Struggling to get racquet to drop on serve

Because Jeff Salzenstein sent me his newsletter e-mail, and it featured this question from a guy named Michael. I hope Jeff doesn't mind me posting this, as it isn't from his paid content.

Question: I have a question about the racket drop. Your
clips on Youtube all demonstrate that the racket drop is
important to serve with power.

My serve barely has the racket behind my head, sometimes
a little deeper. I can get into a pretty trophy position like you,
but I just cannot put the racket on my back WHEN I am tossing
the ball. If I do not toss the ball, I can swing the racket freely
and have a deep racket drop.


Is there any drill to make some an improvement on this? I am

nearly 50, in good fitness but flexibility might be issue.


What should I do to achieve a nice racket drop?


Just more practice?


-Michael


Answer: Wow. That's a great question about the serve and a
challenge that so many of you are having with your motion,
specifically how to make the racquet drop properly.

Let me address each part of Michael's question/comment
about the racquet drop.


"The racket drop is important to serve with power"

This so true.




You must have a good racquet drop to have power, and usually,
the quality of your racquet drop is determined by your ability to
relax and swing freely.

Too much tension and you won't have a racquet drop...period.
You must give up trying to control your swing and learn to swing
effortlessly, instead.

This is not easy for you if you who don't have a natural throwing
motion, you have too much tension as you grip the racquet, or
if you have the wrong grip (a forehand grip instead of a continental).


"I can get into a pretty trophy position like you, but I just
cannot put the racket on my back WHEN I am tossing the ball.
If I do not toss the ball, I can swing the racket freely and have
a deep racket drop."


The reason you don't have a good racquet drop with the ball in play
is that you're too focused on hitting the ball. Your body will go into
"survival mode" and do whatever it has to in order to make contact
with the ball using your old swing pattern.

You also resort to your old swing because you want to get the ball in.
Getting the ball in is more important than creating a new movement
pattern. That is why you can swing freely with a good racquet drop
without a ball.

You aren't "worried" about hitting the ball.

You're focusing on the racquet drop when the ball isn't a factor.

This is one of the biggest challenges when learning a new movement
pattern.

So, how do you break old habits and established new ones?


"Is there any drill to make some improvement on this?"

Yes, I have some suggestions that can really help.


First, continue to perform shadow swings where you feel the
racquet drop behind you.


But, you can take it a step further.

Perform these perfect swings with a great racquet drop with your

eyes closed. Closing your eyes will help you tap into the "feeling"
that you want to create when you start hitting the ball.


The other thing that I want you to do is to lower your grip so that
you have the pinky and ring finger off of the racquet. You'll

loosely hold the racquet with your thumb, middle finger, and
index finger.


The racquet should feel like it's dangling, but make sure it's not
so loose that it flies out of your hand when you swing. Lowering
your hand on the grip will teach you to let the racquet swing more
freely and let you feel that racquet drop.

Swing this way several times to get the feeling. Then, choke up a
little to your normal position, and try to feel that same relaxation with
the racquet drop when hitting the ball.

But that's not all.

One of my favorite drills/concepts to improve serve technique including

the racquet drop is serving into a fence. That's right...turn and face

the side or back fence being aware of not serving into the sun.



Practice serving into the fence.

When you do this, you stop focusing on where the ball goes, and
you put more of your attention on the new technique (in this
case the racquet drop).

Serving into the fence can be the learning progression that you use
after performing shadow swings and before attempting to use your
new technique while hitting the ball over the net. To establish new
habit with a better racquet drop, I would serve A LOT into the fence
until this new feeling gets totally ingrained.

Want to take this another step further?

If you still can't get the racquet drop while serving into the fence,
I want you to try this....

Toss the ball in the air and swing and miss the ball.

That's right.

Swing and miss....

...with the goal of making sure the racquet drop happens.

You see, the ball gets in the way of things again. Your body just
wants to hit the ball the way you're used to doing it.

It takes courage, discipline, and a leap of faith to give up control
and miss a lot of serves until you get the feeling of the new way of
swinging the racquet.

Shadow swings with the eyes closed, swinging in o the fence, and
the swing and miss drill are all great strategies to help you transform our bad racquet drop into a good one.

"I am nearly 50, in good fitness but flexibility might be issue."

Flexibility could be an issue as you age if you haven't been working
on it over the years. However, if you feel you can get into a good
racquet drop without the ball in play, then it's is probably not flexibility
that will solve the issue. Most likely, it's having the ability to swing
effortlessly when you want to hit the ball. Work on your flexibility,
but focus more on the drills I outlined above to develop that awesome
racquet drop.

