String change, ball keeps sailing long on aggressive hits

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by ThirtyLove, Sep 12, 2018.

  1. ThirtyLove

    ThirtyLove New User

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    I have luxilon 4g soft at 51/49lbs on a Yonex vcore pro 97. I used to use Kevlar / gut hybrid but changed to poly bc of elbow issues (all gone now!)

    So the biggest difference was how much more free power I'm getting. I like the 4G S, especially on my serves and normal rallying. But, the biggest issue is I when I try to rip a big forehand (dtl approach) it keeps going long by just a foot or so. Used to be my strongest shot. It was going out longer and I'm still adjusting, but mainly by not swinging as fast.

    Maybe a dumb question, but what can I change so I can really rip it again and not go long. From what I know:

    A) more topspin (but easier said then done, already have quite a bit of topspin.. coach is trying to tone down spin a bit and add more pace)
    B) change strings (but I'd like to keep using the 4G S strings bc of it's tension maintenance)

    So..is my best option to:
    C) **increase tension?**

    If so, should I try 53/51 next or a bit higher?

    Thanks for your help!
     
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  2. ThirtyLove

    ThirtyLove New User

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    Im just slightly concerned about elbow issues again by increased tension..
     
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  3. Wise one

    Wise one Semi-Pro

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    Use gut, around 62-65lbs. Your tension is way too low.
     
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  4. Slicerman

    Slicerman Semi-Pro

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    How recent was the string change?
    Maybe you just need more time to re-calibrate and find your range. That's pretty normal when a change in equipment is made.
     
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  5. ThirtyLove

    ThirtyLove New User

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    A week or so! Yeah I'll definitely try it out for a few more weeks before spending more money to change strings etc
     
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  6. ThirtyLove

    ThirtyLove New User

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    My number 1 criteria for strings is tension maintenance / playability duration so gut was definitely on my radar. I tried full gut and full Kevlar before (40lbs), and loved Kevlar (but elbow issues). Gut was a bit too lively and mushy. To be fair I tried gut on a completely different racket (babolat pure storm LTD gt) and at 55lbs. It might have just been that I dont like flexy frames..but it's quite expensive to just try out and given that I loved Kevlar I don't find myself liking full gut
     
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  7. Morch Us

    Morch Us Semi-Pro

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    I agree with the other poster, that you need a bit more time to adjust to the change. You changed from kevlar/gut to full poly. There is a good amount of change in launch angle and the stroke power/depth/spin.

    It may look counter-intuitive but try hitting it more through and up front (you would think it may go longer, but try). On kevlar, the balls stay on the strings a tad bit more longer and you are probably used to it. Do you feel the balls bounce off the new strings too quickly?

     
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  8. ThirtyLove

    ThirtyLove New User

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    Interesting, I'll definitely try it out. I'm not sure I feel a difference in dwell time, but I definitely feel less "grip/bite" on the ball. Kinda sad that I don't see the fuzz ripping off anymore since I changed from kevlar but I heard textured polys have worse playability duration than round ones like 4G. If money was no issue I would just go with solinco tour bite but I need strings that a bit longer.
     
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  9. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    D) Aim your shot lower.

    If you're truly a power, top spin hitter, the net will feel very very low and very hard to hit the ball into!!!

    Most of my errors are long. It takes me a serious amount of fighting my own instinct and aim my shot very low and ball still almost never hit the net. I would get great shots though. :)
     
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  10. ThirtyLove

    ThirtyLove New User

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    Oh hey that actually sounds like it'll do the trick! The vast majority of my unforced errors are long balls and I don't hit the net too often. Why didn't I think of that haha. Thanks!
     
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  11. Shroud

    Shroud G.O.A.T.

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    Kev/monogut zx with a 20lb differential has the best tension maintence i have seen if you prestretch. Kev/4gs would be great too.

    Fwiw both should be easier on the elbow than kev/gut.

    Not sure about kevlar and the ball staying on the strings longer. I string super tight so maybe thats why ball pocketing is not something i often experience.
     
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  12. Wise one

    Wise one Semi-Pro

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    Tension WAY TOO LOW! String at least 60lbs!
     
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  13. Big Bagel

    Big Bagel Semi-Pro

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    Not if he's using poly! Yeah, it's possible to play up there (I used to be at 60), but it is not recommended with poly strings.

    I would agree that you need more time to adjust. However, you could always try bumping up the tension a little bit (not to 60+), or you could try switching to the normal 4G instead of 4G Soft.

    It's not practical for most people monetarily, including myself, but if you really want to feel butter, my favorite setup I've tried is Luxilon Natural Gut/4G. Bump up the tension of the gut 4-10 pounds, keep the 4G a similar tension to what you've got. The It's the longest playability I've had in a setup, as I traditionally use full poly, and occasionally will use a poly/multi hybrid.
     
