Stop with the Serena is greatest nonsense

DRII

G.O.A.T.
Evert indeed does, as do Shriver, Austin, Drysdale, both McEnroes, much of the BBC team during their Wimbledon coverage, many of Serena's peers on the current tour, much of the staff of Tennis Magazine. Graf and Navratilova have even said Serena has the most raw ability of any tennis player ever.

riiight, it not like tennis commentators have a vested interest in hyping up the best player on the women's' tour or anything like that... :rolleyes: :confused:

plus each said the same about Venus in the early 2000's, Pancho Gonzalez as well...
 

Talker

Hall of Fame
Graff had it tough back then.
Those other players near the top back then didn't just show up once in awhile like they do now.
They showed up in almost every tournament.
Evert, Martina and Seles weren't just there in matches, they were always ready to play and had a very strong mental game on top of it.

Today the woman players seem to hit a peak for a short period and then at other tournaments don't look ready to play their best.

What happened to the tournament hard players who gave the best they had for years?
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
Graf & Serena

Graf has more Grand Slam titles than Serena, more French Open, more Wimbledon, more US Open, more Masters, more weeks at n° 1, more year-ends at n° 1, more consecutive Grand Slam finals, a Golden Slam, defending all the Grand Slam at leats 2 times, made the final of all the Grand Slam at leats 5 times each (Serena has one fluke French Open & her sister no less :)), more consecutive weeks in the top 2(from march '87 to june '97) more little Slam with 4, won all the Grand Slam on every surface at least 6 times each, better % W-L, more titles, better peak (88-89 is the greatest 2 seasons back-to-back with 7 slams + 1 final)

Serena has more Australian Open and a better Olympics resumé.

It is not even close. :?

The only reasons Serena has won so many slams since 2008 is because she didn't do much in in middle of the noughties, and also because the field is so weak. Players such as Ivanovic, Jankovic, Safina and Wozniacki became n° 1. Do you think Evert, Navratilova or Graf would have let Manuela Maleeva or Mary Joe Fernandez becoming n° 1 in their prime?

And Serena has so many bad lost in her "prime" years :

2002: Shaughnessy, Schnyder, Rubin
2004: Petrova, Jidkova
2005: Jankovic (#28 ), Farina Elia, Schiavone, Craybas, Sun
2006: Hantuchova, Zvonareva (#50)
2007: Bammer, Chan, Schnyder (2 times), Chakvetadze
2008: Safina (#17), Srebotnik, Wozniak, Li (#30)
2009: Zakopalola, Schnyder, Schiavone (#45), Bammer, Petrova
2010: Petrova
2012: Makarova, Razzano

Steffi's prime was around '86 to '96. Only Bradtke in '93 and Coetzer in '95 were really bad. And Steffi is 5-0 & Jennifer Capriati in Grand Slam tournaments, Serena is 3-4. :?... while Capriati had better % W-L in the early 90's than in the early 00's.

To say that Serena is the best is just :rolleyes:

Good post Steffi-forever.

The Tennis Channel has Serena ranked #6.

1 Steffi Graf*
2 Martina Navratilova*
3 Margaret Court*
4 Chris Evert*
5 Billy Jean King*
6 Serena Williams*

I'm pretty sure most unbiased experts/historians have Graf & Martina as #1 and #2.
 

roman40

Rookie
While other women tennis players worry about looking good, Serena is pumping iron in the gym, and she's clearly more gifted genetically, I mean look at her, she's physically way above the rest. You combine that with her tennis skills and there is no match for her right now. The only time she loses is when she has a mental meltdown. There only reason we don't see more top black women or men players is because it's so damn expensive to become and stay a tennis pro, so there are too few candidates in the first place.
 
While other women tennis players worry about looking good, Serena is pumping iron in the gym, and she's clearly more gifted genetically, I mean look at her, she's physically way above the rest. You combine that with her tennis skills and there is no match for her right now. The only time she loses is when she has a mental meltdown. There only reason we don't see more top black women or men players is because it's so damn expensive to become and stay a tennis pro, so there are too few candidates in the first place.

Yawn, Serena's obviously a gifted athlete, but so are many other female tennis players, a lot of them particularly from or around Serena's generation.

Her athletic gifts are definitely a part of her success, just as they are with Graf/Venus/Henin/Clijsters or even the likes of Dementieva/Kuznetsova/Mauresmo, but IMO they're not the sole or even primary reason.

You're right though that right now female tennis is quite lacking in gifted athletes, which is sad because the previous generation was just bursting full of them. I don't know what's going on, maybe just a slump? Or maybe other female sports are becoming popular and driving some away?

Anyways regarding the thread, I definitely think Serena is the greatest in terms of peak level of play (on grass and hard). The serve is really what elevates her to that status in my opinion, it's just on a whole different level from any other female.
 
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McEnborg

Semi-Pro
Why you pickle smooching troll, who the hell are you to tell anyone anything?!!