Good luck!
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
^^^^^^

yes I saw that too today in my email and it was scary how much that sounded like me. I guess me and Michael should work together on this? :)

Salzenstein had a few interesting ideas. I tried the dry swings with the bottom 2 fingers off the grip and it does help you feel the drop more. I also tried closing my eyes and focusing on the drop feeling and I'm not sure if that helps much? Serving into a wall or fence is a good idea because it takes away the desire to control the ball and hit it into the box. This Michael guy has the SAME EXACT problem as me where he has a nice drop on shadow swings but tenses up on live ball swings.

Tomaz looked at my racquet toss into the air and said the motion looked very good. He has an interesting idea to use a racquet without strings and toss the ball and swing as if hitting the ball with the open racquet. He also said to try tossing the ball and then throwing the racquet through the ball.

I have recently felt like I am making some real progress here with my racquet drop. I can feel it getting better all the time. Its certainly better than it was 2 months ago. I am starting to learn how to relax on my serve and my real serve is getting closer to the shadow swing serve. I just have to keep at it, little by little.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Have you focused on dragging the racket to the contact? This seems to really help me on serve to really focus on pulling the handle strongly up dragging the stick up to whip it into the ball, instead of torqing the head of the racket to contact.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
Have you focused on dragging the racket to the contact? This seems to really help me on serve to really focus on pulling the handle strongly up dragging the stick up to whip it into the ball, instead of torqing the head of the racket to contact.

How exactly do u focus on "dragging the racquet into contact"?

When I practice serving from the dropped position, I can focus on pulling the handle upwards into contact. Is that what you mean?
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
How exactly do u focus on "dragging the racquet into contact"?

When I practice serving from the dropped position, I can focus on pulling the handle upwards into contact. Is that what you mean?
Yes, that feeling of pulling to get it moving, to whip it over the top.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
Well I did as Tomaz recommended...I did a racquet throw and then I did one with a ball and a racquet without strings...both had a good racquet drop to them.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
JackB1, the service motion is NOT throwing the racket up, it's throwing the racket out with a long distance UP factor.
Like throwing a football for distance, or a javelin, angle is a little lower then 45 degrees.
You are not trying a twist serve right now, but a basic flat/slice/slight topspin serve.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
JackB1, the service motion is NOT throwing the racket up, it's throwing the racket out with a long distance UP factor.
Like throwing a football for distance, or a javelin, angle is a little lower then 45 degrees.
You are not trying a twist serve right now, but a basic flat/slice/slight topspin serve.

got it. up and out.
 

JohnTN

New User
Jack,

When I try to view your videos I get a black box that says "Private Video" instead of your video. I am able to view all the instructional YouTube videos but not yours.

I don't know if this is a problem with my browser setup or a problem with how you are posting your videos. Apparently most everyone else is able to view them since you are getting comments on them.

John
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
Jack,

When I try to view your videos I get a black box that says "Private Video" instead of your video. I am able to view all the instructional YouTube videos but not yours.

I don't know if this is a problem with my browser setup or a problem with how you are posting your videos. Apparently most everyone else is able to view them since you are getting comments on them.

John

Just send me an email through my profile and I'll send you links to the videos.
I may have changed them.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
In my latest email to Tomaz, I asked him to explain why I get a nice drop when I do a practice, dry swing without the ball and then when I swing with a ball, I lose the drop. He said,
the main difference is that without the ball I am not accelerating and with the ball I am. When I accelerate, I tense up and arm cannot drop that much.

I am not sure this is true about the acceleration, but I agree about the tensing up part. I am pretty sure I am accelerating when I do a dry swing or when I do the racquet toss into the air. I believe it's more of a tension issue and that when I see the ball, I have an involuntary need to hit it and that causes the tension. He wants me to work on bringing my practice swing and live ball swing closer together, by accelerating more with the practice swing and less with the live swing. I will give this a try, but I am not sure if it will help.

I have to figure out a way to get the tension out of my swing and not fire the muscles too early. When I watch other Pro's videos of their serves, they all seem to "fire" and accelerate right after trophy position...and yet they are able to do so and still get the racquet to drop down their back.

I seem to be able to get a good drop when I do EVERYTHING BUT a live serve: racquet toss in the air, dry swings without the ball, slow swings, etc. But when I speed it up, it falls apart again. Maybe I just need to keep at it and realize it will take a looooong time to fix. I picked up some practice foam balls that are soft and don't go very far. I am going to try practicing with them and see how that goes.
 
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Power Player

Bionic Poster
Stop caring and thinking about it so much and just keep playing. You are forcing it big time.

