Struggling to shift serve grip from Forehand grip to continental grip. Suggestions?

ForumMember

Hall of Fame
I have been playing Tennis for few years and developed game myself without any kind of coaching and lessons.
Over a period of time developed a reasonably well forehand and lately started to manage crosscourt rallies from my back-hand (a double handed one). However my Achilles heels remain my serve which in all of my playing colleagues's opinion way too inferior to the rest of my game. The reason I have been told is I can't be any better in serveice with an eastern forehand grip serve that I use as of now. In my current serve I had started to putting a bit of pace and had developed a technique where I would start with bent knees and then unbend my knees and whole of my body would recoil to give momentum to my serve. But all of this to no avail, people said, until you change your grip.

So now I am trying to serve with a continental grip but with disastrous results. My game's whole flow is disrupted and impacting even my return game as I always have that continental grip weighing in mind. Problems I have faced are as below.

1. It just seems impossible to put any kind of power from that awkward angle. This is probably because I had developed a technique where I was putting power from my wrist and I don't think you can put any power from your wrist in this grip. Wrist has to be used just to give direction to ball. Power has to come from shoulder which continental grip facilitates better than other grips. Is that right analysis?

2. All I am able to hit some slice serves from deuce courts going wide out to the right of returner. I just can't hit a flat racket. Is this because of wrong timing of pronation?

3. I am finding it slightly easier to hit a serve from ad court (I am right hander). is this natural with continental grip?

4. I think I am facing more towards the net than I should in case of continental grip. Does that affect your delivery.

5. Last I feel I should just time my pronation with lots of practice. Only than i should try to do it in games?

Lastly should I just ditch this continental grip this and go back to refine my old serve further??

Any advice is appreciated as my whole game is going in tatters :-(
 
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bateman

New User
Hey, I went through a very similar process around 6 months a go. Short answer: absolutely, being able to hit a flat serve with correct pronation is a huge step forward, it will also enable you develop kick and slice serves to a much higher level also.

Timing and getting the feel for pronation and the easy power it gives should be your first step IMO, if you don't want to go to a pro/coach then videos like this offer some nice tipes / drills:

The drill that helped me the most was just hitting the ball in front of me at the floor using pronation / shoulder rotation on the service line, literally right at the floor 4ft in front of me. I then worked my target forward really slowly, maybe 5ft at a time keeping the pronation feeling until i was hitting into the service box on the other side of the net. Identifying when your hitting flat and when your adding too much slice is really important at that stage, which is why I suggest going to a pro/coach for tuition, you can then spend the many hours required on your own with the knowledge of what right and wrong about each time you contact the ball.

Ad court flat serves will be easier at first, if you have problems hitting angles like T on the Ad side or out wide on the deuce, turning yourself towards the net will help you learn the contact point for that. Eventually you'll be able to discover that more shoulder rotation or a slightly different contact point will allow you to hit those angles.
 

ForumMember

Hall of Fame
Hey, I went through a very similar process around 6 months a go. Short answer: absolutely, being able to hit a flat serve with correct pronation is a huge step forward, it will also enable you develop kick and slice serves to a much higher level also.

Timing and getting the feel for pronation and the easy power it gives should be your first step IMO, if you don't want to go to a pro/coach then videos like this offer some nice tipes / drills:

The drill that helped me the most was just hitting the ball in front of me at the floor using pronation / shoulder rotation on the service line, literally right at the floor 4ft in front of me. I then worked my target forward really slowly, maybe 5ft at a time keeping the pronation feeling until i was hitting into the service box on the other side of the net. Identifying when your hitting flat and when your adding too much slice is really important at that stage, which is why I suggest going to a pro/coach for tuition, you can then spend the many hours required on your own with the knowledge of what right and wrong about each time you contact the ball.

Ad court flat serves will be easier at first, if you have problems hitting angles like T on the Ad side or out wide on the deuce, turning yourself towards the net will help you learn the contact point for that. Eventually you'll be able to discover that more shoulder rotation or a slightly different contact point will allow you to hit those angles.

Thanks Mate. It's comforting to know that it is natural course of progression in unlearning forehand server and learning continental grip serve. I'll go through this video. thanks for sharing.
 

rkelley

Hall of Fame
Stick with the continental. Every pro (male and female) use it, and they hit the ball fairly well.

The reason to use the cont grip serve is that you can hit it flat and with spin. The flat serve will have a higher contact point and also will not telegraph the serve's location. The spin serves you can hit vary from slice, top spin, top/slice (combo of the first two), and American twist. The topspin and top/slice serves are key to hitting a good second serve, and you can't hit those with an E. fh grip.