Serena's better than the Teutonic Toucan, Steffi the Schnozzola, better than Martina and better than Chrissy "bed-on-her-back" Evert. She'd kick their asses and then smaaaack the living crap outta you for good measure. :cool:


Are you always this classless? Where's your argument or do you just like making an idiot out of yourself?
 

OrangePower

Legend
Every few weeks a similar thread pops up and people get worked up all over again. But it's pretty simple, and depends on how you define "greatest":

In the context of GOAT, it's about accomplishments, and in that sense, no, Serena is not the greatest.

But in the context of most capable player and most dominant over her peers (when she is motivated), Serena takes top spot.

Simply speaking, IMO the gap between her at her best, and the rest of her peers at their best, is larger than it was for any previous great.
 
Every few weeks a similar thread pops up and people get worked up all over again. But it's pretty simple, and depends on how you define "greatest":

In the context of GOAT, it's about accomplishments, and in that sense, no, Serena is not the greatest.

But in the context of most capable player and most dominant over her peers (when she is motivated), Serena takes top spot.

Simply speaking, IMO the gap between her at her best, and the rest of her peers at their best, is larger than it was for any previous great.

I disagree, the gap between Graf and the rest of her peers outside of Seles was pretty huge (and this extended to ALL surfaces), which is why people talk about her competing in such a weak era and having no competition.

Serena's gap from 2008-now comes close if not matching it though.
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
I disagree, the gap between Graf and the rest of her peers outside of Seles was pretty huge (and this extended to ALL surfaces), which is why people talk about her competing in such a weak era and having no competition.

Serena's gap from 2008-now comes close if not matching it though.

Graf had very weak competition compared to Serena, and even then the gap wasnt as big. Gabriela Sabatini, a player who made 18 slam semis but managed a mere 1 slam title and 3 slam finals out of all that, beat her 11 times (in 40 matches, but still over a quarter) and took Graf to 3 sets (or did better than that, aka straight sets win) in about 70% of their matches. Little Sanchez Vicario had a similar record. Except for Henin, Hingis, Venus, and Capriati, Serena is far more dominant over all her rivals than that and over much better players than Sanchez or Sabatini like Clijsters, Davenport, Sharapova, Azarenka, Mauresmo, and others.
 

jrs

Professional
I would say the previous generation of Tennis Ladies - Tennis was their main focus.

This generation - most of these women seem to show up for some tournaments but is quite focused on other ventures outside Tennis.

This would explain the inconsistent performance on the court.
 

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
Many experts whose opinions carry 1000x more weight than yours are starting to talk about Serena as the possible GOAT.

Who is saying that seriously? Guys like McEnroe say it just to hype up the current era. A number of people have said that Serena has the "highest, most unbeatable level of play" for a woman which may be true. But that is not the same thing as being GOAT. All serious analysts know that Graf, Navratilova and Evert are greater than her.

Only a few like yourself would be the idea Sharapova is the biggest threat to an in form Serena, no that would only be an extreme few on the whole planet like yourself, nobody else.

I do think Sharapova is a threat to Serena, she was a set and a break up the other week. She is getting ever closer to beating Serena again and it will happen soon one of these days.
 

Soianka

Hall of Fame
Who is saying that seriously? Guys like McEnroe say it just to hype up the current era. A number of people have said that Serena has the "highest, most unbeatable level of play" for a woman which may be true. But that is not the same thing as being GOAT. All serious analysts know that Graf, Navratilova and Evert are greater than her.



I do think Sharapova is a threat to Serena, she was a set and a break up the other week. She is getting ever closer to beating Serena again and it will happen soon one of these days.

Maybe in another 9 years? LOL

Seriously though, you could look at it that way or you could say that Maria played the best she has in a long while and she still couldn't manage to win.

And on top of that she lost the 3rd set 6-0.

That's pretty bad for the #2 player in the world.

I'm not so sure a win against Serena will ever happen again.
 

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
Every few weeks a similar thread pops up and people get worked up all over again. But it's pretty simple, and depends on how you define "greatest":

In the context of GOAT, it's about accomplishments, and in that sense, no, Serena is not the greatest.

But in the context of most capable player and most dominant over her peers (when she is motivated), Serena takes top spot.

Simply speaking, IMO the gap between her at her best, and the rest of her peers at their best, is larger than it was for any previous great.

This is a reasonable position.

The problem is when people like NadalAgassi (a clear Serena fanboy) try to make out she is the GOAT even using accomplishments, by listing all previous greats and finding some way to diminish their achievements. Actually I think he somehow justifies Serena on a par with Graf in terms of accomplishments, which is obviously silly.
 

nat75

Rookie
Graf had very weak competition compared to Serena, and even then the gap wasnt as big. Gabriela Sabatini, a player who made 18 slam semis but managed a mere 1 slam title and 3 slam finals out of all that, beat her 11 times (in 40 matches, but still over a quarter) and took Graf to 3 sets (or did better than that, aka straight sets win) in about 70% of their matches. Little Sanchez Vicario had a similar record. Except for Henin, Hingis, Venus, and Capriati, Serena is far more dominant over all her rivals than that and over much better players than Sanchez or Sabatini like Clijsters, Davenport, Sharapova, Azarenka, Mauresmo, and others.

