold Medal in doubles, partnering Stan Wawrinka in Beijing.

It's just Novak who is lacking on the biggest sporting stage of all.
 
TimHenmanATG said:
Not really.

My apologies, as Djokovic has only had 3 attempts at Olympic Gold. Federer has had 4.

This is a really big blot on their copybooks.

Times have moved on. The Olympic Singles Gold is now one of the greatest prizes in tennis. And it's an area where two out of the Big 4 are sorely lacking. We can even cut Roger some slack, because he has a famous Olympic Gold Medal in doubles, partnering Stan Wawrinka in Beijing.

It's just Novak who is lacking on the biggest sporting stage of all.
Click to expand...
It’s something all the players want, for national pride. But it happens only every 4 years, is new to tennis pros, and simply not part of the tour.
 
GabeT said:
Here’s what Nole needs to dethrone Fed’;

2 more WTF
2 more YE1
About 90 more weeks at #1
1 more AO
1 more FO

With that Nole will be ahead of Fed everywhere except Wimbledon, the USO, Cincy, and Madrid. It won’t make Nole automatically GOAT. But it will change the debate. today there is broad agreement that Fed is the GOAT. But if that advantage is limited to two slams and two masters then the broad agreement disappears. Watch and see.
Click to expand...
Don't you think it's important by how much he would be ahead? I don't subscribe to the view that Slams are the only thing that matters, and taking records like WTF and weeks at #1 will propel Djokovic in the ranks of greatest players significantly. But how is he going to be considered greater than Federer if he was unable to even close in on the record for the most important titles in tennis? I mean, Federer would still be a very close second in all the other records bar Masters. All of that without considering that although it seems extremely unlikely Federer could surprise the world again with a big win.
 
GabeT said:
Here’s what Nole needs to dethrone Fed’;

2 more WTF
2 more YE1
About 90 more weeks at #1
1 more AO
1 more FO

With that Nole will be ahead of Fed everywhere except Wimbledon, the USO, Cincy, and Madrid. It won’t make Nole automatically GOAT. But it will change the debate. today there is broad agreement that Fed is the GOAT. But if that advantage is limited to two slams and two masters then the broad agreement disappears. Watch and see.
Click to expand...

Well if there is a 2-4 major difference in each of Wimb and USO , then the comparison is still meaningless
 
GabeT said:
It’s something all the players want, for national pride. But it happens only every 4 years, is new to tennis pros, and simply not part of the tour.
Click to expand...

Murray, Nadal and Del Potro seem to have adapted to it well enough.

serbias-flagbearer-novak-djokovic-leads-his-delegation-in-the-opening-picture-id149380547

_90709394_mediaitem90708463.jpg

novak-djokovic-cries-after-loss-olympics-03.jpg
 
The Fedfather said:
Don't you think it's important by how much he would be ahead? I don't subscribe to the view that Slams are the only thing that matters, and taking records like WTF and weeks at #1 will propel Djokovic in the ranks of greatest players significantly. But how is he going to be considered greater than Federer if he was unable to even close in on the record for the most important titles in tennis? I mean, Federer would still be a very close second in all the other records bar Masters. All of that without considering that although it seems extremely unlikely Federer could surprise the world again with a big win.
Click to expand...
But I’m not arguing that that Nole, in the scenario I described, will be GOAT. What I am arguing is that with those wins Fed stops being automatically the GOAT.

What kind of GOAT would Fed be if his advantage over Nole is limited to 2 of the 4 slams and 2 of the 9 masters?
 
tennisaddict said:
Well if there is a 2-4 major difference in each of Wimb and USO , then the comparison is still meaningless
Click to expand...
No, it just tells us that Fed is a lot better at those two tournaments, which we know. But Nole and Fed played in an era with 14 top tournaments and went after all 4 slams. If Fed is ahead only in two of the slams and 2 of the 9 masters many will wonder if is still qualified to be GOAT. I don’t think you can be GOAT if you are only better than a competitor at a small subset of all tournaments.
 
TimHenmanATG said:
Murray, Nadal and Del Potro seem to have adapted to it well enough.

serbias-flagbearer-novak-djokovic-leads-his-delegation-in-the-opening-picture-id149380547

_90709394_mediaitem90708463.jpg

novak-djokovic-cries-after-loss-olympics-03.jpg
Click to expand...

