stringing machines and mattresses... all the same?

[eelhc]

I've been looking at a fixed clamp drop weight stringing machine with a clutch and the two machines that are recommended the most often are the X-6FC (Progression II 602 FC) and the Alpha Pioneer DC Plus. The Pioneer DC plus is less expensive (delivered price), has the linear gripper and looks better built (at least in pictures) so I was leaning toward it.

That said, the Pioneer DC plus looks identical to Eagnas Challenger I. In fact many of Eagnas machines look very similar or identical to other brands.

Gamma I thought might spec their own (X-6FC) but the Eagnas Flash 767/737 looks suspiciously similar to the Progression 2 602 FC.

Are these essentially built in the same factory/machine shop somewhere in china and customized with different paint jobs and slight component variations (per the importer's preferences)? Same as the mattress model numbers (slight change in model #'s and finishes so the customer can never actually compare mattresses from different stores)?

Now if Alpha/Stringway or whoever they are offer better service and after sales customer care, certainly it's worth paying a premium for the Pioneer DC plus given the hit and miss reputation Eagnas has. Maybe Eagnas builds machines out of parts that don't quite meet gamma/Alpha tolerances (scrap)?

 

[beernutz]

Eagnas makes cheap(er) knockoffs. What is your question again?

 

[eelhc]

Eagnas makes cheap(er) knockoffs. What is your question again?

My question exactly... Are they knockoffs? Has someone actually done a side/side part/part comparison (even casually)? Or is the Alpha the same machine sold with better service/customer care (which I would still pay a premium for)?

 

[beernutz]

My question exactly... Are they knockoffs? Has someone actually done a side/side part/part comparison (even casually)? Or is the Alpha the same machine sold with better service/customer care (which I would still pay a premium for)?

Yes, Eagnas has done this on their website. They practically beg you to compare their model of stringer to a nearly identical, but more expensive stringer from one of their competitors. Have you looked around their site at all? Go compare the description of the EAG-300 to the Prince Neos 1000 for example. Do you think Eagnas just randomly decided to put together a stringing machine with those combined features and it just so happened that one of the most popular stringing machines from the last 25 years just also happened to have those same features?

Or are you saying that you believe the same factory is making both the EAG-300 and the Neos (or whichever comparison of Eagnas and a competitor's models you want to use) and just using cheaper parts on the former to keep the cost down? I think that is extremely unlikely. I own a Neos and have had my hands on an EAG-300 and I don't believe there is much chance they are made at the same factory just using cheaper parts. I believe Eagnas (or Maxline who is that actual manufacturer of the machines, Eagnas is just the US distributor) makes their stringers just different enough to avoid any patent issues. There are a lot of factories over in China you know.

 

[eelhc]

I'm not trying to be argumentative so I'll clarify my original question to limit it to the entry level machines. I'm sure Prince/Ektelon, Babolat... have machines built to their spec/quality control so peace... no comparisons to Eagnas (or anyone else) there...

That said... Either Eagnas is really good at ripping off Alpha/gamma's entry stringers or they're all built by the same outfit using the same castings... I have over 25 years experience in contract manufacturing experience (mostly electronics and electronics packaging) and working in the supply chain... it would not surprise me one bit if all of these entry machine parts were built in the same factory in Shenzhen...

 

[beernutz]

I'm not trying to be argumentative so I'll clarify my original question to limit it to the entry level machines. I'm sure Prince/Ektelon, Babolat... have machines built to their spec/quality control so peace... no comparisons to Eagnas (or anyone else) there...

That said... Either Eagnas is really good at ripping off Alpha/gamma's entry stringers or they're all built by the same outfit using the same castings... I have over 25 years experience in contract manufacturing experience (mostly electronics and electronics packaging) and working in the supply chain... it would not surprise me one bit if all of these entry machine parts were built in the same factory in Shenzhen...

Sorry if I was a bit over-the-top in my reply. I was just exuberantly relaying my observations. ;-)

Like I said, I have only see the EAG-300 up close and personal. I guess anything is possible with respect to manufacturing now-a-days but it seems unlikely to me that the Princes, Alphas, Gammas, or what-have-yous of the world would allow their machines to be made in the same factory as Maxlines (or Lillie-Lee or whatever they're actually called). If that became public knowledge it would be a public-relations nightmare for them. To me it seems unlikely but I refuse to rule out impossible.

 

[eelhc]

iPhones are made in the same Foxconn factory that makes a crapload of junk electronics.

What I've learned from working with the low cost geo suppliers is that one has to specify every detail and watch them like a hawk. Otherwise stainless steel hardware gets replaced with cheaper alternatives, tolerances become looser, counterfeit/black market components get used. You name it. Since practically nothing is made in the US or Europe anymore... I suspect Prince/Babolat... are doing the due dilligence.

