Straight Arm + Windshield Wiper vs. Double-bend + Over-the-shoulder finish

[cukoo]

Sorry for the long title, hope you guys understood what I meant.
Federer, Nadal and Safin are some who uses the straight arm and windshield wiper forehand while Blake, Berdych and Agassi seems to use the double-bend and finsih over the shoulder most of the time.

I know the straight arm is more of a "whipping" motion and the contact point is way out front of the body. But that's about it.

Can anyone tell me how these two way of hitting (straight arm / double bend) and follow through (windshield wiper / over-shoulder) affect the shot?

Thanks

 

[Messarger]

Blake follows through his left shoulder as far as i can remember. I hardly see him finishing over his shoulder.

 

[cukoo]

^Okay then, maybe exclude Blake but Agassi' forehand is definitely a prime example of an over-the-shoulder finish. Any input on the question?

 

[cukoo]

bump bump..

 

[wihamilton]

Windshield wiper = more topspin / over the shoulder = flatter ball. You don't necessarily need a straight(er) arm to hit the ww -- I was just watching a clip of Safin hitting one w/a very bent arm. The type of shot they are trying to hit / their court positioning will influence what arm position(s) these guys choose.

 

[tricky]

In the straight-arm shot, the backswing/takeback is identical to a normal double-bend WW shot. As you initiate the forward swing, you don't tuck the elbow. The arm straightens out passively, due to the torque of the forward swing.

The straight-arm FH has a number of advantages.

1) It enables the forearm to more freely, increasing topspin potential for all grips.

2) It expands your contact sweet spot, enabling strong SW and Extreme grips to hit flat shots at waist height.

3) It facilitates more shoulder rotation, which leads to higher racquet speed

 

[cukoo]

Thanks for the reply wilhamilton & tricky,

I was thinking about this today and although the straight arm technique looks a lot nicer it seems like the double bend technique would produce more pace on the ball. Take the throwing motion fore example, you bring the elbow back, start the forward motion, wrist snap and release the ball. No one would throw a ball with a straight arm...The ball wont go far anyway. Your thoughts?


Which form do you think is better for producing pace (flat shots)?
Also would it be okay to use both form during different situation? Or would it be better to just use and master only one form?

 

[tricky]

I was thinking about this today and although the straight arm technique looks a lot nicer it seems like the double bend technique would produce more pace on the ball.

The key thing is that the mechanics of a straight arm swing and a normal double-bend are almost identical except for one thing. You can easily reproduce a straight-arm shot by creating some space underneath your armpit just as you're about to initiate the forward swing. Everything else is executed the same way.

In terms of pace, there's really no comparison. A straight-arm swing enables your shoulder to rotate much more while the arm goes into the path of the ball. Although you have the caveat of the optimal contact zone being much farther out.

With all that said, a straight-arm shot is only really viable only when you've learned how to properly abbreviate the takeback and swing the forehand from the shoulder. By then, you would also need to know how to initiate optimal windshield wiper action for your grip by swinging "out of a slot" (which optimizes the suppination of the forearm during the transition between backswing and forward swing.) If not -- and most people aren't there yet -- the straight-arm shot will hose your mechanics. Because said person would consciously try to straighten out the arm or try to swing across the body rather than toward the ball.

Take the throwing motion fore example, you bring the elbow back, start the forward motion, wrist snap and release the ball. No one would throw a ball with a straight arm...The ball wont go far anyway. Your thoughts?

But, consider that when you serve, you don't maintain the same elbow bend that you get from the racquet drop. Regardless of how much elbow bend you have during your racquet drop, your arm straightens out during the upward portion of the swing. And, of course, this is something that happens passively/naturally, not through any conscious attempt to straighten the arm.

It should be noted that most people who use a straight-arm FH swing only use it for certain kinds of shots. Federer prefers using it to hit inside-out and DTL shots, but he has a normal double-bend too. It opens up the possibilities of your grip, but it also requires you to take the ball earlier than you're used to.

 

[cukoo]

The key thing is that the mechanics of a straight arm swing and a normal double-bend are almost identical except for one thing. You can easily reproduce a straight-arm shot by creating some space underneath your armpit just as you're about to initiate the forward swing. Everything else is executed the same way.

