Stiffness and Gut Mains

[stealthfighter69]

By stringing a racquet with gut/poly (vs. full bed poly), how much more comfortable does the racquet become? % or estimated RA drop welcome. Curious how much more comfortable a Pure Aero Plus would be with gut mains.

(I know that the RA doesn't drop by stringing it specifically with gut. I know it drops a few points by stringing but that's not the point.)

 

[dgoran]

It definitely makes it more comfortable but does not make a racquet flexible.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Depends on tensions, gauges and type of poly.

The mains provide approximately 80% of the feel for the string bed. So it will be considerably less stiff than full bed poly at mid tensions. But Gut/4G 16g at mid tensions would be nearly as stiff as full bed Cream 17g at 45 lbs.

I don't think it's possible to equate to RA drop because even RA is an imperfect measure.

What you are trying to achieve for arm comfort is energy absorption into the string bed and frame rather than your arm. Not all frames energy absorption are correlated well with their RA.

Similarly strings energy absorption isn't as correlated with stiffness index but rather resilience is more important. For instance Kevlar is very stiff but the fibres give so that they are more energy absorptive than a similarly stiff poly that has no give. That's why Kevlar is great for body armour and plastic isn't.

All I can say is that is if the frame is uncomfortable, soften it up as much as possible and then add stiffness gradually. So I'd first see how the frame felt with a soft multi. If it's still uncomfortable, not the frame for your arm. If its comfy, then add in a soft poly cross. If it's still comfy, then switch to gut/poly. Still comfy? Try bumping up the poly stiffness in the cross.

 

[jdub486]

IMO One of the keys for comfort with the gut poly hybrid is to drop the tension on crosses 2-4 lbs. The poly has a bigger impact than you would think even as a cross.

 

[AMGF]

Sorry to break the news, Babolat are stiff and will kill your arm, extended Babolat are even worst. Gut will help a bit, but stiff extended frames is no bueno for the elbow.

 

[MixedMaster]

Sorry to break the news, Babolat are stiff and will kill your arm, extended Babolat are even worst. Gut will help a bit, but stiff extended frames is no bueno for the elbow.

Babolat are stiff, I agree, but stringing hybrid with gut mains and poly cross helped me some, but what really helped was when I added some lead tape to the frame head and some in the handle to equal it out. I used the original PS 100 from the time they came out and the gut/poly with the lead tape was the only saving grace for me.

 

[AMGF]

Babolat are stiff, I agree, but stringing hybrid with gut mains and poly cross helped me some, but what really helped was when I added some lead tape to the frame head and some in the handle to equal it out. I used the original PS 100 from the time they came out and the gut/poly with the lead tape was the only saving grace for me.

Gut helps. Improving recoil weight helps as well. However the stiffness is there and the vibration frequency is there too but it can get more comfortable and it’s worth a try. If it doesn’t get comfortable enough the op should consider a switch. No frame is worth hurting your body in my opinion.

I did try a pure aero+ last week with rpm blast and didn’t think the stiffness was too bad. But it had tons of lead so recoil was high. If OP can handle the extra weight and sw it’s worth trying. But it’s not magical.

I’ve seen so many people with tennis elbow and Babolat it’s crazy. The worst is trying to make them to change brands. They hurt but won’t even consider anything else. Brand loyalty is huge with Babs.

 

[Dartagnan64]

The worst is trying to make them to change brands.

I've had some good success with a few people recently. The Wilson Clash and Head Extremes were game changers in that regard. They felt they got their Babolat POWER in a more comfy model. But yeah, it is hard to convince the Babolat arm brace crowd that maybe their set up is an issue.

Personally I left Babolat for Prince and haven't looked back. Love the comfort in those frames and they perform well for me. IN the end it really is more about your skill and technique than it is about the frame, so why risk wrecking your arm? I'm glad Prince, Wilson and Head have started making a lot of nice frames with comfort in mind.

 

[MixedMaster]

I've had some good success with a few people recently. The Wilson Clash and Head Extremes were game changers in that regard. They felt they got their Babolat POWER in a more comfy model. But yeah, it is hard to convince the Babolat arm brace crowd that maybe their set up is an issue.