Back on topic... I see that reading carefully through the Eagnas website that for some machines they indicate "much cheaper than the other importer".

Back off topic... some folks have indicated that most poly/multifilament strings are made in just a handful of factories and rebranded... this wouldn't surprise me either.

 

[beernutz]

iPhones are made in the same Foxconn factory that makes a crapload of junk electronics.

What I've learned from working with the low cost geo suppliers is that one has to specify every detail and watch them like a hawk. Otherwise stainless steel hardware gets replaced with cheaper alternatives, tolerances become looser, counterfeit/black market components get used. You name it. Since practically nothing is made in the US or Europe anymore... I suspect Prince/Babolat... are doing the due dilligence.

Back on topic... I see that reading carefully through the Eagnas website that for some machines they indicate "much cheaper than the other importer".

Back off topic... some folks have indicated that most poly/multifilament strings are made in just a handful of factories and rebranded... this wouldn't surprise me either.

That is the horse of a different color. KlipperUSA comes right out and says this on their website about their string: http://www.klipperusa.com/brandcomparison.php

 

[zapvor]

here is what i keep telling people. buy the best machine you can afford. not only will it last you forever, but you will have fun while you use it. why get stuck using a crappy machine for something as fun as tennis? also, machines are not like cars. its not like in 5yrs you are going to trade it in for a new one.

 

[struggle]

i agree whole heartedly that some better eagnas machines look EXACTLY like some of the alpha machines.
IIRC, the combo 910 and the whatever alpha look identical.

at least in pictures......this is why those alpha machines don't impress me. i don't see anything on eagna's site that looks remotely as close to a NEOS or 6004, however (detail wise).

 

[barry]

It is not the stringing machine which creates a good string job, but the stringer. A stringing machine is just a tool to hold the racket in place; pull the desired tension; and clamp and hold the desired tension, nothing else.

I have strung thousands of rackets on my cheap (Flea Bay) Eagnas stringer, and it just keeps right on working. Yes I adjust the base clamps about every 400 or 500 rackets, and hate the 6 knob mounting system. But for $450 it has earned its keep. Closes machine to mine is the Gamma 5003 which cost twice as much. I took the difference and purchased a Wise 2086, and have an excellent electronic setup for under $1000. Plus a crank backup, hopefully never needed. If the Eagnas ever dies, I will be buying a Prince 1500 (provided they are still in business) because of the 2 point quick mounting. String time for me is about 22 minutes per frame, unless pre-stretch, which takes an extra 5 minutes with the Wise.

 

[Clintspin]

The machines are obvious knockoffs but what is interesting is that the Eagnas website shows a chart that claims they were making many of the models before their competitors. It has to be an outright deception.

 

[Irvin]

Knockoff or cheap imitation call it what you want. I don't think the Gamma has a clutch though I believe the Gamma machines are ratchet machines.

 

[eelhc]

The machines are obvious knockoffs but what is interesting is that the Eagnas website shows a chart that claims they were making many of the models before their competitors. It has to be an outright deception.

Eagnas may be deceptive but I'm not convinced they are knockoffs in the true sense of the word... My suspicion is that a single or a small set of OEMs make all of these machines and they customize slightly depending on the importer/customer.

I seriously doubt that Eagnas have a staff of mechanical engineers hard at work designing stringing machines. They are an importer. Alpha Racquet Sports too I believe is an importer with no in house design capability (they are the US importer of Stringway too?).

The difference I've observed is that Alpha has universally glowing and recommended customer service while Eagnas is the polar opposite. This enough is a reason to buy an Alpha stringer.

What I can't put my finger on is whether the Alpha machines are spec'd better (better hardware, tighter tolerances...). This happens all the time in the OEM/ODM space (lots of personal experience in the electronics industry). It's not unlike Walmart squeezing Vlasic for pennies on a jar of pickles and Vlasic cutting costs to the point the finer product wasn't even pickles technically (true story).

I understand a lot of this is conjecture but I'm seeing a lot of smoke.

I'll probably buy the Alpha Pioneer DC Plus or the Gamma X-6FC. It's really a shame that Kippermate only makes the one entey model. I would pay a serious premium (at least 15%) for a US made fixed clamp, drop weight, clutch machine with a lifetime warranty.

 

[Rabbit]

My 2 cents...

With stringing machines, you absolutely get what you pay for. There is more to consider than the tensioning mechanism, namely the mounting and clamps. A tension head accurate to 1/1000th of a kilo isn't worth squat if the mounting system fouls your frame or worse is so un-user friendly that you can break your frame. Same applies to crappy clamps. If they require so much pressure you crush the string, continually break, or just plain don't hold, then you've got a boat anchor.