Since you're starting from an E. fh grip, the first thing I'd tell you is to turn your body about 90 degrees CW (assuming right handed) from where you were serving with your old E. fh grip. The use of the wrist and forearm in a cont grip serve is really different than the E. fh. Don't think about flexing your wrist. Instead think about swinging the edge of the racquet at the ball like you're going to cut the ball in half with the edge of the racquet. As the racquet is coming up to the ball allow (not force) the racquet's face to turn into the ball. People talk about pronation of the forearm, but really most of that racquet face turning is happening from your upper arm (it's call internal shoulder rotation, ISR, don't worry about it). A small angle between the racquet and the forearm accentuate the racquet face turn and adds considerable power.

Go to a wall and do it slow and easy. If it doesn't feel comfortable you're doing something wrong. You might want to go get a lesson on this. There's not really a lot of variation in a good serve swing technique. Any decent pro should be able to show you what to do.
 

SinjinCooper

Hall of Fame
Stand up. Make a fist, and stick your thumb out. Now raise your arm straight up over your head.

Which way does your thumb naturally want to point? Which is to say, which direction is it facing when you feel the least resistance or tightness in your shoulder joint?

If your body is like almost every other body on earth, the thumb probably naturally wants to rotate and point backwards. This is the same direction a tennis racquet will stick out of your hand when you hold it. The thing that makes the forehand grip feel so natural for beginners is that this is the grip you need to use to hold a racquet overhead like this, swing it forward, and have its strings facing the target as it meets the ball.

Now, keep the arm extended overhead, and the thumb out, and slowly lower the arm down towards your side. Before you move it very far, if you keep the thumb pointed backwards, you're going to feel a lot of discomfort in the shoulder.

Which way does the thumb want to point naturally as you lower the arm? With closed fist, and thumb extended, where do you have to point the thumb to relieve the tightness as you approach the top position of the Vitruvian Man?

leonardo.jpg


You need to allow it to rotate forward, so that it's pointing up. The result is that a tennis racquet held in the hand, and forced to hit the ball in this position needs a different grip to have its strings facing the target. The grip that achieves it is the continental grip.

Over there is where you need to be swinging the racquet when you serve. That's where the arm goes in a good throwing or serving motion. Not directly over your head. And once you're swinging through that "slot," it becomes difficult to even meet the ball with a forehand grip.

Beginners tend to think of the serve as happening overhead, while you're standing straight up, so you can reach as high as possible. But that's not how you serve or throw. You do it like the Vitruvian Man, except with the shoulders tilted so the arm is pointing upward.

ten_g_isner_300.jpg


Understanding that is the first step toward breaking the forehand service grip habit the safe and natural way. Put more space between the arm and the ear when you serve.
 
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SinjinCooper

Hall of Fame
And just to take the Vitruvian analogy a bit further, when you're in that position, and you rotate the arm to point the thumb backwards, you feel the shoulder tighten uncomfortably. That's external shoulder rotation. When you let that tension go, and the thumb springs back upwards, that's internal shoulder rotation. And it's that force -- that happens quite naturally and all on its own if you relax -- that allows the racquet to whip so quickly through this particular arm slot. That's what accounts for what most players think of as the "pronation" of the racquet arm. As you swing that way, the racquet (thumb) moves from pointing backwards to pointing up, and ultimately to pointing forward.
 

ForumMember

Hall of Fame
Stick with the continental. Every pro (male and female) use it, and they hit the ball fairly well.

The reason to use the cont grip serve is that you can hit it flat and with spin. The flat serve will have a higher contact point and also will not telegraph the serve's location. The spin serves you can hit vary from slice, top spin, top/slice (combo of the first two), and American twist. The topspin and top/slice serves are key to hitting a good second serve, and you can't hit those with an E. fh grip.

Since you're starting from an E. fh grip, the first thing I'd tell you is to turn your body about 90 degrees CW (assuming right handed) from where you were serving with your old E. fh grip. The use of the wrist and forearm in a cont grip serve is really different than the E. fh. Don't think about flexing your wrist. Instead think about swinging the edge of the racquet at the ball like you're going to cut the ball in half with the edge of the racquet. As the racquet is coming up to the ball allow (not force) the racquet's face to turn into the ball. People talk about pronation of the forearm, but really most of that racquet face turning is happening from your upper arm (it's call internal shoulder rotation, ISR, don't worry about it). A small angle between the racquet and the forearm accentuate the racquet face turn and adds considerable power.

Go to a wall and do it slow and easy. If it doesn't feel comfortable you're doing something wrong. You might want to go get a lesson on this. There's not really a lot of variation in a good serve swing technique. Any decent pro should be able to show you what to do.