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  14. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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  15. Slicerman

    Slicerman Semi-Pro

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    That article is actually outdated, 2011 was before his racquet change from a 90 sq inch frame to a 97 sq inch frame. In Federer's current racquet he uses 26-27kg tension (~57-59lbs)


    [​IMG]
     
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  16. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    Mucho thanks for the update. However, Federer’s 57+ lbs still falls short of Wise one’s mandate that the OP must string at 60 lbs or higher with poly.
     
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  17. Slicerman

    Slicerman Semi-Pro

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    Yeah. I think 60lbs and higher is actually ridiculously high. From all the things I've heard about pro's setups, rarely anyone strings that high. Most pros are somewhere in the 40 to 60 lb range. I heard that some guys string even lower. Like mid 30s, I think guys like Sock and Mannarino.
     
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  18. Shroud

    Shroud G.O.A.T.

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  19. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    That is insanely high. Dustin Brown’s extreme tension is hardly the norm, especially with stiff/poly strings. Not heard of that kind of tension since Borg (before the days of ultra stiff strings). The following review of Dustin’s racket advises against the use of poly strings.

    tennisnerd.net/gear/racquets/racquet-reviews/racquet-review-babolat-pure-drive-with-fsi/3783
     
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  20. Wise one

    Wise one Semi-Pro

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    I use 17 gauge gut in small wood racquets, 59-61 lbs. When I was using larger graphite racquets (for about 10 years), I used about 64lbs. I had a Yonex R22 strung at 66lbs, and still had trouble keeping backhands from flying into the fence. That's why I went back to wood.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2018
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  21. Shroud

    Shroud G.O.A.T.

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    Well stringers are super conservative and dont like getting requests above manufacturers rec tensions so get your salt. Iirc blake and monfils strung tight and so did Agassi.

    And fwiw imho if you have good technique you can play at any tensions without injury if you have a slick cross like poly and the mains can slide on impact. Its when the stringbed is locked that one can get into trouble. But that is nuance and no one likes that these days so notions like poly is bad and shouldnt be used get thrown around without understanding.
     
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  22. mad dog1

    mad dog1 Legend

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    Might want to learn how to hit with topspin then. Google Bjorn Borg.
     
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  23. Dragy

    Dragy Professional

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    It’s weird, but I have something in defense of @Wise one’s position. First, he refers full bed of gut (even though he responds and quotes full bed poly data), not even hybrid. Second, Fed uses his setup for like 30 min, or what? Imagine him in need to play his 6th hour with same setup, and you find him higher initially even with gut tension maintainance. Pre-stretch may also play its role.
     
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  24. mnttlrg

    mnttlrg Semi-Pro

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    If your ball is sailing, your crosses are probably too loose. Try it with even tensions. And I do most polys closer to 55.
    (aggressive hitter here)

    It could be a botched string job. Test to see if the strings are easy to move around with your fingers.

    When I was having the same problem, I actually started stringing my crosses 1-1.5 lbs tighter than the mains.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  25. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    Hit lower.
    (It may be coming off the stringbed at a slightly higher launch angle. For me, kevlar-gut is more directionally controllable than anything else.)
     
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  26. Shroud

    Shroud G.O.A.T.

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    He he. Try kev/kev. But yeah a locked stringbed is more directionably controlable
     
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  27. Wise one

    Wise one Semi-Pro

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    I can hit topspin with my backhand just fine. The problem was the racquet. I later switched to a Yonex R-50, which was stiffer, but eventually I found it not as satisfactory as wood.
     
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  28. Raul_SJ

    Raul_SJ Hall of Fame

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    You must be the only guy here playing with wood.
     
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  29. Raul_SJ

    Raul_SJ Hall of Fame

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    Federer strings with gut main and poly crosses. It sounds like he's saying both are at 57 pound tension?

    Why do some pros string in the 40s? Doesn't that give a trampoline effect? Most racket specs I see recommend 55-60 pounds tension. I assume this recommended tension is irrespective of the type of string (natural gut, synthetic gut,poly)?
     
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  30. Morch Us

    Morch Us Semi-Pro

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    Racquet "recommended" spec is based on the quality control they have. They may even recommend a specific string. It just means what they tested, and how they intend the customer to use the racquet. It also has some marketing and warranty reasons as well. For example a Wilson racket is always going to recommend some overpriced Wilson string.

    Short answer is the type of string and string characteristics do have a huge impact on tension. A stiff poly at 30lbs (surprisingly usable by many) is not the same as a soft multi-filament at 30lbs (unusable for most).

