Struggling to get racquet to drop on serve

Power Player

Bionic Poster
Yes exactly. Thats the point. Just serve slow for a while. I think you are rushing it and going back into your old motion.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
You still kinda cheat up from the backscratch position. Try to right from that position to hitting the ball - you have a mini hitch where you cheat back more towards your old form...
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
You still kinda cheat up from the backscratch position. Try to right from that position to hitting the ball - you have a mini hitch where you cheat back more towards your old form...

Can u explain more what you are saying? Not sure I understand.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
Can u explain more what you are saying? Not sure I understand.

Its a hitch. When you start from the racquet drop position you are supposed to go from that to contact in one smooth motion. You are starting there - going back to your normal halfway spot right when the ball is tossed. Then going to hit the ball.. So the longer swing is essentially nullified... Its hard to find a video of this because the backscratch or racquet drop position is just a drill. When you actually serve its not a static position at all. But here is a video of Coach Kryil using it.. He actually does a little of what you do but not the same extent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqUDzYl2IJg
 

toly

Hall of Fame
JackB1+%2526+Tomas+Forearm+supination.png


Your racquet is behind the back, but Tomas racquet is on the right side of the body. You must apply forearm supination!!!!!
 

toly

Hall of Fame
Front+of+the+forearm.png


Pros+Serves+-+Front+of+the+forearms+are+almost+vertical.png


Pros Serves - Front of the forearms are almost vertical, but JackB1 keeps it horizontal and this is very big mistake. :shock:
 
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toly

Hall of Fame
This is Federer front of the forearm before and after forearm supination (racquet drop). The proper forearm supination can help to provide maximum racquet drop!!! :shock:

Federer+front+of+the+forearm+before+and+after+forearm+supination.png
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
Its a hitch. When you start from the racquet drop position you are supposed to go from that to contact in one smooth motion. You are starting there - going back to your normal halfway spot right when the ball is tossed. Then going to hit the ball.. So the longer swing is essentially nullified... Its hard to find a video of this because the backscratch or racquet drop position is just a drill. When you actually serve its not a static position at all. But here is a video of Coach Kryil using it.. He actually does a little of what you do but not the same extent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqUDzYl2IJg

OK now I understand. When I do the "dangle serve", I need to watch that the racquet doesn't move before I go up after the ball. Thanks, I'll work on that.
 
Jack, it's probably worth checking if you have full range of motion in terms of wrist extension, forearm supination, and ESR. No need to think about these things when practicing though.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
Yes, Tomaz does. I just cannot understand why you don’t want to use forearm supination???:confused:

Whoever said anything about that? I don't even know what you are talking about? Nobody hits a serve actively thinking about forearm supination.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
Whoever said anything about that? I don't even know what you are talking about? Nobody hits a serve actively thinking about forearm supination.

Who is this nobody? Let me tell you about my coach.. He is/was teaching me a modern forehand. And he didn't like how my wrist still extended on my finish.

I told him - hey I don't want to think about that - it supposed to be natural. He told me to just do it - go ahead and force it to finish the right way..

You seem very resistant to this idea - but if you know you need to supinate some to get the full drop - why is the harm is just actively doing this..

Yes is true once you know how to serve - you don't have to think about it. But as a learning exercise - it might work. I have a good feeling my coach would flat out make you do it..

In a nutshell this is kinda what Tomaz is telling you although he is super slick about it, IMHO. If you want racquet drop - well make your racquet drop.. Yeah it might not be smooth and fluid at first but you can teach your body how to incorporate this into your serve..

Think of it like a basketball jump shot. It's true no pro player thinks hey I got to snap that wrist on my J. But all of them do - and I remember learning to actively do that when I was a kid..

I fail to see the harm. This natural stuff gets blown way out of proportion here..
 

toly

Hall of Fame
Whoever said anything about that? I don't even know what you are talking about? Nobody hits a serve actively thinking about forearm supination.

This my old post in your previous thread about serve.

Rotate the forearm (forearm supination) according to the red arrow, see pic.1, until you reach the position #2 in pic.2.

The forearm supination is very easy motion, so you shouldn’t have any problem. Good luck. :)

14b2l2u.jpg
 
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taurussable

Professional
Who is this nobody? Let me tell you about my coach.. He is/was teaching me a modern forehand. And he didn't like how my wrist still extended on my finish.

I told him - hey I don't want to think about that - it supposed to be natural. He told me to just do it - go ahead and force it to finish the right way..

You seem very resistant to this idea - but if you know you need to supinate some to get the full drop - why is the harm is just actively doing this..

Yes is true once you know how to serve - you don't have to think about it. But as a learning exercise - it might work. I have a good feeling my coach would flat out make you do it..

