Stiff but arm-friendly racquet mid size?

Xfimpg

Professional
@Paulc
How would you compare sweetspot size between the POG and Diablo mid?

How does the Diablo mid respond to off-center shots? comparing to the POG which seems quite harsh.

Thanks
 

PaulC

Professional
A stiff but arm-friendly racquet????

An iron fist in a velvet glove, eh?

A flexy frame like a Prestige Classic 600 can turn into an arm-killer if a TE sufferer strung it with BB ALU at 63lbs.

Whereas a stiffer frame like a Wilson Tour 90 or POG can be arm friendly if they are strung with softer strings at lower tension -- at least compare with "modern" frames at 70+ RA
 

Ronaldo

Bionic Poster
Because of his demands, there are not a lot racquets out there that are compatible.

Pretty common 15-20 yrs ago. This thread needs that Hot Tub Wayback Machine. Or at least Rick Astley, whose song is being played tonite in Toronto. Btw, anyone have luck with those Boris Becker racquets?
 
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PaulC

Professional
@Paulc
How would you compare sweetspot size between the POG and Diablo mid?

How does the Diablo mid respond to off-center shots? comparing to the POG which seems quite harsh.

Thanks

Again, it heavily depends on tension and string stiffness.

Since I strung my POG at higher tensions to minimize string movement, the sweetspot is smaller than Diablo for me by default.

I strung my Diablos at lower 40 lbs hybrids, so it enlarged the sweetspot for me quite a bit without worrying string movement due to the denser pattern, there's almost no off-center shots for me.

Then again, you may feel that it's a little too trampoline-ish for your taste.

I guess a full-bed PSGO at 50-52 lbs in this frame may works for your case.
 

Xfimpg

Professional
Again, it heavily depends on tension and string stiffness.

Since I strung my POG at higher tensions to minimize string movement, the sweetspot is smaller than Diablo for me by default.

I strung my Diablos at lower 40 lbs hybrids, so it enlarged the sweetspot for me quite a bit without worrying string movement due to the denser pattern, there's almost no off-center shots for me.

Then again, you may feel that it's a little too trampoline-ish for your taste.

I guess a full-bed PSGO at 50-52 lbs in this frame may works for your case.[/QUOTE

That would be a concern, stringing the Diablo at less than 60lbs with PSGD or even PSGO. My experience with low-powered racquets is that anything less than 60-63 the ball is in the back fence. :-|
 

martini1

Hall of Fame
Dead alu? I used it for only 4-6 hours... :(

Then the problem shouldn't come from the racket setup. Although I agree that 58lb full bed poly may seem high, especially on a mid, I would also talk to a coach and see if there are any fixes on your swing that can help ease up the TE. Sometimes it's also you played on while injured and never got a chance to recover 100% (and make things worse).
 

PaulC

Professional
That would be a concern, stringing the Diablo at less than 60lbs with PSGD or even PSGO. My experience with low-powered racquets is that anything less than 60-63 the ball is in the back fence. :-|

I was once a firm 58-60lbs ONLY club members myself in college, and when I worked part-time for a pro shop stringing rackets, many customers were too.

But since the advancement of the 3rd generation softer co-polys, I turned into a low-tension believer.

You really have to try out *softer" co-polys hybriding with syn guts at lower tensions before you know it actually works pretty well and are pretty comfortable without worrying over-hits.

I have converted many customers to do the same back then, none are having TE problems so far, NOR do they fly many shots to back fence, but the exact tension range need to be trial-and-errored by each player individually a few times of course :)

Regarding the 52-54 lbs PSGO recommendation, it's based on the denser pattern and hence no need for the same high tension as POG to prevent string movement, plus factoring in your TE. You may find 60+lbs is still playable for you.
 
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Ronaldo

Bionic Poster
You are looking for a current racquet but the Wilson HPS 5.0 95 may be ideal. TW had the Slazenger Pro Braided 95 on sale last Wednesday.
 
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Xfimpg

Professional
You are looking for a current racquet but the Wilson HPS 5.0 95 may be ideal. TW had the Slazenger Pro Braided 95 on sale last Wednesday.