Really? I find that a straight-arm FH requires a lot of wrist. When you contact the ball, you have to flick your hand up and to the left. (Is this the suppination you speak of?) This naturally starts the "wind shield wiper" motion.
On the other hand, with a double-bend and over the shoulder finish (picture Agassi) I hardly use any wrist at all.

 

[wihamilton]

That "wristy" motion is actually your entire arm -- from shoulder to racket -- turning over. The wrist releases well after contact. Jeff Counts from hi-techtennis compares it to turning a lever over.

 

[JCo872]

That "wristy" motion is actually your entire arm -- from shoulder to racket -- turning over. The wrist releases well after contact. Jeff Counts from hi-techtennis compares it to turning a lever over.

Good stuff!

It is a very common idea that the wrist is the big power generator on the wiper forehand. But if you look at high speed video, you will see that the pros are lifting up their entire arm on contact as the wrist stays back and they push through the ball. Well after the ball has gone, the entire arm turns over and the wrist releases and rotates over.

I like the "turn the lever over" analogy because it shows you how to your arm and shoulder all work together, powerfully, in the stroke.

The biggest mistake people make with this stroke is that they are too "whippy". They use the wrist or the forearm to create torque, but get no mass and drive through the ball - like the top players do.

Will says two key points on his site (fuzzyyellowballs.com) about this:

1. From your contact point extend out in the direction you are hitting
2. The upper body continues to rotate through contact.

If you can use your arm and upper body to extend the racket forward you can really hit heavy. If you just turn over at the wrist, or turn over the forearm at contact, you won't get any juice on the ball.

Jeff

 

[stormholloway]

In the straight-arm shot, the backswing/takeback is identical to a normal double-bend WW shot. As you initiate the forward swing, you don't tuck the elbow. The arm straightens out passively, due to the torque of the forward swing.

The straight-arm FH has a number of advantages.

1) It enables the forearm to more freely, increasing topspin potential for all grips.

2) It expands your contact sweet spot, enabling strong SW and Extreme grips to hit flat shots at waist height.

3) It facilitates more shoulder rotation, which leads to higher racquet speed

Yeah. This is the ticket. Federer has a rather eastern grip but puts wicked top on the ball. I believe because his arm is straight, this lays the wrist further back, allowing far more action on the wrist release and therefore more topspin.

This really is the forehand technique to emulate. Not only does he do this, but he views the ball through the back of his string bed and actually looks at the ball upon contact, whereas most pros you see them looking beyond the contact point.

I'm not so sure that the wrist doesn't move independently of the forearm to a degree...

 

[stormholloway]

That "wristy" motion is actually your entire arm -- from shoulder to racket -- turning over. The wrist releases well after contact. Jeff Counts from hi-techtennis compares it to turning a lever over.

I disagree here. I think the arm acts like a whip. What I mean is that the racquet and wrist release and then turn over, then each link in the chain follows suit. They do not all move together. This would be counterintuitive and I hate to use the whip analogy ad nauseum but it seems to me that this is a great analogy.

The body initiates the energy and this transfers into the arm and then the racquet, now when the racquet begins moving the wrist follows by turning over, then subsequently the forearm follows, and then the shoulder joint follows and rotates as well.

This is how I see it anyway. I simply do not see the wrist, forearm, and shoulder joint all turning simultaneously. And why would they? Once the racquet gets set in motion, there is a distinct path that the energy travels. If the arm stays loose, then all the parts of the arm shouldn't release at the same time.

 

[tricky]

On the other hand, with a double-bend and over the shoulder finish (picture Agassi) I hardly use any wrist at all.

I'd say Agassi still has windshield wiper motion, though less so than his peers. It isn't so much his over-the-shoulder finish that limits his wiper action, but that he keeps his wrist relatively laid back through the entire takeback, which is what most people initially learn.

Really? I find that a straight-arm FH requires a lot of wrist. When you contact the ball, you have to flick your hand up and to the left. (Is this the suppination you speak of?) This naturally starts the "wind shield wiper" motion.