A lot of things click in life when you stop caring so much.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
Stop caring and thinking about it so much and just keep playing. You are forcing it big time.

A lot of things click in life when you stop caring so much.

How am I supposed to work on improving my serve without "thinking or caring"?
I never thought about my serve before and this is where it ended up. If I "just keep playing" as you say, my serve won't magically fix itself. It will stay right where it is.

I am just not sure how to apply your advice? Of course I "care" about getting better or I wouldn't have bothered with this in the first place. I agree about not thinking when you are playing.
 

Power Player

Bionic Poster
How am I supposed to work on improving my serve without "thinking or caring"?
I never thought about my serve before and this is where it ended up. If I "just keep playing" as you say, my serve won't magically fix itself. It will stay right where it is.

I am just not sure how to apply your advice? Of course I "care" about getting better or I wouldn't have bothered with this in the first place. I agree about not thinking when you are playing.

Thats not the point at all man. Even this post you made is just way too much thinking.

You know what to do now and what to fix - correct?

Ok. Stop pressuring yourself over it and just relax. It won't happen overnight and you are trying to fast track the process.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
Thats not the point at all man. Even this post you made is just way too much thinking.

You know what to do now and what to fix - correct?

Ok. Stop pressuring yourself over it and just relax. It won't happen overnight and you are trying to fast track the process.

That may be true. It feels like I've been working on this a while, but it's only been 6 weeks. I would just like to see more progress by now. Sometimes I feel like I should just use what I got and not worry about restructuring my serve.
It gets very frustrating sometimes.
 

Power Player

Bionic Poster
If it ever stops raining again I will film mine.

I was forcing the drop for a long time, and now that I don't, everything has gotten fluid and easy.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
If it ever stops raining again I will film mine.

I was forcing the drop for a long time, and now that I don't, everything has gotten fluid and easy.

But until you get it down naturally, you have to kind of "force it".
Otherwise it will just go back to my old (terrible) serve, where I wasn't thinking
or forcing anything.

You probably already had a decent drop before you stopped thinking about it and just needed to let it go.
My situation is probably quite different. You needed a tweak. I need major overhaul :)
 

WildVolley

Legend
But until you get it down naturally, you have to kind of "force it".
Otherwise it will just go back to my old (terrible) serve, where I wasn't thinking
or forcing anything.

You probably already had a decent drop before you stopped thinking about it and just needed to let it go.
My situation is probably quite different. You needed a tweak. I need major overhaul :)

When you are learning a tennis stroke you shouldn't be concerned at all if your form is forced (if it hurts, then of course back-off) or feels unnatural - and this is especially true if you have serious form problems.

I get tired of players who have been playing a long time telling others that if you just relax and don't think about it you'll hit correctly. For most people, that simply isn't true!

When I serve, I mostly just think about the target and perhaps the toss. But that wasn't the case when I was first taking lessons. That's the result of probably tens of thousands of serves over the years. And even today, I should probably think about form more.
 

Power Player

Bionic Poster
When you are learning a tennis stroke you shouldn't be concerned at all if your form is forced (if it hurts, then of course back-off) or feels unnatural - and this is especially true if you have serious form problems.

I get tired of players who have been playing a long time telling others that if you just relax and don't think about it you'll hit correctly. For most people, that simply isn't true!

When I serve, I mostly just think about the target and perhaps the toss. But that wasn't the case when I was first taking lessons. That's the result of probably tens of thousands of serves over the years. And even today, I should probably think about form more.

Nobody is saying that. There is a difference between over thinking and forcing things and just slowly rebuilding your serve.

You just said its a result of 10s of thousands of serves over the years. Jack has been at it 6 weeks.

You basically proved my point.

The way around this is to find some serve bulletpoints to work on. For me it was focusing on the toss, my take back and my feet. I got to narrow it down to "toss, Step - hit" in my head.

So not a lot of thought there, but I am making sure to do the proper steps each time.
 

WildVolley

Legend
You just said its a result of 10s of thousands of serves over the years. Jack has been at it 6 weeks.

You basically proved my point.

Yeah, if you're telling Jack to just stop looking for "this one weird trick..." and get back to practicing, it is good advice.

The way around this is to find some serve bulletpoints to work on. For me it was focusing on the toss, my take back and my feet. I got to narrow it down to "toss, Step - hit" in my head.

So not a lot of thought there, but I am making sure to do the proper steps each time.