Wilson HPS 5.0 95? Are you sure? Won't I need a bionic arm to play this thing?

Wilson Hyper Pro Staff 5.0 Midplus
Head Size: 95 sq. in. / 613 sq. cm.
Length: 27.00 inches / 68.58 cm
Strung Weight: 12.30 oz / 349 g
Balance: 10pts HL
Swing Weight: 326
Stiffness: 74
Beam Width: 21.0mm
Tip/Shaft: 21.0mm / 21.0mm
Composition: Graphite & Hyper Carbon
Power Level: Medium
String Pattern: 16 Mains/20 Crosses
Main Skip: 7T,9T,7H,9H
String Tension: 53-63
 

Ronaldo

Bionic Poster
Wilson HPS 5.0 95? Are you sure? Won't I need a bionic arm to play this thing?

Wilson Hyper Pro Staff 5.0 Midplus
Head Size: 95 sq. in. / 613 sq. cm.
Length: 27.00 inches / 68.58 cm
Strung Weight: 12.30 oz / 349 g
Balance: 10pts HL
Swing Weight: 326
Stiffness: 74
Beam Width: 21.0mm
Tip/Shaft: 21.0mm / 21.0mm
Composition: Graphite & Hyper Carbon
Power Level: Medium
String Pattern: 16 Mains/20 Crosses
Main Skip: 7T,9T,7H,9H
String Tension: 53-63

Pain is temporary, this is nirvana for Rip Van Winkle
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
I hit hard, I serve hard (harder than anyone at the courts I go to, including over 50 players and a couple of Open level guys).
But I'm fragile, at a skinny 5'11" and 150 lbs., and 64 years old.

I hit with Lee and faced his serve. It definitely was on of the fastest serves i have faced, and that lefty spin is hell
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
Pretty common 15-20 yrs ago. This thread needs that Hot Tub Wayback Machine. Or at least Rick Astley, whose song is being played tonite in Toronto. Btw, anyone have luck with those Boris Becker racquets?
Unfortunately, I haven't played with a Boris Becker racquet that I've liked. Just not my cup of tea.
 

Xfimpg

Professional
Unfortunately, I haven't played with a Boris Becker racquet that I've liked. Just not my cup of tea.

I had the 1987 PUma version that Becker used and the only thing I remember was hating it to the point that I "Fernando Gonzales' it".
 

Xfimpg

Professional
To alleviate the POG TE mystery, I have so far retained:

- Plastidip the racquet to reduce vibrations or at least the frame shots
- Change from full bed syn gut at 63lbs to hybrid in the 40s or 50s
- go to a Prince Tour Diablo mid
- go to a Wilson Hyper Pro Staff 5.0
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
I had the 1987 PUma version that Becker used and the only thing I remember was hating it to the point that I "Fernando Gonzales' it".
Actually, we were referring to the Boris Becker BRAND racquets, which share some traits with Volkl racquets (as Becker once had ownership in Volkl).

The racquets, like the Estusa, that Becker used to play with were pretty good as they were old-school, heavy, flexy racquets. However, the Boris Becker branded racquets feel weird to me.
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
To alleviate the POG TE mystery, I have so far retained:

- Plastidip the racquet to reduce vibrations or at least the frame shots
- Change from full bed syn gut at 63lbs to hybrid in the 40s or 50s
- go to a Prince Tour Diablo mid
- go to a Wilson Hyper Pro Staff 5.0

Personally i would go lower than 40. If i can do it, anyone can.

I had a prostaff hyper 5.0. It was a great stick, but the POG is way arm friendlier. I would not recommend the hyper over the POG on any level comfort or performance. Though maybe i had a different racket as wilson had a bunch of series. It was the hypercarbon 5.0 but this was say 4-6 years ago.

Also try the shockshield grip and do put some weight on the thing. Heavier rackets are more arm friendly.
 

PaulC

Professional
98 is as far as I want to go...

It's actually a true 93, a pretty darn good powerful mid frame but discontinued.

