ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
They all end up straight by impact.
On closed/neutral stance:
Fed - bent then straight by around front leg
Wawrinka - bent then straight around back leg
Thiem - straight back on backswing
I prefer Fed, and also prefer bent right arm on 2hbh backswing/unit turn. To me, it makes the unit turn more relaxed.
You see similar variations of right arm in 2hbhs. Djokovic right arm straight at unit turn, Zverev and Cilic bent, then straightens right arm in the drop.
Pick the 1hbh you time the best ... right arm straightening into contact, or straight all the way. You can't really make the case one is better than the other given Fed, Wawrinka and Thiem. Maybe you could make the case straight early is the best lever for max power, but I would go with the one you hit in.
On closed/neutral stance:
Fed - bent then straight by around front leg
Wawrinka - bent then straight around back leg
Thiem - straight back on backswing
I prefer Fed, and also prefer bent right arm on 2hbh backswing/unit turn. To me, it makes the unit turn more relaxed.
You see similar variations of right arm in 2hbhs. Djokovic right arm straight at unit turn, Zverev and Cilic bent, then straightens right arm in the drop.
Pick the 1hbh you time the best ... right arm straightening into contact, or straight all the way. You can't really make the case one is better than the other given Fed, Wawrinka and Thiem. Maybe you could make the case straight early is the best lever for max power, but I would go with the one you hit in.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
If you are talking about spacing and swinging forward close to shoulder plane ... I have a thread for you.
But arm positions on unit turn ... nah ... just foreplay.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
I mean both. Close to torso both on back swing and forward swing.If you are talking about spacing and swinging forward close to shoulder plane ... I have a thread for you.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Oh ... you meant "close", I assumed you meant out away from body. By contact in video above arm, arm/hand extended away from body for power from spacing. ???
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Love me some Edberg ... but if it's an "important thing" ... it will also be in Fed's bh.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
It surprised me that when the chest is pressing the upper arm tightly that the straight arm goes out from the chest at quite an angle. That includes moving the scapula forward to get more contact. Roughly arm touches chest to about 4" out from shoulder joint (in armpit), the contact between the chest and upper arm ends?
To determine speed of a racket head produced by rotation, first determine the rotation axis and then determine how far the object is from the rotation axis. What is the rotation axis for the one hand backhand? Does it always have more than one rotation axis during the stroke of the top one hand backhands?
To determine speed of a racket head produced by rotation, first determine the rotation axis and then determine how far the object is from the rotation axis. What is the rotation axis for the one hand backhand? Does it always have more than one rotation axis during the stroke of the top one hand backhands?
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ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Whaaaaat?
Mountain Ghost
Professional
The problem with having this bend as you are learning and perfecting a 1HBH ... is that it's too easy to naturally lead with the elbow ... which you do NOT want to do. Pros who start with a slight bend at the start of the forward motion do not lead with the elbow much ... and instead rotate the arm out (supinate) as a relatively rigid unit. I start ALL 1HBH students with a straight arm ... to focus on this rotation of the arm unit ... so there is no chance of leading with the elbow. As they progress they can perhaps have a slight bend at the start ... but not under MY watch. The BIG problem with leading with the elbow is that the racquet head has quite a long distance to go ... compared to the handle ... and it won't be able to "catch up" ... or rise (low to high) .. until much later in the stroke path ... which will be too far out front on most balls ... ... ... One Note ... this rotating out of the arm unit requires positioning farther away from the line of the incoming ball ... while leading with the elbow ... which moves the contact point farther out front ... entices you to "crowd" the ball ~ MG
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
on the take back (other than grip change - but even that is heavily left hand assisted), i feel like the left hand is doing all the work of pulling the racquet back (not really, but it is "holding tension" against the right arm (like a horse in a starting gate)) - work is really being done by the unit turn
not til i'm ready to swing forward does my right do anything (racquet drop, guide head to contact)... to me the right arm is not even powering the stroke (powered by the uncoil... the right arm is just trying to sync/harness the momentum and get the head to contact)
bbp - what is your right arm doing on the take back?
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
In the one hand backhand of Wawrinka, Justine Henin and Gasquet the chest presses on the upper arm for the initial acceleration for most heavy pace backhands. This pressing lasts and short time and if the elbow bends an important part of the acceleration from the uppermost body turning is lost. View point is from observations of high speed videos.
See post #1 and post #51 to end.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...and-waht-force-to-start-forward-swing.462997/
See post #1 and post #51 to end.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...and-waht-force-to-start-forward-swing.462997/
leojramirez
Rookie
This is too overrated imh, as long as you get good extension on the shoulder or as @Chas puts it above pressing the upper arm on chest. If you really want to rip it thats when you take it back a bit more.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Good ... a question ... a break from converting 83 year old mom's cassettes to CDs. I think that is like moving her from 4 generations back to 3 generations back.
And before anyone asks ... she knows how to put her CD in and play a CD ... and that does not require 24x7 son support ... so NO mp3 player or "talk to the wifi streaming device" in her future. "bbp - what is your right arm doing on the take back?"
Note: I actually did not get that @Curious was just referring to the "take back" ... therefore my "WHAAAAT" to how do you hit a 1hbh without the right arm.