Dude, Olympic Gold is useless in GOAT debates. It's just a nice little bonus for your resume. You only play 6 matches and only one BO5. It's basically only slightly more difficult to win than a Masters 1000. In a Slam, you have to win 8 more sets.
 
GabeT said:
No, it just tells us that Fed is a lot better at those two tournaments, which we know. But Nole and Fed played in an era with 14 top tournaments and went after all 4 slams. If Fed is ahead only in two of the slams and 2 of the 9 masters many will wonder if is still qualified to be GOAT. I don’t think you can be GOAT if you are only better than a competitor at a small subset of all tournaments.
Click to expand...

This way of slicing and dicing stats makes for good comedy

Tell RAfa that his gap with Novak at FO just counts the same as Novak’s over Rafa at USO. LMAO
 
GabeT said:
But I’m not arguing that that Nole, in the scenario I described, will be GOAT. What I am arguing is that with those wins Fed stops being automatically the GOAT.

What kind of GOAT would Fed be if his advantage over Nole is limited to 2 of the 4 slams and 2 of the 9 masters?
Click to expand...
Nobody is the GOAT automatically. Federer achieved more than any other male player in history which is why he is widely considered to be the greatest player. Even with Federer's advantage over Djokovic limited to 2 of the 4 slams and 2 of the 9 masters - a weird metric IMO - he will continue to have the advantage, right? His overall achievements would still be greater in many people's opinion which is why he would be considered the greatest by the general public.
 
oldmanfan said:
Then you're being way too generous here.

I'd have to give the edge to Sampras if Fed had retired with 14 slams. Sampras was first to 14 slams, and first takes precedence. I'd consider Djokodal as even with Fed if they won 22-23 slams, especially with how poor their younger gens are. 20 is not enough.

Fed lost 10 slam finals to players 5+ years younger than him.
Djokodal lost a combined 'zero' slam finals to anyone 3+ years younger, let alone 5+ years younger. The youngsters are making it way too easy for Djokodal. So much so that even Fed is beating them, and he's older than Djokodal by 5+ years.
Click to expand...

This logic is flawed and I see it resurface everytime someone else is holding the mantle other than Federer. Djokodal may not have any younger players severely challenging them but they did have an established and dominant ATG who they had to dethrone to take the mantle at the beginning of their careers. Federer did not. Not only did Federer not have to do that at the beginning of his career, he also stayed in good shape and top form long enough to benefit from the vacuum just like Djokodal have done so at the latter part of their careers.
 
tennisaddict said:
This way of slicing and dicing stats makes for good comedy

Tell RAfa that his gap with Novak at FO just counts the same as Novak’s over Rafa at USO. LMAO
Click to expand...
But you are looking at just two slams. I’m looking at the whole career.

In the scenario I outlined:

Nole has more YE1
Nole has more weeks at #1
Nole has better record at 2 of the 4 slams
Nole has more WTFs
Nole has more masters (including winning all masters)

It’s not just comparing two tourneys

In this scenario I am betting many will argue the GOAT race is debatable and that Nole has a legitimate claim.

I would also point out Nole would have a winning h2h which the press loves (although I don’t find relevant)
 
The Fedfather said:
Nobody is the GOAT automatically. Federer achieved more than any other male player in history which is why he is widely considered to be the greatest player. Even with Federer's advantage over Djokovic limited to 2 of the 4 slams and 2 of the 9 masters - a weird metric IMO - he will continue to have the advantage, right? His overall achievements would still be greater in many people's opinion which is why he would be considered the greatest by the general public.
Click to expand...
That’s my point. I don’t think that if Nole is ahead in time at number 1, masters, WTF, and half of the slams that Fed has accomplished more. In that scenario Fed will only have accomplished more in Wimbledon and the USO
 
I would add

Total titles

Fed - 98
Ned- 80
Djok - 72

Winning%

Top 10 wins
Top 10 winning%

Perhaps a few more minor variables.
 
The Fedfather said:
Nobody is the GOAT automatically. Federer achieved more than any other male player in history which is why he is widely considered to be the greatest player. Even with Federer's advantage over Djokovic limited to 2 of the 4 slams and 2 of the 9 masters - a weird metric IMO - he will continue to have the advantage, right? His overall achievements would still be greater in many people's opinion which is why he would be considered the greatest by the general public.
Click to expand...

Yeah, not sure what to make of his post. If Federer is ahead by 2 slams, he'd still be the consensus GOAT.
 
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