In a nutshell this is kinda what Tomaz is telling you although he is super slick about it, IMHO. If you want racquet drop - well make your racquet drop.. Yeah it might not be smooth and fluid at first but you can teach your body how to incorporate this into your serve..

Think of it like a basketball jump shot. It's true no pro player thinks hey I got to snap that wrist on my J. But all of them do - and I remember learning to actively do that when I was a kid..

I fail to see the harm. This natural stuff gets blown way out of proportion here..

have to agree with this one: when I want to fix something I first over do it otherwise it is hard to fix. Over time it will be second nature and naturally correct.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
Toly, I am not purposely trying or not trying to do anything. I am just trying to keep it simple right now.
I will try to rotate my arm more clockwise during the drop.
 

toly

Hall of Fame
Toly, I am not purposely trying or not trying to do anything. I am just trying to keep it simple right now.
I will try to rotate my arm more clockwise during the drop.

It should be forearm, not arm. You already can do very good clockwise rotation of the upper arm, so just add some forearm supination to create max racquet drop. It is really very easy and simple motion.
 

Dimcorner

Professional
Jack, I do think you have to actively think about it for the first few times (actually first few hundred times :) ). I'm still tweaking my serves and if I mentally go thru a checklist of things I want to accomplish in my serve it usually turns out much better than if I just go buck wild and swing at it.

Some parts are second nature and I don't add to my checklist such as "Bend knees" and "racquet drop" since they are second nature to me by now, but if I do have to remind myself to "twist forearm a little more" to get a good amount of pop and "hit upward" to clear the net. With a mental checklist I have been able to up my first serve percentage to about 60-70% during practice and have added a little more pace and spin to my second serves.

Wife starts work next Monday so I'll let you know if my weekend is free to hit. I'm going to try to build a fence mount for the camera to get a better angle :). If you are willing to drive to my location I would have an easier time selling the practice idea to the wife :D
 
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JonC

Banned
The racket drop comes from the the upward movement of the body - while the arm is completely relaxed. If your shoulder is not real flexible, you're not rotating the torso back, you're doing the waiter carry thing (palm facing up), or you're not getting your legs involved - you won't get great racket drop. I would never concentrate on racket drop personally but instead, always concentrate on the things you would normally do to throw your racket as high in the air as possible (with a wrist snap).

You're video is saying "private" btw.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
Jack, I do think you have to actively think about it for the first few times (actually first few hundred times :) ). I'm still tweaking my serves and if I mentally go thru a checklist of things I want to accomplish in my serve it usually turns out much better than if I just go buck wild and swing at it.

Some parts are second nature and I don't add to my checklist such as "Bend knees" and "racquet drop" since they are second nature to me by now, but if I do have to remind myself to "twist forearm a little more" to get a good amount of pop and "hit upward" to clear the net. With a mental checklist I have been able to up my first serve percentage to about 60-70% during practice and have added a little more pace and spin to my second serves.

Wife starts work next Monday so I'll let you know if my weekend is free to hit. I'm going to try to build a fence mount for the camera to get a better angle :). If you are willing to drive to my location I would have an easier time selling the practice idea to the wife :D

Sure I could come to Norcross if I am available. Fence mount should be fairly easy to figure out. Could you possbly rig up a single legged tripod and stick the leg through a hole in the fence?

About the supinating of the forearm....when exactly am I doing that?
 

Dimcorner

Professional
Sure I could come to Norcross if I am available. Fence mount should be fairly easy to figure out. Could you possbly rig up a single legged tripod and stick the leg through a hole in the fence?

About the supinating of the forearm....when exactly am I doing that?

We will take slow motion footage on a few angles to break it down. From the last time I was watching you dry swing it looked ok, but I think once you start tossing balls into equation you tense up a bit and the racquet doesn't lag and drop as much as if you dry swing. Again I think the slow motion video will help pinpoint it easier. We can even use color tape to put on a few points in your arm/shoulder to spot easier. I have lime green and the blue painter's tape :)
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
We will take slow motion footage on a few angles to break it down. From the last time I was watching you dry swing it looked ok, but I think once you start tossing balls into equation you tense up a bit and the racquet doesn't lag and drop as much as if you dry swing. Again I think the slow motion video will help pinpoint it easier. We can even use color tape to put on a few points in your arm/shoulder to spot easier. I have lime green and the blue painter's tape :)

I just sent you (email) a slowmo video I did the other day of a dry swing with a friend's camera. You won't believe how nice and fluid the racquet drop is. I was shocked when I saw it :)
 

WildVolley

Legend
Sure I could come to Norcross if I am available. Fence mount should be fairly easy to figure out. Could you possbly rig up a single legged tripod and stick the leg through a hole in the fence?

About the supinating of the forearm....when exactly am I doing that?

The supinating should mostly be done passively in the drop but if you're too tense then it perhaps isn't happening sufficiently.