Short answer: ... longer version follows ... you knew the longer was coming:
On both my 1hbh and 2hbh, my left arm is merely offering light support (weight of racquet and racquet orientation). My right hand is in charge of racquet position on take back and most weight support ... I could hit a decent 1hbh without the left hand on the racquet (but I wouldn't want to). On both the 1hbh and 2hbh, I unit turn with both hands on the racquet ... very little tension in arms or hands ... just enough to maintain arms triangle and racquet position (i.e. just keep arms and racquet from flopping down).
Longer answer:
Rightly are wrongly ... after thinking about tennis "technically" since I joined here in 2016 (seriously never thought about this until 2016 and age 57-58), this is where my thinking has settled on ground strokes in general:
0) important stuff starts at the slot with a good unit turn ... you do not need arm effort for good unit turn
1) the swing starts from the slot ... arm stiffens enough to become a lever flipped by the initial shoulder turn forward (in nipples to the net strokes ... no flip from shoulder turn ... just muscle lever)
2) we add arm effort in forward swing after the initial start from slot, and before contact ... it was the 1-2 timing thing I commented on (this is what makes a smooth stroke IMO ... just check out Edberg 1hbh 1-2 timing ... smooth as silk)
I hit continental right hand on both 2hbh and my 1hbh (if I experiment some with my 1hbh this spring ... and I think I am going to, I am going to hit more bh eastern 1hbh ... I can already, just not my habit). So as far as using my left hand for grip changes, probably .... bh <-> fh ... but don't think about it. That part works ... so leaves me all my time to think about "that 2hbh that just did WHAAAT".
SO... my left arm/hand are doing very little other than assist on any of my strokes except 2hbh ... that one is hard to pull off without the left arm/hand.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
I would say the spacing and arm relative to shoulder plane (more power if you can swing closer to your shoulder plane and keep good spacing at contact) is the part that matters. I think everything before swinging from the slot is just foreplay/prep. You see many variations of hand position at slot in pro 2hbhs for example. Nadal is pretty close to hip at slot before swinging out to contact, and Simone does everything from away from the body. Both have good spacing at contact ... that is what matters imo. What I mean by "swing closer to the shoulder plane". I noticed looking at my 1hbh (neglected for 3 years), that I have a habit of swinging my right arm (dom) with too much downward angle from the shoulder. Even though I feel I am smooth with the 1) shoulder/unit turn first ... then 2) add with arm .... that has to be less powerful leverage than swinging the arm with less downward angle from shoulder. More spacing ... lean forward more ... whatever puts the arm closer to the shoulder plane. I have never seen a instruction video on this ... so just what I observe watching pro 1hbh video. Also ... my 5 minute test at the end of last year (before winter hit), really seemed like I gained effortless increase in easy pace by merely stepping a bit more away from the ball and bending some where I stayed vertical before. Weather is breaking ... I will get to test this some more in the next month.
leojramirez
Rookie
The moment i stopped focusing on prep and more on where I was and body position along with what you mention in leg drive is when i saw consistency on my bh.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
What is the rotation axis (or axes) for the one hand backhand? Do all players do the same thing regarding the axis or axes?
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ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
It is obvious to me focusing on prep ... along with video review ... can be a great aid. What is less obvious is the identifying the time it's time to "drop the technical" drill down ... and go with what you got. For example, at the start of learning the 2hbh three years ago, I think all of my "technical overloading" actually did some good. When you are at the start of a stroke learning curve (or enough a change it should be treated as starting over), it's the best time to ask yourself "what type of stroke" do you want to end up with. For example, I wanted to end up with the Agassi straight/straight ... and not a Venus Williams bent/bent ... so why not start from there when I couldn't hit a ball over the net anyway. FYI ... did not end up at that straight/straight ... ended up bent/straight.
But now ... I face the same question all the time. Would it be detrimental 3 years later to keep looking at my 2hbh for technical flaws. I realize pro golfers like Tiger worked on their swings their entire career. I am not convinced that is a good analogy for rec tennis players. I think it's too easy to get caught in paralysis by analysis. The counter to that is every single time I look at a video of my strokes, I see stuff I did not know I was doing.
Using our ttw brother @Curious as an example. When I watch his current match video, I see a serve and a FH that is technically good enough to "just play a lot now .... and become low UE with those strokes". I swear I could show him many of my past 4.5 friends/teammates that did not have technically as good looking a serve or FH. But ... other than a few, all had better BH strokes, better volleying (turned sideways), and mainly ... just did not miss with their strokes. Also ... all had good control ... could hit to targets. So the Curious technical path ... maybe go with the existing serve and FH, and go address bh and volleys. That's if you your ultimate goal is improving your adult rec game to it's max ... you have to play a lot more than "talk and analyze". I'm at the stage where I am going to decline regardless, and have been totally surprised how much the technical stuff now interests me. I am SO GLAD I was not on a tennis forum when I was playing tournament singles ... SO GLAD.
TnsGuru
Professional
I have a one hander and on service returns I tend to bend the arm similar to federer so I hit in front more. Groundstroke rallies when there is more times to prepare I tend to straighten/lengthen the stroke more. If there is a situation where I need to pick the ball up earlier I will shorten and bend on preperation.
I think just like any groundstroke the prep depends on the speed and height the ball is coming at you and what you want to do with it.
I think just like any groundstroke the prep depends on the speed and height the ball is coming at you and what you want to do with it.