All that said, let's say that they are about equal. Buying a name machine also pays for a decent level of customer service. And if you buy a Prince or Gamma, you may never need it....but if you do it's there unlike the vast majority of complaints I've read about Eagnas.

 

[RetroSpin]

The OP raises an interesting question. You'd think there would be an objective side-by-side comparison somewhere, but if there is, I haven't seen it.

Obviously, an Eagnas is not the same machine as a Prince or Gamma just because it has the same features. A Chevy Impala isn't the same car as an Audi A8 just because both have four doors and a steering wheel.

What I think the OP wants to know, and I as well, is how significant the differences are. Opinions seem all over the lot. Some say they have strung hundreds of sticks on their Eagnas machines and like them. Others complain of loose tolerances,etc that make them trying to use. No one says the customer support is any good.

I saw a Mutual Power crank machine next to a Gamma electronic, 5800 or something like that, and the MP looked like a piece of crude junk. It turned out decent string jobs though. Does it just come down to how much we are prepared to pay for pride of ownership versus just getting the job done?

 

[mmk]

... It's really a shame that Kippermate only makes the one entey model. I would pay a serious premium (at least 15%) for a US made fixed clamp, drop weight, clutch machine with a lifetime warranty.

Klipper does make other models, the closest to what you are looking for is the 440-CS, but it has a single fixed clamp. Klipperusa dot com lists all their models under the Stringing Machines tab.

 

[Woolybugger]

You can always call Alpha and talk to the owner. I have been to the Alpha shop myself and they are first-rate customer service. The owner works in the back and is from Taiwan (or China) originally. His stringing machines are made in China but have excellent quality control and very reputable and reliable for many many years, backed by superior customer service. They have been in business for many many years and their store is well-kept, well-run. Eagnes is the opposite, touch and go, buyer beware. I own an Alpha Pioneer DC Plus and am comfortable paying 20% more over a similar Eagnas model.

 

[Rabbit]

Does it just come down to how much we are prepared to pay for pride of ownership versus just getting the job done?

Absolutely not. It comes down to the whole picture which is performance, reliability and customer service/ability to be repaired if there is a problem. Being left out there alone is probably not a good place to be.

 

[corners]

Eagnas may be deceptive but I'm not convinced they are knockoffs in the true sense of the word... My suspicion is that a single or a small set of OEMs make all of these machines and they customize slightly depending on the importer/customer.

I seriously doubt that Eagnas have a staff of mechanical engineers hard at work designing stringing machines. They are an importer. Alpha Racquet Sports too I believe is an importer with no in house design capability (they are the US importer of Stringway too?).

The difference I've observed is that Alpha has universally glowing and recommended customer service while Eagnas is the polar opposite. This enough is a reason to buy an Alpha stringer.

What I can't put my finger on is whether the Alpha machines are spec'd better (better hardware, tighter tolerances...). This happens all the time in the OEM/ODM space (lots of personal experience in the electronics industry). It's not unlike Walmart squeezing Vlasic for pennies on a jar of pickles and Vlasic cutting costs to the point the finer product wasn't even pickles technically (true story).

I understand a lot of this is conjecture but I'm seeing a lot of smoke.

I'll probably buy the Alpha Pioneer DC Plus or the Gamma X-6FC. It's really a shame that Kippermate only makes the one entey model. I would pay a serious premium (at least 15%) for a US made fixed clamp, drop weight, clutch machine with a lifetime warranty.

I think you're asking very good questions. The knee-jerk view seems to be that Eagnas are knockoffs, but I think your OEM/ODM perspective is a more sophisticated line of reasoning, and more likely to be nearer what is actually going on. Hopefully people that have owned both Alpha and Eagnas machines can chime in with substantive comparative info.

Now, even if they did come out of the same factor, were identical in every respect except paintjobs, is 20% extra cost worth excellent customer service vs. essentially no customer service at all?

 

[struggle]

to the OP:

personally, based on your approach, questions and responses i think you'd be fine with an eagnas. i always thought the challenger 1 looked to be adequate. the thing with eagnas is you won't have your hand held, make sure all is proper up front and go.

 

[rich s]

... Either Eagnas is really good at ripping off Alpha/gamma's entry stringers or they're all built by the same outfit using the same castings... I have over 25 years experience in contract manufacturing experience (mostly electronics and electronics packaging) and working in the supply chain... it would not surprise me one bit if all of these entry machine parts were built in the same factory in Shenzhen...

iPhones are made in the same Foxconn factory that makes a crapload of junk electronics.