"100" is only a RDIS series number... but I gather you may have problems getting used to the head shape.

I like it a lot for the groundies, but serving is another story.
 

Xfimpg

Professional
Personally i would go lower than 40. If i can do it, anyone can.

I had a prostaff hyper 5.0. It was a great stick, but the POG is way arm friendlier. I would not recommend the hyper over the POG on any level comfort or performance. Though maybe i had a different racket as wilson had a bunch of series. It was the hypercarbon 5.0 but this was say 4-6 years ago.

Also try the shockshield grip and do put some weight on the thing. Heavier rackets are more arm friendly.

If I were playing PSGD 63 with the POG mid, what would be the recommendation for a poly main string and tension, and tension for PSGD as a cross?
 

Xfimpg

Professional
It's actually a true 93, a pretty darn good powerful mid frame but discontinued.

"100" is only a RDIS series number... but I gather you may have problems getting used to the head shape.

I like it a lot for the groundies, but serving is another story.

Yes, that square head shape, can't wrap my head around it. :oops:
 

TW Staff

Administrator
I know that the Isometric head may have been an issue for you, but I've been playing with the Yonex RDS 001 MP for 5+ years now and it doesn't aggravate my TERRIBLE arthritic wrist. It is very spin friendly, comfortable despite its 68 stiffness rating and we have a used one (in great condition) for sale for what I consider a great price (even though it's been out of production for quite some time). EDIT: We also have a 30 day return policy on used racquets. Just don't break it and you can return it for a full refund, minus strings if you have it strung.

98 sq. in., 11.7oz
Swingweight: 322
Stiffness: 68
16 Mains / 19 Crosses

http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/descpage.html?PCODE=RD08MP

Just my 2 cents.

Aaron
TW Customer Service
 
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Overdrive

Legend
I know that the Isometric head may have been an issue for you, but I've been playing with the Yonex RDS 001 MP for 5+ years now and it doesn't aggravate my TERRIBLE arthritic wrist.

98 sq. in., 11.7oz

16 Mains / 19 Crosses

Aaron,

Why do more people prefer the 16 X 19 pattern than the 18 X 20?
 

MikeHitsHard93

Hall of Fame
I know that the Isometric head may have been an issue for you, but I've been playing with the Yonex RDS 001 MP for 5+ years now and it doesn't aggravate my TERRIBLE arthritic wrist. It is very spin friendly, comfortable despite its 68 stiffness rating and we have a used one (in great condition) for sale for what I consider a great price (even though it's been out of production for quite some time). EDIT: We also have a 30 day return policy on used racquets. Just don't break it and you can return it for a full refund, minus strings if you have it strung.

98 sq. in., 11.7oz
Swingweight: 322
Stiffness: 68
16 Mains / 19 Crosses

http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/descpage.html?PCODE=RD08MP

Just my 2 cents.

Aaron
TW Customer Service
I LOVE this company. Such great service and feedback!!!
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
If I were playing PSGD 63 with the POG mid, what would be the recommendation for a poly main string and tension, and tension for PSGD as a cross?

Sorry x. I am not a poly fan. Tried a couple and it had a plasticy ting that drove me crazy. Kevlar guy here and i would play that at 30lbs over a poly any day. Chicagojack hassled me about that and he had some good points that i will respond to if i can find the post.

I would have you try the psgd 18g at say 38 and see. No need to go hybrid imho. Sure i do it but mostly because i am a string breaker, like a stiff string bed, and a full bed of kevlar is crazy.

Said another way, i went from kevlar/gut at 63/65 and strung up a racket at 30lb full gamma syngut. I could play with it fine but prefered the kevlar because it was stiffer. Now at a higher tension i would have really dig the syngut, say at 36 or 38

If I let you hit with that racket no way you would have guessed it was at 30lbs. Sure i couldnt keep things on the court at 61/63 sometime compared to 63/65 and 30 is just so crazy. But it works and i think there is more spin at these extra low tensions. at least that is what everyone says in the thread and well i can keep the ball in.