He's on the right track by using video to see that he's maintaining form. It is just going to take him more time to break the old pattern. It is looking better when shadow swinging, he just needs to get that to transfer over when hitting a live ball.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
Guys...I realize it's going to take time, believe me. Yes I will keep practicing and working on it. I know there is no one "trick" to cure it. I am just trying to find what helps the most.

Last night I watched slomo video of my practice swing followed by a serve with a live ball and something really stood out to me. With my practice swing, I am not opening the palm to the sky (aka Waiter Tray) when I start the drop. With the live ball, I do open the palm and this seems to immediately "block" the racquet from dropping anymore. This one move really seems to be the key to the whole thing. Look at the video and tell me if you agree...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1hLWt7v6DA

So now that I seem to have isolated the problem...how best do I work on fixing it?
 
Guys...I realize it's going to take time, believe me. Yes I will keep practicing and working on it. I know there is no one "trick" to cure it. I am just trying to find what helps the most.

Last night I watched slomo video of my practice swing followed by a serve with a live ball and something really stood out to me. With my practice swing, I am not opening the palm to the sky (aka Waiter Tray) when I start the drop. With the live ball, I do open the palm and this seems to immediately "block" the racquet from dropping anymore. This one move really seems to be the key to the whole thing. Look at the video and tell me if you agree...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1hLWt7v6DA

So now that I seem to have isolated the problem...how best do I work on fixing it?

Tomaz already gave some solutions to that. Try hitting the ball with the edge of the racquet and then slowly graduate towards hitting mainly slice serves at first to get the right edge on approach to the ball.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
Tomaz already gave some solutions to that. Try hitting the ball with the edge of the racquet and then slowly graduate towards hitting mainly slice serves at first to get the right edge on approach to the ball.

good suggestion......thanks.
 

RetroSpin

Hall of Fame
Guys...I realize it's going to take time, believe me. Yes I will keep practicing and working on it. I know there is no one "trick" to cure it. I am just trying to find what helps the most.

Last night I watched slomo video of my practice swing followed by a serve with a live ball and something really stood out to me. With my practice swing, I am not opening the palm to the sky (aka Waiter Tray) when I start the drop. With the live ball, I do open the palm and this seems to immediately "block" the racquet from dropping anymore. This one move really seems to be the key to the whole thing. Look at the video and tell me if you agree...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1hLWt7v6DA

So now that I seem to have isolated the problem...how best do I work on fixing it?

Do what LeeD, tomaz, SmilinBob et al have told you. You are still overly concerned about where the ball is going versus where the racquet is going. So you shortarm the drop. Technically, i think you need to relax your wrist to let the racquet get into a deeper or more vertical position. Then you have to swing up and across rather than trying to guide it into the court.

A good drill is to try to hit the back fence on the fly. You should be able to hit it on the fly from your knees.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
Did a quick video today at lunchtime (hence the jeans I'm wearing) of a practice swing followed by a live ball swing and am I crazy or is the racquet drop looking better? Just got to keep working on it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6HjVMwnMJc

I'm trying not to open up the palm too soon and it seems to be working. It looks like the instant the palm opens up to the sky, the drop stops right there.
 
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WildVolley

Legend
Did a quick video today at lunchtime (hence the jeans I'm wearing) of a practice swing followed by a live ball swing and am I crazy or is the racquet drop looking better? Just got to keep working on it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6HjVMwnMJc

I'm trying not to open up the palm too soon and it seems to be working. It looks like the instant the palm opens up to the sky, the drop stops right there.

It does look better, the drop is starting to get a little deeper.

There still seems to be a little bit of a timing/acceleration difference between the shadow swing and the live ball swing. In the live ball swing you seem to pause longer in trophy and give yourself less time to go into the drop. Try to flow through trophy at the same speed on the live ball drill as with the shadow swing. Perhaps do a mental count in both cases and keep the acceleration pattern the same.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
It does look better, the drop is starting to get a little deeper.

There still seems to be a little bit of a timing/acceleration difference between the shadow swing and the live ball swing. In the live ball swing you seem to pause longer in trophy and give yourself less time to go into the drop. Try to flow through trophy at the same speed on the live ball drill as with the shadow swing. Perhaps do a mental count in both cases and keep the acceleration pattern the same.

That's because I am tossing high with the live ball swing so I have more time get drop the racquet. But I will try and get the timing closer on both.
 

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
That's because I am tossing high with the live ball swing so I have more time get drop the racquet. But I will try and get the timing closer on both.

even though you give yourself more time, you're not actually getting a deeper racquet drop because you pause and stop before that point. in your dry swing, you get the racquet drop but with the live ball you get apprehensive with your motion.

looks to me like you're afraid to let the racquet head get too far from the ball fearing that you won't have enough time to get the racquet up to the ball.
 