     
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  31. Wise one

    Wise one Semi-Pro

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    They have no idea what they are missing.
     
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  32. Wise one

    Wise one Semi-Pro

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    I have read that Borg strung at about 80, Sampras about 70, and McEnroe about 47. They all used gut. About 10 years ago, I bought a nice used Wilson Pro Staff 85 (Sampras' racquet) and strung it at 64lbs (gut, of course) and found I could not control it. My half-volleys (which I usually hit aggressively) tended to fly long. It was simply too light. Most of my racquets are Light-Medium (12.5-13oz) or Medium (13.25-13.75 oz).
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2018
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  33. Dartagnan64

    Dartagnan64 Legend

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    Your setup is fine. Just need to get it dialed in with by altering your racket face and swing path slightly.

    And it’s ridiculous to blame balls going long on string tension. All strings lose tension every single time out. Your brain adjusts accordingly.
     
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  34. tlm

    tlm G.O.A.T.

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    You definitely need to string tighter, poly has a lot more power than Kevlar does.
     
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  35. Wise one

    Wise one Semi-Pro

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    Just a few pounds of change in tension can have a big effect on your strokes.
     
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  36. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    Not sure what your point is here. I believe that the OP is asking about stringing with poly (or co-poly) and is not considering stringing with gut. TMK, only a small % of rec or non-pro players regularly string with gut. String tension recommendations for poly/copoly would be quite a bit less than for gut. String tensions for poly are often recommended at 10-20% lower than for gut or nylon.

    https://gssalliance.com/2015/11/dispelling-mindsets-about-tension/

    I’ve read similar numbers for Borg, Sampras & JMac. At one time Sampras did, indeed, string around 70 lbs. But I’ve also heard that he dropped his string tension from that high tension. Not sure if he did this toward the end of his pro career. I believe that he has gone with more modern strings on the senior tour and lower tensions.

    Agassi adopted poly strings, and lower tensions, in the early 00s. I believe that a large % of modern pros are using a fully co-poly stringbed. A gut/copoly hybrid setup is also popular on the tour. Don’t believe that a full gut bed is very common any longer.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2018
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  37. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    First off, all tennis racket stringbeds act like a trampoline. Not certain if there a universally accepted definition for the so-called, “trampoline effect” for tennis. For me, the trampoline effect refers to a very “bouncy”, somewhat mushy (not crisp) feel of the ball on the stringbed. I’ve experienced this effect on OS frames (110 sq”). I have not experienced this with 95 or 100 sq” frames, even with lower tensions. But I’ve not actually tried string tensions any lower than high 40s.

    www.hep.fsu.edu/~wahl/phy3091/sp05/talk1/AGomesTalk1.ppt

    I believe that racket string tension specs are recommendations assuming natural gut or nylon (synthetic gut) strings. Stiffer strings, like Kevlar or poly/copoly are typically strung looser than this range. From what I understand, poly strings have considerably less tendency to “trampoline” that more elastic strings — even at low stringing tensions.

    I believe that before Federer switched to a larger frame, he was using tensions in the mid/high 40s. Not certain if this was full poly/copoly or a gut/luxilon hybrid setup. With the larger frame, Roger is using tensions at 57+ lbs. I’ve read that he is using a natural gut on the mains and Luxilon copoly on the crosses for this.

    Players who string at the lowest tensions (30s and 40s), are often using full poly or co-poly. https://tenniscompanion.org/tennis-string-tension/

     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2018
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  38. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    @Shroud @Wise one @ThirtyLove
    I don’t know for certain but I’ll take your word that poly has more power potential that Kevlar. But is it really a LOT more power? Even so, there is another factor to consider that may very well override this.

    From what I understand, the spin potential is significantly greater for full poly or even a poly hybrid stringbed than for Kevlar. This is why poly has become so much more popular with pro players than Kevlar ever was. The extra spin will probably more than compensate for any added power.

    According to the web site below, Kevlar tensions 5-10% lower than nylon tensions are suggested. Poly tensions are typically recommended to be 10-20% lower than nylon.

    https://tenniscompanion.org/tennis-string-tension/
     
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  39. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Legend

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  40. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    SA and all,

    Certain (and many) poly's do indeed have more power than Kevlar. I have used strung and used them all extensively. With certain polys my stringer weight thing can drop several times before becoming stable, meaning quite stretchy, whereas it nearly doesn't drop at all with Kevlar. Kevlar practically doesn't stretch at all and it is for string breakers/money savers. All the power has to come from your own swing and the rubbery of the ball. Very nasty to use.

    Why anyone would want to use Kevlar and very high tension polys (eg 60 and above) other than to save some $$ is beyond me.