Personally I left Babolat for Prince and haven't looked back. Love the comfort in those frames and they perform well for me. IN the end it really is more about your skill and technique than it is about the frame, so why risk wrecking your arm? I'm glad Prince, Wilson and Head have started making a lot of nice frames with comfort in mind.

I have to agree with you on that! It took me a while to finally switch frames from my Babs. A friend of mine had some Yonex V cores and I tried them and fell in love with the power, control, and comfort. People get stuck in a mind frame, and I'm guilty of that, and either don't want to spend the money to switch or take the time to try different frames. Some people love and feel great with a frame that kills someone else's arm. Take time when buying as there are many great rackets you just have to find the one that's right for you.

 

[stealthfighter69]

Gut helps. Improving recoil weight helps as well. However the stiffness is there and the vibration frequency is there too but it can get more comfortable and it’s worth a try. If it doesn’t get comfortable enough the op should consider a switch. No frame is worth hurting your body in my opinion.

I did try a pure aero+ last week with rpm blast and didn’t think the stiffness was too bad. But it had tons of lead so recoil was high. If OP can handle the extra weight and sw it’s worth trying. But it’s not magical.

I’ve seen so many people with tennis elbow and Babolat it’s crazy. The worst is trying to make them to change brands. They hurt but won’t even consider anything else. Brand loyalty is huge with Babs.

I've used the Phantom 100 since May 2017 and realized I needed easier access to power, especially on serve. I swung a friend's AeroPro Drive + and thought it swung easily. The balance is 32 cm unstrung for a 700 mm racquet which is pretty similar to the 31 cm of the 686 mm Phantom.

I've hit with AeroPros and PDs a bunch of times as one-offs just to see what the hype was about but never could get it; I thought they swung awkwardly and didn't get that free power that everyone raved about. No history of arm issues.

Today I hit with the PA+ in 1 degree weather. Definitely a noticeable power upgrade and the transition to the longer racquet was pretty seamless. You also notice the stiffness even with gut mains but it was never jarring or anything; maybe anything just feels much stiffer than the Phantom 100. After 1.5 hours, no arm sensation but I will monitor it and will see after a few weeks before committing.

I've had some good success with a few people recently. The Wilson Clash and Head Extremes were game changers in that regard. They felt they got their Babolat POWER in a more comfy model. But yeah, it is hard to convince the Babolat arm brace crowd that maybe their set up is an issue.

Personally I left Babolat for Prince and haven't looked back. Love the comfort in those frames and they perform well for me. IN the end it really is more about your skill and technique than it is about the frame, so why risk wrecking your arm? I'm glad Prince, Wilson and Head have started making a lot of nice frames with comfort in mind.

When you're competing at a high enough level, sometimes technique isn't enough and you need help overcoming some physical limitations such as height. That help comes in the form of gear that may give you more power, especially in scenarios where it's harder to generate the necessary power.

 

[Dartagnan64]

When you're competing at a high enough level, sometimes technique isn't enough and you need help overcoming some physical limitations such as height. That help comes in the form of gear that may give you more power, especially in scenarios where it's harder to generate the necessary power.

The only high enough level of competition to risk your arm is when you are making money off of the competition. Otherwise, arm health comes first as anyone that has suffered through injuries will confirm that.

I played with Babolat in my 40s and never felt a thing from them. Then in my 50's they started to cause problems. Tendons change with age and you never know when that combination of poly and stiffness will get you. I won't risk it again.

Right now I'm getting power from player's OS frames. Comfortable and powerful. Howard Head created the POG in his retirement for a reason.

 

[AMGF]

I've had some good success with a few people recently. The Wilson Clash and Head Extremes were game changers in that regard. They felt they got their Babolat POWER in a more comfy model. But yeah, it is hard to convince the Babolat arm brace crowd that maybe their set up is an issue.

Personally I left Babolat for Prince and haven't looked back. Love the comfort in those frames and they perform well for me. IN the end it really is more about your skill and technique than it is about the frame, so why risk wrecking your arm? I'm glad Prince, Wilson and Head have started making a lot of nice frames with comfort in mind.

