Struggling to get racquet to drop on serve

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
here is a recent video of a couple serves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVPo3kmOZH4

I have been working on getting the racquet to drop down behind my back and just cannot seem to get it close to where it needs to be. Is this just a flexibility issue or what? How can I improve this area of my serve motion?

My serve is decent and consistent at my level (high 3.5/low 4.0) but it's really frustrating that I cannot seem to crack this lack of racquet drop problem. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!
 

musto9030

New User
Depending on how long you have been playing, your muscle memory may make it difficult to get the racket drop. You may want to try going out and hitting some serves by starting your racket in the dropped position. Basically, don't include the take back part of the motion. I think this may give you the feel of the racket drop and make it a little easier to transition your full service motion to including the racket drop.

Good luck!
 

psv255

Professional
Try holding the racquet loosely behind your head at about head/eye level so that the tip of the racquet points toward the left fence. Then, bend your knees and jump/push up. Don't swing the racquet, just get the feeling of it being pulled down relative to your body. Then, build up your usual swing and see if you can reproduce that feeling during the entire swing. Force yourself to relax the arm as much as you can, especially at the elbow.

Also did you ever check out this video? Good drill to connect arm and torso in the serve. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsJJ_BWBQcI
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Problem is one of stiff wrists during your takeback and whole motion.
Notice how some pros, like Vinci, but lots of ATP guys, face the hitting side of the racket 45 degrees UPWARDS and to the left, by bending their wrists.
That prebending of the wrist allows the wrist to flex back the other way, allowing the racket to really drop just after trophy position.
Sorry, it was JulesGoergeous...not Vinci. Notice how seemingly loose her wrist is, while holding onto the buttcap of the racket.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
Try holding the racquet loosely behind your head at about head/eye level so that the tip of the racquet points toward the left fence. Then, bend your knees and jump/push up. Don't swing the racquet, just get the feeling of it being pulled down relative to your body. Then, build up your usual swing and see if you can reproduce that feeling during the entire swing. Force yourself to relax the arm as much as you can, especially at the elbow.

do u have a video to demonstrate the above?
 

skiracer55

Hall of Fame
What they said...

...additionally, notice how your whole wrist opens, palm up to the sky, right before you want to get the racket drop. The racket will never drop if you open up like this. Think about keeping the knuckles pointed toward the sky and let the wrist bend sideways and to the left, instead of straight back...
 

skiracer55

Hall of Fame
Watch what Federer does...

...on his serve. You can almost think of it as "winding up" as opposed to dropping down or back. There are a lot of good parts to Fed's serve, but the way he gets wound up is what allows him to have easy, consistent power and spin, while directing the serve pretty much anywhere he wants...
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
...additionally, notice how your whole wrist opens, palm up to the sky, right before you want to get the racket drop. The racket will never drop if you open up like this. Think about keeping the knuckles pointed toward the sky and let the wrist bend sideways and to the left, instead of straight back...

I will try that. Thanks!

What I really need is for somone to show me the proper path the racquet should follow all the way through. I kind of get lost once I take it back and I'n not sure of the proper movements after a certain point.
 

RetroSpin

Hall of Fame
...additionally, notice how your whole wrist opens, palm up to the sky, right before you want to get the racket drop. The racket will never drop if you open up like this. Think about keeping the knuckles pointed toward the sky and let the wrist bend sideways and to the left, instead of straight back...

Bingo.

You want to drop the racquet so that the butt points up at the ball and the hoop is aligned perpendicularly to the baseline, kind of like you were going to use a hatchet to chop something above your head.
 
I will try that. Thanks!

What I really need is for somone to show me the proper path the racquet should follow all the way through. I kind of get lost once I take it back and I'n not sure of the proper movements after a certain point.

I've read a lot about this: The big thing is you really have to have a loose, relaxed arm. Too many, self included, worry about the toss too much which leads to tension in the hitting arm. You have to be so loose that you make the racket feel heavy.

There are couple cues I use: Once I get to the trophy position, it's almost as if I can feel the palm of my racket arm brush the back of my head. On the upswing, my hitting palm passes my ear (I call it being on the phone). This allows you to lead with the blade. At contact, I high-five the ball (hitting palm faces the ball).

If you can throw a football, you can do it. Think of throwing a football vertically, not so much forward.

Will Hamilton, Lisa Dodson, Jim McLennan and Ian Westerman go over all this stuff.

The main thing is removing tension in the arm. None of this works if your arm's not loose, like a whip. Grab your racket with two, three fingers. Go through the serve motion, slowly but continuously. That's how loose you have to be to get a good racket drop, IMO.
 