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JackB1

G.O.A.T.
even though you give yourself more time, you're not actually getting a deeper racquet drop because you pause and stop before that point. in your dry swing, you get the racquet drop but with the live ball you get apprehensive with your motion.

looks to me like you're afraid to let the racquet head get too far from the ball fearing that you won't have enough time to get the racquet up to the ball.

I didn't see any pause in my hitting arm??? I just went back and rewatched it.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
Hey guys...did a new slowmo video today where I do a couple practice dry swings and then toss a live ball in, trying to get the same drop. Its definitely better than it was 2 months ago.

Any comments about what I can do to squeeze out a little deeper racquet drop? It looks like I may be opening my right palm too soon? Also, should my right hand be closer to my right ear when it goes behind my head? Any pointers would be appreciated. Please don't comment on other parts of my serve that need work...I know there are many issues :) I am just trying to focus on the racquet drop at this point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGaP5U1Zydo

for comparison...here was my serve 2 years ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt6-DtQBaQA
 
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Ever tried the Pete Sampras drill? Toss the ball directly over your head and hit the serve with some topspin over the far baseline. After a few of these, move the toss a foot or two forward and hit the same topspin serve into the box. Change nothing except the toss and the angle of your strings.
 

taurussable

Professional
Ever tried the Pete Sampras drill? Toss the ball directly over your head and hit the serve with some topspin over the far baseline. After a few of these, move the toss a foot or two forward and hit the same topspin serve into the box. Change nothing except the toss and the angle of your strings.

interesting drill. How did you know about it? any more details on the internet regarding this drill?
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
Ever tried the Pete Sampras drill? Toss the ball directly over your head and hit the serve with some topspin over the far baseline. After a few of these, move the toss a foot or two forward and hit the same topspin serve into the box. Change nothing except the toss and the angle of your strings.

Never tried. But since I don't use a topspin/kick serve, would this drill still be helpful for me?
 
Never tried. But since I don't use a topspin/kick serve, would this drill still be helpful for me?

Do you hit a topslice serve? Either way, I don't think it matters. Try it and if you feel it isn't right for you, don't do it again. I think it may help though. And thanks PP!
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
Tomaz has released a new video that summarizes everything he knows about improving the racquet drop in the serve. You can see it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8n_VUx8fbA
He even uses me as an example in the video. He talks about
many of the drills we have been working on together in the past couple months. I think its very helpful if anyone else has a similar issue as I do. What has worked the best for me, is to do the continuous dry swing drill every day at home and then to do the "dangle serve" drill and also the one where you mix together a dry swing and a live ball. I am making slow progress, but I am still moving in the right direction. If I can just get a little deeper in my drop, I will be ready to move and and work on the next thing...more upward motion when going after the ball.
 

RajS

Semi-Pro
I've heard of it from a few different places. Some of my opponents have hit the first couple warmup serves very long for this purpose. I do it too. Here's one of them. It's buried under "Hit Up." http://tennisone.com/club/lessons/jm/sampras_serve/pete.php

That's a great drill, thanks TS. I will give it a shot before my singles match tomorrow.

On a related topic, I found out why my serve and forehand broke down recently. I was consciously trying to attain those ephemeral positions that happen during the swing, instead of letting them happen automatically. Jeeze, who woulda thought that over analyzing slow motion videos could be dangerous! Anyway, another lesson learned...
 

bradsm01

Semi-Pro
Looking good Jack. I better keep ducking you since you'll be kicking my butt all over the court soon. See you at the Enclave this Tuesday night? I am all booked up with doctor's appt all week except for Thursday.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
Looking good Jack. I better keep ducking you since you'll be kicking my butt all over the court soon. See you at the Enclave this Tuesday night? I am all booked up with doctor's appt all week except for Thursday.

Thanks. Yes I will probably be there Tues nite.
 

mbm0912

Hall of Fame
Tomaz has released a new video that summarizes everything he knows about improving the racquet drop in the serve. You can see it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8n_VUx8fbA
He even uses me as an example in the video. He talks about
many of the drills we have been working on together in the past couple months. I think its very helpful if anyone else has a similar issue as I do. What has worked the best for me, is to do the continuous dry swing drill every day at home and then to do the "dangle serve" drill and also the one where you mix together a dry swing and a live ball. I am making slow progress, but I am still moving in the right direction. If I can just get a little deeper in my drop, I will be ready to move and and work on the next thing...more upward motion when going after the ball.

Nice video. I'll try some of these.
 
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