In a WW FH, the forearm pronates out of the transition from the backswing to the forward swing. This is a ballistic response toward the forearm supinating in the transition stage, and so it's something that the user doesn't consciously do. THIS part is where the discussion on wrist or "wristiness" usually goes, and it can be hard to get down.

A lot of people try to manually create wiping action. You'll know this if in their finish, their elbow comes up higher than their hand. However, in a true WW FH, this is a natural reponse of the swing. You concentrate on hitting through the ball, and the forearm rotates around the path of the hitting arm. To get this down, a lot of people use visualizations or "wrist-assist" devices.

Straight-arm WW FH is basically a WW FH with an "expanded" forward swing. As mentioned before, a lot of people try to manufacture wiping action by consciously wiping on the ball, which leads to the elbow hooking. This hurts the integrity of the swing, preventing you from hitting through the ball and hitting it cleanly. The elbow hooking is due to radial/ulnar deviation. In a normal WW FH, you try to supress deviation in your forward swing, which is why the elbow tends to be tucked to the right side of your body. When there is deviation, then the path of the hitting arm changes. However, when you suppress deviation, you also suppress forearm rotation.

In a straight-arm WW FH, the elbow is no longer tucked. Here, the forearm can deviate without changing the correct swing path of the hitting arm. This enables the forearm to rotate with much less restriction, and so an Eastern grip can attain the forearm rotation of a soft SW grip, and a SW grip can attain the forearm rotation of a Western grip, And so on. At the same time, this freedom also reduces the natural down-to-up action of extreme grips, thereby enabling you to hit the ball at a much lower height. So now you can use a Western grip and hit balls at the height of an Eastern grip swing.

In that sense, it's a WW FH with less restrictions, but it's still very much a WW FH. The mistake a lot of people make is that, in treating each as very separate things, they kinda abandon WW FH technique and just start swinging at the ball with a straight arm. The backswing/takeback should be still double-bend and abbreviated.

In terms of real world gameplay, the difference between normal WW FH and straight-arm WW FH is kinda like between a 2H BH and a 1H BH. The former is a steadier shot; the latter opens up your shot selection and promises enormous power.

 

[JCo872]

I disagree here. I think the arm acts like a whip. What I mean is that the racquet and wrist release and then turn over, then each link in the chain follows suit. They do not all move together. This would be counterintuitive and I hate to use the whip analogy ad nauseum but it seems to me that this is a great analogy.

The body initiates the energy and this transfers into the arm and then the racquet, now when the racquet begins moving the wrist follows by turning over, then subsequently the forearm follows, and then the shoulder joint follows and rotates as well.

This is how I see it anyway. I simply do not see the wrist, forearm, and shoulder joint all turning simultaneously. And why would they? Once the racquet gets set in motion, there is a distinct path that the energy travels. If the arm stays loose, then all the parts of the arm shouldn't release at the same time.

The "whip" analogy makes sense intuitively - but it's completely wrong for what high level players are doing. You can see how the arm, wrist, and racket all work together to push and lift the ball here:

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/forehand/topspin.php

 

[stormholloway]

The "whip" analogy makes sense intuitively - but it's completely wrong for what high level players are doing. You can see how the arm, wrist, and racket all work together to push and lift the ball here:

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/forehand/topspin.php

I agree that they work together. None of the players on that page is Federer, and it's very well understood that his technique is different from those players. The wrist does indeed move independently from the shoulder joint.

Look at the second forehand here from Nadal, whom I consider to have the second best forehand in the game:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=oeXRYb-B3OM

You can clearly see in the second forehand that the wrist is rolling over independently of the forearm/shoulder joint.

That link you posted is of the double bend, but the double bend is not necessarily the optimal technique. You get far more leverage with a straight arm and this straight arm will also allow the the racquet to lay back further behind the ball prior to contact.

My opinion is that the wrist releases, rolls over, and the rest of the arm follows very closely behind it.

 

[JCo872]

Clear evidence that the racket isn't "whipping" through the ball is to look at the racket face orientation through and after contact. It involves what Dave Smith calls "keeping the plane the same".

