Success Story, by Lew Hoad

[urban]

Only problem is, that is not true. Hoad never had 13 tour match wins on grass in January 1963, i am not sure if, Burnie and Ceelong, 2 of Hoads 8 tour wins in January 1963, were on grass. Could be but not sure, difficult to prove. Most of the local clubs in Australia had grass courts, also in Queensland. Grass was the normal surface in Australia. Some farmers had antbed courts in their backyards, for their private hitting. I found some years ago an article about tour matches at the fine location Waarrnambool in 1966, and the pros said, that the grass was better than at Melbourne.

And even the 9-2 balance in grass tournaments, which you seem to accept, contradicts all your earlier false numbers. OK, i know, the only prestigious tournaments were those won by Hoad in 1959 (Hoad won zero grass tourneys 1963-1967), and only Hoad won grass matches, in the many other lost matches, the grass was painted blue or so.

 

[NoMercy]

In 1963 Hoad d. Laver on grass 10-1.

5-0 in Australia (2-0 on clay, 1-0 on cement the other 3 matches).
2-1 In England before the tournaments (0-1 on clay, 1-0 plus a draw indoors the other 3 matches)
3-0 in England after the tournaments (1-0 indoors the other one)

In 1964 NZ Hoad has one win vs. Laver on grass during the NZ tour and one loss in a not sanctioned match.

 

[urban]

Good tho hear from You, No Mercy. Now we can discuss earnestly. Interesting is the Queensland tour 1964. Andrew Tas had an article with a 7-1 balance to Laver, Chris Jordan has a 6-1 hth documented. Now what was played on grass? Going by informations of Tennis Australia, Toowoomba, one place of the 1964 tour (as well as in 1967) , had certainly grass courts, the club hosted since 1901 an Eastern Gold Cup tournament, for a long time played on grass, now in modern era on real hard court. And Rockhampton, another side of the tour 1964 as well as 1967, had a Lawn Tennis tournament in the club, which had recently its 100 year jubilee. Chris Jordan gives another Laver tour win at Hobart in begin 1966.

 

[NoMercy]

Good tho hear from You, No Mercy. Now we can discuss earnestly. Interesting is the Queensland tour 1964. Andrew Tas had an article with a 7-1 balance to Laver, Chris Jordan has a 6-1 hth documented. Now what was played on grass? Going by informations of Tennis Australia, Toowoomba, one place of the 1964 tour (as well as in 1967) , had certainly grass courts, the club hosted since 1901 an Eastern Gold Cup tournament, for a long time played on grass, now in modern era on real hard court. And Rockhampton, another side of the tour 1964 as well as 1967, had a Lawn Tennis tournament in the club, which had recently its 100 year jubilee. Chris Jordan gives another Laver tour win at Hobart in begin 1966.

All stops of Queensland 64 tour were on Australian clay.
Except Innisfail (asphalt at Calendar Park) and obviously Brisbane.

Pro venue in Toowomba was always at James Street Courts. Often venue of Australian Hardcourt Champs and Queensland Hardcourt Champs.

 

[Dan Lobb]

Only problem is, that is not true. Hoad never had 13 tour match wins on grass in January 1963, i am not sure if, Burnie and Ceelong, 2 of Hoads 8 tour wins in January 1963, were on grass. Could be but not sure, difficult to prove. Most of the local clubs in Australia had grass courts, also in Queensland. Grass was the normal surface in Australia. Some farmers had antbed courts in their backyards, for their private hitting. I found some years ago an article about tour matches at the fine location Waarrnambool in 1966, and the pros said, that the grass was better than at Melbourne.

And even the 9-2 balance in grass tournaments, which you seem to accept, contradicts all your earlier false numbers. OK, i know, the only prestigious tournaments were those won by Hoad in 1959 (Hoad won zero grass tourneys 1963-1967), and only Hoad won grass matches, in the many other lost matches, the grass was painted blue or so.

Let me refer you to the actual history of the time, supported by statements of Laver and Buchholz, both of whom were playing on that tour.

"Laver, in statements made in interviews from June 2017 and November 2019, claimed that after turning pro he lost the first 13 matches which he played against Hoad, although he did not specify these as all being part of the 1963 Australian tour. Buchholz (in 2007), who played the undercard on the tour, claimed that Hoad won 13 consecutive matches over Laver. In a book published in 2020, Laver stated "during that Australian tour, I played Lew eight times and he won every match".