A

Attila_the_gorilla

Guest
I think if you bring back your toss closer above our head, then it will make you have a more upward swing toward the ball, which will make you bend your knees, arch your back and drop the racket behind you before swinging up. Like others said, relax your entire arm and try to feel the momentum of the racket. Don't hurt yourself though.

Even better, practice the motion without a ball.

You could maybe get one of these:

https://www.thetotalserve.com/

I've got it and it's very useful to let you feel how to use the momentum of your racket and maximize its range of motion.
 
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psv255

Professional
that would really help. thanks!

I felt that leg drive wasn't as effective as shoulder turn to make the racquet drop. Choking up on the racquet handle helped, and so did keeping the wrist from opening up (as you can see in the video). Remember to drive up with the elbow...it's almost like the racquet and elbow should be switching places.
 
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Cheetah

Hall of Fame
Two things working against you are your takeback and your trophy pose.

On the trophy pose I think your elbow is extended too much and is also too low. This tightens your arm.

On the takeback you have an outside to inside takeback. It would serve you better to have an inside to outside takeback. The way you do your takeback now puts the racquet behind you in a tight position which makes you almost stop and start again thus hampering a good drop.

Watch this video. This in to out takeback will set you up in a better trophy pose with a loser arm and better elbow position. From there the racquet is naturally on it's way to bending over allowing you to go up with a better drop.

In this video he imitates an outside to inside takeback and it looks exactly like yours. Then he demonstrates a better way to do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuIgTyh4aDs&t=53s
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
Two things working against you are your takeback and your trophy pose.

On the trophy pose I think your elbow is extended too much and is also too low. This tightens your arm.

On the takeback you have an outside to inside takeback. It would serve you better to have an inside to outside takeback. The way you do your takeback now puts the racquet behind you in a tight position which makes you almost stop and start again thus hampering a good drop.

Watch this video. This in to out takeback will set you up in a better trophy pose with a loser arm and better elbow position. From there the racquet is naturally on it's way to bending over allowing you to go up with a better drop.

In this video he imitates an outside to inside takeback and it looks exactly like yours. Then he demonstrates a better way to do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuIgTyh4aDs&t=53s

That's a great help. I'll work on that and see if it helps.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
Two things working against you are your takeback and your trophy pose.

On the trophy pose I think your elbow is extended too much and is also too low. This tightens your arm.

On the takeback you have an outside to inside takeback. It would serve you better to have an inside to outside takeback. The way you do your takeback now puts the racquet behind you in a tight position which makes you almost stop and start again thus hampering a good drop.

Watch this video. This in to out takeback will set you up in a better trophy pose with a loser arm and better elbow position. From there the racquet is naturally on it's way to bending over allowing you to go up with a better drop.

In this video he imitates an outside to inside takeback and it looks exactly like yours. Then he demonstrates a better way to do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuIgTyh4aDs&t=53s

I liked this video so much I went ahead and bought the whole serve course. Thanks again!
 

dunlop_fort_knox

Professional
i have a similar issue. trying to correct the waiter's tray. I've been experimenting. I think you let the racquet head get behind your back too much. and also elbow too low.

take a look at daniel brands motion. everything seems to happen "in front" (to the right) of him if you know what i mean. more so than a lot of other players I study. similar to stan smith. your right palm should be facing the right fence, but it also shouldn't get behind your head. it should be in a position where the head of the racquet is almost right behind the back of your head 45 degree angle. and keep the right elbow higher. that will give you more of a throwing motion. it feels unnatural at first. but it's more fluid. more power less effort.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
i have a similar issue. trying to correct the waiter's tray. I've been experimenting. I think you let the racquet head get behind your back too much. and also elbow too low.

take a look at daniel brands motion. everything seems to happen "in front" (to the right) of him if you know what i mean. more so than a lot of other players I study. similar to stan smith. your right palm should be facing the right fence, but it also shouldn't get behind your head. it should be in a position where the head of the racquet is almost right behind the back of your head 45 degree angle. and keep the right elbow higher. that will give you more of a throwing motion. it feels unnatural at first. but it's more fluid. more power less effort.

I am working on it. It's not an easy fix, but I'm willing to try.

Last night I changed my takeback from "out to in" to "in to out" and that seemed to really help. I may need some 1 on 1 sessions with a good teacher to really straighten this out. Problem is, my serve is adequate "as is" and I know if I tamper with it, I will take a few steps back before going forward.
 

RetroSpin

Hall of Fame
I am working on it. It's not an easy fix, but I'm willing to try.

Last night I changed my takeback from "out to in" to "in to out" and that seemed to really help. I may need some 1 on 1 sessions with a good teacher to really straighten this out. Problem is, my serve is adequate "as is" and I know if I tamper with it, I will take a few steps back before going forward.