You can see how the racket face is square to the ball on impact and stays facing the net well after contact as the arm lifts up and pushes forward:

 

[JCo872]

I agree that they work together. None of the players on that page is Federer, and it's very well understood that his technique is different from those players. The wrist does indeed move independently from the shoulder joint.

Look at the second forehand here from Nadal, whom I consider to have the second best forehand in the game:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=oeXRYb-B3OM

You can clearly see in the second forehand that the wrist is rolling over independently of the forearm/shoulder joint.

That link you posted is of the double bend, but the double bend is not necessarily the optimal technique. You get far more leverage with a straight arm and this straight arm will also allow the the racquet to lay back further behind the ball prior to contact.

My opinion is that the wrist releases, rolls over, and the rest of the arm follows very closely behind it.

When Federer straightens out the arm and add a lot of wrist to the stroke, I agree that he is getting more of a "whip" effect like you describe. My personal opinion, however, is that Federer and Nadal are the only players in the world that can pull this off. 99% of the best players in the world can't pull this off so I that's why I don't recommend it or teach it. The timing involved in those strokes is almost superhuman.

But if you can hit this kind of a forehand, please post a video. It would be helpful to the community here.

 

[Jonnyf]

When Federer straightens out the arm and add a lot of wrist to the stroke, I agree that he is getting more of a "whip" effect like you describe. My personal opinion, however, is that Federer and Nadal are the only players in the world that can pull this off. 99% of the best players in the world can't pull this off so I that's why I don't recommend it or teach it. The timing involved in those strokes is almost superhuman.

But if you can hit this kind of a forehand, please post a video. It would be helpful to the community here.

Don't forget Verdasco, He's got the straightened arm and an insane forehand! Also Puerta.

 

[stormholloway]

When Federer straightens out the arm and add a lot of wrist to the stroke, I agree that he is getting more of a "whip" effect like you describe. My personal opinion, however, is that Federer and Nadal are the only players in the world that can pull this off. 99% of the best players in the world can't pull this off so I that's why I don't recommend it or teach it. The timing involved in those strokes is almost superhuman.

But if you can hit this kind of a forehand, please post a video. It would be helpful to the community here.

Well the way I think I hit the ball and the way I actually do are probably two different things.

That said I do straight my arm and watch the ball through contact. I think this is key. As for whether or not my wrist moves freely through contact, I don't know. My forehand has been really great lately and I attribute it to using my body, staying loose, straightening my arm, and watching that ball until after I hit it.

 

[wihamilton]

I agree that they work together. None of the players on that page is Federer, and it's very well understood that his technique is different from those players. The wrist does indeed move independently from the shoulder joint.

Look at the second forehand here from Nadal, whom I consider to have the second best forehand in the game:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=oeXRYb-B3OM

You can clearly see in the second forehand that the wrist is rolling over independently of the forearm/shoulder joint.

That link you posted is of the double bend, but the double bend is not necessarily the optimal technique. You get far more leverage with a straight arm and this straight arm will also allow the the racquet to lay back further behind the ball prior to contact.

My opinion is that the wrist releases, rolls over, and the rest of the arm follows very closely behind it.

It looks to me like Nadal's wrist releases well after contact. Hard to see w/youtube's player because it doesn't let you go frame by frame (lame), but if you freeze the clip right after contact he's still "in" his hitting arm position. His wrist release is very pronounced, in my opinion, because he is hitting a super-heavy topspin cross-court passing shot.

 

[JCo872]

Check this one out, frame by frame:
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/video_sample/index.php?movie=nadal_leverage.swf

Focus on his shoulder and how he uses his massive shoulder muscle to drive through the ball. The wrist is not whipping through contact - if it did, he wouldn't get the power of his upper body through the ball. The does "turn" his hand, in a counter clockwise motion - but this turning motion is in harmony, or in synch, with the arm and shoulder which drives through the ball.

You can see exactly what Will talks about in this clip - extend forward and rotate the torso through the ball.

 

[stormholloway]

I don't get your point, and I don't see how you can tell all of that from that video.