References:

1. The Golden Era: The extraordinary 25 years when Australians ruled the tennis world, Rod Laver, 2020, p. 225
2. Peter Bodo (4 April 2007). "TMF: best of 5, all the time!". Tennis.com.
3. Stephen Towers (19 November 2019). ""A light shone down on me" The remarkable story of the 1969 Rod Laver Grand Slam". **********.
4. Martyn Herman (29 June 2017). "Laver says turning pro made him twice as good". Reuters.

 

[NoMercy]

Laver at the beginning of his US 63 tour was 2-19 in pro matches.
It’s literally reported everywhere all over the place.

https://www.newspapers.com/image/1247479170/?match=23&terms=laver%20rosewall%20hoad%20australia

0-8 and 2-4 in Australia vs. Hoad and Rosewall and 0-7 in NZ vs. Rosewall.

Every other numbers are just fake or fruit of fantasy and imagination.

 

[Dan Lobb]

I think that Laver and Buchholz knew what they were talking about, exhibiton matches happened regularly on the pro circuit.

There were even practice matches in Sydney before the Australian tour began, with a large invited audience. That was where Laver was "waxed" by Hoad, according to Buchholz, certainly not in the White City tour opener, which was a close match between Hoad and Laver.

 

[NoMercy]

When I talked to Buchholz a couple of years ago he didn’t even remember that he (Buchholz) played a tournament in Lourenco Marques in 1968.
Not to mention where he played during his 1964 Africa trip.

Laver himself reported multiple incorrect scores, venues, dates on his own autobiography.

People tend to forget things that happened 50/60 years before. Or not remember them clearly.

 

[Dan Lobb]

When I talked to Buchholz a couple of years ago he didn’t even remember that he (Buchholz) played a tournament in Lourenco Marques in 1968.
Not to mention where he played during his 1964 Africa trip.

Laver himself reported multiple incorrect scores, venues, dates on his own autobiography.

People tend to forget things that happened 50/60 years before. Or not remember them clearly.

Laver repeated the 13-straight score many times over an almost thirty-year period, never changing the numbers. That indicates his own certainty on the numbers.

Laver also indicated his awareness that the formal Australian tour was 8 matches. There was no confusion for him on this.

It was not 50/60 years, but about 30 or less, you got that period wrong.

 

[urban]

In his first autobriography Winng Tennis, from 1964, Rod Laver wrote exactly about his intitial 8 losses to Haod and his 2-11 score to Rosewall at the begin of 1963. His co-writer was Jack Pollard, who also wrote Hoads autobiography some years earlier.

 

[Dan Lobb]

In his first autobriography Winng Tennis, from 1964, Rod Laver wrote exactly about his intitial 8 losses to Haod and his 2-11 score to Rosewall at the begin of 1963. His co-writer was Jack Pollard, who also wrote Hoads autobiography some years earlier.

Laver was aware that the official Australian tour was 8 matches, but that is not what we are discussing here. Laver also claimed, repeatedly for over a more than thirty year period, that there were about 5 exhibition matches during that same time period, and there were certainly opportunities in the tour schedule to do that.

Buchholz saw all of them, as he played the undercard series. A witness constitutes legal evidence.

That was fairly typical for the pro tours. The tour matches did not align with the total hth matches for a season.

 

[NoMercy]

A witness that he doesn’t even remember that himself played a tournament in Lourenco Marques.
It should be a very particular country to not be forgotten.
I would not bet my life on his memory.

Anyway, talks are pointless.
All over the newspapers of the day of the match and before it’s reported Hoad and Laver never met before.

And honestly, how could have they?
Laver was in Brisbane until the 30th of December. Then went home, then arrived in Sydney on Wednesday the 2nd and sign the contract in the afternoon.

So basically he had like 2 days to play these legendary 5 exhibition, who knows where because there are no reports anywhere (and yes, also the “exhibitions” were reported on newspapers). Because on Saturday the 5th he played in White City against Hoad.

 

[Dan Lobb]

A witness that he doesn’t even remember that himself played a tournament in Lourenco Marques it should be a very particular country to not be forgotten.
I would not bet my life on his memory.

Anyway, talks are pointless.
All over the newspapers of the day of the match and before it’s reported Hoad and Laver never met before.

And honestly, how could have they?
Laver was in Brisbane until the 30th of December. Then went home, then arrived in Sydney on Wednesday the 2nd and sign the contract in the afternoon.