I understand totally. Your serve is not at all bad, considering the awkward position you get in at the top. I was amazed that your balls seemed to be hitting the back fence on the bounce. I would have never thought that would be possible with that motion.

The problem is, your serve is decent for 3.5, but you are going to find it limiting as you progress. You need to bite the bullet and correct it now, rather than continue to groove a bad motion.
 

Jkramer

New User
here is a recent video of a couple serves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVPo3kmOZH4

I have been working on getting the racquet to drop down behind my back and just cannot seem to get it close to where it needs to be. Is this just a flexibility issue or what? How can I improve this area of my serve motion?

My serve is decent and consistent at my level (high 3.5/low 4.0) but it's really frustrating that I cannot seem to crack this lack of racquet drop problem. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!

The root of your problem starts right when you toss the ball.
1) At the end of the toss, weight should be on hind leg, which allow the upper body to point chest up to sky. You’re not
2) At end of toss, tossing arm should point up vertical, which allows chest up (or upper body falling backward angle, and to prevent falling backward, the hind leg is bent down to support automatically). You’re not
3) Only when you achieve 1&2, then during rising up (with chest point up to sky) allows the (loose) racket arm to fall back down, automatically WITHOUT TRYING TO DO SO!!!
 

WildVolley

Legend
Two things working against you are your takeback and your trophy pose.

On the trophy pose I think your elbow is extended too much and is also too low. This tightens your arm.

...

I agree with Cheetah. Your arm is too straight at trophy. You should shoot to have at least a 90 degree bend at the elbow or even an acute angle.

You are not as bad as guys who totally straight arm the serve, but you have a little of that problem going on.

Good luck.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
Thanks guys..... a few things I will try and implement immediately:

1) in to out takeback
2) higher elbow at trophy pose
3) point chest more upwards in trophy pose
4) tossing arm point more upward in trophy pose

Thanks guys! I will re-video when I think I have fixed these things somewhat.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
I understand totally. Your serve is not at all bad, considering the awkward position you get in at the top. I was amazed that your balls seemed to be hitting the back fence on the bounce. I would have never thought that would be possible with that motion.

The problem is, your serve is decent for 3.5, but you are going to find it limiting as you progress. You need to bite the bullet and correct it now, rather than continue to groove a bad motion.

My best serves hit about 3 feet up on the fence. My usual first serve hits right at the bottom of the back fence...slightly before or slightly after.

I agree, it will limit my success if I want to make it past low 4.0.
For 3.5, I usually serve better than about 75% of my opponents.
My saving grace is that I can place it very well and can hit the corners
almost at will. If someone has a bad backhand, I serve to it all day long...even on 2nd serves.
 

SmilinBob

Rookie
Another "easy" thing to try Jack, that may or may not help, given A) I'm not a teacher/coach and B) the position of your arm (particularly your elbow) and chest in your trophy pose. But one thing I focus on might be of help to you, which is how you grip the racquet.

First, a little exercise to illustrate what I want to highlight. Stick your right hand out like you're trying to shake hands with somebody, making sure your pinky is pointing down towards the ground and your thumb is up with your fingers relatively spread and hand relaxed. Now take your hand without moving your forearm and tilt your wrist up and down, toward the floor and your pinky, then back towards the sky and your thumb. You should notice a decent amount of movement. I can move my wrist somewhere around 120 degrees this way.

Now, do the same thing but this time make a tight fist with your thumb wrapped along your knuckles (like you're going to throw a punch). You'll notice a lot more tightness across the top of your thumb and whatever the heck that part of your hand is called. When I do that I lose somewhere between 30 and 45 degrees of motion compared to an open hand.

I hold the racquet with a relatively open hand, and my pinky finger is almost off the bottom of the butt cap. I spread my hand out with the first finger knuckle of my index finger on the grip bevel that corresponds with the face of the racquet. The loose wrist and open hand gives my wrist some flexibility and the knuckle on that part of the racquet gives my grip the stability that would be lacking otherwise.

Check your grip, spread it out a little bit, and let your wrist relax. Make your fingers go "up" the grip a bit instead of straight across, and the same with your thumb. In addition to better racquet drop, you might also notice the racquet tip snapping through a little faster on contact, which also makes it easier to hit a higher kicking serve. You can really attack the ball. It works for me and is one of the few serve "checks" I regularly give myself.


Again, my caveats above...Not a teacher/coach, and these other guys have lots of good stuff to say about your arm/elbow/chest/trophy positions. The grip is just an easy fix that can pay off without changing your motion. Give it a try.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
^^^^^^
thanks Bob.