    As I always say in other conversations, power in your stroke is difficult and precious. Control is easy. Everyone can control the ball in. That's how they can continue to come out and play. But, how often do you see someone hit with pro's pace? Almost never.

    You should tool your equipment to give you the most power and with only enough control you can tolerate. I play in 52# poly until it breaks, so there's a good chance it becomes mid 40s in the end and I have to hit my arm out to get the ball moving!
     
    #40
  41. Morch Us

    Morch Us Semi-Pro

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    You got that wrong. Almost anyone can bash a ball at "pro speeds" at least once in a while. Doing that consistently and hitting targets (control) is what is more difficult.

    If I remove the net from your tennis court, and ask you to hit as fast as you can, how fast do you think you can hit a ground stroke or serve?

    If I ask you to hit a specific 20cm diameter spot 10 times in a row (baseline to baseline), how many times would you think you will hit that spot.

    Controlled and consistent power is what defines a player at any level.

     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2018
    #41
  42. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    Why would I be talking about what people can do randomly and inconsistently and once in a while?

    If we took that into consideration, then I could serve, hit, dropshot, etc. like a pro in my 10 years. Eg. I must have had at least 1 100mph+ 1st, 1 crazy 2nd kick serve, 1 successful dropshot at Djokovic's caliber. LOL.
     
    #42
  43. Kimiko Yuuki

    Kimiko Yuuki New User

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    I am using Yonex PolyTour Fire 125 @ 70# full bed. Control is never an issue for me. I dial in shots with pin point accuracy and loads of power, so much power when I play doubles I had to completely relearn my deliveries but is so worth it. I won't go back to Kevlar ever again.

    Sent from my ASUS_Z01BDC using Tapatalk
     
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  44. Dragy

    Dragy Professional

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    Wow, what racquet you play? What's your level of play?
     
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  45. Shroud

    Shroud G.O.A.T.

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    I have strung up some full poly beds at the same tension as kev/poly. I couldnt play with them after say the 1st 30 min. Always went back to kev/poly. Sure I could just bunt the ball and “get it in” but I would rather die. Where is the fun in holding off the gas?

    And sadly when people speak of “kevlar” they always mean kevlar/syngut which yes, will kill spin. Its the syngut not the kevlar. Kev/poly gets you good spin. As good as full poly perhaps not but pretty close and lowered power.

    That site is pretty general and they are hedging their bets. Kevlar is good to 200+ pounds of tension, but some polys will be toast at 60lbs or less and so they have to say to be conservative on the tension.

    If I went by their guidelines i would be hitting everything long...

    Sure my setups are not quite normal as I Frankenstein every racquet and use stiff and powerfull sticks with lots of lead. But even recent experiments where the racquet is much lighter at 12oz has me stringing at max tension.
     
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  46. Shroud

    Shroud G.O.A.T.

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    What was your kevlar setup?
     
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  47. Shroud

    Shroud G.O.A.T.

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    You may notbe able to imagine it, but some people are different. Your “control is easy” mantra may just be 180 degrees opposite for others. Power is easy for me control not so much

    So i use kevlar/poly for performance not to save money. There is no other combo that is playable. And even then high tensions are needed.

    Sure I COULD just dink the ball back and control any racquet but where is the fun in that?

    Why cant the op just get the ball in on his dtl shots?? Control is easy right??
     
    #47
  48. tlm

    tlm G.O.A.T.

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    Yes it is a lot more power, if you notice Kevlar is almost always sold as a hybrid. But poly is used as a full bed by many players. Try a full bed of Kevlar compared to a full bed of poly and then let me know if poly has a lot more power than Kevlar. As far as spin potential goes I believe Kevlar can produce as much spin as poly.
     
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  49. Morch Us

    Morch Us Semi-Pro

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    Not just you, it is the same way for most (except for maybe some really weak/physically challenged). It is just that at beginner levels folks tend to focus more on power.
     
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  50. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    @Shroud
    Have never used Kevlar myself and from the caveats on Kevlar, I’m not tempted to ever try it. I don’t spend much time in the Strings forum but from what I have read, a number of posters there indicate that poly has a greater spin potential, in general, than Kevlar.

    TWU and other sources tout the higher spin potential of polyester but do not do so for Kevlar strings. But they do attest to the greater power potential of polyester over Kevlar.

    https://www.tennis-warehouse.com/LC/StringReference.html
    twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/spinpotentialtool.php


    https://www.tennisgear.com.au/pages/restringing-guide
    “Kevlar is extremely durable and this hybrid was used by chronic stringbreakers to save them restringing as often. With the increasing popularity of polyester kevlar is seldom used now. Polyester is not quite as durable as kevlar but it's spin potential and better feel have seen it replace kevlar as the best choice for string breakers.”
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2018
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