When the wrist breaks, it must rotate back to a neutral position when it's released. This is just natural. The more the wrist breaks, the more movement the wrist will have to make to return to that neutral position.

 

[tricky]

Just wanted to add that the straight-arm takeback that you see with Nadal and Federer is mutually exclusive from the straight-arm FH. You have a straight-arm takeback and a tucked "double-bend" forward swing (Gonzo, Joker?) You can have a double-bend takeback and a straight-arm forward swing (Safin, Verdasco, etc.)

 

[Stroke]

When Federer straightens out the arm and add a lot of wrist to the stroke, I agree that he is getting more of a "whip" effect like you describe. My personal opinion, however, is that Federer and Nadal are the only players in the world that can pull this off. 99% of the best players in the world can't pull this off so I that's why I don't recommend it or teach it. The timing involved in those strokes is almost superhuman.

But if you can hit this kind of a forehand, please post a video. It would be helpful to the community here.

Jeff,

I love your insights here. One more player that may be a candidate to join Fed and Nadal with this kind of forehand is Verdasco.

 

[Stroke]

Jeff,

I love your insights here. One more player that may be a candidate to join Fed and Nadal with this kind of forehand is Verdasco.

I just noticed that Verdasco had been metioned in an earlier post by johnny. He also mentioned Puerta. That was a good call. Puerta FH almost looks like a carbon copy of Nadal's.

 

[JCo872]

Stroke/Jonny,

Here is a list of all the straight armed forehands I have seen:

Alex Corretja
Paradorn Schrichiphan
Verdasco
Nadal
Federer
Philippoussis

What is interesting is that all these forehands are still very different. Nadal's forehand has much more topspin than Federer's. But Federer and Nadal both use more wrist than any of the others. Verdasco doesn't, in my opinion, use his wrist like Federer and Nadal at all. And the "older" players in the list, Corretja, Scrhichiphan didn't have huge forehands.

I think what separates Federer and Nadal are a) the use of the wrist and b) their extreme finishes. Federer finishes by breaking his elbow and coming quickly over and across. Nadal finishes very often with the "reverse" finish by extending his upper arm radically upward.

In any case, I think all the players in the list could be copied with the exception of Nadal and Federer. Their forehands are just too unique and require either great strength and great timing (Nadal) or impeccable timing and incredible flexibility (Federer). Verdasco's forehand seems much more manageable to me because he doesn't use a lot of wrist and he doesn't have an extreme finish like Nadal or Federer.

To get back to the poster that says he has copied Federer's forehand - I just think it's crazy when people say this. Federer has developed the greatest forehand the sport has ever seen. This ferocious weapon is, to me, one of the biggest reasons he has dominated the sport for so long and so convincingly. It's the kind of stroke you see once every 30 years or so I'd say. Nadal's forehand is up there as well. His dominance on clay is largely attributable to this extraordinary stroke.

Either way, Federer and Nadal both use very straight arm, both incorporate a lot of wrist, yet have very different effects with their forehands. My point is that even if you could teach a player to straighten his arm and incorporate more wrist, you wouldn't guarantee the timing and the extraordinary finishes that these two tennis geniuses have developed.

Just my 2 cents.

Jeff

 

[JCo872]

Here is a snapshot of some of these varying finishes:

 

[Jonnyf]

Here is a snapshot of some of these varying finishes:

I was going to comment to you before about how I felt that Verdasco really comes OVER the ball straight after contact

 

[Jackie T. Stephens]

Verdasco uses a straight arm??

 

[Jonnyf]

Verdasco uses a straight arm??

Yes, You can check Jeff's free vids on hi-techtennis.com and see Verdasco's straight arm.

Jeff: 2 points if that's ok: 1) 1st'ly NICE list, good find on P'don I hadn't noticed his straight arm before!
2) You've seen some stills from my forehand, what do you think I'd notice if I went out and tried straightening my arm, would you think I'd notice, do you think that I'd notice an increase/decrease in pace on shots? I mean it could become apparent that I'm over rotating or my rotation is not starting quickly enough etc.?
Thanks alot man, just wondering?