I do think my grip is fine. I do grip loosely, with my fingers spread out and not straight accross. The key for me is to keep the arm, wrist and hand loose throuhout the motion.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
You might have solved your problem right there.
On serveds, hold with fingers together, hammer grip, and racket at a 45 degree to your forearm, NOT aligned. So racket is held across your hand, not aligned to the forearm.
 

Dave M

Hall of Fame
I would suggest putting your racquet away for a practice session and attempt to hit the ball over the net with your hand.
 

dunlop_fort_knox

Professional
I am working on it. It's not an easy fix, but I'm willing to try.

Last night I changed my takeback from "out to in" to "in to out" and that seemed to really help. I may need some 1 on 1 sessions with a good teacher to really straighten this out. Problem is, my serve is adequate "as is" and I know if I tamper with it, I will take a few steps back before going forward.

think of your right fist being close to the head. a bit behind it. just like it would be tossing a football around. And that racquet head tilting almost towards the back of your head at trophy position. I think it's well worth it to go backwards on the serve to build one that can take you to the next level. you have to take your ego out of it. you do get a lot of power now because you've got some physical strength.
 

RetroSpin

Hall of Fame
SmilinBob,

Great tip. The wrist movements you described are called radial deviation(the up move) and ulnar deviation ( the down move).
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Hammer grip allows your racket to be pointing at the ground while your elbow is up and leading the swing.
It's NOT the bending of the wrist that makes the position, but the grip.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
lately I have been trying to go from a "outside to inside" takeback, to a "inside to outside" takeback and I feel like it's helping my motion. But....I have been getting some soreness in my shoulder since switching. Could this be due to the new motion and why would this happen? I thought a "inside to outside" takeback is more technically correct?
 

Power Player

Bionic Poster
This thread is interesting. The serve - master is a little expensive, but it seems like a nice device that could help, and a great way to warm up as well. The sock thing is nice, but the serve master will make sure your grip is proper as well, which is super important.

The link put up by psv255 is a really good one. I followed that instruction plus the rafter 11-5 concept to really get the serve grooving, but I still lose the motion at times in matches, which is a killer.

When my serve is clean and flowing, I win most of my matches. It is that important to get it right because it not only gets you free points, but it also cranks up your confidence as well.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
This thread is interesting. The serve - master is a little expensive, but it seems like a nice device that could help, and a great way to warm up as well. The sock thing is nice, but the serve master will make sure your grip is proper as well, which is super important.

The link put up by psv255 is a really good one. I followed that instruction plus the rafter 11-5 concept to really get the serve grooving, but I still lose the motion at times in matches, which is a killer.

When my serve is clean and flowing, I win most of my matches. It is that important to get it right because it not only gets you free points, but it also cranks up your confidence as well.

I can do the sock thing easily with no problem. But it doesn't translate over to a real serve.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
Im not sure where I said that it did?

Why do you answer every question like you are on the witness stand being cross examined?

I was merely making a statement to everyone how in my case, it didn't help my actual serve. I never accused you of making any claims about the sock exercise.

Now the "Serve Master" I don't know anything about. I'm reading up on it now.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
I just checked out the Servemaster and it seems like a fancy version of the sock thing with a handle, so it probably won't help me. It would be a nice training tool, but not worth the asking price IMO.

I'll stick with the feeltennis videos/drills. There is no quick fix to my issue...it will be a slow process, but I won't give up!
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
Hey folks....still struggling with this issue as you can easily see at the beginning of the video....
http://youtu.be/Kr0MHpxUqY0

Can I ever fix this issue or should I just stick with what I have and except that this is my serve? It seems like I am missing a key transitional move to go from trophy pose to racquet drop. Is it a wrist move...an elbow move? What is something simple I can key in on and work on to ge the racquet dropping down?

I have tried the drill where you start from the drop position and hit serves, but then when I go back to full motion, I lose it again. I really need to take this slow and reconstruct my serve from the ground up. Please don't throw a bunch of different tips at me or lots or scientific verbage about muscles and ligaments...I need something practical I can use. Should I start by learning the throwing motion with a ball?

Thanks!
 
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psv255

Professional
Should I start by learning the throwing motion with a ball?

Yep, a slightly heavier/bigger ball like a football would be best probably. You need to get that elbow up and forward while the hand and racket stay put.
The kind of motion/exercise the Serve doctor shows in this vid at 50 and 61 seconds really gets you to feel the right motion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EFWB18kPWY#t=49
When swinging, you should be feeling the weight of the racket keeping your arm back as you're trying to throw the shoulder forward. hard to explain but that video above shows the exact motion.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Red hat trophies with arm almost straight, so bolo serve, ala JimmyConnor's overhead, and very little rackethead drop.
BEND YOUR ELBOWS to 90 degrees, hold the racket LOOSELY, and problem solved.
Hopefully.
 
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