What I've learned from working with the low cost geo suppliers is that one has to specify every detail and watch them like a hawk. Otherwise stainless steel hardware gets replaced with cheaper alternatives, tolerances become looser, counterfeit/black market components get used. You name it.

with your level/degree of pertinent experience..... with all your observations above ... given the number/variety of different machines that Eagnas offers at the prices they offer.....and the relatively higher number of complaints/issues with Eagnas machines (and customer service) you see on these boards..... do you think Eagnas is really watching their suppliers like a hawk?

my experience (including duration) with suppliers is similar to yours (although in a different field)... I couldn't spend the money on an Eagnas machine....

my $.02
rich

 

[eelhc]

with your level/degree of pertinent experience..... with all your observations above ... given the number/variety of different machines that Eagnas offers at the prices they offer.....and the relatively higher number of complaints/issues with Eagnas machines (and customer service) you see on these boards..... do you think Eagnas is really watching their suppliers like a hawk?

my experience (including duration) with suppliers is similar to yours (although in a different field)... I couldn't spend the money on an Eagnas machine....

my $.02
rich

Exactly... That's why I have said that I would pay a premium for the Alpha or the Gamma even if it's the same exact machine.

My original post + follow-ups is not a "what machine isbetter or which should I buy?" question. There's enough information in the forum and I know how to do a search... This is more of a "how does this industry/business work?" question. I'm just curious...

 

[Woolybugger]

even if Eagnas machines came off the same line and from the same factory, there are quality control issues. Eagnas may be very lax and just ship product with minor defects and let the customer eat it, whereas Alpha may reject it. The fact that a company stands by its product means it cannot afford to have too many defective parts out in the field lest it lose money servicing warranties.

 

[RiggensAuroraHO]

It is not the stringing machine which creates a good string job, but the stringer.

!00% true. But only about one out of 1000 are good stringers.

 

[mtommer]

There's enough information in the forum and I know how to do a search... This is more of a "how does this industry/business work?" question. I'm just curious...

My guess...

Stringing machines aren't exactly a profitable business. Few customers and few "repeat" buys due to machines breaking etc. If you're looking at the pictures and see identical moldings in every respect then I think it's safe bet that the machines are coming from the same source. Two different sources just aren't going to have the same molds unless multiple sources are contracted out. However, due to the low product runs that I'm willing to bet are the norm, then I doubt multiple contractors is the case.

The next question then is whether any differences exist between "like" models sold by different companies or not, and if so, why. Does overhead differ from one company to the next or is there a different/existing middleman, thereby requiring a markup? I think this is unlikely due to the very specialized nature of the product and the limited consumer base.

So then, if the purchase conditions are similar from one company to the next, why the differing prices? Is it just one person being "greedier" than another? Maybe but I doubt that as much. My gut tells me that Eagnes has gone to the various mfg's that make machines under other brand names and have contracted to have the reject parts made into full machines so they can resell them cheaper than the fully QC passed machines sold by other importers. Part of my reasoning from this comes from constant complaints seen here at times about Eagnes, needing their support and not getting anywhere, vs. others that just don't seem to generate nearly the same volume of complaints about the actual machines. Thus, "identical but bad machine" quality is evident in the comments and tells "the truth" about what is really going on.

 

[struggle]

!00% true. But only about one out of 1000 are good stringers.

how many thousands of stringers did you use in your sample set to reach your conclusion?

 

[gmatheis]

My guess...

Stringing machines aren't exactly a profitable business. Few customers and few "repeat" buys due to machines breaking etc. If you're looking at the pictures and see identical moldings in every respect then I think it's safe bet that the machines are coming from the same source. Two different sources just aren't going to have the same molds unless multiple sources are contracted out. However, due to the low product runs that I'm willing to bet are the norm, then I doubt multiple contractors is the case.

The next question then is whether any differences exist between "like" models sold by different companies or not, and if so, why. Does overhead differ from one company to the next or is there a different/existing middleman, thereby requiring a markup? I think this is unlikely due to the very specialized nature of the product and the limited consumer base.

So then, if the purchase conditions are similar from one company to the next, why the differing prices? Is it just one person being "greedier" than another? Maybe but I doubt that as much. My gut tells me that Eagnes has gone to the various mfg's that make machines under other brand names and have contracted to have the reject parts made into full machines so they can resell them cheaper than the fully QC passed machines sold by other importers. Part of my reasoning from this comes from constant complaints seen here at times about Eagnes, needing their support and not getting anywhere, vs. others that just don't seem to generate nearly the same volume of complaints about the actual machines. Thus, "identical but bad machine" quality is evident in the comments and tells "the truth" about what is really going on.

From everything I've read from people who had an eagnas and then upgraded to a gamma or something else they always said that the difference in quality was very apparent and that the new machine was often described as being built like a tank compared to their old Eagnas. Not that they were unhappy with the eagnas, just that the difference in quality was obvious.

This makes me think that the Eagnas machines are NOT made by the same manufacturer even though in pictures they look very similar. Eagnas wants people to see those pictures and think they are getting the same machine for cheaper.