Good idea about the Clash, I've had a student change to it with good results. I'm going to suggest this to my stubborn 4.0 lady that's been playing with an arm brace for as long as I can remember but won't let go of her Pure Drive out of cold dead hands.

Personnally I've been playing Yonex for the last 4 years and just switched to the new '20 Ezone98+, super comfy and massive power. It's like cheating.

 

[stealthfighter69]

The only high enough level of competition to risk your arm is when you are making money off of the competition. Otherwise, arm health comes first as anyone that has suffered through injuries will confirm that.

And what level do you play at?
Given your posting frequency, I don't doubt your knowledge of racquets but please don't talk about competition and what it means to play competitive sports of any kind since you definitely don't get it.

 

[AMGF]

I've used the Phantom 100 since May 2017 and realized I needed easier access to power, especially on serve. I swung a friend's AeroPro Drive + and thought it swung easily. The balance is 32 cm unstrung for a 700 mm racquet which is pretty similar to the 31 cm of the 686 mm Phantom.

I've hit with AeroPros and PDs a bunch of times as one-offs just to see what the hype was about but never could get it; I thought they swung awkwardly and didn't get that free power that everyone raved about. No history of arm issues.

Today I hit with the PA+ in 1 degree weather. Definitely a noticeable power upgrade and the transition to the longer racquet was pretty seamless. You also notice the stiffness even with gut mains but it was never jarring or anything; maybe anything just feels much stiffer than the Phantom 100. After 1.5 hours, no arm sensation but I will monitor it and will see after a few weeks before committing.



When you're competing at a high enough level, sometimes technique isn't enough and you need help overcoming some physical limitations such as height. That help comes in the form of gear that may give you more power, especially in scenarios where it's harder to generate the necessary power.

Thanks for the update, it wasn't clear from the first post if you had elbow problems or not. I think the most powerful serving frame is the Yonex SV100+, but it is stiff. One awesome serving frame that won't break your arm is the ProKennex ki Q+ 5X pro. It's a stiff frame but the kinetic beads mean the frame is super comfortable. It's one of the rare racquet technology that actually really works. If ProKennex was a better known brand, this frame would be on many courts.

In my opinion, there is no level worth risking your health unless you're playing Future/Challenger tournaments and desperately need to make it to ATP level to make ends meet. Plus there are more powerful frames than the Aero+ that won't be as hard on the joints, some Yonex and ProKennex are examples of that.

 

[Dartagnan64]

And what level do you play at?
Given your posting frequency, I don't doubt your knowledge of racquets but please don't talk about competition and what it means to play competitive sports of any kind since you definitely don't get it.

We will have to agree to disagree. It has little to do with level. My question is what age are you? I think you gain perspective on all the stupid things you did in rec sports as you get older and the injuries add up. Just trying to pass this wisdom on.

I've met more than my share of "competitive" players that can't get on the court due to shredded arms and knees. At a certain age you learn that taking care of your body is the most important thing.

In my opinion, there is no level worth risking your health unless you're playing Future/Challenger tournaments and desperately need to make it to ATP level to make ends meet. Plus there are more powerful frames than the Aero+ that won't be as hard on the joints, some Yonex and ProKennex are examples of that.

I agree. But live and learn as they say.

 

[stealthfighter69]

Thanks for the update, it wasn't clear from the first post if you had elbow problems or not. I think the most powerful serving frame is the Yonex SV100+, but it is stiff. One awesome serving frame that won't break your arm is the ProKennex ki Q+ 5X pro. It's a stiff frame but the kinetic beads mean the frame is super comfortable. It's one of the rare racquet technology that actually really works. If ProKennex was a better known brand, this frame would be on many courts.

In my opinion, there is no level worth risking your health unless you're playing Future/Challenger tournaments and desperately need to make it to ATP level to make ends meet. Plus there are more powerful frames than the Aero+ that won't be as hard on the joints, some Yonex and ProKennex are examples of that.

I was given two SV95s when they came out, strung it with full PTP and my wrist was sore after the handful of times I played hence only a handful of times. If that affected me with the small sweet spot, then surely the stiffer SV100 will. Maybe I would've been fine with gut mains.