It took a bit to adapt but i did it. Now i am not going back because the game is better.
 

TW Staff

Administrator
Aaron,

Why do more people prefer the 16 X 19 pattern than the 18 X 20?

If you're speaking in general, the 16x19 is a more forgiving pattern for the elbow because the stringbed flexes more upon impact. It also is a more spin friendly pattern (swingspeed held equal) than an 18x20 because the mains move out of place and snap back, creating more spin. This combination helps us mere mortals get a little more pop and spin.

I LOVE this company. Such great service and feedback!!!
You're making us blush. ;)

Aaron
 

PaulC

Professional
If I were playing PSGD 63 with the POG mid, what would be the recommendation for a poly main string and tension, and tension for PSGD as a cross?

Before we get into details...

The objectives here:
===============

1. Minimize the notorious main string movement on POG

2. Alleviate TE issue by softening the string bed

3. Provide enough control to minimize your overhits in low tensions.


Baseline tension = 63 lbs
==================

Estimated tension reduction needed to alleviate TE: 6 lbs (in three 2 lbs increments according to my own experience with most of my TE customers) ==> 57 +/-1 lb reduced baseline. (assuming same syn string)

-- but main strings would start moving, plus you may start over-hit a bit.

So the goal is to find a string combo that give the feel of a 56-58 lbs full-bed syn but with:

1. lesser string movement
2. more control
3. not harsh on elbow.

The obvious option is a *3rd gen co-poly* in the main.

(nat. gut main kind of hybrid won't achieve minimizing string movement without string savers in a POG mid 14X18 )


My recommendations based on my exp. on POG mid for your case:
================================================

Main: MSV Focus Hex Soft 17 or Prince Poly EXP 17

Cross: PSGO 17 (not PSGD, D is stiffer, since you've using PSGO for a while anyway), or Forten Sweet 16

Tension: 10-15% standard "poly-reduction" from reduced baseline.
(due to your TE and the stiff-up effects by the poly itself)

===> 58 * 0.85 = 49.3 lbs ==> let's round it up to 50lbs.

(but for Poly EXP 17, I personally would go with 52-53lbs)
 
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Shroud

G.O.A.T.
Hey x

Forgot that I prestretch on a constant pull machine so I think my numbers are tighter than some other setups
 

Xfimpg

Professional
I know that the Isometric head may have been an issue for you, but I've been playing with the Yonex RDS 001 MP for 5+ years now and it doesn't aggravate my TERRIBLE arthritic wrist. It is very spin friendly, comfortable despite its 68 stiffness rating and we have a used one (in great condition) for sale for what I consider a great price (even though it's been out of production for quite some time). EDIT: We also have a 30 day return policy on used racquets. Just don't break it and you can return it for a full refund, minus strings if you have it strung.

98 sq. in., 11.7oz
Swingweight: 322
Stiffness: 68
16 Mains / 19 Crosses

http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/descpage.html?PCODE=RD08MP

Just my 2 cents.

Aaron
TW Customer Service

Thanks Aaron. I would not favour buying and out of prod racquet because I tend to stock up on them. Maybe Yonex has a very similar current product to the Yonex RDS 001?
 

Xfimpg

Professional
Thanks everyone for all the great feedback. I will attempt to summarize the
options so far, as PaulC did it so well:

1. Minimize the notorious main string movement on POG
2. Alleviate TE issue by softening the string bed
3. Provide enough control to minimize your overhits in low tensions.
4. Change racquets if TE persists

As I have spent $$$ so far in this quest and the POG does fit my game perfectly, I find it only wise to go the route of "quick wins" first. So far I have retained:

- Plastidip the racquet to reduce vibrations or at least the frame shots
- Change from full bed syn gut at 63lbs to Co-poly mains at 50lbs and multi or PSGO crosses at 55lbs. Kevlar could also be an option at 30lbs as mains.
- Find a racquet with 95-98sq with a larger sweetspot than the POG and maneuverable for 1hbh = Prince Tour Diablo mid, Yonex model (TBD
Note: Wilson Hyper Pro Staff 5.0 (xnay on this, too stiff - I played with a Wilson Ultra 20 years ago and it was too stiff)
- Add: I also have a Head Prestige S that I lent to a friend. I didn't like the tinny sound and feel and found it wasn't HL enough, but it would be a cost-effective route to try to customize it.