So basically he had like 2 days to play these legendary 5 exhibition, who knows where because there are no reports anywhere (and yes, also the “exhibitions” were reported on newspapers). Because on Saturday the 5th he played in White City against Hoad.

With all due respect to Laurenco Marques, I have never heard of the place. However, if you are talking about the world pro debut series for Rod Laver in which I played the undercard, I think that I would have no difficulty in remembering that, especially if my recollections were in alignment with Laver himself.

So they had a couple of days to play exhibition matches in Sydney, where Laver was "waxed" in the first match (this was obviously not the tour opening match, which was a close match), plus some extended breaks during the Australian tour schedule.

There are only three reported matches in the Australian tour between Laver and Hoad for the first two and a half weeks in January. And a six-day gap from the 18th to the 24th. Lots of time there for five exhibitions.

 

[NoMercy]

With all due respect to Laurenco Marques, I have never heard of the place. However, if you are talking about the world pro debut series for Rod Laver in which I played the undercard, I think that I would have no difficulty in remembering that, especially if my recollections were in alignment with Laver himself.

So they had a couple of days to play exhibition matches in Sydney, where Laver was "waxed" in the first match (this was obviously not the tour opening match, which was a close match), plus some extended breaks during the Australian tour schedule.

There are only three reported matches in the Australian tour for the first two and a half weeks in January. And a six-day gap from the 18th to the 24th. Lots of time there for exhibitions.

Can you post a picture of the sources?
But like a real screenshot of the page/pages that say what you are saying.
Otherwise, they are all BS

 

[Dan Lobb]

Can you post a picture of the sources?
But like a real screenshot of the page/pages that say what you are saying.
Otherwise, they are all BS

I already posted the sources from recent years. Two of them are linked, you know how to click on a link? The other two can be typed into your browser, you know what a browser is?

 

[NoMercy]

I already posted the sources from recent years. They are linked, you know how to click on a link?

I wanna see the page where they say that.
Are you not able to take a screenshot?

Or even post the link of that very page.
I’m curious to read it.

 

[Dan Lobb]

I wanna see the page where they say that.
Are you not able to take a screenshot?

Or even post the link of that very page.
I’m curious to read it.

I gave the links above for two of them, can you click on a link?

The others you can put into your browser. Not difficult.

 

[NoMercy]

I wanna see some pictures of the sources that say this very thing:
“ Laver also claimed, repeatedly for over a more than thirty year period, that there were about 5 exhibition matches during that same time period, and there were certainly opportunities in the tour schedule to do that.”

If he repeated for over 30 years about these exhibitions, there must be a piece of paper to take a picture at.

 

[NoMercy]

Ok, I see.
No pictures, no screenshots, no pdf, nothing.
Just some random BS.

 

[Dan Lobb]

I wanna see some pictures of the sources that say this very thing:
“ Laver also claimed, repeatedly for over a more than thirty year period, that there were about 5 exhibition matches during that same time period, and there were certainly opportunities in the tour schedule to do that.”

If he repeated for over 30 years about these exhibitions, there must be a piece of paper to take a picture at.

Laver often talked about the 8 matches on the Australian tour and he often mentioned the 13 total matches.

I did my own research on the gaps in the tour schedule which allowed the room for exhibition matches, I take credit for that. What made you think that Laver had anything to do with that?

I don't see how that could be any clearer.

Can you still not click on a link? This is unbelievable.

 

[NoMercy]

So let’s see this article from Peter Bodo.
Apart that it’s Peter Bodo himself to write (in 2007, so 44 years later) and Buchholz, but whatever.

“ On the night before the tour launched, they had a little party. Hoad got into the beer, and pretty soon Buccholz and Hoad's wife, Jenny, were loading Hoad into a car at 4 AM, in order to get him home. Hoad got up at 7 the next morning and went for a long run on Sydney's famous Bondi beach. Then he had a practice hit and went out and waxed tour newbie Laver - it was the first of 13 consecutive wins for Hoad over Laver.”

So the tour opener (according to Bodo) was the very first match between them and it was the waxed match. But wait, you said they played before than that and the tour opener was not a waxed. So Bodo is wrong?

 

[Dan Lobb]

So let’s see this article from Peter Bodo.
Apart that it’s Peter Bodo himself to write (in 2007, so 44 years later) and Buchholz, but whatever.