If you think of holding your hand level in front of you and then turning thumb-up, that is supinating the forearm. I think that Toly wants you to relax and do that in the drop. Because your hand will be backward over your shoulder, think of turning your thumb down toward the ground during the drop with your forearm.

My perspective is that you should do this in slow motion and consciously a few times before you try to relax and let it happen. You know that you have a faulty acceleration pattern built in that you are starting to break. Your old habit was to yank really hard on the handle and stiffen up while not letting the racket drop. What you want to do is let the racket drop more and the forearm is going to have to supinate actively or passively to let it get down so that you have a longer and straighter acceleration path up into the ball.

Still looks like you're improving so keep at it.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
The supinating should mostly be done passively in the drop but if you're too tense then it perhaps isn't happening sufficiently.

If you think of holding your hand level in front of you and then turning thumb-up, that is supinating the forearm. I think that Toly wants you to relax and do that in the drop. Because your hand will be backward over your shoulder, think of turning your thumb down toward the ground during the drop with your forearm.

My perspective is that you should do this in slow motion and consciously a few times before you try to relax and let it happen. You know that you have a faulty acceleration pattern built in that you are starting to break. Your old habit was to yank really hard on the handle and stiffen up while not letting the racket drop. What you want to do is let the racket drop more and the forearm is going to have to supinate actively or passively to let it get down so that you have a longer and straighter acceleration path up into the ball.

Still looks like you're improving so keep at it.

Thanks. I'll give it a try.
 

Dimcorner

Professional
I just sent you (email) a slowmo video I did the other day of a dry swing with a friend's camera. You won't believe how nice and fluid the racquet drop is. I was shocked when I saw it :)

Yup, looks pretty nice. I do think that once you add a ball to the equation you tense up because now your timing is dependent on the ball path so you tense up in anticipation of the timing.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
The racket drop comes from the the upward movement of the body - while the arm is completely relaxed. If your shoulder is not real flexible, you're not rotating the torso back, you're doing the waiter carry thing (palm facing up), or you're not getting your legs involved - you won't get great racket drop. I would never concentrate on racket drop personally but instead, always concentrate on the things you would normally do to throw your racket as high in the air as possible (with a wrist snap).

I'm not sure if this is 100% true? I see people at my level serve that have a nice racquet drop, but they serve completely flat footed with zero lift or upward movement. True the upward push will assist the drop, since they are two energy forces going in opposite directions, but I am not sure if one causes the other.

Also, lets says I do have limited flexibility in the shoulder...what do I do?

I tried your idea of only focusing on the upward push and it did not get me a racquet drop.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Hold racket at 90 degrees to your forearm, like a hammer grip.
That gives you a racket pointing straight down at the ground when your forearm is horizontal.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
Hold racket at 90 degrees to your forearm, like a hammer grip.
That gives you a racket pointing straight down at the ground when your forearm is horizontal.

I tried serving with a "hammer" grip and it feels very awkward. I have been trying something in between a pistol and hammer grip, where my index finger is only a little seperated and
the rest of my hand is not as spread out.
 

Dimcorner

Professional
I recently tried the hammer grip and initially the grip felt weird BUT couldn't argue with results. Much easier power and spin. Consistency went up a little too
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Don't matter what the pros do, they have good racket drop going from the trophy position.
YOU don't, so have to get that 90 degree angle between forearm and the length of the racket, and after you get it, you can use any grip you want.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
Don't matter what the pros do, they have good racket drop going from the trophy position.
YOU don't, so have to get that 90 degree angle between forearm and the length of the racket, and after you get it, you can use any grip you want.

My point was, sure I can use a hammer grip, but then I might lose something at impact. My overall objective here is to gain some MPHs on my serve, so I don't want to gain more racquet drop, but lose overall serve speed.

I will keep trying it though and see if it helps.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
I see your point, but almost EVERY single good server starts with a racket to forearm angle around 45-70 degrees, ALMOST 90 degrees.
McEnroe and Tomic don't, so would you choose to copy them?
It's the angle that allows the pronation to increase racket head speed.
Pistol grip gives you almost no added speed from pronation.
 

Dimcorner

Professional
I will amend my statement in that it's not a full on hammer grip. I do have a VERY small gap between my index finger and the rest, but it is no where near as it was before.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
I will amend my statement in that it's not a full on hammer grip. I do have a VERY small gap between my index finger and the rest, but it is no where near as it was before.

thats what I'm trying to do. Make it something in between.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Now that looks smooth, quick, and very nice.
Next, try tossing the racket lower than 45 degrees, so it goes more out than up.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
Now that looks smooth, quick, and very nice.
Next, try tossing the racket lower than 45 degrees, so it goes more out than up.

I thought I am trying to ingrain the feeling of throwing the racquet UPWARDS? Am I wrong? Why toss it more out than up?
 
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