This is a post I can very well relate to. I was trying to flex my wrist and in process wrist was going backwards leaving me in almost impossible position to put an force. I tried few hits with the way you suggested, swinging racket with frame of racket just perpendicular to the net (strings of the racket parallel to my ear) and just before meeting point opening face of the racket clockwise so that frame of racket is almost parallel to net. I tried to keep my wrist locked for forward and backward movement, but allowing sideways movement (pronation). I think if I could get rid of my habit of wrist movement and rely completely on the swing of racket to impart momentum on the ball it would be good progress. I have to keep wrist locked so lower arm and palm becomes single unit.
 

ForumMember

Hall of Fame
Stand up. Make a fist, and stick your thumb out. Now raise your arm straight up over your head.

Which way does your thumb naturally want to point? Which is to say, which direction is it facing when you feel the least resistance or tightness in your shoulder joint?

If your body is like almost every other body on earth, the thumb probably naturally wants to rotate and point backwards. This is the same direction a tennis racquet will stick out of your hand when you hold it. The thing that makes the forehand grip feel so natural for beginners is that this is the grip you need to use to hold a racquet overhead like this, swing it forward, and have its strings facing the target as it meets the ball.

Now, keep the arm extended overhead, and the thumb out, and slowly lower the arm down towards your side. Before you move it very far, if you keep the thumb pointed backwards, you're going to feel a lot of discomfort in the shoulder.

Which way does the thumb want to point naturally as you lower the arm? With closed fist, and thumb extended, where do you have to point the thumb to relieve the tightness as you approach the top position of the Vitruvian Man?

leonardo.jpg


You need to allow it to rotate forward, so that it's pointing up. The result is that a tennis racquet held in the hand, and forced to hit the ball in this position needs a different grip to have its strings facing the target. The grip that achieves it is the continental grip.

Over there is where you need to be swinging the racquet when you serve. That's where the arm goes in a good throwing or serving motion. Not directly over your head. And once you're swinging through that "slot," it becomes difficult to even meet the ball with a forehand grip.

Beginners tend to think of the serve as happening overhead, while you're standing straight up, so you can reach as high as possible. But that's not how you serve or throw. You do it like the Vitruvian Man, except with the shoulders tilted to the arm is pointing upward.

ten_g_isner_300.jpg


Understanding that is the first step toward breaking the forehand service grip habit the safe and natural way. Put more space between the arm and the ear when you serve.
thanks for responding. there are lot of details in the post, i am trying to understand all the steps you mentioned here :).
 

Friedman Whip

Professional
If you are facing at all toward the net you are not positioned correctly. Also, you may want to try more of a 'modified' continental grip. That is, with your heel pad smack on bevel 2 and your right index knuckle on the ridge between bevel 2 and bevel 3. This should make the transition a little easier. But nobody ever said it was supposed to be easy. Stick it out. It will eventually make you look (and play) better.
 
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10isMaestro

Semi-Pro
A very simple tip:

People who use an eastern grip seem to act as though they had to be facing their target and swing at their target with their arm.

The best way to fix that habit is to exaggerate the reasons for a more backhand leaning grip on the serve. Literally stand with your non hitting shoulder pointing your target and serve slowly without allowing yourself ANY chance to turn your shoulders. This way, only backhand leaning grips makes sense for serving. It also only make sense to swing your arm away from your target.

It is useful because, on real serves, you don't get to face your target with your chest until well after contact. It also makes an eastern grip very uncomfortable -- you being sideways mean you will want to rotate the strings towards you by shifting your grip toward a continental so you get a clean contact.
 

ForumMember

Hall of Fame
A very simple tip:

People who use an eastern grip seem to act as though they had to be facing their target and swing at their target with their arm.

The best way to fix that habit is to exaggerate the reasons for a more backhand leaning grip on the serve. Literally stand with your non hitting shoulder pointing your target and serve slowly without allowing yourself ANY chance to turn your shoulders. This way, only backhand leaning grips makes sense for serving. It also only make sense to swing your arm away from your target.

It is useful because, on real serves, you don't get to face your target with your chest until well after contact. It also makes an eastern grip very uncomfortable -- you being sideways mean you will want to rotate the strings towards you by shifting your grip toward a continental so you get a clean contact.

Man, this tip did work like a charm :). Though serve with cont grip is still work in progress but I have started feeling how uncomfortable eastern grip becomes if you start sideways. I have started feeling comfortable with this new serve. Thanks :)
 

10isMaestro

Semi-Pro
Man, this tip did work like a charm :). Though serve with cont grip is still work in progress but I have started feeling how uncomfortable eastern grip becomes if you start sideways. I have started feeling comfortable with this new serve. Thanks :)

I can't take the whole credit, though. Tomaz from feeltennis.com suggests to do similar exercises to learn how to serve and Florian from onlinetennisinstructions.com once suggested the best way to fix a bad habit is to exaggerate things the other way around. I just thought combining both tips was a good idea.
 
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