The reason why Sabatini won 1slam was that she had to face up to three tennis greats to get into a final while she would have to face just one if she played nowadays. And why reaching 18 slams semifinals is considered a weakness instead of a testament of remarkable consistency?
 

Relinquis

Hall of Fame
serena hasn't retired yet... she'll get there...

who is going to stop her?

- sharapova? lol ...
- stephens? hehe ...
- azarenka? rarely ...

Her real rivals are her health and her age. That's who she's competing against now.
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
The reason why Sabatini won 1slam was that she had to face up to three tennis greats to get into a final while she would have to face just one if she played nowadays. And why reaching 18 slams semifinals is considered a weakness instead of a testament of remarkable consistency?

It's a catch-22. If she's far ahead of the field, the competition was weak. If she wasn't that dominant, she wasn't that good.
 

TERRASTAR18

Hall of Fame
The reason why Sabatini won 1slam was that she had to face up to three tennis greats to get into a final while she would have to face just one if she played nowadays. And why reaching 18 slams semifinals is considered a weakness instead of a testament of remarkable consistency?

there are alot of good to great players this era- sharapova, vika, radwanska, up and down kuzzy, up and down kvitova, sometimes venus. so it wouldn't be a catwalk either.
 

TERRASTAR18

Hall of Fame
It's a catch-22. If she's far ahead of the field, the competition was weak. If she wasn't that dominant, she wasn't that good.

it's not that hard. if she played in an era with 5 or 6 great players in the prime like the 00's then she would get respect.
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
The reason why Sabatini won 1slam was that she had to face up to three tennis greats to get into a final while she would have to face just one if she played nowadays. And why reaching 18 slams semifinals is considered a weakness instead of a testament of remarkable consistency?

Nick Bolliteiri referred to Sabatini in an early 2000s Tennis Magazine newsletter saying that someone playing a finesse game like Sabatini then wouldnt even be in the top 40 as that didnt cut it in the modern game. Draw your own conclusions.

I guarantee you one thing, Serena would have nowhere near the problems with Sabatini that Graf did.
 

Tanya

Hall of Fame
Nick Bolliteiri referred to Sabatini in an early 2000s Tennis Magazine newsletter saying that someone playing a finesse game like Sabatini then wouldnt even be in the top 40 as that didnt cut it in the modern game. Draw your own conclusions.

I guarantee you one thing, Serena would have nowhere near the problems with Sabatini that Graf did.

To be fair, Bolletieri is the shepherd of many brainless ballbashers of today...Just look at the type of players his academy produces: Sharapova, Vaidisova, etc. It's no wonder old saint Nick is dissing the finesse game--to promote the newer power game that has largely taken over women's tennis.

Justine Henin had a "finesse" game that won her 7 grand slams in one of the strongest eras ever, although to be fair she wouldn't have had near that much success if she, too, didn't have the power component of the game.

So Bolletieri is both right and wrong. Finesse can still thrive in today's game, you just need to be able to hit with some authority to back it up. Floaters and slices are going to get completely pummeled these days...
 

Vanhool

Hall of Fame
there are alot of good to great players this era- sharapova, vika, radwanska, up and down kuzzy, up and down kvitova, sometimes venus. so it wouldn't be a catwalk either.

Cakewalk not catwalk :) you mistyped. Not correcting to be a jerk (maybe I am anyway), but for people who don't speak English fluently.
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
To be fair, Bolletieri is the shepherd of many brainless ballbashers of today...Just look at the type of players his academy produces: Sharapova, Vaidisova, etc. It's no wonder old saint Nick is dissing the finesse game--to promote the newer power game that has largely taken over women's tennis.

Justine Henin had a "finesse" game that won her 7 grand slams in one of the strongest eras ever, although to be fair she wouldn't have had near that much success if she, too, didn't have the power component of the game.

So Bolletieri is both right and wrong. Finesse can still thrive in today's game, you just need to be able to hit with some authority to back it up. Floaters and slices are going to get completely pummeled these days...

Fair points but do you think Sabatini's game for instance would have been effective the last 10 years? I dont think it would have. Not only did she lack the power, but her serve was too weak and easily broken, and she also wasnt quite enough, a good enough defender, or mentally tough enough. Her overly topsin shots often dropped shorter and were perfect height to be clobbered. While she had alot of variety her shot selection and strategy was also often poor. Someone like Sanchez Vicario I would even give a better chance to be successful today as she was one of the best defensive players in history, and would fight, scrap, bring out anything in her arsenal, and try and do anything to win. Like Wozniacki and Radwanska she could also play all day without missing a ball, but she had far more game than Wozniacki does.
 

Talker

Hall of Fame
Serena needs quite a few more wins on tour, not near enough weeks at #1.

She's in the top ten and has time but for now she is still has to take a back seat to Graff, Martina, Evert.
 
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