My Phantoms were 329 SW (measured on an RDC) when I purchased them and that PK is 339 on TW which is too much of a difference. My PA+ is 330 (measured on an RDC) which isn't really different from my Phantoms plus I've shadow swung it a handful of times which, though not ideal, gives me a better idea of how the racquet swings. Another racquet I'm considering is the Vcore 98 but extended length really intrigues me.

 

[AMGF]

I was given two SV95s when they came out, strung it with full PTP and my wrist was sore after the handful of times I played hence only a handful of times. If that affected me with the small sweet spot, then surely the stiffer SV100 will. Maybe I would've been fine with gut mains.

My Phantoms were 329 SW (measured on an RDC) when I purchased them and that PK is 339 on TW which is too much of a difference. My PA+ is 330 (measured on an RDC) which isn't really different from my Phantoms plus I've shadow swung it a handful of times which, though not ideal, gives me a better idea of how the racquet swings. Another racquet I'm considering is the Vcore 98 but extended length really intrigues me.

Extended VC98+ were my previous frames. Played them for two years. Great serving frames (though I have better speed with my EZ98+) but they’re 340sw stock as well.

My PK is at 335SW with 18l strings. It probably was a bit under spec to begin with. But if a frame has specs you like but the SW is a bit high, remember TW tests with 16g strings (iirc) so going with thinner strings will lower the SW, the thinner the gauge the more dramatic the effect.

The SV line felt stiff to me too and never played with them. Just that the SV100+ is regarded as possibly the best serving stick from almost everyone that tested it.

 

[pfrischmann]

By stringing a racquet with gut/poly (vs. full bed poly), how much more comfortable does the racquet become? % or estimated RA drop welcome. Curious how much more comfortable a Pure Aero Plus would be with gut mains.

(I know that the RA doesn't drop by stringing it specifically with gut. I know it drops a few points by stringing but that's not the point.)

As I'm getting older, poly is starting to affect my arm. I have to string poly at 50 or lower 46-48 is best for me. Gut at 55 poly at 50 works pretty well unless you are used to poly at 55+ then you have a slingshot. It takes quite a while to get used to the lower tension but it can be done.

 

[stealthfighter69]

As I'm getting older, poly is starting to affect my arm. I have to string poly at 50 or lower 46-48 is best for me. Gut at 55 poly at 50 works pretty well unless you are used to poly at 55+ then you have a slingshot. It takes quite a while to get used to the lower tension but it can be done.

I've been stringing gut mains since 2018 because I don't have to work as hard to get the depth I want. I'd string full poly every so often to confirm that I don't like it anymore and I'm reaffirmed in my string choice every time. In a much stiffer racquet like the PA+, I'm not going to experiment with full poly plus I'm after the power.

 

[pfrischmann]

I've been stringing gut mains since 2018 because I don't have to work as hard to get the depth I want. I'd string full poly every so often to confirm that I don't like it anymore and I'm reaffirmed in my string choice every time. In a much stiffer racquet like the PA+, I'm not going to experiment with full poly plus I'm after the power.

Well nothing is more comfortable than full gut...nothing. You lose a lot of spin compared to a hybrid or full poly. If that's not part of your game.. I prefer gut in mains over the crosses. I can get more control with poly in the mains and more power and feel with gut in the mains. FWIW

 

[stealthfighter69]

Well nothing is more comfortable than full gut...nothing. You lose a lot of spin compared to a hybrid or full poly. If that's not part of your game.. I prefer gut in mains over the crosses. I can get more control with poly in the mains and more power and feel with gut in the mains. FWIW

I'm breaking gut mains in my Phantom in 8-10 hours. My guess is the strings will break much quicker in a PA so not keen to try full gut.

 

[AmericanTwist]

I love playing with natural gut but it's very expensive. In the Spring I'm going to try pairing a good syn gut on the mains with natural gut on the crosses. I'll probably string a tad looser to compensate for putting the syn gut in the mains. Also, the smaller the head the more the performance of natural gut shines relative to a larger headed racquet.