I have 1 used POG and 3 new ones so it doesn't bother me to "sacrifice" one in the name of Plastidip. :)

Did I miss anything?
 

Xfimpg

Professional
I looked in my box of strings and I have Head Ultra Tour 17 co-poly and Gamma Poly-Z 16 that I could use a main for a test.

For the crosses, the softest that I have is Golden Set syn gut 16, which is slightly softer than PSGD.
 

Xfimpg

Professional
I think I got it wrong on the poly tension. If poly is to be strung at 10-15% less than syn gut AND I'm going for lower tension = less vibes increased sweetspot, then the poly would need to go down to about 40-45lbs.
 

Xfimpg

Professional
Just got back from 1 hour of hitting.

I started using my Head i.Extreme 102 with PSGD 61lbs for about 20 minutes. No elbow issues noted.

I then switched to my POG at 58/56lbs with PSGD and I could not believe the amount of vibration I was getting in my arm. It was worse when I switched to a semi-western grip and started spinning the ball. I played with it for about 5 minutes and switched back to the Head.

2 coats of Plastidip tonite and we'll see tomorrow.
 

Smasher08

Legend
Dead alu? I used it for only 4-6 hours... :(

Imo it dies in 2-4 hours. You're also stringing it ridiculously high and asking for arm/shoulder/elbow problems. Try dropping your poly tension ten pounds, and restringing every 5 hours or so.

Or switching from poly mains to 16g gut.
 

Ronaldo

Bionic Poster
Imo it dies in 2-4 hours. You're also stringing it ridiculously high and asking for arm/shoulder/elbow problems. Try dropping your poly tension ten pounds, and restringing every 5 hours or so.

Or switching from poly mains to 16g gut.

Gee wiz, you guys re-string every week or less?
 

Smasher08

Legend
Gee wiz, you guys re-string every week or less?

That's what people should probably do who use full-bed lux or lux mains. It just doesn't last that long, although it feels exquisite while it lasts. IIRC even MSV tells their poly customers to restring after 20 hours max.

That's just one of the reasons I use gut mains. 50+ hours and no arm issues from the poly crosses. :)
 

Xfimpg

Professional
That's what people should probably do who use full-bed lux or lux mains. It just doesn't last that long, although it feels exquisite while it lasts. IIRC even MSV tells their poly customers to restring after 20 hours max.

That's just one of the reasons I use gut mains. 50+ hours and no arm issues from the poly crosses. :)

Just about every player at my club is using poly and wear a tennis elbow strap.
Looks like the local stringer didnt warn them about polyester durability and its side effects.
 

Xfimpg

Professional
Actually, this is something that I ponder: Does hitting a forehand with a semi-western grip and heavy heavy heavy topspin add tension to the elbow and the supporting muscles?
 

Smasher08

Legend
Actually, this is something that I ponder: Does hitting a forehand with a semi-western grip and heavy heavy heavy topspin add tension to the elbow and the supporting muscles?

If you hit the ball off-center, possibly. And if the poly strings can't/don't absorb that impact shock, it's gotta travel somewhere.
 

Smasher08

Legend
Just about every player at my club is using poly and wear a tennis elbow strap.
Looks like the local stringer didnt warn them about polyester durability and its side effects.

I'd say it's not a coincidence. But the bigger culprit could very well be the tension.

And it's no coincidence that pros who use poly have tremendous racket head speed and restring almost daily.

Unfortunately too many rec players who use poly don't restring until it breaks . . . or they do. :(
 
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Xfimpg

Professional
If you hit the ball off-center, possibly. And if the poly strings can't/don't absorb that impact shock, it's gotta travel somewhere.

Is there an order of which string material absorbs vibrations the most?

1. Natural Gut
2. ?
3. ?
4. ?
5. ?
 
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