“ On the night before the tour launched, they had a little party. Hoad got into the beer, and pretty soon Buccholz and Hoad's wife, Jenny, were loading Hoad into a car at 4 AM, in order to get him home. Hoad got up at 7 the next morning and went for a long run on Sydney's famous Bondi beach. Then he had a practice hit and went out and waxed tour newbie Laver - it was the first of 13 consecutive wins for Hoad over Laver.”

So the tour opener (according to Bodo) was the very first match between them and it was the waxed match. But wait, you said they played before than that and the tour opener was not a waxed. So Bodo is wrong?

Where does he claim that the first match was the tour opener? Laver was not "waxed" in the tour opener.

 

[NoMercy]

Where does he claim that the first match was the tour opener? Laver was not "waxed" in the tour opener.

“The night before the tour launched”
What does it mean this?
When was the tour launched?

 

[Dan Lobb]

“The night before the tour launched”
What does it mean this?
When was the tour launched?

The "launch" was not the first of the eight matches. They needed to help Laver get up to speed with some practice matches. The first crowd was an invited group of people in the tennis world.

Laver was not "waxed" in the first match of the tour, it was a close match.

The first match of the Australian tour was at Sydney on the Saturday January 5, 1963. A long, close four sets.

Hoad and Laver were at Sydney and signed contracts on January 2.

 

[NoMercy]

The "launch" was not the first of the eight matches. They needed to help Laver get up to speed with some practice matches. The first crowd was an invited group of people in the tennis world.

Source?
Do you have another Peter Bodo saying this? I would like to see a picture of this.

And I’m still waiting for the source of Rod Laver saying “he was aware that the official Australian tour was 8 matches, but that is not what we are discussing here. Laver also claimed, repeatedly for over a more than thirty year period, that there were about 5 exhibition matches during that same time period”

There must be a piece of paper saying this!
In over 30 years of repeating it.

 

[Dan Lobb]

Source?
Do you have another Peter Bodo saying this? I would like to see a picture of this.

And I’m still waiting for the source of Rod Laver saying “he was aware that the official Australian tour was 8 matches, but that is not what we are discussing here. Laver also claimed, repeatedly for over a more than thirty year period, that there were about 5 exhibition matches during that same time period”

There must be a piece of paper saying this!
In over 30 years of repeating it.

Laver confirmed in interviews from 1993 to the present day both the 8 match Australian tour and the total match number of 13. That was common in the old pro era, where the match totals did not correspond to the tour totals, They played something called exhibitions.

I was able to confirm that there were plenty of gaps in the schedule for the exhibitions, I take full credit for that. Laver was not involved.
There are only three reported matches between Hoad and Laver in the Australian tour for the first two and a half weeks in January. And a six-day gap from the 18th to the 24th. Lots of time there for five exhibitions. Two days in Sydney before the tour opened, as well as four days after the Sydney matches were available.

Hoad and Laver were at Sydney and signed contracts on January 2. Presumably, the party referred to in Bodo was on the evening of the 2nd, and the match the following day would have been on Jan. 3. The tour opener was at Sydney on Jan. 5.

 

[NoMercy]

Still no pictures of sources

 

[Dan Lobb]

Still no pictures of sources

You were given the links...click on them.

Some remarks from another thread.

From myself,

"In June, 1993, Laver was interviewed by R. Williams in the Independent and stated that he did not win against Hoad until "more than a dozen matches" had been played between the two players.
In the 1997 interview, he said " Hoad beat me in 14 straight matches..and this was at a time when he was supposedly no longer interested in tennis""This statement from "Kings of the Court", a 1997 DVD narrated by John Forsythe."

From Krosero,

"The piece is here: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...es-he-talked-to-richard-williams-1492771.html

To start with, he didn't win much. It took him two or three months and more than a dozen matches to beat the glamorous Hoad, who had turned pro after beating Rosewall in the 1956 Wimbledon final. "When he was in shape, Hoad was the most difficult. By the time I turned pro, he'd lost the desire to be a day-in, day-out competitor. He'd had a lot of injuries. But he said to himself that I'd won the grand slam, whereas in 1956 he'd won three grand slam tournaments - he'd lost the final of the fourth to Rosewall. To an extent, he was representing the pros. It wasn't exactly a vendetta, but it was a very concentrated effort on his part. And on Rosewall's, too.""